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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. |
On February 26 2013 06:54 ledarsi wrote:
Hellbats are already Biological, and they certainly don't play like mech should. The only thing moving it to the Barracks does is restore the natural order.
Encouraging the current Hellbat is encouraging more bio play- not mech.
Not...really. It is a mech AND bio unit. The whole point is that it helps mech be better and helps Terran bio deal with mass zealot/ling which they've never had a real counter to while P and Z do.
It would be nice if the hellbat upgrades were either infantry OR mech, whichever is higher of the two so that it can actually work well with both compositions. This is also the only way I see removing the biological trait, because right now hellbats in a bio comp are going to be way behind the upgrades of the marines and marauders. The healing is what gives them some usefulness even if behind on upgrades. But since I don't see them doing that upgrade change, they need to keep it bio and mech.
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im not surprised at all. blizzard took little to no time at all being prompt with their changes for terran, but still ignore other aspects of the game. how typical of them and i saw it coming from a mile away. they havent changed one bit from wol, what a disappointment, no point in buying hots. its going to be a waste of money... not surprised to see 14% of TL community does not want to buy hots..
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Still op in late game.
Where is warhound at?
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The whole point of having 6 different armor/weapon paths were that terran units are supposed to be dominant in unique situations. That's why Terran always had the extra upgrade until they combined armor for air/vehicle. Vikings are just too weak and mech AA is not strong. So now they have to go to this extent and combine an upgrade path. Hell, now we are talking about combining another by giving a unit both bio AND mech upgrade.
Something isn't right. It just doesn't sit well. Why not do the same with Vikings if that were the case? Then you can keep the extra armor upgrade that air units need. I hate when they have to cut crap out completely to balance something. Something needs to be done. Terran is supposed to be about linear play. You can't switch to a bio ball after upgrading to 1/2 mech for half the game once your opponent starts going mass hydras or charge zealots. Add the hellbat to bio and keep him there, with a tech lab requirement. Or buff the helion so it is more of a meat shield. Still doesn't solve mech anti air but that's where merging the upgrade in the armory helps, when in fact I would have increased the upgrade time for the other races or nerfed them somehow instead of going this route.
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On February 26 2013 06:54 ledarsi wrote:
Hellbats are already Biological, and they certainly don't play like mech should. The only thing moving it to the Barracks does is restore the natural order.
Encouraging the current Hellbat is encouraging more bio play- not mech.
Especially after the last patch hellbats are used way less with bio. They actually work very well with tank/thor armies, being slow moving units that creates a buffer for them to deal massive DPS.
I don't even know what "restoring the natural order" is even supposed to mean, but if it means making mech extinct because adding firebats makes more sense to some random guy on the forums, I'm against it.
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Blizzard didn't wanted to reintroduce the Firebat and/or the Goliath simply because they were BW units Both these units were needed, one to fight against mass zerglings and zealots and the other to be an all around anti-air unit. Moreover, Blizzard wanted to promote mech play in Hots.
To solve some of these problems, Blizzard created this abomination called the Hellbat also know as the Messbat or the Frankenbat. It plays like a bio unit, it can be healed like a bio unit, it comes from a factory but i can turn into biological, it occupies variable cargo space, it can transform but it only benefits from an upgrade in a certain form, etc.
It is a complete mess right now. I have to agree with the opinion of many others in this thread, given that there's no time to rework this expansion, assuming this unit as a Firebat would be a better solution.
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On February 26 2013 10:47 Warpish wrote:
Blizzard didn't wanted to reintroduce the Firebat and/or the Goliath simply because they were BW units Both these units were needed, one to fight against mass zerglings and zealots and the other to be an all around anti-air unit. Moreover, Blizzard wanted to promote mech play in Hots.
To solve some of these problems, Blizzard created this abomination called the Hellbat also know as the Messbat or the Frankenbat. It plays like a bio unit, it can be healed like a bio unit, it comes from a factory but i can turn into biological, it occupies variable cargo space, it can transform but it only benefits from an upgrade in a certain form, etc.
