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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. |
On February 23 2013 18:39 CCAA wrote:
The problem with this patch is, you have to skip hellions or never transform them. Because the upgrade is so expensive. Only if you go 2 fax hellions it is worthy to upgrade.
Sure there was a nerf necessary. They should at least combine the bf Upgrade and the new transform upgrade. The idea is, you have to decide if you want to go for some runbys -> you choose bf Hellions. Or if you want to go for drop or take a big fight -> you choose Hellbat. Hellbat would have always Blueflame but the damage is the same as atm. You can transform your Blueflame Hellions if Armory is ready.
So the players have to take more strategic decisions and nevertheless it's a nerf (bf ugrade required 150/150)
-> remove transform upgrade
-> Hellbat now requires bf upgrade 150/150
-> Hellbat requires armory but you can transform your blueflame hellion without any additional upgrades
-> Hellbat has always blueflame (same damage as redflame atm)
Well, I assume somebody who goes mech will get the upgrade eventually. But I really like your idea. It would be a first step into making the Hellbat more logical. Also, will removing the beeing healed ability cause balance problems? Removing the ability to be healed would aso really help to make the unit more logical.
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I just hope that blizzard doesn't keep hating on Terran anymore. Struggling to stay 50/50 in masters when I used to go nearly 2/3 b4 queen buff/infestor is wrong
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I just don't understand why they don't nerf the Hellbat damage and you get the old damage back when you research the Infernal pre-igniter. This doesn't make any sense to me, Infernal Pre-igniter upgrade is useless since nobody is even using Hellions for anything except for speed, there is really no reason to upgrade it when you have Hellbat that is 2 times stronger than Hellion vs. everything.
I would remove the Hellbat upgrade right now, and give the Armory requirement for Infernal Pre-igniter, so you can get Hellbats early, but not nearly as strong.
What do you guys think?
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On February 23 2013 18:31 avilo wrote:
I agreed with a lot of the hellbat nerfs, especially the cargo one. But double and triple nerfing/buffing units is a bit too much. And it historically only happens to Terran. I personally don't care if Terran is nerfed further, nor should any other Terran player. What would be nice though is that they were consistent across all 3 of the races with nerfs/buffs, instead of only nerfing Terran.
If you're going to nerf/buff something of one race, you have to do it across the board and look at all three races and what's possibly too strong or weak. Not to mention you get 10x better PR for it.
And Terrans will continue to not say shit here or anywhere else because of the backlash they get for actually having an opinion.
It would be nice if more Terran players had some balls.
Aren't you getting really tired to fight avilo? I fought years, and I finally gave up, and believe me, its feels great. I play LoL now, because I realized that things will never change.
For example: broodlord infestor in wol: it's so strong, I never saw a terran who was EVEN with the zerg win against it, never. And it's still in the game. Blizzard never touched it.
Another example is the greedyness: zergs can play greedy, and allins are really not viable against them (still talking about wol). Meanwhile zergs can allin terrans without a problem. Zergs tell us then that "we shouldn't play so greedy", but meanwhile we can't punish their greedyness. Blizzard refuses to change this.
And then there is hots, our new hope. And as you can see, no change in policy.
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The amount of whining in this thread is amusing, really. The hellbat is the same unit, it just requires an upgrade from the building you needed to get anyway.
Suddenly, Terran has nothing against Zergs, cannot go mech anymore and most probably will never win a game on ladder. For it's price the Hellbat is still WAY too good, it doesn't matter when you get this unit. It beats marines, zealots, lings, it's good for harass and some of you are raging when you can no longer get this unit in the first 5 minutes of the game. Funny.
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Am I the only one thinking people here think they can't build Hellbat when armory is done without this upgrade?
It's still possible to build Hellbats from Factory after Armory is done. You only need this upgrad if you want to transoform Hellions into Hellbats and vica versa.
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On February 23 2013 20:17 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 18:31 avilo wrote:
I agreed with a lot of the hellbat nerfs, especially the cargo one. But double and triple nerfing/buffing units is a bit too much. And it historically only happens to Terran. I personally don't care if Terran is nerfed further, nor should any other Terran player. What would be nice though is that they were consistent across all 3 of the races with nerfs/buffs, instead of only nerfing Terran.
