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On February 08 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
It is only when "play better" stops being an option that actual balance talks need to be made.
Playing better becomes no longer an option - there is a limited amount of time and effort a man may commit into a computer game. I am pretty satisfied with my rank and I'm interested in squeezing some good games out of SC2.
Getting a good TvZ felt impossible for quite a while. If TvP heads in that direction (and so it seams in Hots) then I'm either switching or I'm out.
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On February 08 2013 03:59 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
It is only when "play better" stops being an option that actual balance talks need to be made.
Playing better becomes no longer an option - there is a limited amount of time and effort a man may commit into a computer game. I am pretty satisfied with my rank and I'm interested in squeezing some good games out of SC2. Getting a good TvZ felt impossible for quite a while. If TvP heads in that direction (and so it seams in Hots) then I'm either switching or I'm out.
They will change stuff. Don't worry. But I know it can be frustrating. I feel you there.
I spend a lot of time studying. I got 1-2 hours max per day to play.
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I'm trying my absolute best to not descend this into balance whine but Terran is indeed underplayed because of its complexity and difficulty to actually play. Let's have a look at some requirements of the Terran race in context of what both Protoss and Zerg require. Terran have to additionally:
- Micro buildings - You have to land production buildings in a specific spot in order to benefit from a Tech Lab or Reactor. Zerg and Protoss have no such requirements. While the Supply Depot is also a great benefit for the Terran, it also requires micro to use properly, thus raising the skill ceiling.
- Micro units better - Case in point is Banelings, Colossi, or Storms vs Marines. Banelings can two-shot a clump of Marines regardless of Combat Shields and Colossi completely tear them apart whilst being an overwhelmingly a-move unit. Psionic Storms can also kill an entire clump of full health marines in around three ingame seconds.
- Handle a higher skill ceiling for their harassment units - Drops are pretty much mandatory in a TvX matchup to pull further ahead as deathballs for both Protoss and Zerg come sooner and take exponentially more micro skill to fend off. In HotS, Terran gets the earliest possible dedicated harassment unit (Reaper) that sadly sucks. Yes it has 60HP and can regen health but the Reaper only deals 4 damage, still trade pitifully with anything that isn't a melee unit, and massing them leaves you in a vulnerable spot where merely a-moving your Mothership Core to the Terran opponent's mineral line can force a gg. Meanwhile, Oracles can literally two shot workers (their beam deals around 30dps to light), is airborne, and a complete bitch to hold off in comparison to even WoL muta harass. Mutalisks have additionally been buffed to make tower diving a little bit more attractive with better passive health regen and a small movement speed increase.
- Rely on Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 units as the bread-and-butter comp vs Protoss - Unlike in TvZ and TvT, Terran Mech is by design not viable in TvP even as HotS inches closer to launch. This is because Terrans will be more vulnerable against early Gateway timings than they would've been if they went for 3 rax after CC. Hellions (let aloone Hellbats) come at a later timing than 4 gate, 3 gate robo, or even a 2 base gateway all in. Immortals by design also hard-counter the entirety of the Terran Mech arsenal except for Hellbats which thanks to recent buffs can hold their own against an Armored unit. Siege Tanks are also less of a counter in TvP. While they did 70 damage vs Dragoons, they only deal 50 vs Stalkers and turn a three-shot into a four-shot. Stalkers can additionally Blink on top of Siege Tanks unlike Dragoons, making them more of a soft-counter towards clumped up tanks.
- Rely on skillfully denying spellcasting. The very design of the Terran race necessitates that players outright deny spellcasting else risk a possible game-ending scenario. While Ravens by comparison in WoL sucked against Zerg and Protoss due to their hard-counterability against Templar and Infestors (blame the minuscule range of their abilities, especially Seeker Missile, that makes them prone to fungal denies, neural parasites and feedbacks), Templar and Infestors always got the job done requiring Terran to send in Ghosts to attempt to intercept the enemy spellcasters, who would likely be surrounded by Observers/Overseers/armies galore.
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On February 08 2013 03:59 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
It is only when "play better" stops being an option that actual balance talks need to be made.
Playing better becomes no longer an option - there is a limited amount of time and effort a man may commit into a computer game. I am pretty satisfied with my rank and I'm interested in squeezing some good games out of SC2. Getting a good TvZ felt impossible for quite a while. If TvP heads in that direction (and so it seams in Hots) then I'm either switching or I'm out.
No disagreements from lowly ol' platinum me--but I'm just parsing out *why* play/macro/micro/scout/etc... better gets shoved down people's throats. And even though in my head I know this--I still get frustrated sometimes when I see people genuinely asking for help or voicing their concerns get shut down because they "don't know what they're talking about."
