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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. |
On February 24 2013 04:18 Alryk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 03:03 Big J wrote:On February 24 2013 02:41 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 23 2013 23:38 Big J wrote:You expect us to believe a 14.5 dps unit that moves at 2.81 (with upgrade) is the worst unit in the game.
Either you have no idea how to optimize their damage output beyond a-move, you use them unescorted or both.
Well, Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps 550HP/3armor unit with a 300damage blast (with upgrade) which additionally can fly as bad unit. You see how ridicolous such stuff sounds when you don't include how much those units cost or what they require? And you tell other people how immature their discussion style is... I didn't believe you'd resort to lying, Big J. I'll try to be civil. It should be read as:Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps range 6, 550HP/3 armor unit with 300 damage blast (with upgrade) every 125 seconds, vulnerablility to feedback spell and which additionally can fly as bad unit.
In any case on 4 bases, cost is not an issue, production rate is. Hahahahahaha.... lol. + Show Spoiler +Really hard to even know where to begin with responding to this bullshit. I know I shouldn't, it's not worth my time. But whatever, I'm in a good mood, can as well have some fun with this troll, So whenever someone describes a unit he has to point out every stat the unit has and every spell interaction? Yeah, what a lyer I am not mentioning every freaking thing that is true for the BC. Pssst, before someone says that hydralisks don't get a dusk/dawn sight bonus you really should mention it... Oh too late. I found out that you didn't mention it. You lyer! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! And to your "cost is no issue, production rate is". Well, if cost is no issue and you have 50scvs (so building production rate is 50), why don't you build 50starports to get the same production rate as a zerg? Of course cost is THE issue. Z and P have more production, because their infrastructure COSTS less. actually protoss infrastructure is more expensive. factory is 150/100, 190/100 if you count for scv build time. Robo facility is 200/100. But its really only 150/100 because Terran have mules to offset scvs building, and the minerals don't actually go away. a star port is also 150/100 I believe? Compared to a star gate bring 150/150. And how much is a fusion core? Fleet beacon is 300/200. An armory is 150/100 while a robotics bay is 200/200. And a ghost academy is 100/50 right? Vs a 100/200 templar archives, not to mention the need for a 150/100 twilight council. No need to mention barracks/gateway. edit: as a sky toss versus zerg: I think allowing blinding cloud to hit air or affect casters would be a wonderful idea personally. Does anybody else share it? I think it would definitely help balance out pvz, and I don't think needing skytoss is how to do it.
I see in you are counting SCV build times, what happens when you include separate upgrades for terran land units but not protoss ones? What about addons, how do they factor in?
I wonder when people will learn not to directly compare races in Starcraft.
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On February 24 2013 04:18 Alryk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 03:03 Big J wrote:On February 24 2013 02:41 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 23 2013 23:38 Big J wrote:You expect us to believe a 14.5 dps unit that moves at 2.81 (with upgrade) is the worst unit in the game.
Either you have no idea how to optimize their damage output beyond a-move, you use them unescorted or both.
Well, Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps 550HP/3armor unit with a 300damage blast (with upgrade) which additionally can fly as bad unit. You see how ridicolous such stuff sounds when you don't include how much those units cost or what they require? And you tell other people how immature their discussion style is... I didn't believe you'd resort to lying, Big J. I'll try to be civil. It should be read as:Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps range 6, 550HP/3 armor unit with 300 damage blast (with upgrade) every 125 seconds, vulnerablility to feedback spell and which additionally can fly as bad unit.
