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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. |
On February 23 2013 21:04 bennedik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 20:29 Everlong wrote:
Am I the only one thinking people here think they can't build Hellbat when armory is done without this upgrade?
It's still possible to build Hellbats from Factory after Armory is done. You only need this upgrad if you want to transoform Hellions into Hellbats and vica versa. I agree with you that people seem to be misunderstanding this change. Indeed you can still build Hellbats once you have the armory. What is no longer possible is building hellions while the armory is still in progress, then transform the already built hellions when the armory is finished, and attack with them. This change seems to nerf hellbat-rushes (based on reactor-factory and armory) in the early game, but not hellbats in general.
Do you think the removal of the seeker missile research is a buff to the Raven, or that the removal of siege upgrade is a buff to the siege tank? If yes, then this new upgrade is also a nerf to hellbats in general. Yes, you can build hellbats and hellions, but they aren't as flexible as one that can transform between the two. Some tech trees that previously incorporated hellbats won't do so anymore because of the upgrade cost and time needed on a factory with techlab that is better spent somewhere else.
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Its not a nerf its a timing adjustment.
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I do not see why people like Everlong are raging hard on this change, while it may be less beneficial for TvP, it is very much needed in TvZ. But as others pointed out, I guess that guys like him rage because their 7 minute 8 hellbat push doesn't kill Zergs out right and that it needs more skill to actually 'win' matches.
Oh well...
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I agree with this change, it needed to be done. But I do however feel Blizzard are heading in the wrong direction with a lot of things. The only thing that seems extremely well done is the new BN UI.
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Balancing HoTS based on Korean pro players who self admittedly have 1 or 2 day of Beta experience ? Blizzard balance team is once again activating the nitro boosts of their failmobile.
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On February 23 2013 21:14 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 20:29 Everlong wrote:
Am I the only one thinking people here think they can't build Hellbat when armory is done without this upgrade?
It's still possible to build Hellbats from Factory after Armory is done. You only need this upgrad if you want to transoform Hellions into Hellbats and vica versa. Did you have to spoil it? This was the greatest IQ check to date to find out what people that actually test things out and if they have basic reading comprehension. Ah well, gonna note down the people in this thread so far that gotten caught and hope that people don't read this O_o.
Yep this and a lot of people failed big time. The change isn't as bad as people panicked about, it simply proves that 1/ they cant read and 2/ they haven't tried the change before posting
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On February 23 2013 21:30 DeCoup wrote:
Its not a nerf its a timing adjustment.
Lol, this is a RTS. Any changes in timing is a nerf/buff. It would be saying the if mutas were move to hive tech, it wouldn't be a nerf but only a timing adjustment. How ridiculous does that sound?
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As a Terran, i can completely agree hellbat needed to Change. However with this change, the upgrade seems a bit useless? If Terrans want hellbats, they'll produce hellbats from the factory instead of Hellions.
I guess only when someone really over committed to Hellions and they're just taking up supply someone might get the upgrade....
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 23 2013 22:06 Mithriel wrote:
As a Terran, i can completely agree hellbat needed to Change. However with this change, the upgrade seems a bit useless? If Terrans want hellbats, they'll produce hellbats from the factory instead of Hellions.
I guess only when someone really over committed to Hellions and they're just taking up supply someone might get the upgrade....
As a terran I also agree with this change and the upgrade to me makes sense as it means you can't go mass hellion as a bio player to start with for map control, then change them all into hellbats and have a really strong standing army really quickly in the game. It means you can commit into hellions, but to get the full use out of them you'll need the upgrade. Or you can still get hellbats, but you can't transform them without the upgrade which means you won't be able to switch in and out for map control and mobility when you want too.
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Norway10161 Posts
I'm just wondering - are terrans supposed to get something new for late game? Did they buff Battlecruisers or Vikings and I missed it? Did Marauders receive a buff?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 23 2013 22:38 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
I'm just wondering - are terrans supposed to get something new for late game? Did they buff Battlecruisers or Vikings and I missed it? Did Marauders receive a buff?