It's just the way of the eSports world.
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On February 08 2013 05:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 03:59 scypio wrote:On February 08 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
It is only when "play better" stops being an option that actual balance talks need to be made.
Playing better becomes no longer an option - there is a limited amount of time and effort a man may commit into a computer game. I am pretty satisfied with my rank and I'm interested in squeezing some good games out of SC2. Getting a good TvZ felt impossible for quite a while. If TvP heads in that direction (and so it seams in Hots) then I'm either switching or I'm out. No disagreements from lowly ol' platinum me--but I'm just parsing out *why* play/macro/micro/scout/etc... better gets shoved down people's throats. And even though in my head I know this--I still get frustrated sometimes when I see people genuinely asking for help or voicing their concerns get shut down because they "don't know what they're talking about." It's just the way of the eSports world.
macro is such a hard thing to explain, and its all u need till u reach masters, maybe even mid masters. thats why ppl are morons often.
its way easier to not point out tiny strategic/position/decision making mistakes then saying "you should have 20 more supply at this point, nothing happened. Also, u didnt control ur army good enough" - and those big points are simply way more important as well.
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On February 08 2013 05:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 03:59 scypio wrote:On February 08 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
It is only when "play better" stops being an option that actual balance talks need to be made.
Playing better becomes no longer an option - there is a limited amount of time and effort a man may commit into a computer game. I am pretty satisfied with my rank and I'm interested in squeezing some good games out of SC2. Getting a good TvZ felt impossible for quite a while. If TvP heads in that direction (and so it seams in Hots) then I'm either switching or I'm out. No disagreements from lowly ol' platinum me--but I'm just parsing out *why* play/macro/micro/scout/etc... better gets shoved down people's throats. And even though in my head I know this--I still get frustrated sometimes when I see people genuinely asking for help or voicing their concerns get shut down because they "don't know what they're talking about." It's just the way of the eSports world.
in my opinion people tend to over analyze things :/
a player can be plenty good (diamond-master) without even caring about build orders or metagame.
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On February 08 2013 05:14 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 05:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 08 2013 03:59 scypio wrote:On February 08 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
It is only when "play better" stops being an option that actual balance talks need to be made.
Playing better becomes no longer an option - there is a limited amount of time and effort a man may commit into a computer game. I am pretty satisfied with my rank and I'm interested in squeezing some good games out of SC2. Getting a good TvZ felt impossible for quite a while. If TvP heads in that direction (and so it seams in Hots) then I'm either switching or I'm out. No disagreements from lowly ol' platinum me--but I'm just parsing out *why* play/macro/micro/scout/etc... better gets shoved down people's throats. And even though in my head I know this--I still get frustrated sometimes when I see people genuinely asking for help or voicing their concerns get shut down because they "don't know what they're talking about." It's just the way of the eSports world. macro is such a hard thing to explain, and its all u need till u reach masters, maybe even mid masters. thats why ppl are morons often. its way easier to not point out tiny strategic/position/decision making mistakes then saying "you should have 20 more supply at this point, nothing happened. Also, u didnt control ur army good enough" - and those big points are simply way more important as well.
I know all this 
My brain does.
The days I get butt-hurt is when my heart does the talking.
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On February 08 2013 05:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 03:59 scypio wrote:On February 08 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
It is only when "play better" stops being an option that actual balance talks need to be made.
Playing better becomes no longer an option - there is a limited amount of time and effort a man may commit into a computer game. I am pretty satisfied with my rank and I'm interested in squeezing some good games out of SC2. Getting a good TvZ felt impossible for quite a while. If TvP heads in that direction (and so it seams in Hots) then I'm either switching or I'm out. No disagreements from lowly ol' platinum me--but I'm just parsing out *why* play/macro/micro/scout/etc... better gets shoved down people's throats. And even though in my head I know this--I still get frustrated sometimes when I see people genuinely asking for help or voicing their concerns get shut down because they "don't know what they're talking about." It's just the way of the eSports world.
Improving your gameplay in terms of macro/micro/scout only makes sense if it will result in having more fun. It just does not work that way.
The better you get at playing terran the less forgiving the race becomes. You can find a ton of pro games with zergs and tosses coming back into the game thanks to good AoE hits, runbys, DT harass, sudden tech-switch etc. And there are no such games for terrans (except for TvT).
Scouting is not that important really - P/Z all-ins seem to become less popular once you're out of gold league (at leas in eu). In most cases the other races will start up their standard deathball assembly and try to roll you over with a 1-a + F/T.
