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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. |
150/150 is a joke. The fact that this is patched but oracle burst/Protoss early game vs Terran is left the same is a joke.
Looks like we're back to the WOL philosophy - if it's Terran it's imbalanced and they need to play better, if it's Protoss/Zerg then it's "well played good sir, *golf clap* and here are your buffs."
So, if this was a problem, I will assume roach burrow rushes and ling/bane roach/bane allins are a problem in early game TvZ correct, right blizzard?
Ohhhhhh, i get it. It's only OP if it was a Terran winning in the beginning of the game. It's perfectly fine if it was a P/Z all-in. But a Terran winning with aggression...nerf it immediately.
A bit disgusting.
User was warned for this post
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On February 23 2013 11:13 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 11:09 CapTanObviOs wrote:
I love how they are so prompt compared to the infestor changes. Seems like David Kim doesnt like terran. Infestors feels swarmy, meanwhile the hellbat isn't mechy enough.
Well, terrans were getting a mechy unit. But then Blizzard was too lazy to actually balance it and just removed it from the game.
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On February 23 2013 11:13 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Siege Tank based mech is much stronger in HotS, because Hellbats (especially with medivac support) make crazy good damage soak units vs. the Toss units that made mech unviable in WoL--they shred chargelots, and Immortals (and Stalkers) take absolutely forever to kill them, and they're bulky enough to be less vulnerable to splash than bio. Unlike Hellions, they don't need to kite, meaning they actually work as front line units. If you engage properly, the Toss army ends up taking tons of additional siege tank shots while they're stuck trying to punch through the Hellbat front line--an emp or two and good target firing with tanks can bring down all the immortals and chargelots long before they ever reach the siege tanks. Judicious use of mines makes this even harder to break (and obviously vikings are a must vs Colossi).
HotS TvP mech is not exactly BW mech, but it certainly doesn't eschew siege tanks entirely--they synergize really well with the other units that have been added...sygnificantly better than they synergized with traditional Hellions. If you aren't playing TvP mech with an eye towards good positioning, protecting your back lines, and choosing good terrain to engage, then you aren't doing it properly. If you are doing that, its become a vastly stronger style than it ever was in BW. A well-positioned terran mech army with good upgrades is all but impossible for Toss to take on a straight on engagement if they just use gateway/robo. Stargate is the only Toss answer to Terran mech currently, and if it wasn't as good as it is, I don't think Protoss would have an effective answer. And frankly, I'm ok with that--Terran mech should be all but impossible to take head on with a ground army, that's the entire point.
You last 2 statements invalid your entire point. Yes, HoTS mech is good vs WoL protoss units. But where is the Air Toss fix?
So basically they buffed mech to be viable against WoL protoss but introduce an even harder counter with air toss, how in the world does that make sense?
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Just like the last patch...
They seem to pretend the game is a good shape a fix stuff that might not be the worst problem...
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On February 23 2013 11:14 avilo wrote:
150/150 is a joke. The fact that this is patched but oracle burst/Protoss early game vs Terran is left the same is a joke.
Looks like we're back to the WOL philosophy - if it's Terran it's imbalanced and they need to play better, if it's Protoss/Zerg then it's "well played good sir, *golf clap* and here are your buffs."
So, if this was a problem, I will assume roach burrow rushes and ling/bane roach/bane allins are a problem in early game TvZ correct, right blizzard?
Ohhhhhh, i get it. It's only OP if it was a Terran winning in the beginning of the game. It's perfectly fine if it was a P/Z all-in. But a Terran winning with aggression...nerf it immediately.
A bit disgusting.
It's a bit disgusting how in zvt right now you can't all in unless the terran is bad. With current terran builds who abuse hots stuff you can't ever all in a terran as it will just fail hardcore.
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On February 23 2013 11:17 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 11:14 avilo wrote:
150/150 is a joke. The fact that this is patched but oracle burst/Protoss early game vs Terran is left the same is a joke.