It is a complete mess right now. I have to agree with the opinion of many others in this thread, given that there's no time to rework this expansion, assuming this unit as a Firebat would be a better solution.
They could have simply adjusted the pitiful damage of the Siege Tank (against non-armored units) upwards and mech would have been fine. Then they could have done the same for the anti-air damage of the Thor. They did neither of these and introduced new and powerful flyers for both other races, so any claim by Dustin Browder that they want to make mech viable is just a flat out lie.
With this expansion - and the whole SC2 bonus damage design - there are far too many units available to each race and they are too specialized in what they do. This adds too much randomness and build-order-wins into the game and also makes it harder and harder to balance because the number of variables increases with every new unit and bonus damage type. "Specialized solutions" - like the specific adjustments for the Battle Hellion, Widow Mine and Spore Crawler - are the only thing which can save them by now ... we just have to live with it and wait for the big crash (probably after the next expansion when they will have to introduce even more ridiculous stuff to make things work).
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On February 26 2013 10:47 Warpish wrote:
Blizzard didn't wanted to reintroduce the Firebat and/or the Goliath simply because they were BW units Both these units were needed, one to fight against mass zerglings and zealots and the other to be an all around anti-air unit. Moreover, Blizzard wanted to promote mech play in Hots.
To solve some of these problems, Blizzard created this abomination called the Hellbat also know as the Messbat or the Frankenbat. It plays like a bio unit, it can be healed like a bio unit, it comes from a factory but i can turn into biological, it occupies variable cargo space, it can transform but it only benefits from an upgrade in a certain form, etc.
It is a complete mess right now. I have to agree with the opinion of many others in this thread, given that there's no time to rework this expansion, assuming this unit as a Firebat would be a better solution.
Copy-pasting BW units is lazy design in the expansions. It would be completely unacceptable to the world outside of the 3 people who think it is "smrt" on TL.net.
That said, Terran did not need either of the things you specify, especially your hilarious suggestion that they need help to do with mass zerglings or zealots. Hellions with blue flame OBLITERATE Zealots and Zerglings. Literally like 20 Hellions vs 20 Zealots or 80 Zerglings and you come out with 20 Hellions alive.
The Battle Hellion was actually a good idea. I have no idea why they thought it needed the biological tag though, when it worked perfectly in its Terran Mech role of absorbing damage that Hellions could not handle.
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Hellions with blue flame OBLITERATE Zealots and Zerglings
Yes but the goal is not to obliterate zealot and zerglings the goal is to tank them to protect your fragile tank.... So he is right saying terran needed something to "fight" not to kite zealot and zerglings
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On February 26 2013 10:47 Warpish wrote:
Blizzard didn't wanted to reintroduce the Firebat and/or the Goliath simply because they were BW units Both these units were needed, one to fight against mass zerglings and zealots and the other to be an all around anti-air unit. Moreover, Blizzard wanted to promote mech play in Hots.
To solve some of these problems, Blizzard created this abomination called the Hellbat also know as the Messbat or the Frankenbat. It plays like a bio unit, it can be healed like a bio unit, it comes from a factory but i can turn into biological, it occupies variable cargo space, it can transform but it only benefits from an upgrade in a certain form, etc.
It is a complete mess right now. I have to agree with the opinion of many others in this thread, given that there's no time to rework this expansion, assuming this unit as a Firebat would be a better solution.
Terrans needed a unit that help protect tanks, buffer for them and did 'reasonable' damage against zealots. Hellbats give T a fighting chance with mech. Having goliath or hellbats back will not address the problem, since mass immortals will kill goliaths as fast as anything, and firebats just mean mech becomes bio-mech instead, which is not the solution blizzard is looking for.
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they should just remove the bio tag from hellbat and let them get the mech upg, it would make more sense overall, there is no point on promoting medivac usage in mech and they can still be usefull in bio play even without medivac heal due to their great damage and hp
and for god sake give mine manual detonation or target fire
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Dropships used to be viable in BW with mech play since positional play was heavily weighted. Like lots of them, considering the mobility was lacking for mech. But you could move formidable mech armies that way and plant them in a corner of your opponents base where they are buffered by the enemies own buildings. I can see why they'd want to synergize some medivac play with mech despite the massive gas cost. Plus the fact that armor upgrade is now merged. Trying to play devils advocate here, but this allows the mech army to be mobile.