If you're going to nerf/buff something of one race, you have to do it across the board and look at all three races and what's possibly too strong or weak. Not to mention you get 10x better PR for it.
And Terrans will continue to not say shit here or anywhere else because of the backlash they get for actually having an opinion.
It would be nice if more Terran players had some balls. Aren't you getting really tired to fight avilo? I fought years, and I finally gave up, and believe me, its feels great. I play LoL now, because I realized that things will never change. For example: broodlord infestor in wol: it's so strong, I never saw a terran who was EVEN with the zerg win against it, never. And it's still in the game. Blizzard never touched it. Another example is the greedyness: zergs can play greedy, and allins are really not viable against them (still talking about wol). Meanwhile zergs can allin terrans without a problem. Zergs tell us then that "we shouldn't play so greedy", but meanwhile we can't punish their greedyness. Blizzard refuses to change this. And then there is hots, our new hope. And as you can see, no change in policy.
i LOVE how terrans say stuff like "zerg can play so greedy" while T got WM and free siege mode and are the ones that can play supergreedy in HOTS AND have a nice lategame army with the new superraven now. and on the hellbat topic. they are 100% the same good unit except it comes later. the reasoning behind this patch was maybe the best explained patch notes ever: you cant have supermapcontrol units and make them into combat units for 150/100 (and that 150/100 you will need later anyway). that would be like making 50 zerglings and for 100 gas you could morph ALL of them into banelings. maybe now you realize how powerful and stupidly cheap hellbats still are.
but overall i think blizzard should go the other way and dont nerf stuff (which is much easier) but instead buff stuff to counter the "OP" things. thats a lot harder obv since that effects everything else and its too late now but i would like to see more OP stuff but also more OP stuff that counter that ^^
oh and the amount of nerfs/buffs to a race is retarded to count. if one race is superOP and they get 10 nerfs that is as fine as 3 nerfs. its about content of the nerfs and a balanced and fun game.
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On February 23 2013 20:29 Everlong wrote:
Am I the only one thinking people here think they can't build Hellbat when armory is done without this upgrade?
It's still possible to build Hellbats from Factory after Armory is done. You only need this upgrad if you want to transoform Hellions into Hellbats and vica versa.
Wait...seriously? I haven't actually looked, but I assume you tested it?
That's even MORE confusing
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On February 23 2013 20:24 Inex wrote:
The amount of whining in this thread is amusing, really. The hellbat is the same unit, it just requires an upgrade from the building you needed to get anyway.
Suddenly, Terran has nothing against Zergs, cannot go mech anymore and most probably will never win a game on ladder. For it's price the Hellbat is still WAY too good, it doesn't matter when you get this unit. It beats marines, zealots, lings, it's good for harass and some of you are raging when you can no longer get this unit in the first 5 minutes of the game. Funny.
This being or not a significant change is not the even the main reason for the whine, nor the main point in the end. It probably has more to do with terran's frustration from bashing our heads against a wall for a year, since the patch speeds and the nerfs/buffs themselves seem to be unidirectional.
On February 23 2013 20:35 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 20:17 Snowbear wrote:On February 23 2013 18:31 avilo wrote:
I agreed with a lot of the hellbat nerfs, especially the cargo one. But double and triple nerfing/buffing units is a bit too much. And it historically only happens to Terran. I personally don't care if Terran is nerfed further, nor should any other Terran player. What would be nice though is that they were consistent across all 3 of the races with nerfs/buffs, instead of only nerfing Terran.
If you're going to nerf/buff something of one race, you have to do it across the board and look at all three races and what's possibly too strong or weak. Not to mention you get 10x better PR for it.
And Terrans will continue to not say shit here or anywhere else because of the backlash they get for actually having an opinion.
