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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. |
On February 23 2013 12:46 neoghaleon55 wrote:
They said this is the most pressing issue that requires immediate attention.
Hopefully, Blizz will consider the other broken aspects of the game next.
Would probably make terrans feel better if they list out the other aspects they are looking into. They just nerfed the cargo requirement recently and then do this? It just feels like they are always looking at terran early game first for nerfs.
I mean Blizzard said they want to make TvP mech viable and yet they created air toss.
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On February 23 2013 12:43 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 12:36 nkr wrote:
So many people who want race X to be OP for a while because race Y has recently been OP in WoL.
What about balance? I think even most terrans agree that hell bats needed change. But tech lab + 150/150 + 110 seconds? It just screams 'Queen patch' to me. Blizzard over reacting to early game strategies and just let the late game stuff unchecked. I would be find if they made this change but also said they would be looking into terran late game (which is still crap).
I think most Terrans agree that it was something to keep an eye on. We know how powerful hellbats are, but we also look around and see how powerful skytoss is, and how little Zerg is willing to use their new units and upgrades in their matchups (outside of mass ultra). These are all things we should be watching and analyzing to see if minor changes need to be made after a large sample of changes.
However, this is just more of the same that we saw in WoL. "Let's wait and see..." for potential Protoss and Zerg nerfs, "OMG TERRAN IS BREAKING OUR GAME FIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXIT!!!" for Terran nerfs.
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On February 23 2013 12:50 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 12:46 neoghaleon55 wrote:
They said this is the most pressing issue that requires immediate attention.
Hopefully, Blizz will consider the other broken aspects of the game next. Would probably make terrans feel better if they list out the other aspects they are looking into. They just nerfed the cargo requirement recently and then do this? It just feels like they are always looking at terran early game first for nerfs. I mean Blizzard said they want to make TvP mech viable and yet they created air toss.
i think the shared armor upgrade and high impact payload were meant to help deal with that? HIP seems pretty weak from what i've seen so i wouldn't be surprised if it got buffed eventually, but they've obviously got their eyes on this issue. i think they're nervous to shut air toss down too hard cos then pvt just becomes wings of liberty pvt plus widow mines and helbats - an across the board net nerf for protoss in that match-up. they'll have to work out solutions for this that don't involve making air toss pointless.
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On February 23 2013 12:57 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 12:53 aksfjh wrote:On February 23 2013 12:43 vthree wrote:On February 23 2013 12:36 nkr wrote:
So many people who want race X to be OP for a while because race Y has recently been OP in WoL.
What about balance? I think even most terrans agree that hell bats needed change. But tech lab + 150/150 + 110 seconds? It just screams 'Queen patch' to me. Blizzard over reacting to early game strategies and just let the late game stuff unchecked. I would be find if they made this change but also said they would be looking into terran late game (which is still crap). I think most Terrans agree that it was something to keep an eye on. We know how powerful hellbats are, but we also look around and see how powerful skytoss is, and how little Zerg is willing to use their new units and upgrades in their matchups (outside of mass ultra). These are all things we should be watching and analyzing to see if minor changes need to be made after a large sample of changes. However, this is just more of the same that we saw in WoL. "Let's wait and see..." for potential Protoss and Zerg nerfs, "OMG TERRAN IS BREAKING OUR GAME FIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXIT!!!" for Terran nerfs. You're really complaining about time-frames? It took GomTvTvTvTvTvTvT happening before Blizzard started taking a serious look at Terran in WoL (outside of obviously broken strategies like 5 Rax Reaper et. al.)
And there were several terran patches during the era (ghosts, barracks, hellions)... How long between queen patch and infestor patch?
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On February 23 2013 12:57 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 12:53 aksfjh wrote:On February 23 2013 12:43 vthree wrote:On February 23 2013 12:36 nkr wrote:
So many people who want race X to be OP for a while because race Y has recently been OP in WoL.
