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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. |
P.S I'm sick of pro Zerg players whining about losing after rushing their deathball into
UNIT COMPOSITIONS SPECIFICALLY BUILT TO KILL THEM!!!
Marauder beats Roach (with stutter step and medivac)
Hellbat beats lings
Both queen and Medivacs have heal spell.
Zergs have mobile "defense" buildings, spore and spine
Zergs have, via creep spread, ability to expand map vision the longer they hold a position.
Terrans have scan...
What do Zerg "pros" do? Rush 3:1 ratio of roach/sling into stutter stepping line of marine/marauders.
Dies, then complains Terran IMBA and they NEED a bigger economy to beat Terran.
Blizzard then buffs Zerg against every viable pre-10min push, giving free spores, OL Speed
Now that they can't buff Zerg anymore, now they resort to nerfing Zerg's opponents.
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On February 23 2013 15:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
P.S I'm sick of pro Zerg players whining about losing after rushing their deathball into
UNIT COMPOSITIONS SPECIFICALLY BUILT TO KILL THEM!!!
Marauder beats Roach (with stutter step and medivac)
Hellbat beats lings
Both queen and Medivacs have heal spell.
Zergs have mobile "defense" buildings, spore and spine
Zergs have, via creep spread, ability to expand map vision the longer they hold a position.
Terrans have scan...
What do Zerg "pros" do? Rush 3:1 ratio of roach/sling into stutter stepping line of marine/marauders.
Dies, then complains Terran IMBA and they NEED a bigger economy to beat Terran.
Blizzard then buffs Zerg against every viable pre-10min push, giving free spores, OL Speed
Now that they can't buff Zerg anymore, now they resort to nerfing Zerg's opponents.
I'm honestly curious as to whether this is a troll or someone who is completely out of touch with reality.
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What I dont understand is that when it comes to Terran "issues" they apply very quick fixes (that sometimes are reverted along the way) while approaching P/Z issues from a mile away.
I think they should just make hellbats a seperate unit OR have them what they use to do i.e. ability to ransform once upgrade finished (requiring an armory).. Its getting way to confusing now.
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It's a necessary change but it's waaaay too expensive. The issue is hellbat timing, not cost. Having an upgrade is a great way to fix it but it shouldn't cost more than 50 gas.
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On February 23 2013 16:12 MilesTeg wrote:
It's a necessary change but it's waaaay too expensive. The issue is hellbat timing, not cost. Having an upgrade is a great way to fix it but it shouldn't cost more than 50 gas.
Why? The unit doesn't cost gas. It's a pretty huge upgrade. I see no issue with the cost.
Edit: Shit concussive is what? 50/50? I have to pay 200/200 to counter that as a toss player.
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On February 23 2013 15:53 BrassMonkey27 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 15:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
P.S I'm sick of pro Zerg players whining about losing after rushing their deathball into
UNIT COMPOSITIONS SPECIFICALLY BUILT TO KILL THEM!!!
Marauder beats Roach (with stutter step and medivac)
Hellbat beats lings
Both queen and Medivacs have heal spell.
Zergs have mobile "defense" buildings, spore and spine
Zergs have, via creep spread, ability to expand map vision the longer they hold a position.
Terrans have scan...
What do Zerg "pros" do? Rush 3:1 ratio of roach/sling into stutter stepping line of marine/marauders.
Dies, then complains Terran IMBA and they NEED a bigger economy to beat Terran.
Blizzard then buffs Zerg against every viable pre-10min push, giving free spores, OL Speed
Now that they can't buff Zerg anymore, now they resort to nerfing Zerg's opponents. I'm honestly curious as to whether this is a troll or someone who is completely out of touch with reality.
He's lost touch with reality. There are a few like him in in team liquid, eventually you learn to just skip their posts.
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On February 23 2013 15:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Blizzard then buffs Zerg against every viable pre-10min push, giving free spores, OL Speed
Now that they can't buff Zerg anymore, now they resort to nerfing Zerg's opponents.
I think you've seriously failed to appreciate just how much Hellbats, Widow Mines and Reapers have distored TvZ, each one of those units are/were poorly designed and virtually forced Zerg into Roach openings.
The main balancing issue in TvZ from WOL to HOTS was the Infestor, which was nerfed, and giving Terrans a cost efficient end game composition. The Raven is about where it should be, but if Blizzard would've focued on making the Ghost a playable unit vs Zerg (out Snipe, in Irradiate) instead of wasting time on new, OP units for Terran the game would be so much better off right now.