The problem again in anti-air. If you have a reactored starport then you can pump medivac Viking or 3/4 Viking to medivac ratio to supplement your mech. But that means you are sacrificing Raven and Banshee if required, or just more base mech units, as Viking/Medivac is such a tax on resources.
I think you need a composition that will favor the mobility play vs brute force play. If you want deathball mech, you probably mass Thor/Bat/Raven/banshee. If you want mobility play, I don't know. Other than bio, you may want to feature Helion/Tank/Mine/Viking more heavily, to spend the gas evenly compared to Thor/Raven/Banshee. Tank drops do not seem to be as effective in SC2 as I never see them loaded up even to capture high ground.
Again, changes can work if used correctly. It's just not a game changer for mech with the changes to the other races.
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On February 26 2013 19:37 Rider517 wrote:
they should just remove the bio tag from hellbat and let them get the mech upg, it would make more sense overall, there is no point on promoting medivac usage in mech and they can still be usefull in bio play even without medivac heal due to their great damage and hp
and for god sake give mine manual detonation or target fire Mines have target fire once they've been activated. You're welcome.
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On February 27 2013 00:23 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 19:37 Rider517 wrote:
they should just remove the bio tag from hellbat and let them get the mech upg, it would make more sense overall, there is no point on promoting medivac usage in mech and they can still be usefull in bio play even without medivac heal due to their great damage and hp
and for god sake give mine manual detonation or target fire Mines have target fire once they've been activated. You're welcome.
Yep, few people seem to know that. It's cool, because it requires actually more skill than a hold fire mode + target fire. You have to be there at the exact moment your mine triggers if you want to pick among the reachable targets.
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On February 27 2013 00:00 Blamajama wrote:
Dropships used to be viable in BW with mech play since positional play was heavily weighted. Like lots of them, considering the mobility was lacking for mech. But you could move formidable mech armies that way and plant them in a corner of your opponents base where they are buffered by the enemies own buildings. I can see why they'd want to synergize some medivac play with mech despite the massive gas cost. Plus the fact that armor upgrade is now merged. Trying to play devils advocate here, but this allows the mech army to be mobile.
The problem again in anti-air. If you have a reactored starport then you can pump medivac Viking or 3/4 Viking to medivac ratio to supplement your mech. But that means you are sacrificing Raven and Banshee if required, or just more base mech units, as Viking/Medivac is such a tax on resources.
I think you need a composition that will favor the mobility play vs brute force play. If you want deathball mech, you probably mass Thor/Bat/Raven/banshee. If you want mobility play, I don't know. Other than bio, you may want to feature Helion/Tank/Mine/Viking more heavily, to spend the gas evenly compared to Thor/Raven/Banshee. Tank drops do not seem to be as effective in SC2 as I never see them loaded up even to capture high ground.
Again, changes can work if used correctly. It's just not a game changer for mech with the changes to the other races.
indeed, if i want mobility bio is a better choice, if i go mech i would rather relay on positional play, going mech plus medivac to have mobility is a bit meh imo
On February 27 2013 00:23 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 19:37 Rider517 wrote:
they should just remove the bio tag from hellbat and let them get the mech upg, it would make more sense overall, there is no point on promoting medivac usage in mech and they can still be usefull in bio play even without medivac heal due to their great damage and hp
and for god sake give mine manual detonation or target fire Mines have target fire once they've been activated. You're welcome.
my bad, didn't notice that, but it's still hard for me to consider it a unit, it looks like movable static defense lol
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i think it's interesting the whole "steampunk" half mech-half bio shit hthey are forcing terrans into, but was there ever anything wrong with mech or marine tank? i thought marine tank was the most beautiful thing to ever watch. now there are no tanks. LOL, its bio ++ mines, because now terran have a way to deal with mass ling/bling amove without building a 3 supply gas sink with virtually zero utility vs other units. its sad to see the iconic siege tank so terrible in the new expansion, but i promise it was blizzard's direct intention. siege tanks are just too difficult to play against. they punish retardation and make people strategic, and blizzard knows they can't bank on their player base enjoying these dynamics
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I remember the days of retardation. A-moving some hydras or dragoons or marines into tank lines in BW. It was still fun though.