If you let that happen then after losing a single battle (or not winning it in a dominating fashion) it is game over. To prevent that you need to find some holes in your opponent's defense and mess them up a bit. Once again, this is doable vs toss and not doable vs a competent zerg. And HotS seems to limit any early aggression vs toss and from my standpoint it's a disaster.
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On February 08 2013 04:46 Clbull wrote:I'm trying my absolute best to not descend this into balance whine but Terran is indeed underplayed because of its complexity and difficulty to actually play. Let's have a look at some requirements of the Terran race in context of what both Protoss and Zerg require. Terran have to additionally: - Micro buildings - You have to land production buildings in a specific spot in order to benefit from a Tech Lab or Reactor. Zerg and Protoss have no such requirements. While the Supply Depot is also a great benefit for the Terran, it also requires micro to use properly, thus raising the skill ceiling.
- Micro units better - Case in point is Banelings, Colossi, or Storms vs Marines. Banelings can two-shot a clump of Marines regardless of Combat Shields and Colossi completely tear them apart whilst being an overwhelmingly a-move unit. Psionic Storms can also kill an entire clump of full health marines in around three ingame seconds.
- Handle a higher skill ceiling for their harassment units - Drops are pretty much mandatory in a TvX matchup to pull further ahead as deathballs for both Protoss and Zerg come sooner and take exponentially more micro skill to fend off. In HotS, Terran gets the earliest possible dedicated harassment unit (Reaper) that sadly sucks. Yes it has 60HP and can regen health but the Reaper only deals 4 damage, still trade pitifully with anything that isn't a melee unit, and massing them leaves you in a vulnerable spot where merely a-moving your Mothership Core to the Terran opponent's mineral line can force a gg. Meanwhile, Oracles can literally two shot workers (their beam deals around 30dps to light), is airborne, and a complete bitch to hold off in comparison to even WoL muta harass. Mutalisks have additionally been buffed to make tower diving a little bit more attractive with better passive health regen and a small movement speed increase.
- Rely on Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 units as the bread-and-butter comp vs Protoss - Unlike in TvZ and TvT, Terran Mech is by design not viable in TvP even as HotS inches closer to launch. This is because Terrans will be more vulnerable against early Gateway timings than they would've been if they went for 3 rax after CC. Hellions (let aloone Hellbats) come at a later timing than 4 gate, 3 gate robo, or even a 2 base gateway all in. Immortals by design also hard-counter the entirety of the Terran Mech arsenal except for Hellbats which thanks to recent buffs can hold their own against an Armored unit. Siege Tanks are also less of a counter in TvP. While they did 70 damage vs Dragoons, they only deal 50 vs Stalkers and turn a three-shot into a four-shot. Stalkers can additionally Blink on top of Siege Tanks unlike Dragoons, making them more of a soft-counter towards clumped up tanks.
- Rely on skillfully denying spellcasting. The very design of the Terran race necessitates that players outright deny spellcasting else risk a possible game-ending scenario. While Ravens by comparison in WoL sucked against Zerg and Protoss due to their hard-counterability against Templar and Infestors (blame the minuscule range of their abilities, especially Seeker Missile, that makes them prone to fungal denies, neural parasites and feedbacks), Templar and Infestors always got the job done requiring Terran to send in Ghosts to attempt to intercept the enemy spellcasters, who would likely be surrounded by Observers/Overseers/armies galore.
Zerg need creep to build their buildings, Protoss needs pylon power. Your first point is silly. Different races are different.
Don't clump against banelings. I would love to be able to do something with my colossi more than a-moving them and act as target practice for vikings. Too bad I have to rely on blink stalkers which are otherwise horrible against bio, or stacked vikings sitting in multiple storms for several seconds. Psi storm can be easily denied by ghosts, and your marines shouldn't sit still with lightning raining on them. If you can't actually run marines out of storm or spread then your going to lose.
Reapers really aren't good for harass now. Mostly a scouting unit. An MSC loses to 3 marines. Massing reapers and dying to an MSC isn't imbalance, its you doing a dumb strategy. Build a turret against oracles. More than worth the 100 minerals to deny a 300/300 investment.
Mech defense is easier now with widow mines and tanks that dont have a 60 second research time. Outside of that, yea mech isnt that good, but bio is more than good enough right for Terran.
Everything up to this point was discussed in HOTSThen in your last post here, you bring up ravens in WOL. It does not follow especially because Ravens in hots are completely different, and much better. You can't talk about hots the entire post and then switch back to wol in your points for your convenience.