In any case on 4 bases, cost is not an issue, production rate is. Hahahahahaha.... lol. + Show Spoiler +Really hard to even know where to begin with responding to this bullshit. I know I shouldn't, it's not worth my time. But whatever, I'm in a good mood, can as well have some fun with this troll, So whenever someone describes a unit he has to point out every stat the unit has and every spell interaction? Yeah, what a lyer I am not mentioning every freaking thing that is true for the BC. Pssst, before someone says that hydralisks don't get a dusk/dawn sight bonus you really should mention it... Oh too late. I found out that you didn't mention it. You lyer! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! And to your "cost is no issue, production rate is". Well, if cost is no issue and you have 50scvs (so building production rate is 50), why don't you build 50starports to get the same production rate as a zerg? Of course cost is THE issue. Z and P have more production, because their infrastructure COSTS less. actually protoss infrastructure is more expensive. factory is 150/100, 190/100 if you count for scv build time. Robo facility is 200/100. But its really only 150/100 because Terran have mules to offset scvs building, and the minerals don't actually go away. a star port is also 150/100 I believe? Compared to a star gate bring 150/150. And how much is a fusion core? Fleet beacon is 300/200. An armory is 150/100 while a robotics bay is 200/200. And a ghost academy is 100/50 right? Vs a 100/200 templar archives, not to mention the need for a 150/100 twilight council. No need to mention barracks/gateway. edit: as a sky toss versus zerg: I think allowing blinding cloud to hit air or affect casters would be a wonderful idea personally. Does anybody else share it? I think it would definitely help balance out pvz, and I don't think needing skytoss is how to do it.
well, robo/SG is very similar or more expensive. But lategame extra Warpgate production is quite cheaper than barracks production:
Zealot: 100/0 28seconds --> spending: 3.57/0 per second
Stalker: 125/50 32seconds --> spending: 3.91/1.56 per second
Marine: 50/0 25seconds --> spending 2/0 per second
Marauder: 100/25 30seconds --> spending 3.33/0.83 per second
Basically you need to invest into a barracks and a reactor (200/50) to be able to spend a similar amount of money on marine production as 1 (sometimes chronoboosted) warpgate (150/0) provides in zealot production.
Unless Terran spends his money on ghosts and medivacs (which are really great to spend money on), Terran needs to invest more into infrastructure than Protoss to get the same amount of production. (of course this is not happening as barracks units beat gateway units cost for cost, so you don't need the same production. But just speaking possiblities, once P has the tech infrastructure like core, warpgate, twlight, templar archives, adding production is cheaper for toss than for terran. That's why we sometimes see those ridicolous amounts like 20+ warpgates for Protoss which Terran can only match with like 12barracks+addons)
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First, 150/150 is way to expensive, even 100/100 would maybe be too high just to transform, I mean Viking, Tanks, Thors can transform for free. Also now they can revert the cargo nerf.
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This unit is becoming ridiculous, and I've a hard time to believe that blizzard "forgot" to mention that uncalled buff in patch #15.
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On February 24 2013 03:53 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 03:06 Zelniq wrote:
Please note: i'm not saying lategame terran is imbalanced, that remains to be seen. I'm just saying that the way things seem right now, both terrans and zergs alike seem to think that it's pretty tough for zerg once terran gets those things. I'd imagine late game TvZ will only get better for zerg. It will take zergs learning how to properly use Vipers though. Even today in the GSTL Ragnarok had pretty poor viper control in mass engagements and only really used them for fun (chain fungaling medivacs). He only used blinding cloud twice in a mass engagement and seemingly forget about them about 3/4 ways through his match vs MMA.
Reminds me of infestor usage before and right after the queen buff. You had Zergs stating infestors just weren't strong enough, but would group them with their army (out front sometimes), throw a few fungals, and then suicide the infestors. We didn't even see infested terran tanking tank shells for 2-3 months. Likewise, we seem to be seeing a large amount of viper usage using blinding cloud then moving next to vikings, or running over a blinded position expecting insta-gg from the Terran.
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On February 24 2013 04:54 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 04:18 Alryk wrote:On February 24 2013 03:03 Big J wrote:On February 24 2013 02:41 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 23 2013 23:38 Big J wrote:You expect us to believe a 14.5 dps unit that moves at 2.81 (with upgrade) is the worst unit in the game.
Either you have no idea how to optimize their damage output beyond a-move, you use them unescorted or both.
Well, Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps 550HP/3armor unit with a 300damage blast (with upgrade) which additionally can fly as bad unit. You see how ridicolous such stuff sounds when you don't include how much those units cost or what they require? And you tell other people how immature their discussion style is... I didn't believe you'd resort to lying, Big J. I'll try to be civil. It should be read as:Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps range 6, 550HP/3 armor unit with 300 damage blast (with upgrade) every 125 seconds, vulnerablility to feedback spell and which additionally can fly as bad unit.