Looks like we're back to the WOL philosophy - if it's Terran it's imbalanced and they need to play better, if it's Protoss/Zerg then it's "well played good sir, *golf clap* and here are your buffs."
So, if this was a problem, I will assume roach burrow rushes and ling/bane roach/bane allins are a problem in early game TvZ correct, right blizzard?
Ohhhhhh, i get it. It's only OP if it was a Terran winning in the beginning of the game. It's perfectly fine if it was a P/Z all-in. But a Terran winning with aggression...nerf it immediately.
A bit disgusting. It's a bit disgusting how in zvt right now you can't all in unless the terran is bad. With current terran builds who abuse hots stuff you can't ever all in a terran as it will just fail hardcore.
Well, Terrans in WoL couldn't all in a zerg unless the zerg is bad. Same with HoTS. A lot of all-ins involve the opponent to play non-optimally (not scouting, being greedy).
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Now to make the Messbats perfect they just need a bonus damage against biological air units.
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I feel like reapers have been overlooked. Any zerg who has experienced it will agree, double proxy rax reapers are rough. You don't even need an add-on, so the first three reapers can actually get there before a queen.
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On February 23 2013 10:59 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 10:56 redviper wrote:On February 23 2013 10:47 SHODAN wrote:On February 23 2013 10:44 Bagi wrote:On February 23 2013 10:37 SHODAN wrote:
Mass hellbat/thor/medivacs marching in a ball across the map is not mech. Oh god, not this bullshit again. Mech stands for mechanical, as opposed to biological units. If you want to define it further just say tank-based mech or something. Don't start making your own rules for words because "that's how it was in BW". Mech is a style, and the style is defined by fucking siege tanks. There is no sub category called "tank-based mech" because mech = tanks, end of story. Well clearly your definition and blizzard's definitions are in conflict. Since your opinion has no comparative value, we'll go with Blizzard's definition here. As the guy is saying, Mech doesn't mean marine/marauder with skin of mechanical units. Mech is a particular style. Surprisingly, people wanting a different option weren't asking for the standard ball playstyle but with a different name.
Right! Mechanical units ≠ mech play or mech style play. Stalkers, immortals and colossi are all mechanical units, but they share none of the codified behavior that makes for a mech style. As far as I'm concerned, colossi, thors, immortals and hellbats are all infantry units that walk in and attack the same, usually deathball style. Mech is the antithesis of deathball.
Mech style = tanks, cannon fodder, raiders, static defence and cheap ground-based anti-air. For a mech style to be possible, Blizz need to grant a massive buff to siege mode damage, reduce tank supply to 2, and increase the siege mode set-up time. Thors need to be axed for a cheaper, faster anti-air ground unit. Mech needs a strong unit to protect flanks - widow mines look very promising for this. Speed medivacs definitely help make mech viable vP. But without siege tanks as a core unit it aint gonna happen.
I wish more people would read this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=360325
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On February 23 2013 11:29 QuasiMachina wrote:
I feel like reapers have been overlooked. Any zerg who has experienced it will agree, double proxy rax reapers are rough. You don't even need an add-on, so the first three reapers can actually get there before a queen.
You say "before a queen" as if this is some timing which is set in stone. I guarantee if there was a race between a terran and a zerg to see if the terran could build 3 reapers and have them in the zergs base before the zerg built a queen the zerg would win every time.