As for denying spellcasting, Protoss CANT deny Terran spellcasting when Terran builds more than 5 or 6 ghosts. And the range of EMP and snipe means you don't have to rely on ghost cloaking.
Terran had a 54% winrate against Protoss in Korea in January as stated by NASL in their last episode of the Pulse.
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i think the interview with last shadow is interresting
he said the reason why teran dont do well its
because all the Bo are figured out by Z and P and you must literally to outplay your opponent
since you have few options about which build you go
in order to win terran needs good mechanics like the koreans terrans
the only non korean that has good mechanics is stephano
maybe thorzian
that why you cant buff terran easily because korean terrans will dominate
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On February 08 2013 04:46 Clbull wrote:I'm trying my absolute best to not descend this into balance whine but Terran is indeed underplayed because of its complexity and difficulty to actually play. Let's have a look at some requirements of the Terran race in context of what both Protoss and Zerg require. Terran have to additionally: - Micro buildings - You have to land production buildings in a specific spot in order to benefit from a Tech Lab or Reactor. Zerg and Protoss have no such requirements. While the Supply Depot is also a great benefit for the Terran, it also requires micro to use properly, thus raising the skill ceiling.
- Micro units better - Case in point is Banelings, Colossi, or Storms vs Marines. Banelings can two-shot a clump of Marines regardless of Combat Shields and Colossi completely tear them apart whilst being an overwhelmingly a-move unit. Psionic Storms can also kill an entire clump of full health marines in around three ingame seconds.
- Handle a higher skill ceiling for their harassment units - Drops are pretty much mandatory in a TvX matchup to pull further ahead as deathballs for both Protoss and Zerg come sooner and take exponentially more micro skill to fend off. In HotS, Terran gets the earliest possible dedicated harassment unit (Reaper) that sadly sucks. Yes it has 60HP and can regen health but the Reaper only deals 4 damage, still trade pitifully with anything that isn't a melee unit, and massing them leaves you in a vulnerable spot where merely a-moving your Mothership Core to the Terran opponent's mineral line can force a gg. Meanwhile, Oracles can literally two shot workers (their beam deals around 30dps to light), is airborne, and a complete bitch to hold off in comparison to even WoL muta harass. Mutalisks have additionally been buffed to make tower diving a little bit more attractive with better passive health regen and a small movement speed increase.
- Rely on Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 units as the bread-and-butter comp vs Protoss - Unlike in TvZ and TvT, Terran Mech is by design not viable in TvP even as HotS inches closer to launch. This is because Terrans will be more vulnerable against early Gateway timings than they would've been if they went for 3 rax after CC. Hellions (let aloone Hellbats) come at a later timing than 4 gate, 3 gate robo, or even a 2 base gateway all in. Immortals by design also hard-counter the entirety of the Terran Mech arsenal except for Hellbats which thanks to recent buffs can hold their own against an Armored unit. Siege Tanks are also less of a counter in TvP. While they did 70 damage vs Dragoons, they only deal 50 vs Stalkers and turn a three-shot into a four-shot. Stalkers can additionally Blink on top of Siege Tanks unlike Dragoons, making them more of a soft-counter towards clumped up tanks.
- Rely on skillfully denying spellcasting. The very design of the Terran race necessitates that players outright deny spellcasting else risk a possible game-ending scenario. While Ravens by comparison in WoL sucked against Zerg and Protoss due to their hard-counterability against Templar and Infestors (blame the minuscule range of their abilities, especially Seeker Missile, that makes them prone to fungal denies, neural parasites and feedbacks), Templar and Infestors always got the job done requiring Terran to send in Ghosts to attempt to intercept the enemy spellcasters, who would likely be surrounded by Observers/Overseers/armies galore.
This does not seem to consider the other races very well. I'll go down the list:
1. Terran alone must micro buildings: true in technicality, false in concept. Zerg must continuously spread creep tumors (harder than remembering to put up a depot once in a while) AND has to reroute overlords from its army rally so that it doesn't lose all of its supply when the enemy attacks (this is a huge mistake that costs many lower level zergs victories). Protoss have to position pylons strategically (I'll give it to you, this doesn't seem quite as difficult, but I've never played protoss, so I cannot say conclusively).
2. Terran has to micro better: false. Unattended Banelings can and will detonate cost ineffectively on Mauraders or Siege Tanks. Mutalisks must constantly be attended to if they are going to be worth the cost AND if you don't want all of them to die to half their cost in a stimmed marine pack with a medivac. Protoss occasionally has to move a colossus one way or another to avoid a viking (that's a joke; I've never played toss, so I cannot say one way or another about their micro difficulty). FURTHERMORE Terran's micro capability is a boon to the race. Have you ever played Infestor Ling Bling against a terran who splits his marines and focus fires with tanks? I have, and it is incredibly frustrating to see how cost-effectively marines can trade there.
