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If OP isn't going to say it I will, Terran is the hardest race to play. Period.
Its over represented in Korea because Professionals have the skill sets, multitasking, and work ethic, necessary to play the race. Terran is nowhere near as "forgiving" as Protoss or Zerg. That is why it is so under represented in lower play. But as game knowledge and mechanical skill goes up, so does the representation of Terran. Granted its not as steep as Zerg, but the effect is still valid.
In lower play you consistently see the "NR 20" strat or several variants of it. You build up an army, either fast or slow, and then attack and hope you win the game. On the other end, you either turtle up, or your defense is broken and you lose. Essentially, its "1a-ing".
At the same equal low level skill set of players, Zerg and Protoss can afford, more so than Terran, mistakes what would otherwise prove costly. This is not an argument of what units are weaker or strong. Its more so of the instant mechanic of Zerg to Spawn unit and Protoss to Warp in units. More so, on the equal low level skill set of players, Terran requires more micromanagement of units, then Zerg or Protoss. I'm not suggesting that its 10 fold more skill, but a slightly more advanced placement of units is required.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 19 2013 01:20 Avean wrote:
How is Terran more mechanical difficult at lower Leagues when Terran is the only race of them all that has similar mechanics to other RTS games. If you have ever played another RTS game, Terran will be the easiest to pick up and learn since they have the classic RTS mechanics with pumping out units from Barracks. Protoss and Zerg works completely different.
Just dont agree that Terran is difficult to learn.
Terran doesn't have a cushion to fall back on like Protoss and Zerg, that's what makes its mechanics so hard, Zergs have the ability to build up larva to instantly remax and Toss can warp in a whole load of zealots, Terran have to wait 50s for a marine to pop.
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Here's the biggest issue
Terran came out OP when WOL came out
Everybody and their mother played terran and abused certain strategies
Later on, Blizzard balanced things a little bit and Terran wasn't able to easily steamroll their opponents.
People don't like being able to steamroll their opponents with little skill one year, and then the next year needing a lot more skill to steamroll their opponents
Terrans cry and make posts like these.
If WOL came out at the current state, I don't think we'd have as many people complain.
TLDR; terrans used to have it easy (as the race was clearly imbalanced), and once things became more balanced (or harder for them, however you want to look at it), people who just liked terran because it was OP and easy started complaining and playing other races.
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On January 19 2013 05:07 Soft`Soap wrote:
Here's the biggest issue
Terran came out OP when WOL came out
Everybody and their mother played terran and abused certain strategies
Later on, Blizzard balanced things a little bit and Terran wasn't able to easily steamroll their opponents.
People don't like being able to steamroll their opponents with little skill one year, and then the next year needing a lot more skill to steamroll their opponents
Terrans cry and make posts like these.
If WOL came out at the current state, I don't think we'd have as many people complain.
TLDR; terrans used to have it easy (as the race was clearly imbalanced), and once things became more balanced (or harder for them, however you want to look at it), people who just liked terran because it was OP and easy started complaining and playing other races.
Balance 2 years ago =/= a justified non-balance now.
People who played Terran when it was OP are now the same kids who are playing Zerg. This "patch Zerg" phenomenon is nothing new. This kids are just abusing the race at the moment that are in their glory days. It should be a strong indicator of which race is imbalanced atm. Take Protoss in HotS. Skytoss is broken, everyone and their mothers are playing it. Blizzard is slowly trying to address that issue.
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Hard too follow you. Because you are explaining areas of Terran weakness when compared to other races. When it seems like you want to know if Terran will be the least played race in hots. We can't say yes or no because we can't predict the future. But I think because the campaign features Zerg and that the most popular foreign players are Zerg people will play Zerg. I think Protoss will be second because they have cool looking units lol. And Terran 3rd because they are dull and hard too use if you ask me. But who knows the current trends should continue if you assume that everyone will stick to their wol race in hots.
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On January 19 2013 05:12 PauseBreak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 05:07 Soft`Soap wrote:
Here's the biggest issue
Terran came out OP when WOL came out
Everybody and their mother played terran and abused certain strategies
Later on, Blizzard balanced things a little bit and Terran wasn't able to easily steamroll their opponents.
People don't like being able to steamroll their opponents with little skill one year, and then the next year needing a lot more skill to steamroll their opponents
Terrans cry and make posts like these.
If WOL came out at the current state, I don't think we'd have as many people complain.
TLDR; terrans used to have it easy (as the race was clearly imbalanced), and once things became more balanced (or harder for them, however you want to look at it), people who just liked terran because it was OP and easy started complaining and playing other races.
Balance 2 years ago =/= a justified non-balance now. People who played Terran when it was OP are now the same kids who are playing Zerg. This "patch Zerg" phenomenon is nothing new. This kids are just abusing the race at the moment that are in their glory days. It should be a strong indicator of which race is imbalanced atm. Take Protoss in HotS. Skytoss is broken, everyone and their mothers are playing it. Blizzard is slowly trying to address that issue.