In any case on 4 bases, cost is not an issue, production rate is. Hahahahahaha.... lol. + Show Spoiler +Really hard to even know where to begin with responding to this bullshit. I know I shouldn't, it's not worth my time. But whatever, I'm in a good mood, can as well have some fun with this troll, So whenever someone describes a unit he has to point out every stat the unit has and every spell interaction? Yeah, what a lyer I am not mentioning every freaking thing that is true for the BC. Pssst, before someone says that hydralisks don't get a dusk/dawn sight bonus you really should mention it... Oh too late. I found out that you didn't mention it. You lyer! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! And to your "cost is no issue, production rate is". Well, if cost is no issue and you have 50scvs (so building production rate is 50), why don't you build 50starports to get the same production rate as a zerg? Of course cost is THE issue. Z and P have more production, because their infrastructure COSTS less. actually protoss infrastructure is more expensive. factory is 150/100, 190/100 if you count for scv build time. Robo facility is 200/100. But its really only 150/100 because Terran have mules to offset scvs building, and the minerals don't actually go away. a star port is also 150/100 I believe? Compared to a star gate bring 150/150. And how much is a fusion core? Fleet beacon is 300/200. An armory is 150/100 while a robotics bay is 200/200. And a ghost academy is 100/50 right? Vs a 100/200 templar archives, not to mention the need for a 150/100 twilight council. No need to mention barracks/gateway. edit: as a sky toss versus zerg: I think allowing blinding cloud to hit air or affect casters would be a wonderful idea personally. Does anybody else share it? I think it would definitely help balance out pvz, and I don't think needing skytoss is how to do it. I see in you are counting SCV build times, what happens when you include separate upgrades for terran land units but not protoss ones? What about addons, how do they factor in? I wonder when people will learn not to directly compare races in Starcraft.
Agreed. Though, there seems to be a lot of complaints from the other side of the fence of "It's only a 100 mineral unit!"
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Terran in HotS in high level still play the same way like WoL : Heavy bio. No evolution for Mech whether Hellbat got buffed or nerfed. Next more 2 years with bio for Terran
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United Kingdom12057 Posts
On February 24 2013 05:49 Porishan wrote:
Terran in HotS in high level still play the same way like WoL : Heavy bio. No evolution for Mech whether Hellbat got buffed or nerfed. Next more 2 years with bio for Terran
They still play bio as with the big teams not everyone (including their top players) switching to HoTS mech hasn't been being explored outside of the likes of Goody, Dragon and TheStC on ladder. Bio is still the go-to build currently as it's what everyone already knows how to play. I'm sure in a few weeks we'll see more meching pros in games.
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On February 24 2013 05:02 Big J wrote:
well, robo/SG is very similar or more expensive. But lategame extra Warpgate production is quite cheaper than barracks production:
Zealot: 100/0 28seconds --> spending: 3.57/0 per second
Stalker: 125/50 32seconds --> spending: 3.91/1.56 per second
Marine: 50/0 25seconds --> spending 2/0 per second
Marauder: 100/25 30seconds --> spending 3.33/0.83 per second
Basically you need to invest into a barracks and a reactor (200/50) to be able to spend a similar amount of money on marine production as 1 (sometimes chronoboosted) warpgate (150/0) provides in zealot production.
Unless Terran spends his money on ghosts and medivacs (which are really great to spend money on), Terran needs to invest more into infrastructure than Protoss to get the same amount of production. (of course this is not happening as barracks units beat gateway units cost for cost, so you don't need the same production. But just speaking possiblities, once P has the tech infrastructure like core, warpgate, twlight, templar archives, adding production is cheaper for toss than for terran. That's why we sometimes see those ridicolous amounts like 20+ warpgates for Protoss which Terran can only match with like 12barracks+addons)
Barracks production has to be crippled early game or SCV-pull allins are unbeatable. If Barracks converted minerals to marines at the rate gateways convert minerals to zealots then marine/scv would be an autowin every time, especially against Zerg. You think proxy 11/11 would be beatable by Zerg if marines built in 14 seconds? You could 2 rax against Protoss too and beat anything greedier than 3 gate expo.
Marine/tank + all your SCVs would be even worse, completely impossible to hold with the amount of marines you'd be able to pump out early.