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On February 23 2013 16:34 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 15:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Blizzard then buffs Zerg against every viable pre-10min push, giving free spores, OL Speed
Now that they can't buff Zerg anymore, now they resort to nerfing Zerg's opponents. I think you've seriously failed to appreciate just how much Hellbats, Widow Mines and Reapers have distored TvZ, each one of those units are/were poorly designed and virtually forced Zerg into Roach openings. The main balancing issue in TvZ from WOL to HOTS was the Infestor, which was nerfed, and giving Terrans a cost efficient end game composition. The Raven is about where it should be, but if Blizzard would've focued on making the Ghost a playable unit vs Zerg (out Snipe, in Irradiate) instead of wasting time on new, OP units for Terran the game would be so much better off right now.
I think it's an interesting note that most Zergs these days complain, not about not being able to win, but being "pigeonholed" into a composition in order to win. "I wish I didn't have to go X comp every game!" Meanwhile, Terran seems to be concerned with being able to win at all.
These couple of patches are just frustrating.
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On February 23 2013 16:14 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 16:12 MilesTeg wrote:
It's a necessary change but it's waaaay too expensive. The issue is hellbat timing, not cost. Having an upgrade is a great way to fix it but it shouldn't cost more than 50 gas. Why? The unit doesn't cost gas. It's a pretty huge upgrade. I see no issue with the cost. Edit: Shit concussive is what? 50/50? I have to pay 200/200 to counter that as a toss player.
probably more like "I have to pay 200/200 to break even as a toss player" would be more accurate
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Get rid of the upgrade, leave it at amory only tech. 2 Helions morph into 1 Hellbat.
Unit cost increased, cargo space explained, straight produced Hellbat is 200 Minerals. HOTS we are good to go.
Oh wait... too hard.
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So, I played a bunch of games on this most recent patch. This upgrade is way too expensive. 150/150 and tech lab time.
This is pitiful. So as a Terran i'm not allowed to attack Zerg pre 8 minutes, but they are allowed to kill me with roach all-ins because i don't have hellbat mode.
Yeah...i expect we'll see the pattern of wings of liberty patching. Nerf Terran repeatedly because Z/Ps "can't deal with the new things" but leave everything that is potent against Terran alone because Terran will "learn to play against it."
It's disgusting.
BTW guys, i love the double standard patching due to whining. It's imbalanced for Terran to do anything early game, but Zerg is allowed to research burrow on tier1 and do random attacks with burrowed roaches and save all their drones with burrow.
Come on...i'm sure some of you find this hilarious in the sad way.
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On February 23 2013 16:48 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 16:34 MoonCricket wrote:On February 23 2013 15:44 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Blizzard then buffs Zerg against every viable pre-10min push, giving free spores, OL Speed
Now that they can't buff Zerg anymore, now they resort to nerfing Zerg's opponents. I think you've seriously failed to appreciate just how much Hellbats, Widow Mines and Reapers have distored TvZ, each one of those units are/were poorly designed and virtually forced Zerg into Roach openings. The main balancing issue in TvZ from WOL to HOTS was the Infestor, which was nerfed, and giving Terrans a cost efficient end game composition. The Raven is about where it should be, but if Blizzard would've focued on making the Ghost a playable unit vs Zerg (out Snipe, in Irradiate) instead of wasting time on new, OP units for Terran the game would be so much better off right now. I think it's an interesting note that most Zergs these days complain, not about not being able to win, but being "pigeonholed" into a composition in order to win. "I wish I didn't have to go X comp every game!" Meanwhile, Terran seems to be concerned with being able to win at all. These couple of patches are just frustrating.
Yup, zergs feel they should be able to defend everything with the comp they want. Roaches 'forces' marauders if terrans go bio and muta 'forces' Thors for mech. Why shouldn't zergs be forced to make roaches now that speedlings have a true hard counter (tanks did a really poor job against lings unless behind buildings)
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On February 23 2013 13:39 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:28 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. One of the best unit in the game you say ? This is so ignorant. You can't even hold-fire or target fire, it's a totally random "unit" that his ruled by your opponent (he's the one who triggers the mine) and by the computer (who choses the target). A code S terran can hardly make it work better than a bronze terran. Widow mines, I predict will have the highest skill ceiling, or the provide top top pros a way to really differentiate themselves from others.The amount of uses people will come up with this unit go beyond any of our imagination s IMO. And i'm calling it now, because so many newer/lower lvl players just see the obvious limitations of this unit, like if unprotected they can be made useless for 40 seconds just by 1 unit activating it..they will be all the more ecstatic when players like mkp/flash use them in smart/effective/creative ways. All sorts of sick micro/positioning/repositioning of mines..