3. As a former Zerg and current Terran, I MUCH prefer dropping than defending drops. This may simply be personal preference; on the other hand, I really think that it's easier to micro something that you know is coming (i.e. your drop) rather than micro against something that hit you by surprise (i.e. his drop). It's like trying to dodge a wrench from a dark room. Because I do not play HoTS, I cannot comment on the rest of this point.
4. I've no real criticism on this point other than my original: consider other races' use of tier 1 units (upgraded) mid-late game. I rarely see colossi without stalkers or zealots. Additionally, medivacs, vikings, and ghosts are not tier 1 or tier 1.5.
5. I think you have this one correct.
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On February 08 2013 06:06 perser84 wrote:
i think the interview with last shadow is interresting
he said the reason why teran dont do well its
because all the Bo are figured out by Z and P and you must literally to outplay your opponent
since you have few options about which build you go
in order to win terran needs good mechanics like the koreans terrans
the only non korean that has good mechanics is stephano
maybe thorzian
that why you cant buff terran easily because korean terrans will dominate
Stephano's mechanics aren't exactly top notch. He has amazing game sense and engages extremely well (most of the time). He's definitely a top caliber player, but not through mechanics.
Thorzain, on the other hand, may be the most respected foreigner in Korea. He was the first foreigner to win a proleague match in quite a few years, in a mirror match at that. Of course, since then Stephano has won a few as well, but that somehow doesn't seem as impressive (probably due to the fact that everybody knows Zerg is broken now).
User was warned for this post
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On February 08 2013 06:06 Wingblade wrote:
Don't clump against banelings.
[...]
As for denying spellcasting, Protoss CANT deny Terran spellcasting when Terran builds more than 5 or 6 ghosts. And the range of EMP and snipe means you don't have to rely on ghost cloaking.
Terran had a 54% winrate against Protoss in Korea in January as stated by NASL in their last episode of the Pulse.
Great advice! We've all seen Automaton2000 smash those banelings into oblivion with pure marines so we will just keep playing terran. It is so much fun to micro like a god!
Same for EMP vs HT - a decent toss will keep templars in the back and the zealots do well without shields. EMP-ing them is next to impossible without superior control. This is pretty much like vortex vs broodlord - does Z stack his bls so they can get vortexed? Does P keep his HTs in one clump in a flankable position?
Well... this just does not happen in my league. But I know, all I need to do is play like Bomber or MKP and I can smash those scrub tosses late-game ezpz.
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On February 08 2013 06:06 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 04:46 Clbull wrote:I'm trying my absolute best to not descend this into balance whine but Terran is indeed underplayed because of its complexity and difficulty to actually play. Let's have a look at some requirements of the Terran race in context of what both Protoss and Zerg require. Terran have to additionally: - Micro buildings - You have to land production buildings in a specific spot in order to benefit from a Tech Lab or Reactor. Zerg and Protoss have no such requirements. While the Supply Depot is also a great benefit for the Terran, it also requires micro to use properly, thus raising the skill ceiling.
- Micro units better - Case in point is Banelings, Colossi, or Storms vs Marines. Banelings can two-shot a clump of Marines regardless of Combat Shields and Colossi completely tear them apart whilst being an overwhelmingly a-move unit. Psionic Storms can also kill an entire clump of full health marines in around three ingame seconds.
- Handle a higher skill ceiling for their harassment units - Drops are pretty much mandatory in a TvX matchup to pull further ahead as deathballs for both Protoss and Zerg come sooner and take exponentially more micro skill to fend off. In HotS, Terran gets the earliest possible dedicated harassment unit (Reaper) that sadly sucks. Yes it has 60HP and can regen health but the Reaper only deals 4 damage, still trade pitifully with anything that isn't a melee unit, and massing them leaves you in a vulnerable spot where merely a-moving your Mothership Core to the Terran opponent's mineral line can force a gg. Meanwhile, Oracles can literally two shot workers (their beam deals around 30dps to light), is airborne, and a complete bitch to hold off in comparison to even WoL muta harass. Mutalisks have additionally been buffed to make tower diving a little bit more attractive with better passive health regen and a small movement speed increase.
