EPTIs Terran to remain the lowest played race? - Page 29
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On February 08 2013 11:33 Kolya504 wrote: Im not sure the OP has a point, or at least, a reasonable prescription - saying terran is underpowered (or something... quite a bit of prevarication going on) at the diamond/masters level but not at grandmaster means you can't buff one without fucking up the other. And if we're shooting for cross-league balance, what about plat and lower? Terran is very strong there (scanner means less dying to cloaking cheeses, MMM and 1 base all-ins effective, little player scouting maximizes drop effectiveness, stimpack + a move = fantastic micro, etc). Can't have everything you want. Eh it completely depends. A lot of people argue Terran is hard as balls at the lower levels. Microing infestor ling or ling/bane isn't that hard, nor is stalker/colossi (just really sticking with that composition can get you really far). Both those compositions are easier than MMM. Of course, FF at lower levels is tricky as well as antidrops with infestor/ling. It's all relative. | ||
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Oerbaa
Scotland184 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 08 2013 12:01 FabledIntegral wrote: Eh it completely depends. A lot of people argue Terran is hard as balls at the lower levels. Microing infestor ling or ling/bane isn't that hard, nor is stalker/colossi (just really sticking with that composition can get you really far). Both those compositions are easier than MMM. Of course, FF at lower levels is tricky as well as antidrops with infestor/ling. It's all relative. FF are hard to be aggressive with at lower levels, but defensive they work out well enough. Same thing with defending drops. Drops end up being a huge risk, especially when you don't have the APM to distract your opponent. | ||
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Ph1losophy
4 Posts
2) People argue that Terran is balanced at a high level, but too weak at lower levels. I would argue that win-rates in any league below master are PURELY based on skill. The fact that a unit does 3 damage too much or too little has no significance if both players make glaring mistakes. It's simply the one who messes up a few times less who wins. 3) Everyone assumes that the player numbers are directly connected to perceived balance, personally I went away from Terran because it was boring to me. I don't see it as surprise that many people find Zerg or Protoss more exciting and play those. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On February 08 2013 10:48 Matt_D_ wrote: its also why being a gold league terran sucks, because quite frankly my mechanics are AWFUL. so are my opponents, but this seemingly impacts me way more than opponents of other races ( or when I play protoss / zerg, everyone plays random now and then.. right? right...? ). i dont really care about balance, as half the time people are debating metagame, not balance per se, but the only reason guys like MKP are still in code S is because they have ridiculous micro and unit control. Innovation last night looked awesome. But on the whole, there's more to sc2 than the 2 terran players left in code S right now. playing terran just isnt fun anymore unless you have the micro of a hyperactive korean octopus. this is supposed to be fun right? strangely, sc2 was a hell of a lot more fun when I was playing a hell of a lot worse... ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0y5q5.png) SC2 used to be a better game, too, with one faction not completely butchered and the crucial-to-design-working limited not removed from another's economy. | ||
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Hylirion
Netherlands968 Posts
I think split micro is by far the hardest generally micro mechanic in the game. Stutter step and things like blink micro are really easy in comparison imo. The mousespeed and accuracy required to split your army within the 2 ingame seconds that banelings appear from the fog of war is crazy and the results if you fail are so harsh. | ||
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Irre
United States646 Posts
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On February 08 2013 23:11 Hylirion wrote: I switched from protoss to terran because I hated not being able to deal with mass roach. Then I found out about the horror that is banelings. One moment of not looking at your bio army and it is all green goo. I don't think other races have an equivalent to the pain that a terran experiences when banelings hit your ball of units. I think split micro is by far the hardest generally micro mechanic in the game. Stutter step and things like blink micro are really easy in comparison imo. The mousespeed and accuracy required to split your army within the 2 ingame seconds that banelings appear from the fog of war is crazy and the results if you fail are so harsh. In fairness, you do need to counter split banelings which compensates a bit. As someone said before, otherwise your brave jihadbugs will just blow up tanks and leave the zerglings to be gunned down. Not quite as immediate, but still pretty harsh (and if the T doesn't split, you don't need to), and more importantly backed up by our nice absurd economy that is barely threatened anymore. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On February 08 2013 23:47 Coffee Zombie wrote: In fairness, you do need to counter split banelings which compensates a bit. As someone said before, otherwise your brave jihadbugs will just blow up tanks and leave the zerglings to be gunned down. Not quite as immediate, but still pretty harsh (and if the T doesn't split, you don't need to), and more importantly backed up by our nice absurd economy that is barely threatened anymore. This made me think of something. In BW Ghosts had ocular implant upgrade, which gave them huge vision radius. I think that would be a great upgrade to have in SC2. It wouldn't be anything I could imagine being op, if ghosts could get an upgrade that gave them +2 or +3 vision range. So at least terran could see the speedlings, banlings, infestors, and HT a little further away. Maybe even give the raven a larger sight range by default. So at least in late game terran would have a more reasonbale amount of time to react.. Stimming, splitting, or just retreating fast enough is a big problem for many terrans when there army suddenly gets approached by splash dmg. Terran could really use something mobile, with larger vision range than anything they have now. It really seems like a simple thing that wouldn't make terran any stronger in a fight, it would just give the terran player more time to use what they have well. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On February 07 2013 01:13 howLiN wrote: If you play to have fun I don't see why you should switch races if you enjoy the race you're playing as. Because playing to have fun just isn't as fun when you're losing the majority of your games. | ||
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Blackfish
Austria309 Posts
played zerg up to diamond in season 1 (like 2010 season 1) then switched to terran. I pretty muched stopped playing on a regular basis for a long time and just played games here and there, but from playing many other games and also piano I got a lot better over the time while not really playing starcraft. In the end it´s funny cause as I got better the requirments for me staying at a like gold/plat level with terran got higher and higher. Which of course is expected since everybody gets better, the game gets more thought out by every skill level and so on... But I don´t think that things like split second marine splitting should be needed to stay at my level. Yeah it´s something like a race defining mechanic by now, but see it like this: It´s 15:00 min into a TvZ, I have 3 bases, Zerg has 4. I follow my main army as it progresses trough enemy territory, not daring to touch the creep. But i know that i have to, so knowing what happens next I build as much supply depots as I can to ensure that i don´t get blocked for like 4 minutes. I do that really bad move, cause I´m to scared to lock back at my base for like a split second. I siege his 4th, I wait for his army. Banelings come in, i´m ready, supplyblocked, 1.5k overmines... but i´m ready. Stim, kite, focus with tanks, take on group of marines left, other right, other back, split them again.... most banelings die, smirk cause feeling badass... jk, flank, keyboardthrow gg Well that was maybe a bit over the top, but what I want to say is that nothing is more frustrating then losing against people you know that are way, like way worse than you. Ofc i can play 1000x times better, ofc there are 100000 mistakes I make every game... But, but what if he makes 100001 mistakes and still wins? what if he could play 1002x better than he does, but hes the one winning. Losing to lesser players is the worst thing ever. And since I play fully again and starcraft is the only game I enjoy nowadays it started to really kill me how those toss and zerg guy get away with every sh*t they pull. I understand the balance=/=skillevel thingy u guys pull of here, but just take a tad and think about my point. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 09 2013 07:56 zmansman17 wrote: Because playing to have fun just isn't as fun when you're losing the majority of your games. Or when you are trying but get demoted or lose to "worse" players when you feel you're getting better. | ||
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dubRa
2165 Posts
On February 08 2013 10:48 Matt_D_ wrote: its also why being a gold league terran sucks, because quite frankly my mechanics are AWFUL. so are my opponents, but this seemingly impacts me way more than opponents of other races ( or when I play protoss / zerg, everyone plays random now and then.. right? right...? ). i dont really care about balance, as half the time people are debating metagame, not balance per se, but the only reason guys like MKP are still in code S is because they have ridiculous micro and unit control. Innovation last night looked awesome. But on the whole, there's more to sc2 than the 2 terran players left in code S right now. playing terran just isnt fun anymore unless you have the micro of a hyperactive korean octopus. this is supposed to be fun right? strangely, sc2 was a hell of a lot more fun when I was playing a hell of a lot worse... no I don't think that is strange at all. From my experience it is less fun once I became mid skilled in every competitive game. fps, rts and dotas. can't tell why... | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 09 2013 09:18 dubRa wrote: no I don't think that is strange at all. From my experience it is less fun once I became mid skilled in every competitive game. fps, rts and dotas. can't tell why... This is actually a side effect of knowledge, not skill. The better you are at ______ the more you realize how crappy you are. People who attempt mastery at something teach themselves (subconsciously) to think that everything they do sucks--this is necessary to drive one's self to improvement. So let's say you're studying lemming migration patterns under a full moon--the more you learn the dumber you're going to feel because you begin to realize just how much you're not seeing, how much you don't know, things stop being interesting and everything seems to be a hindrance to your study, everything seems to be insufficient at explaining the mysteries before you. It doesn't matter what you study, practice, or master whether it be marine splits or lemming migrations--they all lead to the same sense of "non-fun-ness" Think about it this way--how many times can you watch a random movie (doesn't matter which) before it stops surprising you, before it stops giving you a sense of revelation, a sense of exploration? How many times do you rewatch a movie before you're simply re-experiencing what you've already experienced? | ||
TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
especially the 1-1 speedroach timing from zerg, that everyone seems to play right now, is one of the most frustrating strategies, I've ever faced in SC2 history. I could imagine that this has lead to the declinement of terran players too, because there is no strong allin strategy right now, which could be used by Terrans themselves against Z/P. | ||
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FuzZyLogic
United States141 Posts
On January 19 2013 01:04 FutureBreedMachine wrote: According to SC2ranks, over the last year the Terran player base has been diminishing. I'm sure you are all well aware of this and have heard threads about it numerous times. This thread has been made at least 1000 times before, why did you decide we needed another? | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On February 09 2013 09:05 aksfjh wrote: Or when you are trying but get demoted or lose to "worse" players when you feel you're getting better. how are you measuring their skill? as far as I know there is no real way to judge player "skill" when they are of 2 different races. pre pro level it's all macro. if you lose it's because you suck, balance has nothing to do with it. | ||
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ElBlanco
Australia140 Posts
On February 09 2013 08:17 Blackfish wrote: Hey guys, played zerg up to diamond in season 1 (like 2010 season 1) then switched to terran. I pretty muched stopped playing on a regular basis for a long time and just played games here and there, but from playing many other games and also piano I got a lot better over the time while not really playing starcraft. In the end it´s funny cause as I got better the requirments for me staying at a like gold/plat level with terran got higher and higher. Which of course is expected since everybody gets better, the game gets more thought out by every skill level and so on... But I don´t think that things like split second marine splitting should be needed to stay at my level. Yeah it´s something like a race defining mechanic by now, but see it like this: It´s 15:00 min into a TvZ, I have 3 bases, Zerg has 4. I follow my main army as it progresses trough enemy territory, not daring to touch the creep. But i know that i have to, so knowing what happens next I build as much supply depots as I can to ensure that i don´t get blocked for like 4 minutes. I do that really bad move, cause I´m to scared to lock back at my base for like a split second. I siege his 4th, I wait for his army. Banelings come in, i´m ready, supplyblocked, 1.5k overmines... but i´m ready. Stim, kite, focus with tanks, take on group of marines left, other right, other back, split them again.... most banelings die, smirk cause feeling badass... jk, flank, keyboardthrow gg Well that was maybe a bit over the top, but what I want to say is that nothing is more frustrating then losing against people you know that are way, like way worse than you. Ofc i can play 1000x times better, ofc there are 100000 mistakes I make every game... But, but what if he makes 100001 mistakes and still wins? what if he could play 1002x better than he does, but hes the one winning. Losing to lesser players is the worst thing ever. And since I play fully again and starcraft is the only game I enjoy nowadays it started to really kill me how those toss and zerg guy get away with every sh*t they pull. I understand the balance=/=skillevel thingy u guys pull of here, but just take a tad and think about my point. I don't want to sound elitist or insulting but the level of play in gold league is laughable. Anyone blaming balance for their performance there is kidding themselves. I'm only high diamond/low masters as each race but i can easily win any TvZ in gold/plat without even bothering to split my marines. Players at that level are making so many hilariously bad mistakes that blaming your loss on not splitting good enough really is missing the big problem. Frankly if you're in gold and you think that's why you're losing than i would argue the problem is you're not looking to the right areas to improve. Edit: I'd like to see some of the people whining actually post a replay or 2. I'm willing to bet anything that your description of these engagements (making it sound like you're a pro) don't even nearly represent reality and you're probably losing for other reasons. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 09 2013 10:31 Glurkenspurk wrote: how are you measuring their skill? as far as I know there is no real way to judge player "skill" when they are of 2 different races. pre pro level it's all macro. if you lose it's because you suck, balance has nothing to do with it. Mainly by "counting" mistakes. Supply blocks, bad engagements, poor strategy, etc. Somebody said it pretty well earlier, about knowing there are 1000 things you can fix and get better at, but getting crushed by a guy who has 1100 things he can fix. Also, when you run around saying things like "lol u jus suk nub!" (exaggerating, but sentiment is there) you're just being a dick. You're not helping, you're not convincing anybody, you're just plain being an asshole. | ||
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