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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. | ||
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Tomasy
Poland80 Posts
On February 23 2013 23:33 MoonCricket wrote: Wait, did I misread something, or can Terrans produce Hellbats from the Factory after they build an Armory and the upgrade only allows Hellions to transform into Hellbats or Hellbats to transform into Hellions? That's exactly what it means. | ||
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CCAA
Germany78 Posts
I just created a thread on bnet forum about a better solution. Hellbat #15 - find a better solution Hey everybody, i have some ideas to change the hellbat in a different way than patch #15 did. The problem with this patch is, you have to skip hellions or never transform them. Because the upgrade is so expensive. Only if you go 2 fax hellions it is worthy to upgrade. Blizzard should at least combine the bf Upgrade and the new transform upgrade. The idea is, you have to decide if you want to go for some runbys -> you choose bf Hellions. Or if you want to go for drop or take a big fight -> you choose Hellbat. Hellbat would have always Blueflame but the damage is the same as atm. You can transform your Blueflame Hellions if Armory is ready. So the players have to take more strategic decisions and nevertheless it's a nerf (bf ugrade required 150/150) -> remove transform upgrade -> Hellbat now requires bf upgrade 150/150 -> Hellbat requires armory but you can transform your blueflame hellion without any additional upgrades -> Hellbat has always blueflame (same damage as redflame atm) in addition to this it is imaginable that hellbats aren't biological anymore. So it is a slightly nerf vs Zerg - you can't heal them. But a slightly buff vs Toss - no Archon bonus dmg. Furthermore it makes the Unit itself and the transform of the Hellbat more logical! So what do you guys think about it? Don't hesitate to ask me. Sry for my english. It is not my mother language :/ | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On February 23 2013 23:30 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: You expect us to believe a 14.5 dps unit that moves at 2.81 (with upgrade) is the worst unit in the game. Either you have no idea how to optimize their damage output beyond a-move, you use them unescorted or both. a 14,5 dps unit (which btw is lower vs every armored unit) with only 80 hp and a movementspeed of 2,81 which is slower than stalker (even without blink lol), stimmed MM, roaches, lings, speedbanes and only a tiny bit faster than chargelots (much slower with charge). you let 2,81 sound fast...it aint...its the slowest of all single target massable units!!! their hp/supply is by far the lowest of all single target massable units! and their DPS isnt supergreat either. chargelots and marines do way more DPS and cost minerals only. oh and btw they need a 400/400 investment to actually be a halfway okay unit for 2-3 minutes. nice. hydras suck. deal with it. every objective player knows it and i like that most P/T player say so also because they actually want to play against different zerg styles. they dearly need 6 range as base range and some sort of hivetech upgrade that gives them +20-40 hp so they dont instadie vs everything and zerg has finally a way to fight skytoss + HT! | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 23 2013 23:30 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: You expect us to believe a 14.5 dps unit that moves at 2.81 (with upgrade) is the worst unit in the game. Either you have no idea how to optimize their damage output beyond a-move, you use them unescorted or both. Well, Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps 550HP/3armor unit with a 300damage blast (with upgrade) which additionally can fly as bad unit. You see how ridicolous such stuff sounds when you don't include how much those units cost or what they require? And you tell other people how immature their discussion style is... | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On February 23 2013 23:33 MoonCricket wrote: Wait, did I misread something, or can Terrans produce Hellbats from the Factory after they build an Armory and the upgrade only allows Hellions to transform into Hellbats or Hellbats to transform into Hellions? Let's repeat: Hellbats may be built when Armory is constructed. Hellion transformation is available with Armory research. At least from what people have posted before. Essentially the 7:30min hellbat drop is dead. And Zerg may continue to open 14hatch with impunity. | ||
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Tomasy
Poland80 Posts
They have 2 upgrades both 150/150 and now its funny coz in TvT you rather have blueflame hellions over hellbats in TvP and TvZ you rather have Hellbats over hellions so its like you never want both upgrades in single matchup O.o . | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 23 2013 23:43 Zorgaz wrote: No revert to the medivac cargo change now that the timing to hellbat drop has been delayed? A little surprised. 4Hellbat drops would still one shot a mineral line. They require skill now with the cargo change (you have to target fire, basically, like with normal hellions), and are still decently effective. | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