- Rely on Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 units as the bread-and-butter comp vs Protoss - Unlike in TvZ and TvT, Terran Mech is by design not viable in TvP even as HotS inches closer to launch. This is because Terrans will be more vulnerable against early Gateway timings than they would've been if they went for 3 rax after CC. Hellions (let aloone Hellbats) come at a later timing than 4 gate, 3 gate robo, or even a 2 base gateway all in. Immortals by design also hard-counter the entirety of the Terran Mech arsenal except for Hellbats which thanks to recent buffs can hold their own against an Armored unit. Siege Tanks are also less of a counter in TvP. While they did 70 damage vs Dragoons, they only deal 50 vs Stalkers and turn a three-shot into a four-shot. Stalkers can additionally Blink on top of Siege Tanks unlike Dragoons, making them more of a soft-counter towards clumped up tanks.
- Rely on skillfully denying spellcasting. The very design of the Terran race necessitates that players outright deny spellcasting else risk a possible game-ending scenario. While Ravens by comparison in WoL sucked against Zerg and Protoss due to their hard-counterability against Templar and Infestors (blame the minuscule range of their abilities, especially Seeker Missile, that makes them prone to fungal denies, neural parasites and feedbacks), Templar and Infestors always got the job done requiring Terran to send in Ghosts to attempt to intercept the enemy spellcasters, who would likely be surrounded by Observers/Overseers/armies galore.
Zerg need creep to build their buildings, Protoss needs pylon power. Your first point is silly. Different races are different. Don't clump against banelings. I would love to be able to do something with my colossi more than a-moving them and act as target practice for vikings. Too bad I have to rely on blink stalkers which are otherwise horrible against bio, or stacked vikings sitting in multiple storms for several seconds. Psi storm can be easily denied by ghosts, and your marines shouldn't sit still with lightning raining on them. If you can't actually run marines out of storm or spread then your going to lose. Reapers really aren't good for harass now. Mostly a scouting unit. An MSC loses to 3 marines. Massing reapers and dying to an MSC isn't imbalance, its you doing a dumb strategy. Build a turret against oracles. More than worth the 100 minerals to deny a 300/300 investment. Mech defense is easier now with widow mines and tanks that dont have a 60 second research time. Outside of that, yea mech isnt that good, but bio is more than good enough right for Terran. Everything up to this point was discussed in HOTSThen in your last post here, you bring up ravens in WOL. It does not follow especially because Ravens in hots are completely different, and much better. You can't talk about hots the entire post and then switch back to wol in your points for your convenience. As for denying spellcasting, Protoss CANT deny Terran spellcasting when Terran builds more than 5 or 6 ghosts. And the range of EMP and snipe means you don't have to rely on ghost cloaking. Terran had a 54% winrate against Protoss in Korea in January as stated by NASL in their last episode of the Pulse.
It was more a rant at the design of WoL than a balance rant. I know the statistics in top level TvP are in favour of the Terran but the fact is that their matchups generally rely on midgame bio timings. I have yet to see a player seriously go for Mech and consistently win TvPs. TvP was even so bad that the Panzer Terran himself Goody opted to play PvPs in tournaments instead of TvPs.
My point was also that for the Protoss, there wasn't really much spellcasting from the Terran anyway to deny. Ghosts are only really useful against spellcasters or Protoss units and their usefulness against the Protoss arsenal only really extends to removing shields. Also, why else do you think we never saw Raven usage in TvP during Wings? The Raven was meant to be the penultimate Terran spellcaster much like what the High Templar and Infestor were for Protoss and Zerg respectively.
What we got instead was a steaming crock of shit that took 50 more Energy per spellcast to even use its splash damage ability, which had 3 less range than its competitors Fungal Growth and Psionic Storm. The only time it can and has been used has been either in mirror matchups or in late game TvZs on Metropolis (i.e. Game 3 DongRaeGu vs Bomber during IPL4, where Bomber tore his ling bane muta pushes a new one with good tank and map positioning and was so far ahead that a Raven transition was viable.) Plus it has to be a perfect engagement and against clumped up Corruptor and Brood Lord compositions.
I never claimed imbalance. I know that Terrans excel in the early and midgame in TvP. Yet these skill barriers are something that make Terran fifteen times harder to play as a race. Their non-mirrors involve preparing against and avoiding splash damage that can instagib bio armies while their mirror unlike PvP or ZvZ involves tonnes of tankbattles and hour long macro games.
Besides, I like the new Raven. I'm glad we will finally see SK Terran v2.0 in HotS. It's a build I even improvised with myself in low level TvZ and it feels completely glorious to rip apart ling bane infestor brood lord corruptor armies with pure MMM and mass Ravens. It makes him decide whether to retreat and not risk an engagement or eat 8+ Seeker Missiles.