Ravens are actually much better now they don't require like 5 upgrades to get. Also the lower cost on HSM makes them a really nice support unit for mech.
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On February 23 2013 22:39 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 22:38 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
I'm just wondering - are terrans supposed to get something new for late game? Did they buff Battlecruisers or Vikings and I missed it? Did Marauders receive a buff?
Ravens are actually much better now they don't require like 5 upgrades to get. Also the lower cost on HSM makes them a really nice support unit for mech.
Well HSM got like a nerf/burff to me. When you had HSM in WoL it was really strong, when you casted it. Now you have it earlier, but the opponent can do stuff like move out of range in the 5 seconds or move into the direction of my army to use it againt me or at least, just gets this one unit killed. But fungal still owns ravens, maybe even more because of the range buff.
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I guess this change was to be expected but I really hope that mech still works in TvZ.
Otherwise hellbat will quickly become the new reaper.
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I don't understand this at all. Why don't they just make blueflame affect hellbats so they do their full damage once they have blueflame?
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On February 23 2013 22:38 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
I'm just wondering - are terrans supposed to get something new for late game? Did they buff Battlecruisers or Vikings and I missed it? Did Marauders receive a buff?
with the improvement on ravens, many terran open with mech and opt for 3 starports on 3 bases, relying less on thors and tanks to make way for the skyterran transition earlier
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On February 23 2013 22:52 DoubleReed wrote:
I don't understand this at all. Why don't they just make blueflame affect hellbats so they do their full damage once they have blueflame?
yeah, something like this would be best imo.
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On February 23 2013 15:53 BrassMonkey27 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 15:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
P.S I'm sick of pro Zerg players whining about losing after rushing their deathball into
UNIT COMPOSITIONS SPECIFICALLY BUILT TO KILL THEM!!!
Marauder beats Roach (with stutter step and medivac)
Hellbat beats lings
Both queen and Medivacs have heal spell.
Zergs have mobile "defense" buildings, spore and spine
Zergs have, via creep spread, ability to expand map vision the longer they hold a position.
Terrans have scan...
What do Zerg "pros" do? Rush 3:1 ratio of roach/sling into stutter stepping line of marine/marauders.
Dies, then complains Terran IMBA and they NEED a bigger economy to beat Terran.
Blizzard then buffs Zerg against every viable pre-10min push, giving free spores, OL Speed
Now that they can't buff Zerg anymore, now they resort to nerfing Zerg's opponents. I'm honestly curious as to whether this is a troll or someone who is completely out of touch with reality.
Yes, I upset you, therefore I'm either a troll or crazy.
So much for mature discussions, two can play that game.
I noticed most Terran player idea of fun is punish greedy/careless/lazy openings and punish sloppy deployment/execution.
This fact speaks volumes about a Zerg player's skill/knowledge/ ability to strategize in a strategy game.
I rest my case.
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On February 23 2013 21:00 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 20:49 Decendos wrote:On February 23 2013 20:37 n0ise wrote:On February 23 2013 20:35 Decendos wrote:On February 23 2013 20:17 Snowbear wrote:On February 23 2013 18:31 avilo wrote:
I agreed with a lot of the hellbat nerfs, especially the cargo one. But double and triple nerfing/buffing units is a bit too much. And it historically only happens to Terran. I personally don't care if Terran is nerfed further, nor should any other Terran player. What would be nice though is that they were consistent across all 3 of the races with nerfs/buffs, instead of only nerfing Terran.
If you're going to nerf/buff something of one race, you have to do it across the board and look at all three races and what's possibly too strong or weak. Not to mention you get 10x better PR for it.
And Terrans will continue to not say shit here or anywhere else because of the backlash they get for actually having an opinion.