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On February 24 2013 05:49 Porishan wrote:
Terran in HotS in high level still play the same way like WoL : Heavy bio. No evolution for Mech whether Hellbat got buffed or nerfed. Next more 2 years with bio for Terran
2 supply siege tanks please
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On February 24 2013 06:12 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:49 Porishan wrote:
Terran in HotS in high level still play the same way like WoL : Heavy bio. No evolution for Mech whether Hellbat got buffed or nerfed. Next more 2 years with bio for Terran
2 supply siege tanks please
yes please
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On February 24 2013 05:22 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:This unit is becoming ridiculous, and I've a hard time to believe that blizzard "forgot" to mention that uncalled buff in patch #15.
It is not a buff, it is a bugfix.
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So this unit comes from the factory, has its tech lab upgrade with an armory requirement back. Good change
Though as long as it gets heals from the medivac... it will forever be a bad unit. Mech / Air gets repaired by scv's/mule. Thats one of the big identities of the terran race, they repair shit.
Come on blizzard, you still messing up
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On February 24 2013 05:11 Aquila- wrote:
First, 150/150 is way to expensive, even 100/100 would maybe be too high just to transform, I mean Viking, Tanks, Thors can transform for free. Also now they can revert the cargo nerf.
No they can't revert the nerf. You need to learn how to read. You can still build hellbats out of the armory. Meaning those 7 minute helldrops with 4 bats would still rape. You just need to purchase the upgrade in order to switch between the two. If they reverted the change z's would go back to getting raped by these drops.
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On February 24 2013 07:27 6BiT wrote:
So this unit comes from the factory, has its tech lab upgrade with an armory requirement back. Good change
Though as long as it gets heals from the medivac... it will forever be a bad unit. Mech / Air gets repaired by scv's/mule. Thats one of the big identities of the terran race, they repair shit.
Come on blizzard, you still messing up
Hellbats can still be repaired by mules/SCV
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On February 24 2013 06:48 Aquila- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:22 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:This unit is becoming ridiculous, and I've a hard time to believe that blizzard "forgot" to mention that uncalled buff in patch #15. It is not a buff, it is a bugfix.
Upgrades don't have to be consistent, they should scale in whatever way is most balanced. If +3 hellbats 1-shotting lings and 4-shotting zealots is OP, then the upgrade change should be reverted.
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On February 24 2013 07:32 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:11 Aquila- wrote:
First, 150/150 is way to expensive, even 100/100 would maybe be too high just to transform, I mean Viking, Tanks, Thors can transform for free. Also now they can revert the cargo nerf. No they can't revert the nerf. You need to learn how to read. You can still build hellbats out of the armory. Meaning those 7 minute helldrops with 4 bats would still rape. You just need to purchase the upgrade in order to switch between the two. If they reverted the change z's would go back to getting raped by these drops.
No they wouldn't. In order to hit the drop timing you need to have your helions ready before armory is done. If you build your factory and wait for the armory to finish building, you wont have helions for map control. If you do make helions you need to research or they are forever wheelies. It was first a direct nerf to the drop, the medivac load one, and a indirect nerf in the form of delaying the tech. It basically pushed back for a few minutes the fastest possible timing for a hellbat.
Terran has other decent options for earlier/mid game, but the problem is that mech becomes less interesting as the transition is less smooth and the fact that T lategame is the weaker one right now.
Ravens on paper are really strong but they are not reliable as an infestor or a templar.
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Wow, that's way to expensive for an ability that's not really used that many times, and combined with a 110 second long research time no bio player will ever get this. As a player who likes mech I can't really see myself ever getting this upgrade either. For 150/150 to be worth it I'd better already have a shit ton of hellions I don't longer need.
It's a shame, because it was a fun ability even if it was more of a quality-of-life ability that rarely got used.
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Ohhh... Here come the Blizzard "stack nerfs"... Just like they "stack nerfed" the Reaper into oblivion in WoL...
First you nerf the cargo space
Then you nerf w/ an upgrade
Next you increase the build time of the factory
They need to be sure to not "stack nerf" it...
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I am not even surprised anymore about Blizzrd's stupidity for balance seriously..
First they take forever to tweak something super imbalanced and now they are majorly nerfing something like early game hellbats (which is pretty much when you may need em the most)
I could understand the upgrade itself - maybe a bit shorter research time.
I could understand if it only required the armory to be built.
But Armory need AND such a long upgrade time with that cost ?
No one is gonna do it lol, Blizzard so clueless as usual goddamit
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EPT