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On February 08 2013 06:20 Andwhy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 04:46 Clbull wrote:I'm trying my absolute best to not descend this into balance whine but Terran is indeed underplayed because of its complexity and difficulty to actually play. Let's have a look at some requirements of the Terran race in context of what both Protoss and Zerg require. Terran have to additionally: - Micro buildings - You have to land production buildings in a specific spot in order to benefit from a Tech Lab or Reactor. Zerg and Protoss have no such requirements. While the Supply Depot is also a great benefit for the Terran, it also requires micro to use properly, thus raising the skill ceiling.
- Micro units better - Case in point is Banelings, Colossi, or Storms vs Marines. Banelings can two-shot a clump of Marines regardless of Combat Shields and Colossi completely tear them apart whilst being an overwhelmingly a-move unit. Psionic Storms can also kill an entire clump of full health marines in around three ingame seconds.
- Handle a higher skill ceiling for their harassment units - Drops are pretty much mandatory in a TvX matchup to pull further ahead as deathballs for both Protoss and Zerg come sooner and take exponentially more micro skill to fend off. In HotS, Terran gets the earliest possible dedicated harassment unit (Reaper) that sadly sucks. Yes it has 60HP and can regen health but the Reaper only deals 4 damage, still trade pitifully with anything that isn't a melee unit, and massing them leaves you in a vulnerable spot where merely a-moving your Mothership Core to the Terran opponent's mineral line can force a gg. Meanwhile, Oracles can literally two shot workers (their beam deals around 30dps to light), is airborne, and a complete bitch to hold off in comparison to even WoL muta harass. Mutalisks have additionally been buffed to make tower diving a little bit more attractive with better passive health regen and a small movement speed increase.
- Rely on Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 units as the bread-and-butter comp vs Protoss - Unlike in TvZ and TvT, Terran Mech is by design not viable in TvP even as HotS inches closer to launch. This is because Terrans will be more vulnerable against early Gateway timings than they would've been if they went for 3 rax after CC. Hellions (let aloone Hellbats) come at a later timing than 4 gate, 3 gate robo, or even a 2 base gateway all in. Immortals by design also hard-counter the entirety of the Terran Mech arsenal except for Hellbats which thanks to recent buffs can hold their own against an Armored unit. Siege Tanks are also less of a counter in TvP. While they did 70 damage vs Dragoons, they only deal 50 vs Stalkers and turn a three-shot into a four-shot. Stalkers can additionally Blink on top of Siege Tanks unlike Dragoons, making them more of a soft-counter towards clumped up tanks.
- Rely on skillfully denying spellcasting. The very design of the Terran race necessitates that players outright deny spellcasting else risk a possible game-ending scenario. While Ravens by comparison in WoL sucked against Zerg and Protoss due to their hard-counterability against Templar and Infestors (blame the minuscule range of their abilities, especially Seeker Missile, that makes them prone to fungal denies, neural parasites and feedbacks), Templar and Infestors always got the job done requiring Terran to send in Ghosts to attempt to intercept the enemy spellcasters, who would likely be surrounded by Observers/Overseers/armies galore.
This does not seem to consider the other races very well. I'll go down the list: 1. Terran alone must micro buildings: true in technicality, false in concept. Zerg must continuously spread creep tumors (harder than remembering to put up a depot once in a while) AND has to reroute overlords from its army rally so that it doesn't lose all of its supply when the enemy attacks (this is a huge mistake that costs many lower level zergs victories). Protoss have to position pylons strategically (I'll give it to you, this doesn't seem quite as difficult, but I've never played protoss, so I cannot say conclusively).2. Terran has to micro better: false. Unattended Banelings can and will detonate cost ineffectively on Mauraders or Siege Tanks. Mutalisks must constantly be attended to if they are going to be worth the cost AND if you don't want all of them to die to half their cost in a stimmed marine pack with a medivac. Protoss occasionally has to move a colossus one way or another to avoid a viking (that's a joke; I've never played toss, so I cannot say one way or another about their micro difficulty). FURTHERMORE Terran's micro capability is a boon to the race. Have you ever played Infestor Ling Bling against a terran who splits his marines and focus fires with tanks? I have, and it is incredibly frustrating to see how cost-effectively marines can trade there. 3. As a former Zerg and current Terran, I MUCH prefer dropping than defending drops. This may simply be personal preference; on the other hand, I really think that it's easier to micro something that you know is coming (i.e. your drop) rather than micro against something that hit you by surprise (i.e. his drop). It's like trying to dodge a wrench from a dark room. Because I do not play HoTS, I cannot comment on the rest of this point. 4. I've no real criticism on this point other than my original: consider other races' use of tier 1 units (upgraded) mid-late game. I rarely see colossi without stalkers or zealots. Additionally, medivacs, vikings, and ghosts are not tier 1 or tier 1.5. 5. I think you have this one correct.