To the previous point, Marine/Tank not viable against toss. And I don't think it will be exclusive against zerg either with the new dark swarm thing they put in, plus the other abilities. Mech builds have to incorporate some sort of air support or Ghost support. Just like Bio needs air support. Can't be mutually exclusive anymore. That's probably a good thing.
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On February 26 2013 10:47 Warpish wrote:
Blizzard didn't wanted to reintroduce the Firebat and/or the Goliath simply because they were BW units Both these units were needed, one to fight against mass zerglings and zealots and the other to be an all around anti-air unit. Moreover, Blizzard wanted to promote mech play in Hots.
To solve some of these problems, Blizzard created this abomination called the Hellbat also know as the Messbat or the Frankenbat. It plays like a bio unit, it can be healed like a bio unit, it comes from a factory but i can turn into biological, it occupies variable cargo space, it can transform but it only benefits from an upgrade in a certain form, etc.
It is a complete mess right now. I have to agree with the opinion of many others in this thread, given that there's no time to rework this expansion, assuming this unit as a Firebat would be a better solution.
I couln't have said it better.
You could however extend much of this argument to the lurker vs. host debate. They did not want to put in the lurker, but they did not come up with something new either. Now we have this lurker/broodlord-hybrid that can attack while burrowed, but can't fly.
TBH, this expansion becomes rather silly. Yes Blizz it's SC2 and new units are nice. But hell, it's also SC2. Noone will hate you just because you stick to fan favorites. Especially not if they fit the design. Firebat > Hellbat all the way. There's no contest really.
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Sequels should be new games that stand alone. Not retreads that repeat the same patterns. That's just lazy, unimaginative game development. That said, I think SC2 has a lot of short comings and the nostalgia from Brood War is not going to save it. Blizzard has lost a lot of luster for me. Best they cash in with movie adaptations while they still have the huge fan base.
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On February 27 2013 04:31 Blamajama wrote:
Sequels should be new games that stand alone. Not retreads that repeat the same patterns. That's just lazy, unimaginative game development. That said, I think SC2 has a lot of short comings and the nostalgia from Brood War is not going to save it. Blizzard has lost a lot of luster for me. Best they cash in with movie adaptations while they still have the huge fan base.
I think most of "we want old units back" isn't just nostalgia (which does play a part in it) but rather what blizzard has done for the new units. If all the new units were fun, cool, and imaginative, people would probably want more of them.
Do you like the colossus over the reaver?
Do you like the roach over the bw hydralisk?
Do you like the swarm host over the lurker?
Do you like the hellion over the vulture?
I think blizzard got some of the new units right (Viking in TvT for instance, new reaper is fun and gives you something to do early game, Baneling provides awesome micro / spectator experience in ZvZ and ZvT, Blink stalker micro is cool to watch) but most of the new units in SC2 are rather boring and don't fit the races. Example would be the extremely beefy (125!? hp marauder / 145 hp roach) for terran and zergs.
I do think with time a lot of cool stuff can happen. Swarm Host has the potential to be really cool but a lot of people are already turned off over the "free units" thing (mostly because of those boring months of a shit ton of brood lords / infested terrans). The viper also has this potential too. But a lot of really cool stuff was cut from brood war, such as vultures would provided a great micro opportunity and had access to the spider mine (which defined pretty much every terran match-up). I don't think the hellion is nearly as cool as the vulture. Scourge being removed has removes micro potential.
If we had a new unit that replaced an old one, but was cool enough to make up for it, there would be less blame at blizzard. but a lot of the new units are just "dumb" down graded versions of their brood war counter-parts.
A big point here is a lot of units that did provide great micro experiences (whether watching or playing) were removed and replaced with an inferior product. Not all, but a lot.
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EPT