Widow Mines are like Banelings ... it is the DEFENDER who has to micro and learn to deal with it correctly or else they deal huge amounts of damage. That is a terrible thing for a combat unit and it should be the other way round. You can tweak the efficiency of the Widow Mine a bit, but that is marginal compared to the "noob or pro defender?" bit.
Thus the Widow Mine will probably make Terrans in low leagues rather more powerful than they "deserve".
For the Battle Hellion this is totally different, because you can use your own skill to use drops and multitasking to be more effective than simply a-moving into a base, but that was considered too strong and got nerfed. But was it nerfed in the right area? I dont think so.
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On February 23 2013 14:38 avilo wrote:
If you guys want the three biggest balance issues with the game right now across all 3 races, here they are:
1) Tempest too supply efficient/too much HP. Needs to be back to original 6 supply for TvP/ZvP lategame.
2) Hellbat needs to not be able to be healed and be turned back into a mech unit. Affects TvZ in Zergs favor, affects mech TvP in Terrans favor (ever so slightly on both of those).
3) TvP early game is utterly advantage for Protoss currently. The oracle able to burst down workers so quickly, along with force 300 minerals in missile turrets means not only can oracles sometimes get a freewin, but it is completely safe due to 300 minerals in missile turrets = 1 nexus = planetary nexus from mothership core. There are also a myriad of other all-ins, DT, blink stalker, etc. that are made better with the mothership core. Terran only has 1/1/1 (planetary nexus freewins vs this) and 1 rax FE (you can die to any all-in or be put behind for free due to oracles).
That's about it. The rest can be solved by players imo.
agreed, especially for point 3. not saying protoss is imbalanced early game, but it's too coinflippy right now.
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On February 23 2013 17:19 avilo wrote:
So, I played a bunch of games on this most recent patch. This upgrade is way too expensive. 150/150 and tech lab time.
This is pitiful. So as a Terran i'm not allowed to attack Zerg pre 8 minutes, but they are allowed to kill me with roach all-ins because i don't have hellbat mode.
Yeah...i expect we'll see the pattern of wings of liberty patching. Nerf Terran repeatedly because Z/Ps "can't deal with the new things" but leave everything that is potent against Terran alone because Terran will "learn to play against it."
It's disgusting.
BTW guys, i love the double standard patching due to whining. It's imbalanced for Terran to do anything early game, but Zerg is allowed to research burrow on tier1 and do random attacks with burrowed roaches and save all their drones with burrow.
Come on...i'm sure some of you find this hilarious in the sad way.
Build a fucking tank you clown if you think Zerg is going to Roach all in you. Christ on a Rubber crutch its not like you have to research siege mode anymore is it!!
User was warned for this post
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On February 23 2013 14:38 avilo wrote:
If you guys want the three biggest balance issues with the game right now across all 3 races, here they are:
1) Tempest too supply efficient/too much HP. Needs to be back to original 6 supply for TvP/ZvP lategame.
2) Hellbat needs to not be able to be healed and be turned back into a mech unit. Affects TvZ in Zergs favor, affects mech TvP in Terrans favor (ever so slightly on both of those).
3) TvP early game is utterly advantage for Protoss currently. The oracle able to burst down workers so quickly, along with force 300 minerals in missile turrets means not only can oracles sometimes get a freewin, but it is completely safe due to 300 minerals in missile turrets = 1 nexus = planetary nexus from mothership core. There are also a myriad of other all-ins, DT, blink stalker, etc. that are made better with the mothership core. Terran only has 1/1/1 (planetary nexus freewins vs this) and 1 rax FE (you can die to any all-in or be put behind for free due to oracles).
That's about it. The rest can be solved by players imo.
hä? In which way is it good for zerg that the hellbat is biological?
Because you can NP it and then heal it with Queens?
Because if a Protoss player lifts the Terran Hellbat with a Phoenix over a Zerg spore crawler, the spore crawler does extra damage?
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On February 23 2013 17:29 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 17:19 avilo wrote:
So, I played a bunch of games on this most recent patch. This upgrade is way too expensive. 150/150 and tech lab time.
This is pitiful. So as a Terran i'm not allowed to attack Zerg pre 8 minutes, but they are allowed to kill me with roach all-ins because i don't have hellbat mode.