It would be nice if more Terran players had some balls. Aren't you getting really tired to fight avilo? I fought years, and I finally gave up, and believe me, its feels great. I play LoL now, because I realized that things will never change. For example: broodlord infestor in wol: it's so strong, I never saw a terran who was EVEN with the zerg win against it, never. And it's still in the game. Blizzard never touched it. Another example is the greedyness: zergs can play greedy, and allins are really not viable against them (still talking about wol). Meanwhile zergs can allin terrans without a problem. Zergs tell us then that "we shouldn't play so greedy", but meanwhile we can't punish their greedyness. Blizzard refuses to change this. And then there is hots, our new hope. And as you can see, no change in policy. i LOVE how terrans say stuff like "zerg can play so greedy" while T got WM and siege mode
WM is one of those interesting game concepts, in which depending on the fluctuation of my MMR, the unit is either fantastic and completely wrecks early pushes, or ends up killing one zergling / trigger. I personally love things designed this way, that greatly take skill into consideration, but the unit is not insane, and even getting two siege tanks is still a considerable investment. We have to cut something between tech, production, upgrades and a quick third. Apparently, it's a complete blasphemy if you have to cut anything, even though you have much better scouting.
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On February 23 2013 20:09 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 18:39 CCAA wrote:
The problem with this patch is, you have to skip hellions or never transform them. Because the upgrade is so expensive. Only if you go 2 fax hellions it is worthy to upgrade.
Sure there was a nerf necessary. They should at least combine the bf Upgrade and the new transform upgrade. The idea is, you have to decide if you want to go for some runbys -> you choose bf Hellions. Or if you want to go for drop or take a big fight -> you choose Hellbat. Hellbat would have always Blueflame but the damage is the same as atm. You can transform your Blueflame Hellions if Armory is ready.
So the players have to take more strategic decisions and nevertheless it's a nerf (bf ugrade required 150/150)
-> remove transform upgrade
-> Hellbat now requires bf upgrade 150/150
-> Hellbat requires armory but you can transform your blueflame hellion without any additional upgrades
-> Hellbat has always blueflame (same damage as redflame atm)
Well, I assume somebody who goes mech will get the upgrade eventually. But I really like your idea. It would be a first step into making the Hellbat more logical. Also, will removing the beeing healed ability cause balance problems? Removing the ability to be healed would aso really help to make the unit more logical.
well you can remove biological, so it isn't possible to heal them. AND it would be a slightly buff for mech vs Protoss (cause of Archon bonus dmg). So healing/biological is also a thing blizzard can look at.
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On February 23 2013 20:36 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 20:29 Everlong wrote:
Am I the only one thinking people here think they can't build Hellbat when armory is done without this upgrade?
It's still possible to build Hellbats from Factory after Armory is done. You only need this upgrad if you want to transoform Hellions into Hellbats and vica versa. Wait...seriously? I haven't actually looked, but I assume you tested it? That's even MORE confusing
Sure I tested it. You can build Hellbat when Armory is done just like berfore.. It's just that if you want to TRANSFORM them, you need this upgrade.
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For example: broodlord infestor in wol: it's so strong, I never saw a terran who was EVEN with the zerg win against it, never. And it's still in the game. Blizzard never touched it.
Another example is the greedyness: zergs can play greedy, and allins are really not viable against them (still talking about wol). Meanwhile zergs can allin terrans without a problem. Zergs tell us then that "we shouldn't play so greedy", but meanwhile we can't punish their greedyness. Blizzard refuses to change this.
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Holy shit! I am so happy that they removed fungal to its original form, the missile was so bad. They also removed the damage change vs armored 
You might want to use HSM vs broodlords, since in does not require an upgrade anymore. Also, siege upgrade was removed, that will help you defend bases and not die to roach baneling all ins, so I guess it's fine that you have to upgrade hellbats now.
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31% Terrans with no sense for balance whatsoever. . Oh wait. . A third of the player base is Terran. . Hmmmm
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On February 23 2013 20:37 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 20:35 Decendos wrote:On February 23 2013 20:17 Snowbear wrote:On February 23 2013 18:31 avilo wrote:
I agreed with a lot of the hellbat nerfs, especially the cargo one. But double and triple nerfing/buffing units is a bit too much. And it historically only happens to Terran. I personally don't care if Terran is nerfed further, nor should any other Terran player. What would be nice though is that they were consistent across all 3 of the races with nerfs/buffs, instead of only nerfing Terran.