Of course, you will always get the flavour of the month players who will see a certain strat from one race which is powerful and easier than others to perform and will roll that race untill either things are nerfed or players become batter at countering them. Not saying its a bad thing as people can play what ever the hell they like but there is somewhat of a less achievement feel to that way.
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On January 19 2013 04:34 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 02:06 mvdunecats wrote:
My struggles as a Gold League Terran lately have centered around the following reasons for losing:
- "You just need to macro better."
- "You didn't have the right army composition, you need to scout better."
While I understand that both of those elements are important, it feels like I'm fighting an up-hill battle in any non-mirror match up as a Terran. I can't simply focus on macro against Toss or Zerg because their late game armies are simply too powerful. I have to be at least as good on my macro AND be doing constant harassment to my Toss or Zerg opponent. Meanwhile, a Toss or a Zerg can just focus purely on macro and be just fine. I've heard plenty of comments like, "Of course you lost, you let the Toss/Zerg sit back and tech." I've never heard that said about losing to a Terran.
Scouting for army composition is another issue. In TvP, I need to know roughly how many Colossi and how many HT/Archons my opponent has to be able to balance my composition correctly. The same thing with TvZ. I'm having to respond to my opponent's composition. As a Terran in those match ups, is there any army composition that a Toss or Zerg has to worry about scouting ahead of time that will change their composition? It doesn't feel like the other two races have to respond to my composition nearly as much as I do to theirs. No. If you're gold you lost because you suck. It's as simple as that. I'm sorry for being blunt, but balance REALLY does not matter at a low level. I am mid master terran as my offrace just because I have decent mechanics, there is nothing else to it. I guarantee if you post replays we can pick out ways you messed up terribly in the first 8 minutes of the game.
OFC he lost because he made a mistake. That is the entire point. As Terran, you are not allowed to make mistakes. You have the slowest reinforcement, so if you lose your army your at a HUGE disadvantage. You MUST babysit your army, because they are extremely fragile and die quickly to AOE. (Talking about marines here). You MUST have the perfect composition in reaction to your opponent (ghost / HT, vikings / Colossus, BroodLord).
Zerg and Protoss are under no such restrictions when it comes to their army composition, so it is EASIER to play optimally as Z and P than it is to play as T at all levels. This gets exaggerated for low level terrans because they might not have perfectly optimal play like flash.
Balance matters at all levels. If its not fun from low levels up, then why would any new person want to ever play SC2 as Terran? Zerg and Protoss definately have more leeway to make a mistake and still comeback. Terran has nearly none.
(It takes a Great Terran to beat a Good Protoss and an OK zerg.)
http://aligulac.com/periods/
I like how toss has been getting the short end of the stick since the game essentially came out >.,.<
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"Terran is underpowered in lower leagues" statement can be argued. For example, for protoss, roach/zergling or early mass marine vs forcefield is a very hard thing to learn. A gold zerg player can roll over gold protoss player if protoss does not know how to use force fields properly. Similarly inject and creep mechanics make zerg a lot hard in lower leagues. Terran player can hotkey his barracks to 4 and tap 4-a-a-d sometimes, even queues units and outmacros zerg if zerg is bad at injecting.
Individual quality of terran units makes for race's harder mechanics I think. Marines, marauders, tanks, banshees are all problematic units to deal with. Stalkers, non charge zealots, phoenixes, void rays are not. Microing colossus vs vikings is hard for P too, because you lose so much of your army's dps when you retreat a single colossus. I agree that terran is a little harder to play but not that much harder.
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On January 19 2013 05:07 Soft`Soap wrote:
Here's the biggest issue
Terran came out OP when WOL came out
Everybody and their mother played terran and abused certain strategies
Later on, Blizzard balanced things a little bit and Terran wasn't able to easily steamroll their opponents.
People don't like being able to steamroll their opponents with little skill one year, and then the next year needing a lot more skill to steamroll their opponents
Terrans cry and make posts like these.
If WOL came out at the current state, I don't think we'd have as many people complain.
TLDR; terrans used to have it easy (as the race was clearly imbalanced), and once things became more balanced (or harder for them, however you want to look at it), people who just liked terran because it was OP and easy started complaining and playing other races.
I played random at the start of the game and eventually decided I liked Zerg the best due to the way the race played out. The queen buff so drastically changed the ZvT matchup into Zergs favor that I actually quit playing Zerg because of how easy it was to beat Terran. Terran was OP at the start of the game on small maps in low economy / gimmicky games with an unrefined metagame because that's what Terran is the strongest at- making low tech units cost efficient with good micro and catching their opponent off guard.