Yeah...i expect we'll see the pattern of wings of liberty patching. Nerf Terran repeatedly because Z/Ps "can't deal with the new things" but leave everything that is potent against Terran alone because Terran will "learn to play against it."
It's disgusting.
BTW guys, i love the double standard patching due to whining. It's imbalanced for Terran to do anything early game, but Zerg is allowed to research burrow on tier1 and do random attacks with burrowed roaches and save all their drones with burrow.
Come on...i'm sure some of you find this hilarious in the sad way. Build a fucking tank you clown if you think Zerg is going to Roach all in you. Christ on a Rubber crutch its not like you have to research siege mode anymore is it!!
Why arent Terrans rushing tanks or tank-drop then? The answer is easy: they arent really worth it because some Zerglings easily kill them.
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On February 23 2013 17:29 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 17:19 avilo wrote:
So, I played a bunch of games on this most recent patch. This upgrade is way too expensive. 150/150 and tech lab time.
This is pitiful. So as a Terran i'm not allowed to attack Zerg pre 8 minutes, but they are allowed to kill me with roach all-ins because i don't have hellbat mode.
Yeah...i expect we'll see the pattern of wings of liberty patching. Nerf Terran repeatedly because Z/Ps "can't deal with the new things" but leave everything that is potent against Terran alone because Terran will "learn to play against it."
It's disgusting.
BTW guys, i love the double standard patching due to whining. It's imbalanced for Terran to do anything early game, but Zerg is allowed to research burrow on tier1 and do random attacks with burrowed roaches and save all their drones with burrow.
Come on...i'm sure some of you find this hilarious in the sad way. Build a fucking tank you clown if you think Zerg is going to Roach all in you. Christ on a Rubber crutch its not like you have to research siege mode anymore is it!!
I used to whine against Bio and Terrans in particular when I was toss.. but when I switched to T, I realized that I've been whining against the race that requires BY FAR the most micro and multitasking skill.
Try it too, you'll see. (this is actually not an insult or anything, I really WISH you would try and realize it)
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On February 23 2013 17:19 avilo wrote:
So, I played a bunch of games on this most recent patch. This upgrade is way too expensive. 150/150 and tech lab time.
This is pitiful. So as a Terran i'm not allowed to attack Zerg pre 8 minutes, but they are allowed to kill me with roach all-ins because i don't have hellbat mode.
Yeah...i expect we'll see the pattern of wings of liberty patching. Nerf Terran repeatedly because Z/Ps "can't deal with the new things" but leave everything that is potent against Terran alone because Terran will "learn to play against it."
It's disgusting.
BTW guys, i love the double standard patching due to whining. It's imbalanced for Terran to do anything early game, but Zerg is allowed to research burrow on tier1 and do random attacks with burrowed roaches and save all their drones with burrow.
Come on...i'm sure some of you find this hilarious in the sad way.
You got mines and free siege tech, so it's actually much easier to defend roach allins compared to Wol.
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This change at least makes hellions viable how it is supposed to be. As i see it, hellions - fast harassment unit, hellbat - tanky Aoe defensive unit.
From zerg's perspective i wish they could change:
- Increase Viper's spell range
- Merge both hydra upgrades into one.
- Make medivac speed boost cost 25 energy.
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On February 23 2013 17:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 14:38 avilo wrote:
If you guys want the three biggest balance issues with the game right now across all 3 races, here they are:
1) Tempest too supply efficient/too much HP. Needs to be back to original 6 supply for TvP/ZvP lategame.
2) Hellbat needs to not be able to be healed and be turned back into a mech unit. Affects TvZ in Zergs favor, affects mech TvP in Terrans favor (ever so slightly on both of those).
3) TvP early game is utterly advantage for Protoss currently. The oracle able to burst down workers so quickly, along with force 300 minerals in missile turrets means not only can oracles sometimes get a freewin, but it is completely safe due to 300 minerals in missile turrets = 1 nexus = planetary nexus from mothership core. There are also a myriad of other all-ins, DT, blink stalker, etc. that are made better with the mothership core. Terran only has 1/1/1 (planetary nexus freewins vs this) and 1 rax FE (you can die to any all-in or be put behind for free due to oracles).
That's about it. The rest can be solved by players imo. hä? In which way is it good for zerg that the hellbat is biological? Because you can NP it and then heal it with Queens? Because if a Protoss player lifts the Terran Hellbat with a Phoenix over a Zerg spore crawler, the spore crawler does extra damage?
Because medivacs cannot heal them, helps especially with hellbat drops.
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EPT