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On February 23 2013 11:30 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 10:59 n0ise wrote:On February 23 2013 10:56 redviper wrote:On February 23 2013 10:47 SHODAN wrote:On February 23 2013 10:44 Bagi wrote:On February 23 2013 10:37 SHODAN wrote:
Mass hellbat/thor/medivacs marching in a ball across the map is not mech. Oh god, not this bullshit again. Mech stands for mechanical, as opposed to biological units. If you want to define it further just say tank-based mech or something. Don't start making your own rules for words because "that's how it was in BW". Mech is a style, and the style is defined by fucking siege tanks. There is no sub category called "tank-based mech" because mech = tanks, end of story. Well clearly your definition and blizzard's definitions are in conflict. Since your opinion has no comparative value, we'll go with Blizzard's definition here. As the guy is saying, Mech doesn't mean marine/marauder with skin of mechanical units. Mech is a particular style. Surprisingly, people wanting a different option weren't asking for the standard ball playstyle but with a different name. Right! Mechanical units ≠ mech play or mech style play. Stalkers, immortals and colossi are all mechanical units, but they share none of the codified behavior that makes for a mech style. As far as I'm concerned, colossi, thors, immortals and hellbats are all infantry units that walk in and attack the same, usually deathball style. Mech is the antithesis of deathball. Mech style = tanks, cannon fodder, raiders, static defence and cheap ground-based anti-air. For a mech style to be possible, Blizz need to grant a massive buff to siege mode damage, reduce tank supply to 2, and increase the siege mode set-up time. Thors need to be axed for a cheaper, faster anti-air ground unit. Mech needs a strong unit to protect flanks - widow mines look very promising for this. Speed medivacs definitely help make mech viable vP. But without siege tanks as a core unit it aint gonna happen.
What about mechanical play? I think I've heard Blizz reps sometimes call it mechanical in interviews. Are we allowed to call thor/hellbat mechanical?
"I think terran mech play should revolve around tanks as it creates a unique playstyle from the more common bio play in SC2" is a perfectly fine and valid opinion to have.
"You can't call it mech if it doesn't include units X and Y functioning in a manner Z" is complete wankery and counterproductive to any kind of discussion.
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On February 23 2013 11:29 QuasiMachina wrote:
I feel like reapers have been overlooked. Any zerg who has experienced it will agree, double proxy rax reapers are rough. You don't even need an add-on, so the first three reapers can actually get there before a queen.
Lets change spwaning pool to 300 gold aswel, I can't believe 6 lings can possibly arrive at my base before I get my first marine/zealot.
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#BlizzHatesTerran
#Infestor
#ZergWhine>TerranWhine
#Mech
#poopfeast420
#Artosis
#Grackalackin
User was warned for this post
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On February 23 2013 09:54 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 09:53 Everlong wrote:
Also, Are they only watching TvZ for the first 10 minuts games?
... Yeah what about maxed terran mech or air armies, or sky toss? :/
My patience is slowly wearing out @_@;; They're ignoring such blatant issues with the game, even when it's being talked about on talk shows with pro players. What else do they want from us? We lay the issues out very clearly for them and they still don't even acknowledge they exist :/
This is an okay patch, but I still feel like it's still just a soft cap problem for the battle hellion. It will still be as strong as it was before... which doesn't really fix the problem >.>
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guess i figured out i'm not playing terran in the new expansion. this isn't QQ, i just really dont want to struggle against nerfs for the next two years again and have to completely change how i play every 3 months or so just because blizzard can't be patient for the meta to correct itself. i switched to random towards the end of WOL now i feel like i'll enver look back..
i wonder how exciting and fun this game would be had blizzard wait'n'see'd all of the beta patching (minus the obvious ones, like trashing the warhound) instead of kneejerk patching the crap out of everything.
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So when terrans lost horribly against 6 Queen openings, they whined but were told to adapt and play better. Then 6 months lately, blizzard makes minor nerfs to infestors.
And when zergs lost horribly against hell bat openings, they whined and Blizzard nerfs the shit out of hell bats twice within a week.
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On February 23 2013 12:15 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 10:37 SHODAN wrote:On February 23 2013 10:30 Qikz wrote:On February 23 2013 10:27 SHODAN wrote:
Why the fuck did they say "we want to make mech viable vP". It's 3 weeks before release and nobody in their right mind is going mech. WoL siege tanks are not strong enough to be a core unit vP. Hellbats and thors remain these unmicro-able, silly a-move units. STC is going mech on his stream, so is Goody. People are doing it, just not in the runs ups to tournaments. No, no they are not. This is what mech looks like: ![[image loading]](http://www.thinkdigit.com/FCKeditor/uploads/Brood%20Wars%20-%20Terran%20Siege%20Tanks%20get%20to%20see%20what%20a%20Zealot%20dropped%20on%20them%20feels%20like.jpg) Mass hellbat/thor/medivacs marching in a ball across the map is not mech. Mech = Mechanical. Just because you have some retarded definition of what Mech is does not change the fact that Mech is short for Mechanical. If you don't like it, GO PLAY FUCKING BW.