It would be nice if more Terran players had some balls. Aren't you getting really tired to fight avilo? I fought years, and I finally gave up, and believe me, its feels great. I play LoL now, because I realized that things will never change. For example: broodlord infestor in wol: it's so strong, I never saw a terran who was EVEN with the zerg win against it, never. And it's still in the game. Blizzard never touched it. Another example is the greedyness: zergs can play greedy, and allins are really not viable against them (still talking about wol). Meanwhile zergs can allin terrans without a problem. Zergs tell us then that "we shouldn't play so greedy", but meanwhile we can't punish their greedyness. Blizzard refuses to change this. And then there is hots, our new hope. And as you can see, no change in policy. i LOVE how terrans say stuff like "zerg can play so greedy" while T got WM and siege mode WM is one of those interesting game concepts, in which depending on the fluctuation of my MMR, the unit is either fantastic and completely wrecks early pushes, or ends up killing one zergling / trigger. I personally love things designed this way, that greatly take skill into consideration, but the unit is not insane, and even getting two siege tanks is still a considerable investment. We have to cut something between tech, production, upgrades and a quick third. Apparently, it's a complete blasphemy if you have to cut anything, even though you have much better scouting. i also like the mine taking skill from both sides. you can trigger it with 1 ling but also T can kill the 1 ling with 2 rines before the mine is triggered etc. never said WM is imba. as for your argument. if Z wants to be aggressive with roach ling (bling) it got way easier to defend that in HOTS than it was in WoL, so yes T can play more greedy. on the other hand Z has to play less greedy because of hellbats and mines while having to play more greedy because aggressive play got way worse. see the dilemma of zerg early game? believe me all zerg players would like to have good pressure builds early on but they got even worse in HOTS. people think zerg like to mass drone, build mass infestor and build slowmoving BL/infestor army in WoL. WE DONT!!! but most other units/strats sucked in WoL so we had to. in HOTS there is the same problem only with other units. now BL/infestor sucks but ultras are a lot better. still zerg has to mass drone and either build mutas or fast hive since SHs, hydras suck and nydus, drop etc. is still too bad. blizz promised to fix T2 zerg...well they fucked it up even more. you need hive more than ever to have a chance. so yeah we will have to wait for LotV rofl.... Oh come on. Very few zerg ever bothered to explore the extent of nydus play. Swarm hosts are awesome. Hydras are now awesome. There is a vast amount of the zerg arsenal that no zerg bothered to exploit because the easiest way to win games was just to build infestors and let them autowin you the game with whatever T3 unit you chose to build. It wasn't just the best strategy, it was virtually unbeatable. It defined the entire game.
oh yeah beta is going on since 5 months or so but zergs are too stupid to make hydras, swarmhost, nydus, ovidrop etc. work now that BL/infestor doesnt work anymore. 5 months in which brainless zerg players didnt try that....oh wait actually some zerg players arent mentally retarded like you suppose and tried that stuff and even their opponents say that hydras suck hardcore and SH are a shit all in unit unless supermassed. so please dont troll and say stuff like "hydras are awesome". they are literally the worst unit in the game.
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On February 23 2013 23:20 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 21:00 Evangelist wrote:On February 23 2013 20:49 Decendos wrote:On February 23 2013 20:37 n0ise wrote:On February 23 2013 20:35 Decendos wrote:On February 23 2013 20:17 Snowbear wrote:On February 23 2013 18:31 avilo wrote:
I agreed with a lot of the hellbat nerfs, especially the cargo one. But double and triple nerfing/buffing units is a bit too much. And it historically only happens to Terran. I personally don't care if Terran is nerfed further, nor should any other Terran player. What would be nice though is that they were consistent across all 3 of the races with nerfs/buffs, instead of only nerfing Terran.
If you're going to nerf/buff something of one race, you have to do it across the board and look at all three races and what's possibly too strong or weak. Not to mention you get 10x better PR for it.