If you're going to nerf/buff something of one race, you have to do it across the board and look at all three races and what's possibly too strong or weak. Not to mention you get 10x better PR for it.
And Terrans will continue to not say shit here or anywhere else because of the backlash they get for actually having an opinion.
It would be nice if more Terran players had some balls. Aren't you getting really tired to fight avilo? I fought years, and I finally gave up, and believe me, its feels great. I play LoL now, because I realized that things will never change. For example: broodlord infestor in wol: it's so strong, I never saw a terran who was EVEN with the zerg win against it, never. And it's still in the game. Blizzard never touched it. Another example is the greedyness: zergs can play greedy, and allins are really not viable against them (still talking about wol). Meanwhile zergs can allin terrans without a problem. Zergs tell us then that "we shouldn't play so greedy", but meanwhile we can't punish their greedyness. Blizzard refuses to change this. And then there is hots, our new hope. And as you can see, no change in policy. i LOVE how terrans say stuff like "zerg can play so greedy" while T got WM and siege mode WM is one of those interesting game concepts, in which depending on the fluctuation of my MMR, the unit is either fantastic and completely wrecks early pushes, or ends up killing one zergling / trigger. I personally love things designed this way, that greatly take skill into consideration, but the unit is not insane, and even getting two siege tanks is still a considerable investment. We have to cut something between tech, production, upgrades and a quick third. Apparently, it's a complete blasphemy if you have to cut anything, even though you have much better scouting.
i also like the mine taking skill from both sides. you can trigger it with 1 ling but also T can kill the 1 ling with 2 rines before the mine is triggered etc. never said WM is imba.
as for your argument. if Z wants to be aggressive with roach ling (bling) it got way easier to defend that in HOTS than it was in WoL, so yes T can play more greedy. on the other hand Z has to play less greedy because of hellbats and mines while having to play more greedy because aggressive play got way worse. see the dilemma of zerg early game? believe me all zerg players would like to have good pressure builds early on but they got even worse in HOTS. people think zerg like to mass drone, build mass infestor and build slowmoving BL/infestor army in WoL. WE DONT!!! but most other units/strats sucked in WoL so we had to. in HOTS there is the same problem only with other units. now BL/infestor sucks but ultras are a lot better. still zerg has to mass drone and either build mutas or fast hive since SHs, hydras suck and nydus, drop etc. is still too bad. blizz promised to fix T2 zerg...well they fucked it up even more. you need hive more than ever to have a chance.
so yeah we will have to wait for LotV rofl....
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I'm a terran player. This change was needed. The whole "mass contain into autowin" that a pure hellion or hellion marine opening provided was completely overpowered.
You can happily build hellbats from the factory with this upgrade, IIRC my games correctly. Just can't transform them in the field straight away. Will have to double check this but still.
It beats marines, zealots, lings,
What?
Split stimmed marines with medivac support and the most basic of micro slaughter hellbats. Hell. People don't seem to have figured it out yet, but so do pure hellions, roaches, hydras and stalkers. They just aren't the casual autowin make immortal bullshit that mech has suffered. They require micro to deal with.
That is fine. That's what they are there to do. They are an anti-a-move unit. They stop a player from just building 90 units and clicking somewhere behind a terran army. They are MEANT TO BE POWERFUL.
People seem shocked that zealots and lings lose to a unit designed to counter them directly. In which case, allow me to gifrt you with a clue. Don't build those units against hellbats.
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stop embarassing yourself whining over this change, there are more to come as tvz in hots is way in terrans favor
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On February 23 2013 20:49 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 20:37 n0ise wrote:On February 23 2013 20:35 Decendos wrote:On February 23 2013 20:17 Snowbear wrote:On February 23 2013 18:31 avilo wrote:
I agreed with a lot of the hellbat nerfs, especially the cargo one. But double and triple nerfing/buffing units is a bit too much. And it historically only happens to Terran. I personally don't care if Terran is nerfed further, nor should any other Terran player. What would be nice though is that they were consistent across all 3 of the races with nerfs/buffs, instead of only nerfing Terran.