So I assume that we can call protoss play mech play and zerg play as bio?
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On February 23 2013 11:42 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 11:30 SHODAN wrote:On February 23 2013 10:59 n0ise wrote:On February 23 2013 10:56 redviper wrote:On February 23 2013 10:47 SHODAN wrote:On February 23 2013 10:44 Bagi wrote:On February 23 2013 10:37 SHODAN wrote:
Mass hellbat/thor/medivacs marching in a ball across the map is not mech. Oh god, not this bullshit again. Mech stands for mechanical, as opposed to biological units. If you want to define it further just say tank-based mech or something. Don't start making your own rules for words because "that's how it was in BW". Mech is a style, and the style is defined by fucking siege tanks. There is no sub category called "tank-based mech" because mech = tanks, end of story. Well clearly your definition and blizzard's definitions are in conflict. Since your opinion has no comparative value, we'll go with Blizzard's definition here. As the guy is saying, Mech doesn't mean marine/marauder with skin of mechanical units. Mech is a particular style. Surprisingly, people wanting a different option weren't asking for the standard ball playstyle but with a different name. Right! Mechanical units ≠ mech play or mech style play. Stalkers, immortals and colossi are all mechanical units, but they share none of the codified behavior that makes for a mech style. As far as I'm concerned, colossi, thors, immortals and hellbats are all infantry units that walk in and attack the same, usually deathball style. Mech is the antithesis of deathball. Mech style = tanks, cannon fodder, raiders, static defence and cheap ground-based anti-air. For a mech style to be possible, Blizz need to grant a massive buff to siege mode damage, reduce tank supply to 2, and increase the siege mode set-up time. Thors need to be axed for a cheaper, faster anti-air ground unit. Mech needs a strong unit to protect flanks - widow mines look very promising for this. Speed medivacs definitely help make mech viable vP. But without siege tanks as a core unit it aint gonna happen. What about mechanical play? I think I've heard Blizz reps sometimes call it mechanical in interviews. Are we allowed to call thor/hellbat mechanical? "I think terran mech play should revolve around tanks as it creates a unique playstyle from the more common bio play in SC2" is a perfectly fine and valid opinion to have. "You can't call it mech if it doesn't include units X and Y functioning in a manner Z" is complete wankery and counterproductive to any kind of discussion.
"mechanical" has no real meaning when you talk about hellbats & thors. It's just a term to describe them aesthetically. when you play the actual game, they are more or less robot marauders with splash - infantry from a factory. they don't deserve a phrase like "mechanical play" because it makes them sound like they can actually attack and move in a way unique to bio. tank + widow mine is mech play because they have to be completely immobile to shoot. do you understand yet??
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On February 23 2013 12:15 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 10:37 SHODAN wrote:On February 23 2013 10:30 Qikz wrote:On February 23 2013 10:27 SHODAN wrote:
Why the fuck did they say "we want to make mech viable vP". It's 3 weeks before release and nobody in their right mind is going mech. WoL siege tanks are not strong enough to be a core unit vP. Hellbats and thors remain these unmicro-able, silly a-move units. STC is going mech on his stream, so is Goody. People are doing it, just not in the runs ups to tournaments. No, no they are not. This is what mech looks like: Mass hellbat/thor/medivacs marching in a ball across the map is not mech. Mech = Mechanical. Just because you have some retarded BW definition of what Mech is does not change the fact that Mech is short for Mechanical. If you don't like it, GO PLAY FUCKING BW.
Mech is a simple way to express an idea of position based play. No one actually cares whether the units are mechanical or biological, they just want the playstyle that came with BW mech.
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EPT
