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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. |
On February 23 2013 13:28 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. One of the best unit in the game you say ? This is so ignorant. You can't even hold-fire or target fire, it's a totally random "unit" that his ruled by your opponent (he's the one who triggers the mine) and by the computer (who choses the target). A code S terran can hardly make it work better than a bronze terran.
I think the widow mine is bad because of the lack of a "hold fire" command, but you actually can select the target in the 1s it takes to activate the mine. It's not very practical, but it's still possible.
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On February 23 2013 13:24 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. I know you are a pro player. But how could prove that it is still terran favored only after a few hours with this patch? Many zerg said this about queen patch as well and look how that turned out. Also, did you think WoL was zerg favored at the end? Or you think 'the better player won'?
All zergs know that ZvT has been zerg favored for months in WOL. It's still terran favored because hellbat rushes weren't even that good before. No good zerg was having trouble with hellbat rushing. If terran opened 1 base hellion, that's just a bad build, and if they go 1 rax CC into hellion or CC first into hellion you can scout and have either roaches or banelings out easily by the time they do a hellbat attack. Of course this patch will make zerg slightly stronger vs terran since zerg can now play a bit greedier, but the reason it's going to still be terran favored is because of medivac speed boost being so strong (huge speed boost and very short cd), siege mode being free, and widow mines, along with fungal being much worse against terran.
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On February 23 2013 13:24 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:11 Sated wrote:On February 23 2013 13:02 oxxo wrote:On February 23 2013 12:57 Sated wrote:On February 23 2013 12:53 aksfjh wrote:On February 23 2013 12:43 vthree wrote:On February 23 2013 12:36 nkr wrote:
So many people who want race X to be OP for a while because race Y has recently been OP in WoL.
What about balance? I think even most terrans agree that hell bats needed change. But tech lab + 150/150 + 110 seconds? It just screams 'Queen patch' to me. Blizzard over reacting to early game strategies and just let the late game stuff unchecked. I would be find if they made this change but also said they would be looking into terran late game (which is still crap). I think most Terrans agree that it was something to keep an eye on. We know how powerful hellbats are, but we also look around and see how powerful skytoss is, and how little Zerg is willing to use their new units and upgrades in their matchups (outside of mass ultra). These are all things we should be watching and analyzing to see if minor changes need to be made after a large sample of changes. However, this is just more of the same that we saw in WoL. "Let's wait and see..." for potential Protoss and Zerg nerfs, "OMG TERRAN IS BREAKING OUR GAME FIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXIT!!!" for Terran nerfs. You're really complaining about time-frames? It took GomTvTvTvTvTvTvT happening before Blizzard started taking a serious look at Terran in WoL (outside of obviously broken strategies like 5 Rax Reaper et. al.) I'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. Terran nerfs happened frequently in reaction to the meta. Which was dumb because the biggest issue was the maps. Balancing based on Steppes of War was a mistake. You're being delusional and you're in possession of a selective memory. Obvious changes to the other races were treated in much the same way once pro-level play showed that problems were present. For example, Templar and their Amulets. i guess you blacked out from like may 2012 until now huh? KA was the same... was collosus voidray? no, it was given time to develop. eventually people realized it was really bad against infestors, and now we see a lot of prism harss with grav. boost. i think that style was worth the wait to develop. what about the roach ling bane? or the speedling timing? those were just as common and likely had similar win % to those earlier terran builds (okay.. maybe not proxy 11's on 60 second rax speed on all medium-small maps). terrans adapted and added depots EARLIER on the lowground, and in more intelligent locations, in front of bunkers, bunkers not being stupidly exposed out in the front but near the ramp with less surface area for lings (also forcing damage on roaches if they try to run by) etc. they also (you may have not noticed. i am a race picker/random so i have noticed) have all learned how to micro scvs vs banes/ling all ins and things like that its interesting that you call it selective memory.. you can literally look back at the tournaments where certain builds came to prominence, and see that quickly after a patch was made "slayersblueflame = mlg anaheim" "gsl the first season forgg was there but i dont remember t.t = hellion banshee into fast 3 CC" (was later nerfed by giving queens range. terrans could expand too safely behind the hellions/banshee and always force roaches) i think a lot of it was justified, but its hardly fair to call this guy delusional. He's pretty much calling it like it is, but putting the maps twist on it (which i dont agree with. map sizes vary a lot but 11 11 was far too powerful on every map size in the terran vs zerg match)
I agree. Queen patch destroyed Terran w/l against Zerg and they haven't won a GSL since. The w/l is significantly has the highest gap (moreso than any other matchup). I enjoy how Terran is quickly judged as OP in a 2 week time frame with such a small amount of games played - Code S players are still finishing WoL. I don't know what GM's Blizzard are polling (mid, low level?) most are barcoded anyway. It just seems like a double standard to me that Blizzard waits 7 months to realize there is an issue with the infestor and finally addresses it in HoTS. And they don't connect the dots when new Zergs exploded on the scene after the queen patch winning many large NA and EU tournaments. Instead of calling it OP, it was classified as "new emerging talent."