What about balance? I think even most terrans agree that hell bats needed change. But tech lab + 150/150 + 110 seconds? It just screams 'Queen patch' to me. Blizzard over reacting to early game strategies and just let the late game stuff unchecked. I would be find if they made this change but also said they would be looking into terran late game (which is still crap). I think most Terrans agree that it was something to keep an eye on. We know how powerful hellbats are, but we also look around and see how powerful skytoss is, and how little Zerg is willing to use their new units and upgrades in their matchups (outside of mass ultra). These are all things we should be watching and analyzing to see if minor changes need to be made after a large sample of changes. However, this is just more of the same that we saw in WoL. "Let's wait and see..." for potential Protoss and Zerg nerfs, "OMG TERRAN IS BREAKING OUR GAME FIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXIT!!!" for Terran nerfs. You're really complaining about time-frames? It took GomTvTvTvTvTvTvT happening before Blizzard started taking a serious look at Terran in WoL (outside of obviously broken strategies like 5 Rax Reaper et. al.)
I'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. Terran nerfs happened frequently in reaction to the meta. Which was dumb because the biggest issue was the maps. Balancing based on Steppes of War was a mistake.
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Good.
Now do something about Mutas!
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On February 23 2013 12:20 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 12:15 Sated wrote:On February 23 2013 10:37 SHODAN wrote:On February 23 2013 10:30 Qikz wrote:On February 23 2013 10:27 SHODAN wrote:
Why the fuck did they say "we want to make mech viable vP". It's 3 weeks before release and nobody in their right mind is going mech. WoL siege tanks are not strong enough to be a core unit vP. Hellbats and thors remain these unmicro-able, silly a-move units. STC is going mech on his stream, so is Goody. People are doing it, just not in the runs ups to tournaments. No, no they are not. This is what mech looks like: ![[image loading]](http://www.thinkdigit.com/FCKeditor/uploads/Brood%20Wars%20-%20Terran%20Siege%20Tanks%20get%20to%20see%20what%20a%20Zealot%20dropped%20on%20them%20feels%20like.jpg) Mass hellbat/thor/medivacs marching in a ball across the map is not mech. Mech = Mechanical. Just because you have some retarded BW definition of what Mech is does not change the fact that Mech is short for Mechanical. If you don't like it, GO PLAY FUCKING BW. Mech is a simple way to express an idea of position based play. No one actually cares whether the units are mechanical or biological, they just want the playstyle that came with BW mech.
the play style that came with mech is doable in sc2 imo, especially with the hots changes to mech but this is theorycrafting of a noob player. i am masters but this means nothing in the grander scheme of things. also, we cant just go play broodwar because theres way less games, most of them are cheating anyways, the players that still play it are lightyears ahead of me at this point even w/ my moderate experience in bw so it's not going to be fun, ETC.
theres just notre ally a reason to play anymore, i dont win because sc2 has cripple my mechanics, lol. mech wasn't unstopppably strong in bw but had solid timings - i wish this was the case for sc2. The reason i dont play mech as terran anymore is because its far too reactive of a style for a game like sc2. Just think about it.. Why spend hours of frustration analyzing when you should have made the most minute composition changes against a race that can literally warp in or morph in 20 units at a time, a NEW composition for you to tackle. Its just far more difficult because shit is made SO FAST in this game and the battles happen SO FUCKING FAST .
edit: the question isnt "can mech work" cause yes it obviously can. it has all the tools (or the starport combination with it does) to stop all the threats you can beat it with, but its more of a "Why even?" because its way harder question
edit;
what bothers me the most having played this patch a bit is that i can no longer do cc first or rax fe > hellion > raxes + ebays + 3rd > armory + medivacs > hellbat marine timing into standard play. it was a really nice bonus to hellions to be able to have a reliable timing attack after a standard opening. right now hellion banshee is getting pulled back to it's main base to defend roaches, in almost every game vs strong zerg players. you often lose hellions to all ins or bad control, this gave me a reason to preserve them and they didn't feel so useless once roaches were out (like useless so where you run in for drones, because they're really just waste of supply and i dont want to have to manage this unit anymore). there is no way i will be researching this upgrade for a timing after opening standard now.......... there is just not enough time, i will die to mutas or collosus or whatever. 150 gas is fucking crazy?>?
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On February 23 2013 13:11 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:02 oxxo wrote:On February 23 2013 12:57 Sated wrote:On February 23 2013 12:53 aksfjh wrote:On February 23 2013 12:43 vthree wrote:On February 23 2013 12:36 nkr wrote:
So many people who want race X to be OP for a while because race Y has recently been OP in WoL.