And Terrans will continue to not say shit here or anywhere else because of the backlash they get for actually having an opinion.
It would be nice if more Terran players had some balls. Aren't you getting really tired to fight avilo? I fought years, and I finally gave up, and believe me, its feels great. I play LoL now, because I realized that things will never change. For example: broodlord infestor in wol: it's so strong, I never saw a terran who was EVEN with the zerg win against it, never. And it's still in the game. Blizzard never touched it. Another example is the greedyness: zergs can play greedy, and allins are really not viable against them (still talking about wol). Meanwhile zergs can allin terrans without a problem. Zergs tell us then that "we shouldn't play so greedy", but meanwhile we can't punish their greedyness. Blizzard refuses to change this. And then there is hots, our new hope. And as you can see, no change in policy. i LOVE how terrans say stuff like "zerg can play so greedy" while T got WM and siege mode WM is one of those interesting game concepts, in which depending on the fluctuation of my MMR, the unit is either fantastic and completely wrecks early pushes, or ends up killing one zergling / trigger. I personally love things designed this way, that greatly take skill into consideration, but the unit is not insane, and even getting two siege tanks is still a considerable investment. We have to cut something between tech, production, upgrades and a quick third. Apparently, it's a complete blasphemy if you have to cut anything, even though you have much better scouting. i also like the mine taking skill from both sides. you can trigger it with 1 ling but also T can kill the 1 ling with 2 rines before the mine is triggered etc. never said WM is imba. as for your argument. if Z wants to be aggressive with roach ling (bling) it got way easier to defend that in HOTS than it was in WoL, so yes T can play more greedy. on the other hand Z has to play less greedy because of hellbats and mines while having to play more greedy because aggressive play got way worse. see the dilemma of zerg early game? believe me all zerg players would like to have good pressure builds early on but they got even worse in HOTS. people think zerg like to mass drone, build mass infestor and build slowmoving BL/infestor army in WoL. WE DONT!!! but most other units/strats sucked in WoL so we had to. in HOTS there is the same problem only with other units. now BL/infestor sucks but ultras are a lot better. still zerg has to mass drone and either build mutas or fast hive since SHs, hydras suck and nydus, drop etc. is still too bad. blizz promised to fix T2 zerg...well they fucked it up even more. you need hive more than ever to have a chance. so yeah we will have to wait for LotV rofl.... Oh come on. Very few zerg ever bothered to explore the extent of nydus play. Swarm hosts are awesome. Hydras are now awesome. There is a vast amount of the zerg arsenal that no zerg bothered to exploit because the easiest way to win games was just to build infestors and let them autowin you the game with whatever T3 unit you chose to build. It wasn't just the best strategy, it was virtually unbeatable. It defined the entire game. oh yeah beta is going on since 5 months or so but zergs are too stupid to make hydras, swarmhost, nydus, ovidrop etc. work now that BL/infestor doesnt work anymore. 5 months in which brainless zerg players didnt try that....oh wait actually some zerg players arent mentally retarded like you suppose and tried that stuff and even their opponents say that hydras suck hardcore and SH are a shit all in unit unless supermassed. so please dont troll and say stuff like "hydras are awesome". they are literally the worst unit in the game.
You expect us to believe a 14.5 dps unit that moves at 2.81 (with upgrade) is the worst unit in the game.
Either you have no idea how to optimize their damage output beyond a-move, you use them unescorted or both.
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On February 23 2013 22:06 Mithriel wrote:
As a Terran, i can completely agree hellbat needed to Change. However with this change, the upgrade seems a bit useless? If Terrans want hellbats, they'll produce hellbats from the factory instead of Hellions.
I guess only when someone really over committed to Hellions and they're just taking up supply someone might get the upgrade....
Wait, did I misread something, or can Terrans produce Hellbats from the Factory after they build an Armory and the upgrade only allows Hellions to transform into Hellbats or Hellbats to transform into Hellions?
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EPT