I'm not against reworking the hellbat if it is too strong, but I criticize Blizzard for making two drastic changes to the unit in a two week time frame when they took months re-evaluating other races. Remember, Terran really didn't get any new units in the expansion. The Window mine is the most notable but not a game changer late game like a Tempest or Viper/Swarm Host; instead they just repackaged the same units and put a crappy "hope you feel better" bow on it.
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On February 23 2013 13:28 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. One of the best unit in the game you say ? This is so ignorant. You can't even hold-fire or target fire, it's a totally random "unit" that his ruled by your opponent (he's the one who triggers the mine) and by the computer (who choses the target). A code S terran can hardly make it work better than a bronze terran.
No its you who is ignorant. I'm living with two professional terran players (Forgg and Dayshi) and we are all playing HOTS full time. Both of them think that widow mine is one of the best units in the game for terran in TvZ. And saying its totally random and ruled by his opponent is completely untrue. Widow mines have a roughly 1 second delay between when a unit comes in range of it and when it goes off. You can't usually set widow mines off with a few lings because bio will kill them in the 1 second before the widow mine attacks the units. Besides this, you can target fire units with the widow mines to achieve maximum damage.
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United States7166 Posts
On February 23 2013 13:28 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. One of the best unit in the game you say ? This is so ignorant. You can't even hold-fire or target fire, it's a totally random "unit" that his ruled by your opponent (he's the one who triggers the mine) and by the computer (who choses the target). A code S terran can hardly make it work better than a bronze terran.
Widow mines, I predict will have the highest skill ceiling, or the provide top top pros a way to really differentiate themselves from others.The amount of uses people will come up with this unit go beyond any of our imagination s IMO. And i'm calling it now, because so many newer/lower lvl players just see the obvious limitations of this unit, like if unprotected they can be made useless for 40 seconds just by 1 unit activating it..they will be all the more ecstatic when players like mkp/flash use them in smart/effective/creative ways. All sorts of sick micro/positioning/repositioning of mines..
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On February 23 2013 13:34 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:24 vthree wrote:On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. I know you are a pro player. But how could prove that it is still terran favored only after a few hours with this patch? Many zerg said this about queen patch as well and look how that turned out. Also, did you think WoL was zerg favored at the end? Or you think 'the better player won'? All zergs know that ZvT has been zerg favored for months in WOL. It's still terran favored because hellbat rushes weren't even that good before. No good zerg was having trouble with hellbat rushing. If terran opened 1 base hellion, that's just a bad build, and if they go 1 rax CC into hellion or CC first into hellion you can scout and have either roaches or banelings out easily by the time they do a hellbat attack. Of course this patch will make zerg slightly stronger vs terran since zerg can now play a bit greedier, but the reason it's going to still be terran favored is because of medivac speed boost being so strong (huge speed boost and very short cd), siege mode being free, and widow mines, along with fungal being much worse against terran.