What about balance? I think even most terrans agree that hell bats needed change. But tech lab + 150/150 + 110 seconds? It just screams 'Queen patch' to me. Blizzard over reacting to early game strategies and just let the late game stuff unchecked. I would be find if they made this change but also said they would be looking into terran late game (which is still crap). I think most Terrans agree that it was something to keep an eye on. We know how powerful hellbats are, but we also look around and see how powerful skytoss is, and how little Zerg is willing to use their new units and upgrades in their matchups (outside of mass ultra). These are all things we should be watching and analyzing to see if minor changes need to be made after a large sample of changes. However, this is just more of the same that we saw in WoL. "Let's wait and see..." for potential Protoss and Zerg nerfs, "OMG TERRAN IS BREAKING OUR GAME FIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXIT!!!" for Terran nerfs. You're really complaining about time-frames? It took GomTvTvTvTvTvTvT happening before Blizzard started taking a serious look at Terran in WoL (outside of obviously broken strategies like 5 Rax Reaper et. al.) I'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. Terran nerfs happened frequently in reaction to the meta. Which was dumb because the biggest issue was the maps. Balancing based on Steppes of War was a mistake. You're being delusional and you're in possession of a selective memory. Obvious changes to the other races were treated in much the same way once pro-level play showed that problems were present. For example, Templar and their Amulets.
Actually, most of the nerfs were pretty quick except for the infestor. Unfortunately, that happened at the end of WoL and is the freshest in our memory.
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Great change.
As for the whole air army thing, vipers continue to be too underused for me to really want to demand changes. Skytoss is definitely really strong, but I've never had anybody use vipers effectively...
That said, if they make a change, they should definitely change blinding cloud to affect EITHER air or spellcasters. I think either of those would be excellent changes.
Also to point out to anybody who might not be aware: You can still make hellbats with a factory and reactor after an armory. You just can't switch back and forth. I don't really see this affecting much macro play. And if you consider it a timing nerf, it's not 110 seconds, its 50 (or 60? However long an armory takes). Because you're delaying your hellbats that long, until you can make them. There's also walk time true, but at least in TvP any early hellbat pressure usually involves a medivac.
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On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere
Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. I've been shut down many times against masters and GM that know had to defend early Hellbat pushes - you just don't take a fast third. But 2 nerfs to the Hellbat in 2 weeks is a little overkill...the unit should just be removed from the game and now we just have Terran WoL units.
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On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play.
Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced.
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On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced.
I'm talking mainly early harassment and supply level requirement. It's a large investment to use them early on for anything. Reaper? DPS a joke. Banshee? No evo requirement and queendralisk. Now we're just left with good old crappy hellions.
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On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. I've been shut down many times against masters and GM that know had to defend early Hellbat pushes - you just don't take a fast third. But 2 nerfs to the Hellbat in 2 weeks is a little overkill...the unit should just be removed from the game and now we just have Terran WoL units.
That's why you don't drop widow mines... it hardly ever works. Burrow time takes way too long, and the splash radius isn't very high. The hellbat itself isn't really being nerfed that badly. It's great for macro play, and it was really really broken from a ZvT standpoint. You literally could not ever make lings. Normal hellions would instantly go from map control to flat out kill the zerg. It was silly. And personally this doesn't really affect PvT.
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On February 23 2013 13:11 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:02 oxxo wrote:On February 23 2013 12:57 Sated wrote:On February 23 2013 12:53 aksfjh wrote:On February 23 2013 12:43 vthree wrote:On February 23 2013 12:36 nkr wrote:
So many people who want race X to be OP for a while because race Y has recently been OP in WoL.
What about balance? I think even most terrans agree that hell bats needed change. But tech lab + 150/150 + 110 seconds? It just screams 'Queen patch' to me. Blizzard over reacting to early game strategies and just let the late game stuff unchecked. I would be find if they made this change but also said they would be looking into terran late game (which is still crap). I think most Terrans agree that it was something to keep an eye on. We know how powerful hellbats are, but we also look around and see how powerful skytoss is, and how little Zerg is willing to use their new units and upgrades in their matchups (outside of mass ultra). These are all things we should be watching and analyzing to see if minor changes need to be made after a large sample of changes. However, this is just more of the same that we saw in WoL. "Let's wait and see..." for potential Protoss and Zerg nerfs, "OMG TERRAN IS BREAKING OUR GAME FIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXITFIXIT!!!" for Terran nerfs. You're really complaining about time-frames? It took GomTvTvTvTvTvTvT happening before Blizzard started taking a serious look at Terran in WoL (outside of obviously broken strategies like 5 Rax Reaper et. al.) I'm sorry but that's just plain wrong. Terran nerfs happened frequently in reaction to the meta. Which was dumb because the biggest issue was the maps. Balancing based on Steppes of War was a mistake. You're being delusional and you're in possession of a selective memory. Obvious changes to the other races were treated in much the same way once pro-level play showed that problems were present. For example, Templar and their Amulets.
i guess you blacked out from like may 2012 until now huh?