With larger maps and a more mature metagame, TvZ was at a 50% win rate before the queen buff and even with the rise of the infestor based playstyle, nobody was complaining because Zerg couldn't have 8+ infestors out before Terran could put on pressure and the games were exciting- Zerg actually had to fight to get to hive tech with a strong enough economy to kill their opponent. Now Terrans are getting owned by Zergs across the board with sub 40% win rates except in tournaments where you have top Korean Terrans playing against foreigner Zergs. Not to mention the gameplay itself has become horribly stale and boring to watch since Terran can't attack into a Zerg player before 13 minutes anymore without gambling that the Zerg player doesn't scout at all or is playing especially greedy.
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Yeah, I feel Terran will remain the least played race as it's just easier to play protoss and especially zerg.
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You contradict yourself multiple times throughout your essay and your replies. Obviously this wasn't well thought out, researched or carefully considered.
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On January 19 2013 05:07 Soft`Soap wrote:
Here's the biggest issue
Terran came out OP when WOL came out
Everybody and their mother played terran and abused certain strategies
Later on, Blizzard balanced things a little bit and Terran wasn't able to easily steamroll their opponents.
People don't like being able to steamroll their opponents with little skill one year, and then the next year needing a lot more skill to steamroll their opponents
Terrans cry and make posts like these.
If WOL came out at the current state, I don't think we'd have as many people complain.
TLDR; terrans used to have it easy (as the race was clearly imbalanced), and once things became more balanced (or harder for them, however you want to look at it), people who just liked terran because it was OP and easy started complaining and playing other races.
That's simply not true. Maybe for the racehoppers that jump on whatever's imba, but I was Protoss since i started and got to master league with it before i switched to random (because i wanted to be master league with all races). Terran was by far the hardest thing to play at that point because the simple turtle till deathball style that worked with Protoss was awful as T compared P/Z's counterparts. I switched to random right as the ghost nerf hit the field, i was never spoiled with the prior terran imbalances. Still, it took me a long time to get to master with T compared to the other two.
Im not really advocating terran be made easier. Although the meching player in me would love a siege tank buff, if certain aspects of T were buffed it would probably break competitive starcraft because at the top terran is still really damn good.
I see it as a parabola. In the lowest of leagues Terran is forgiving to to calldown supply and scan, combined with powerful basic units. It troughs plat->mid master where all places are improving their mechanics. Since terrans have more things to practice compared to P/Z micro-wise, they lag a little. And their late game is harder to control. But when players have great mechanics the race again becomes powerful.
(There still is some issues with TvZ however, even at top levels)
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Unless Blizzard changes Z and P design to be more than just deathball a-moving (probably never), Terran will never be a popular race.
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On January 19 2013 05:40 Doominator10 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 04:34 Glurkenspurk wrote:On January 19 2013 02:06 mvdunecats wrote:
My struggles as a Gold League Terran lately have centered around the following reasons for losing:
- "You just need to macro better."
- "You didn't have the right army composition, you need to scout better."
While I understand that both of those elements are important, it feels like I'm fighting an up-hill battle in any non-mirror match up as a Terran. I can't simply focus on macro against Toss or Zerg because their late game armies are simply too powerful. I have to be at least as good on my macro AND be doing constant harassment to my Toss or Zerg opponent. Meanwhile, a Toss or a Zerg can just focus purely on macro and be just fine. I've heard plenty of comments like, "Of course you lost, you let the Toss/Zerg sit back and tech." I've never heard that said about losing to a Terran.
Scouting for army composition is another issue. In TvP, I need to know roughly how many Colossi and how many HT/Archons my opponent has to be able to balance my composition correctly. The same thing with TvZ. I'm having to respond to my opponent's composition. As a Terran in those match ups, is there any army composition that a Toss or Zerg has to worry about scouting ahead of time that will change their composition? It doesn't feel like the other two races have to respond to my composition nearly as much as I do to theirs. No. If you're gold you lost because you suck. It's as simple as that. I'm sorry for being blunt, but balance REALLY does not matter at a low level. I am mid master terran as my offrace just because I have decent mechanics, there is nothing else to it. I guarantee if you post replays we can pick out ways you messed up terribly in the first 8 minutes of the game. OFC he lost because he made a mistake. That is the entire point. As Terran, you are not allowed to make mistakes. You have the slowest reinforcement, so if you lose your army your at a HUGE disadvantage. You MUST babysit your army, because they are extremely fragile and die quickly to AOE. (Talking about marines here). You MUST have the perfect composition in reaction to your opponent (ghost / HT, vikings / Colossus, BroodLord). Zerg and Protoss are under no such restrictions when it comes to their army composition, so it is EASIER to play optimally as Z and P than it is to play as T at all levels. This gets exaggerated for low level terrans because they might not have perfectly optimal play like flash. Balance matters at all levels. If its not fun from low levels up, then why would any new person want to ever play SC2 as Terran? Zerg and Protoss definately have more leeway to make a mistake and still comeback. Terran has nearly none. (It takes a Great Terran to beat a Good Protoss and an OK zerg.) http://aligulac.com/periods/I like how toss has been getting the short end of the stick since the game essentially came out >.,.<
Balance matters at the highest levels only. The highest levels don't have the luxury of work-shopping their mechanics and coming out significantly better than their former opponents at an even rating. Also, low level terrans can't play optimally if they don't play like Flash? Theres an argument to be made on Terran having a higher learning curve than the other races, but you spearhead the bias to new frontiers.