I dunno. Most pro zergs seemed to tout the 'the better player won' for a long long time in WoL.
As for zerg getting 'slightly' stronger vs terran since they can now play a bit greedier. Isn't this the same as the Queen patch? All that patch really did was allow zergs to play greedier and looked what happened.
Being able to play greedier in the early game has HUGE ramifications in the mid/late game because everything snowballs. Hellbats were a way to force the roach warren from zergs. Everything else can be dealt with by speedlings, Queens and a couple spores.
Many people go on about how terran has the most diverse openings which is true. But if the same BO/comp from zerg can counter most of them, how advantageous is it really to have that many openings?
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On February 23 2013 13:30 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:20 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. I'm talking mainly early harassment and supply level requirement. It's a large investment to use them early on for anything. Reaper? DPS a joke. Banshee? No evo requirement and queendralisk. Now we're just left with good old crappy hellions. Reapers are super good vs zerg early. Their DPs is not an issue, they never before speedlings out, and their regen allows them to quite easily beat queens. There's a reason that 9/10 terrans I face go reaper they're anything but useless and proxy reapers are a huge threat for zergs too. Banshees are still useful vs zerg, its not like the only thing stopping zerg from not taking any damage from banshees was evo chamber requirement.. Hellion 2 banshee will always be useful with good control. Spores can't cover all, esp since most zergs go for 3 base. Hellions are far from crappy wtf..
I open reaper expand versus many Zerg but I dont make more than one. I don't call 1-2 drone kills harassment - maybe map control but it doesn't put the Zerg behind. And, yes, versus 6 queendralisks openers with transfuse (very common)helions are pretty crappy.
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On February 23 2013 13:39 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:28 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. One of the best unit in the game you say ? This is so ignorant. You can't even hold-fire or target fire, it's a totally random "unit" that his ruled by your opponent (he's the one who triggers the mine) and by the computer (who choses the target). A code S terran can hardly make it work better than a bronze terran. Widow mines, I predict will have the highest skill ceiling, or the provide top top pros a way to really differentiate themselves from others.The amount of uses people will come up with this unit go beyond any of our imagination s IMO. And i'm calling it now, because so many newer/lower lvl players just see the obvious limitations of this unit, like if unprotected they can be made useless for 40 seconds just by 1 unit activating it..they will be all the more ecstatic when players like mkp/flash use them in smart/effective/creative ways. All sorts of sick micro/positioning/repositioning of mines..
Maybe. I feel like a rat in a maze with several paths to find the cheese and Blizzard has put road blocks to all, once valid, paths except one - the Window Mine. The question now is, "Do we have any option but the Window Mine" for early harass. I suppose there is always WoL openers - but this is HoTs. Aren't we looking for something new?
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The hellbat is such an awkward unit now... they should just remove it and give Terran something else lol
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It isn't that big a change for most builds. it just helps with being able to pump hellions to be your future hellbats while waiting for the armory to build.
I still think you can hit potent hellbat timings, perhaps people will make mines instead of hellions while building the armory? After that just pump hellbats as normal. The hellion contain into hellbat finishing blow was just to seamless and the upgrade is good to at least delay that transition.
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On February 23 2013 10:09 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 10:04 ssg wrote:
Great, Terran needed another useless unit. Great, another terran bitching before trying out the changes. It's still strong as hell. It still decimates lings/zealots/ marines. It's still good for drops. It's still the same fucking unit. It just takes longer to get. Oh no, you can't win games at 7 minutes by having 8 of them anymore. Good.
Marines handily counter hellbats with stutter step micro.