Then early game Hellbat pushes are still going to be viable vs Zerg, the CC first, double Reactor/Factory opening can just build Widow Mines and then move into Hellbat production as soon as the Armory is finished. Should be interesting to test on ladder, essentially all Blizzard did was separate the two units - which is the smartest thing they've done in awhile. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 23 2013 23:40 Tomasy wrote: Actually I just realized something about hellions and Hellbats. They have 2 upgrades both 150/150 and now its funny coz in TvT you rather have blueflame hellions over hellbats in TvP and TvZ you rather have Hellbats over hellions so its like you never want both upgrades in single matchup O.o . I'd argue that you would in pretty much every matchup (I know I have on ladder) I'd argue that hellbat drops, while good to attack a main are relatively pointless the later the game goes on as where bases become a lot more spread out, it's a lot easier to move BFH's around the map than it is to bother with added supply of a dropship. Of course if they start pylon walling everywhere and stop you from getting in by ground, drops will be the better choice. It's definately a situational thing now rather than Hellbat drops being the best option all the time. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On February 23 2013 22:38 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: I'm just wondering - are terrans supposed to get something new for late game? Did they buff Battlecruisers or Vikings and I missed it? Did Marauders receive a buff? That's the joke. With all of the new units and changes in HotS a lot of people have forgotten about some of the core reasons as to why Terran was so underpowered in WoL: P/Z superior production mechanics, vulnerability to P/Z tech-switch speed that is near-abusive, and a bad late game. Zerg and Protoss both have a significantly buffed late game in HotS... could this be the queen patch 2.0? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 24 2013 00:12 DemigodcelpH wrote: That's the joke. With all of the new units and changes in HotS a lot of people have forgotten about some of the core reasons as to why Terran was so underpowered in WoL: P/Z superior production mechanics, vulnerability to P/Z tech-switch speed that is near-abusive, and a bad late game. Zerg and Protoss both have a significantly buffed late game in HotS... could this be the queen patch 2.0? At least Z/P lategame are not nearly as strong as ctrl+c combined with ctrl+v | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On February 23 2013 18:31 avilo wrote: No Terran player is going to argue btw guys, because this is how it works during beta: Zerg players die from only building drones and queens, while complaining about anything from Terran on stream. Blizzard sees this, they also see all the Protoss whining about "widow mine drops." If any Terran *raises his hand* and is like, "eh...wait what? We're only nerfing Terran stuff that wasn't an issue in the first place?" they get labelled as a "whiner" by the Zerg / Protoss whiners. All the attention lately is on Terran's only two new units, the hellbat and widow mine, and how they "MUST BE NERFED THEY'RE SO IMBA" after literally 2 weeks of new metagame usage of the hellbat. Things ignored by the community (possibly blizzard? would hope not) : -viper blinding cloud radius/duration -ultra buff vs bio -oracles vs all races bursting down workers -tvp early game being a cluster fuck I cannot wait till people find out about the new Zerg abuse that will be shown soon - mass vipers + mass static defense with traditional broodlords+corruptor+infestor turtle mode. As well as mass swarmhost + corruptor. When this strategy comes out soon, it won't be deemed imbalanced (because it's Zerg) - people are instead going to say how fucking innovative it is and golf clap their hands without a second thought because right now whichever part of the community whines the loudest or whichever popular streamers do get the game changed for the worse. I agreed with a lot of the hellbat nerfs, especially the cargo one. But double and triple nerfing/buffing units is a bit too much. And it historically only happens to Terran. I personally don't care if Terran is nerfed further, nor should any other Terran player. What would be nice though is that they were consistent across all 3 of the races with nerfs/buffs, instead of only nerfing Terran. If you're going to nerf/buff something of one race, you have to do it across the board and look at all three races and what's possibly too strong or weak. Not to mention you get 10x better PR for it. And Terrans will continue to not say shit here or anywhere else because of the backlash they get for actually having an opinion. It would be nice if more Terran players had some balls. I think this post had far too many unfair statements, that do a poor and misleading job of representing the community/situation. You make a few reasonable points maybe, but some lines are just flat out incorrect, and many are exaggerated, showing how 1-sided and skewed your perception is. This is common in a lot of your posts, and needs to stop. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
1 - This isn't an upgrade to get hellbats. This is an upgrade simply to transform hellions to hellbats. Seem to be some people who don't get that. You can pump hellbats just the same as before once your armory is done. 2 - This addresses the easy seamless transition from mass hellion contain into a hellbat timing. All the benefits of early game hellion with all the mid game punch of hellbats was just hitting to hard to fast. Hellbat timings will still be strong just delayed a bit or it means trying strategies where instead of making hellions early maybe go mines and then when armory is done pump hellbats. 3 - People asking for cargo space to be reverted are missing the point. Hellbat drops weren't to strong because of the timing, they were strong at any point in the game really. Actually late game is where you really saw hellbat drops shine most because static defense/lings/blings which you'd use to stop marine drops did nothing. 2-3 simultaneous drops going on late game with cheap hellbats were just very cost effective. And to leave roaches at each base late game is so supply inefficient. Not saying I agree or disagree with the change, but this patch and the cargo are independent of each other and addressing 2 different issues. 