KA was the same... was collosus voidray? no, it was given time to develop. eventually people realized it was really bad against infestors, and now we see a lot of prism harss with grav. boost. i think that style was worth the wait to develop. what about the roach ling bane? or the speedling timing? those were just as common and likely had similar win % to those earlier terran builds (okay.. maybe not proxy 11's on 60 second rax speed on all medium-small maps). terrans adapted and added depots EARLIER on the lowground, and in more intelligent locations, in front of bunkers, bunkers not being stupidly exposed out in the front but near the ramp with less surface area for lings (also forcing damage on roaches if they try to run by) etc. they also (you may have not noticed. i am a race picker/random so i have noticed) have all learned how to micro scvs vs banes/ling all ins and things like that
its interesting that you call it selective memory.. you can literally look back at the tournaments where certain builds came to prominence, and see that quickly after a patch was made "slayersblueflame = mlg anaheim" "gsl the first season forgg was there but i dont remember t.t = hellion banshee into fast 3 CC" (was later nerfed by giving queens range. terrans could expand too safely behind the hellions/banshee and always force roaches)
i think a lot of it was justified, but its hardly fair to call this guy delusional. He's pretty much calling it like it is, but putting the maps twist on it (which i dont agree with. map sizes vary a lot but 11 11 was far too powerful on every map size in the terran vs zerg match)
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On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced.
I know you are a pro player. But how could prove that it is still terran favored only after a few hours with this patch? Many zerg said this about queen patch as well and look how that turned out.
Also, did you think WoL was zerg favored at the end? Or you think 'the better player won'?
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On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced.
One of the best unit in the game you say ? This is so ignorant. You can't even hold-fire or target fire, it's a totally random "unit" that his ruled by your opponent (he's the one who triggers the mine) and by the computer (who choses the target). A code S terran can hardly make it work better than a bronze terran.
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United States7166 Posts
On February 23 2013 13:20 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. I'm talking mainly early harassment and supply level requirement. It's a large investment to use them early on for anything. Reaper? DPS a joke. Banshee? No evo requirement and queendralisk. Now we're just left with good old crappy hellions.
Reapers are super good vs zerg early. Their DPs is not an issue, they never before speedlings out, and their regen allows them to quite easily beat queens. There's a reason that 9/10 terrans I face go reaper they're anything but useless and proxy reapers are a huge threat for zergs too. Banshees are still useful vs zerg, its not like the only thing stopping zerg from not taking any damage from banshees was evo chamber requirement.. Hellion 2 banshee will always be useful with good control. Spores can't cover all, esp since most zergs go for 3 base. Hellions are far from crappy wtf..
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On February 23 2013 13:28 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 13:17 goswser wrote:On February 23 2013 13:16 SirPinky wrote:On February 23 2013 09:48 shin_toss wrote:
Zergs rejoicing everywhere Of course Zergs are rejoicing everywhere it's the most popular and over played race out there. Get ready for never ending ZvZ and PvZ on ladder again - just like WoL. Again, Blizzard succeeded in making Zerg "unharassable" in the first 10 minutes. God forbid any Zerg is intruppted in droning up the 65 drones in the first 10 minutes or that would be unacceptable. Don't get me started on Widow Mine drops - over priced high supply unit that, with the spore buff (non-evo chamber requirement), is futile; One spore one queen and shut down. Kill two birds with one stone if Terran even considers Banshee play. Are you even serious right now? Terran is favored vs zerg even after this buff.. Widow mines are one of the best units in the game, and are anything but overpriced. One of the best unit in the game you say ? This is so ignorant. You can't even hold-fire or target fire, it's a totally random "unit" that his ruled by your opponent (he's the one who triggers the mine) and by the computer (who choses the target). A code S terran can hardly make it work better than a bronze terran.
I wouldn't go that far. The higher skill terrans will have better position and army compositions to take better advantage of it. But yes, it isn't really micro-able in combat situations.
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EPT