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On February 23 2013 13:39 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:28 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. One of the best unit in the game you say ? This is so ignorant. You can't even hold-fire or target fire, it's a totally random "unit" that his ruled by your opponent (he's the one who triggers the mine) and by the computer (who choses the target). A code S terran can hardly make it work better than a bronze terran. No its you who is ignorant. I'm living with two professional terran players (Forgg and Dayshi) and we are all playing HOTS full time. Both of them think that widow mine is one of the best units in the game for terran in TvZ. And saying its totally random and ruled by his opponent is completely untrue. Widow mines have a roughly 1 second delay between when a unit comes in range of it and when it goes off. You can't usually set widow mines off with a few lings because bio will kill them in the 1 second before the widow mine attacks the units. Besides this, you can target fire units with the widow mines to achieve maximum damage.
whenever I try to do that it ignores what I do o.O (it just goes and kills the closest unit)
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On February 23 2013 09:34 juicyjames wrote:
PROTOSS
Carrier
Interceptors can now change targets when they are in leash range.
wow that's a nice change.
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150/150, seriously? They really need to revert the cargo change.
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I hate how much of a mess this hellbat tech path is
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On February 23 2013 13:39 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:28 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. One of the best unit in the game you say ? This is so ignorant. You can't even hold-fire or target fire, it's a totally random "unit" that his ruled by your opponent (he's the one who triggers the mine) and by the computer (who choses the target). A code S terran can hardly make it work better than a bronze terran. No its you who is ignorant. I'm living with two professional terran players (Forgg and Dayshi) and we are all playing HOTS full time. Both of them think that widow mine is one of the best units in the game for terran in TvZ. And saying its totally random and ruled by his opponent is completely untrue. Widow mines have a roughly 1 second delay between when a unit comes in range of it and when it goes off. You can't usually set widow mines off with a few lings because bio will kill them in the 1 second before the widow mine attacks the units. Besides this, you can target fire units with the widow mines to achieve maximum damage.
How is that completely untrue ? Let's imagine you can actually find the time to target fire during that 1sec timing window, it's still rely on your opponent to trigger it or not, he's the one who decides "hey, you've 1sec to decide who dies or the computer will do it for you", that's what i'm referring to when calling it random: it's out of your hand to decide if you want to use that fucking missile, unlike the baneling. In BW it's fine because mines are free, take no supply and no production time, but in sc2 you end up with a unit that can be triggered by a 0 supply unit (changeling finally have a better role?) and the mine goes inactive for 40 sec. Killing off the zerg unit that baits the mine sounds do-able in theory, but you can hardly clean the whole area in < 1sec in most situations.
From what I've seen so far, using the mine does not require great skills from the terran. Or, it takes way too much skill because of that short 1 sec window, but I don't see how pros could even think about manually targetting during 200/200 battles. They won't and the missile will strike randomly. The mine can deal great damage, no doubt about it, even way too much in some situations and can be game breaking. Strong unit ? Yes it is in some cases, but a good one ? In its current state, I say no, it can be improved because right now the terran makes close to no decision once the mine is burrowed.
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On February 23 2013 10:03 Everlong wrote:
Patch 16 - Siege tech research at fusion core..
"We still see Tanks shooting from time to time in TvZ, because Vipers are missing their Clouds sometimes"
Hahaha. With Blizzard's track record who knows what they could throw out.
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They are still too tanky and still do too much damage for a unit that costs 100 minerals.
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Are they keeping the cargo change as well? Honestly they should revert the cargo space change and just switch Hellbats back to mechanical. It doesn't make any sense that the unit can be healed by medivacs.. I know they want to buff bio with all the changes in HOTS but having hellbats as biological does not make any sense to me.
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On February 23 2013 12:17 vthree wrote:
So when terrans lost horribly against 6 Queen openings, they whined but were told to adapt and play better. Then 6 months lately, blizzard makes minor nerfs to infestors.
And when zergs lost horribly against hell bat openings, they whined and Blizzard nerfs the shit out of hell bats twice within a week.
Quite the pattern eh? And with catz leading the charge on hellbat's being "op" (they aren't) it'll be interesting to see if blizzard continues on in the "nerf everything Terran direction."
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EPT