Some key things I want to point out. First, depots take the longest time to make of all supply. Combine this with the production mechanic of Terran and you have the most destructive supply blocks in the game. Second, every single building has to be made with exits and add-ons in mind. This both spreads out the Terran base, making it more vulnerable to harassment, and shrinks building potential in each base. This means every building placement is a decision until you eat, breathe, and sleep SC2. Yes, creep spread is APM intensive, but the decision making required is minimal and of little consequence. You pick a direction to spread creep and remember to do it.
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On February 08 2013 06:06 perser84 wrote:
i think the interview with last shadow is interresting
he said the reason why teran dont do well its
because all the Bo are figured out by Z and P and you must literally to outplay your opponent
since you have few options about which build you go
in order to win terran needs good mechanics like the koreans terrans
the only non korean that has good mechanics is stephano
maybe thorzian
that why you cant buff terran easily because korean terrans will dominate
its also why being a gold league terran sucks, because quite frankly my mechanics are AWFUL. so are my opponents, but this seemingly impacts me way more than opponents of other races ( or when I play protoss / zerg, everyone plays random now and then.. right? right...? ).
i dont really care about balance, as half the time people are debating metagame, not balance per se, but the only reason guys like MKP are still in code S is because they have ridiculous micro and unit control. Innovation last night looked awesome.
But on the whole, there's more to sc2 than the 2 terran players left in code S right now. playing terran just isnt fun anymore unless you have the micro of a hyperactive korean octopus.
this is supposed to be fun right?
strangely, sc2 was a hell of a lot more fun when I was playing a hell of a lot worse...
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On February 08 2013 10:48 Matt_D_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 06:06 perser84 wrote:
i think the interview with last shadow is interresting
he said the reason why teran dont do well its
because all the Bo are figured out by Z and P and you must literally to outplay your opponent
since you have few options about which build you go
in order to win terran needs good mechanics like the koreans terrans
the only non korean that has good mechanics is stephano
maybe thorzian
that why you cant buff terran easily because korean terrans will dominate
its also why being a gold league terran sucks, because quite frankly my mechanics are AWFUL. so are my opponents, but this seemingly impacts me way more than opponents of other races ( or when I play protoss / zerg, everyone plays random now and then.. right? right...? ). i dont really care about balance, as half the time people are debating metagame, not balance per se, but the only reason guys like MKP are still in code S is because they have ridiculous micro and unit control. Innovation last night looked awesome. But on the whole, there's more to sc2 than the 2 terran players left in code S right now. playing terran just isnt fun anymore unless you have the micro of a hyperactive korean octopus. this is supposed to be fun right? strangely, sc2 was a hell of a lot more fun when I was playing a hell of a lot worse...
It's not just unit control, but being able to macro like a god while microing like one as well. That's what makes them still able to win games.
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On February 08 2013 03:59 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:
It is only when "play better" stops being an option that actual balance talks need to be made.
Playing better becomes no longer an option - there is a limited amount of time and effort a man may commit into a computer game. I am pretty satisfied with my rank and I'm interested in squeezing some good games out of SC2. Getting a good TvZ felt impossible for quite a while. If TvP heads in that direction (and so it seams in Hots) then I'm either switching or I'm out.
Well theoretically you should be winning 50% of your games so... if you're choosing to go for long drawn out macro games almost exclusively, you should be winning around 50% of them. If you're mixing in timings and are only successful on those, it could be another story...
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Im not sure the OP has a point, or at least, a reasonable prescription - saying terran is underpowered (or something... quite a bit of prevarication going on) at the diamond/masters level but not at grandmaster means you can't buff one without fucking up the other. And if we're shooting for cross-league balance, what about plat and lower? Terran is very strong there (scanner means less dying to cloaking cheeses, MMM and 1 base all-ins effective, little player scouting maximizes drop effectiveness, stimpack + a move = fantastic micro, etc). Can't have everything you want.
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New players play terran, i know i did because its the race of the campaign and because the units are somewhat familiar.
Then after a while these players discover that zerg is way and way easier to play and they switch to zerg or just quit.
With few new players coming in, and hots beeing a zerg expansion, i think terran will remain the lowest played race for a looooong time, untill there is some patch wich makes massing one or two units and 1a a good strategy for terran
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EPT