4 - People that keep claiming terran just gets nerfed over and over.. well as far as I can tell the last few patches have seen terran buffs. Everything they did to Ravens, no siege upgrade, making hellbats bio, reapers viable, adding extra damage to mines... apparently nobody cares or counts those changes... they bring things up like Zerg gets early burrow? I haven't used burrow once pre-lair and I haven't seen one build exploiting that. Maybe Zerg should complain about all the worthless buffs. Overall, all races have gotten a lot of buffs and nerfs during beta please stop including WoL post release patches to HotS beta. | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On February 24 2013 00:31 FLuE wrote: Even though nobody reads, I'll take a shot at addressing a few things that seem in my mind to be going on : 1 - This isn't an upgrade to get hellbats. This is an upgrade simply to transform hellions to hellbats. Seem to be some people who don't get that. You can pump hellbats just the same as before once your armory is done. 2 - This addresses the easy seamless transition from mass hellion contain into a hellbat timing. All the benefits of early game hellion with all the mid game punch of hellbats was just hitting to hard to fast. Hellbat timings will still be strong just delayed a bit or it means trying strategies where instead of making hellions early maybe go mines and then when armory is done pump hellbats. 3 - People asking for cargo space to be reverted are missing the point. Hellbat drops weren't to strong because of the timing, they were strong at any point in the game really. Actually late game is where you really saw hellbat drops shine most because static defense/lings/blings which you'd use to stop marine drops did nothing. 2-3 simultaneous drops going on late game with cheap hellbats were just very cost effective. And to leave roaches at each base late game is so supply inefficient. Not saying I agree or disagree with the change, but this patch and the cargo are independent of each other and addressing 2 different issues. 4 - People that keep claiming terran just gets nerfed over and over.. well as far as I can tell the last few patches have seen terran buffs. Everything they did to Ravens, no siege upgrade, making hellbats bio, reapers viable, adding extra damage to mines... apparently nobody cares or counts those changes... they bring things up like Zerg gets early burrow? I haven't used burrow once pre-lair and I haven't seen one build exploiting that. Maybe Zerg should complain about all the worthless buffs. Overall, all races have gotten a lot of buffs and nerfs during beta please stop including WoL post release patches to HotS beta. Agree completely with 1-3, great points. 4 I agree with your main point that terrans did just get an insane amount of buffs (more than you mentioned such as medivac boost), and I agree that it feels ridiculous to complain about earlier burrow. Although, I wouldn't say it doesn't have any use, just seems not right to complain about it in the way that a few (like avilo) have done. Burrow rushes to me feel like a way to make an attack that would already be successful without burrow vs a player who was under-prepared, a little bit stronger/more annoying to deal with... Rather than a way to turn an attack that would normally be deflected, into a successful one. In all matchups. | ||
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FancyCaTSC2
56 Posts
It explains the cargo space change, solves the problems of hellbats being to cheap for the damage (I'm terran and they obviously are too good for 100 minerals) while not hurting mech, because they still don't cost any gas. Also it would rule out some strong bio hellbat comps that could potentially become a problem. I really don't see a big factor that speaks against it. Edit: Obviously they can't be 4 supply though. Guess that might be a small problem. | ||
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phfantunes
Brazil170 Posts
Edit: Found my answer above. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
On February 24 2013 00:31 FLuE wrote: Even though nobody reads, I'll take a shot at addressing a few things that seem in my mind to be going on : 1 - This isn't an upgrade to get hellbats. This is an upgrade simply to transform hellions to hellbats. Seem to be some people who don't get that. You can pump hellbats just the same as before once your armory is done. 2 - This addresses the easy seamless transition from mass hellion contain into a hellbat timing. All the benefits of early game hellion with all the mid game punch of hellbats was just hitting to hard to fast. Hellbat timings will still be strong just delayed a bit or it means trying strategies where instead of making hellions early maybe go mines and then when armory is done pump hellbats. 3 - People asking for cargo space to be reverted are missing the point. Hellbat drops weren't to strong because of the timing, they were strong at any point in the game really. Actually late game is where you really saw hellbat drops shine most because static defense/lings/blings which you'd use to stop marine drops did nothing. 2-3 simultaneous drops going on late game with cheap hellbats were just very cost effective. And to leave roaches at each base late game is so supply inefficient. Not saying I agree or disagree with the change, but this patch and the cargo are independent of each other and addressing 2 different issues. 4 - People that keep claiming terran just gets nerfed over and over.. well as far as I can tell the last few patches have seen terran buffs. Everything they did to Ravens, no siege upgrade, making hellbats bio, reapers viable, adding extra damage to mines... apparently nobody cares or counts those changes... they bring things up like Zerg gets early burrow? I haven't used burrow once pre-lair and I haven't seen one build exploiting that. Maybe Zerg should complain about all the worthless buffs. Overall, all races have gotten a lot of buffs and nerfs during beta please stop including WoL post release patches to HotS beta. The patch note was rather confusing, I sure thought that you could only produce hellbats after researching the new upgrade. In this case, keeping the cargo space as it is makes perfect sense. The fact that players now have to choose hellions or hellbats in early-mid game is good, the more decisions the better but I reckon hellbats still need a dps nerf + the ability to use BF. About burrow, it can force early scans and prevent your opponent from mining, like the WM. DRG used burrowed roaches really well against Jjakji on Daybreak, the upgrade has some potential and can punish terrans who wasted all their energy on mules. | ||
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habeck
1120 Posts
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