If you're going to nerf/buff something of one race, you have to do it across the board and look at all three races and what's possibly too strong or weak. Not to mention you get 10x better PR for it.
And Terrans will continue to not say shit here or anywhere else because of the backlash they get for actually having an opinion.
It would be nice if more Terran players had some balls. Aren't you getting really tired to fight avilo? I fought years, and I finally gave up, and believe me, its feels great. I play LoL now, because I realized that things will never change. For example: broodlord infestor in wol: it's so strong, I never saw a terran who was EVEN with the zerg win against it, never. And it's still in the game. Blizzard never touched it. Another example is the greedyness: zergs can play greedy, and allins are really not viable against them (still talking about wol). Meanwhile zergs can allin terrans without a problem. Zergs tell us then that "we shouldn't play so greedy", but meanwhile we can't punish their greedyness. Blizzard refuses to change this. And then there is hots, our new hope. And as you can see, no change in policy. i LOVE how terrans say stuff like "zerg can play so greedy" while T got WM and siege mode WM is one of those interesting game concepts, in which depending on the fluctuation of my MMR, the unit is either fantastic and completely wrecks early pushes, or ends up killing one zergling / trigger. I personally love things designed this way, that greatly take skill into consideration, but the unit is not insane, and even getting two siege tanks is still a considerable investment. We have to cut something between tech, production, upgrades and a quick third. Apparently, it's a complete blasphemy if you have to cut anything, even though you have much better scouting. i also like the mine taking skill from both sides. you can trigger it with 1 ling but also T can kill the 1 ling with 2 rines before the mine is triggered etc. never said WM is imba. as for your argument. if Z wants to be aggressive with roach ling (bling) it got way easier to defend that in HOTS than it was in WoL, so yes T can play more greedy. on the other hand Z has to play less greedy because of hellbats and mines while having to play more greedy because aggressive play got way worse. see the dilemma of zerg early game? believe me all zerg players would like to have good pressure builds early on but they got even worse in HOTS. people think zerg like to mass drone, build mass infestor and build slowmoving BL/infestor army in WoL. WE DONT!!! but most other units/strats sucked in WoL so we had to. in HOTS there is the same problem only with other units. now BL/infestor sucks but ultras are a lot better. still zerg has to mass drone and either build mutas or fast hive since SHs, hydras suck and nydus, drop etc. is still too bad. blizz promised to fix T2 zerg...well they fucked it up even more. you need hive more than ever to have a chance. so yeah we will have to wait for LotV rofl....
Oh come on. Very few zerg ever bothered to explore the extent of nydus play. Swarm hosts are awesome. Hydras are now awesome. There is a vast amount of the zerg arsenal that no zerg bothered to exploit because the easiest way to win games was just to build infestors and let them autowin you the game with whatever T3 unit you chose to build. It wasn't just the best strategy, it was virtually unbeatable. It defined the entire game.
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On February 23 2013 20:29 Everlong wrote:
Am I the only one thinking people here think they can't build Hellbat when armory is done without this upgrade?
It's still possible to build Hellbats from Factory after Armory is done. You only need this upgrad if you want to transoform Hellions into Hellbats and vica versa.
I agree with you that people seem to be misunderstanding this change.
Indeed you can still build Hellbats once you have the armory.
What is no longer possible is building hellions while the armory is still in progress, then transform the already built hellions when the armory is finished, and attack with them.
This change seems to nerf hellbat-rushes (based on reactor-factory and armory) in the early game, but not hellbats in general.
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On February 23 2013 12:36 Zelniq wrote:if you are completely surrounded by hydras who are in an arc (standing in a line, shoulder to shoulder), storm isn't actually that effective at dealing with them.
Dude, 2 colossi...
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On February 23 2013 20:29 Everlong wrote:
Am I the only one thinking people here think they can't build Hellbat when armory is done without this upgrade?
It's still possible to build Hellbats from Factory after Armory is done. You only need this upgrad if you want to transoform Hellions into Hellbats and vica versa.
Did you have to spoil it? This was the greatest IQ check to date to find out what people that actually test things out and if they have basic reading comprehension. Ah well, gonna note down the people in this thread so far that gotten caught and hope that people don't read this O_o.
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