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As someone who completely agrees with this, I have to say even I think these threads are getting really old. Its pretty common knowledge terran is much less forgiving, much harder, etc.
As far as the player size of terran vs other races, theres more at play than just people getting mad that terran sucks. I do agree that has contributed, but theres other factors:
Pro players/streamers- Almost all of the high quality streams and pro players were not Terran from 2010 up until now. There was always very few people to watch playing terran, and there were a lot less foreign heros that played terran since sc2 came out. Now maybe this is because of bad design/imbalance too and the pros just saw it coming, but you can't deny that since streaming and tournaments/TL is such a huge part of SC2, that doesnt have an impact on people wanting to play and learn from their favorite pro players/streamers.. This goes both ways into Korea. I never really felt that after the first few terran nerfs more were needed. The fact is more Koreans played terran bc the most famous stars and players in SC1/BW were terran, and thus there was a higher concentration of terran players early on, plus the race is most similar to BW units/macro.
So yeah, I guess im helping another veiled terran qq thread that even I'm getting tired on, but it really isnt fair to just say oh bc terran is underpowered thats why less people are playing them. Have to take into account the influence of the streaming/pro community.
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The mod disclaimer is a bit obnoxious, mods won't ban without reading the whole thing.
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On January 19 2013 05:02 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:20 Avean wrote:
How is Terran more mechanical difficult at lower Leagues when Terran is the only race of them all that has similar mechanics to other RTS games. If you have ever played another RTS game, Terran will be the easiest to pick up and learn since they have the classic RTS mechanics with pumping out units from Barracks. Protoss and Zerg works completely different.
Just dont agree that Terran is difficult to learn. Terran doesn't have a cushion to fall back on like Protoss and Zerg, that's what makes its mechanics so hard, Zergs have the ability to build up larva to instantly remax and Toss can warp in a whole load of zealots, Terran have to wait 50s for a marine to pop.
last I checked marines took 25 seconds to build. Also by large terran will have the largest army out of all races when game gets to 3+ bases since mules replace scv's to an extent. If your going to try an argue your point dont try to exaggerate to get your point across...it doesnt work
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On January 19 2013 04:15 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 03:52 keglu wrote:On January 19 2013 03:26 figq wrote:
Terran used to be the most played race and also the most successful race pretty much at all levels. What do you mean by "preety much all levels" For example http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/0/103Terran while most popular at the beggining never was most represented race in highest league wordwide. So its hard to argue that terran dominated ladders. Its also hard to argue that terrran dominated pro scene below Korean level since with exception of 2010, for foreign scene Terran was least succesfull race in terms of toruanemtns wins/finals. It's an inaccurate statement by me, I admit. By the way, there are some really fun memories in these ladders, like 24 Terrans in Top 30 of Korea GM in Season 2: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Battle.net_Leagues/Season_2_GM_Rankings/Korea
Yeah i remember Korean Gm being dominated by Terran, but again these are the same players that dominated pro scene at the same time.
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Terran is only the hardest race currently, because they need to apply pressure to Zerg/Toss in order to take a lead and eventually a win. While pressuring you need to keep your macro up while microing your units well and most players, not even GMs can do this well.
When watching a foreign Terran go for hellion banshee for example in TvZ, their resources pile up like mad because their macro slips hard, while Korean Terrans are able to queue up units, add more production, start upgrades, ect, WHILE controlling their units well.
Anybody that plays muta/ling in ZvT know how hard it is to keep up your creep spread/injects/upgrades while controlling your units. The thing with Terran is that they are basically always playing a muta style vs Toss and Zerg, where damage that you deal is only effective if your macro keeps up. While on the other hand, defending with infestors is so much more incredibly easier to do (especially since the queen buff allowing me to get much better creep spread than before).
This all leads to casual players not choosing Terran, as they don't want the game to feel like a chore.
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Is nonstandard Terran play really so unforgiving at lower levels? After all, the OP isn't talking about the highest level of play. I've found that if you make something silly such as BC's or Thor's near the late game, then you still have a good chance of winning. In fact, most often your opponent won't respond correctly and you will win. Of course this is at a plat level on the NA ladder, but still, we aren't talking about the highest level of play. Also, as a terran player, base races are your friend.
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EPT
