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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
On February 08 2013 01:24 CCa1ss1e wrote: brood war imbalanced? ok... BW was heavily imbalanced for quite some times and it relied on new strategies from players to innovate a match-up (Bisu build in PvZ for example) and good maps to help balance the strengths and weaknesses of each race. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 08 2013 01:49 Black Gun wrote: vouch. just think of maps like tears of the moon or battle royale. or think of lost temple 3 o'clock T vs 12 o'clock Z..... the reason bw could be balanced by mapmakers, however, was that no more balance patches came from blizzard and that the core mechanics of the game were balanced enough on a wide enough range of maps. in sc2, by contrast, a perfectly fine tvz matchup was completely flipped on its head and pushed into imbalance by the queen range buff. and here again, the mere fact that this little change could have such an impact on the game is a sign that the core mechanics of sc2 are not yet balanced enough to leave the balancing job to mapmakers. The queen patch was not a 'little' change. OL speed meant faster scouting which led to more 'Eco' builds. Queens led to less army being produce which lead to more drones. The range also allowed more creep spread which allowed more map control and vision. If you think the queen patch was a minor change. Please try to play with marine range +2. A 2 rax would dominate most Zerg builds. | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:11 Wingblade wrote: This post, killed my soul(Idra quote ftw). Zealots can't simply be endlessly cited by conc shells anymore? Working as intended. Then you state that warpgate units are used well into the lategame. You mean my T1 upgraded units can be used lategame just like Terran marines and zerglings? Working as intended. Your last sentence is completely out of place and has no context. What isnt three bunkers enough to do? There's no context in your post but based on what I've read from other I assume your talking about gateway allins. Vastly superior Protoss production which is building more expensive units in higher numbers beats unupgraded bio in a small timing window before the bio gets stim pack? Working as intended. There are a lot of things that can change the situation here. Sentries for example. Are a huge factor. Barracks vs Warpgate - warpgate wins. Remember this is without medivac. Force field and trap them. There is no where to go. And zealots eat marines as well as marauders. No need for concussive. Barracks need to train the units back - Less forgiving. Protoss can warp huge numbers in at a time. This is my opinion. | ||
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baba1
Canada355 Posts
On January 19 2013 01:15 FutureBreedMachine wrote: Well I suppose you're right. I'm saying that at a Korean Pro level, most races are relatively balanced, however at lower levels I would say there is an imbalance. Thanks for pointing that out. Imbalance does not exist at low level, only room for improvement exist. | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:27 baba1 wrote: Imbalance does not exist at low level, only room for improvement exist. What happens if two players at low level are equal in skill? imbalance can be a problem I believe. Different levels of low level players is another thing. People will meet each other at lower leagues too. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:14 scypio wrote: This means they are good enough. They are good enough to hold off any aggression T can throw at P in a defensive stance. Also, if the toss chooses to be aggressive he has a fair number of options. I have seen countless games where pro players died to things like 3-gate pressure, 1-gate-expand-into-4gate attack, 6/7-gate and the like. Yes, these if you fail a heavy gateway attack you are behind or dead. Yes, in some cases they need to do a ton of damage - but guess what. That is something you must factor in when you are playing aggressively. I just can't see how good should an unit be so that a failed heavy pressure (or a failed all-in) does not put you behind. You completely missed what I said. It's not that gateway units are "good enough" it's that there are so many more of them. No, T1 gateway units are not good enough to hold unless they are already upgraded or if the Protoss can get AOE out. Yes, Terran players die to them because they don't scout. If you lose to one of these gateway pressures you have nothing to blame but yourself for not scouting and being prepared. But again, it's not because gateway units are "good" it's because there are so many more of them. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:30 llIH wrote: What happens if two players at low level are equal in skill? imbalance can be a problem I believe. Different levels of low level players is another thing. People will meet each other at lower leagues too. 3 rax stim timings were really good in gold league when I was there. It wasn't because it was imbalances but because I couldn't macro properly. If your dying to something in a lower league you can beat it by simply playing better. There is no imbalance when you can't perform basic macro properly. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:30 llIH wrote: What happens if two players at low level are equal in skill? imbalance can be a problem I believe. Different levels of low level players is another thing. People will meet each other at lower leagues too. I don't think that effectiveness at lower level matters that much compared to the way that terrans lose. You struggle to defend P/Z all-ins and build up your army only to see it evaporate in 4 seconds to storms or fungals & banelings. One bad engagement means it's game over in 9/10 games whereas the other races do have a considerable come-back potential. Also, there are no players you can really follow anywhere below the top-pro level. I've been watching some more of the Go4Sc2 weekly cups and it is just as bad as ever (that is for the last 18 months or so) - total P/Z domination. To make things even worse terran's last stand (GSL) seems to be cracking too. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:30 llIH wrote: What happens if two players at low level are equal in skill? imbalance can be a problem I believe. Different levels of low level players is another thing. People will meet each other at lower leagues too. Then the loser did something wrong (not enough macro, lack of mechanics, bad decision) To say it easy, at that level the last thing that decides the game is imbalance, you will only see this effect at the very top. | ||
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nV[MB]
Poland58 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:42 Wingblade wrote: There is no imbalance when you can't perform basic macro properly. The fact that imbalance might not be the only factor that decides the outcome of the game doesnt mean its nonexistant .. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:40 Wingblade wrote: You completely missed what I said. It's not that gateway units are "good enough" it's that there are so many more of them. No, T1 gateway units are not good enough to hold unless they are already upgraded or if the Protoss can get AOE out. Yes, Terran players die to them because they don't scout. If you lose to one of these gateway pressures you have nothing to blame but yourself for not scouting and being prepared. But again, it's not because gateway units are "good" it's because there are so many more of them. Are we watching the same game? Aren't you supposed to be able to defend any scouted all-in in sc2? And still, do not protoss have the ability to bust through established bunker defense? Last time I checked they could bust through bunkers and grab the win even if the T saw it coming. And the quantity vs quality of units! Damn, can I make such claims too? Let's say I'm set up for mid-game at 10 minutes with two bases, 45+ scvs, a bunch of marines and marauders with stim+cs, two medivacs and some upgrades on the way. Can I get there if I open 7 rax marine? Guess what - no way in hell! This is the essential choice you make in the game. You play passive and tech, you play aggressively and poke around, you go for one, all-inish timing. All options are open for protoss and all of them play out pretty well in PvT. That means that gateway units are good enough. | ||
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:42 Wingblade wrote: 3 rax stim timings were really good in gold league when I was there. It wasn't because it was imbalances but because I couldn't macro properly. If your dying to something in a lower league you can beat it by simply playing better. There is no imbalance when you can't perform basic macro properly. Never talked about my personal experience. Nor my league, nor yours. I'm talking about the balance. Barracks vs Warpgates. Actually my strongest "skill" would be my macro. Micro comes last. Decision in the middle. Scouting probably also one of my strongest skills. I do not open 3 rax. Almost never. I usually CC first into banshee, or tank. Or I do a concussive marauder 1 rax pressure into mass expand. I do this mostly to counter cheese and counter low tech all ins. I am playing Terran at mid master. I really do feel this is not necessary to tell. But the way you express yourself seems like you are thinking I'm whining about balance and that I am in gold league. What you are saying reminds me of: Argumentum ad hominem. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:46 scypio wrote: I don't think that effectiveness at lower level matters that much compared to the way that terrans lose. You struggle to defend P/Z all-ins and build up your army only to see it evaporate in 4 seconds to storms or fungals & banelings. One bad engagement means it's game over in 9/10 games whereas the other races do have a considerable come-back potential. Also, there are no players you can really follow anywhere below the top-pro level. I've been watching some more of the Go4Sc2 weekly cups and it is just as bad as ever (that is for the last 18 months or so) - total P/Z domination. To make things even worse terran's last stand (GSL) seems to be cracking too. This is ultimately the problem with the idea of, "Well, balance below the top level can be overcome by improving. Only the top level matters!" If "imbalance" is rampant at lower levels to the point where players don't feel like their improvement matters, what happens if the top becomes imbalanced? There is no up-and-coming talent to revolutionize the matchups or carry the torch to the top. There's nobody to wholeheartedly cheer on that small handful of players that continue to persevere. The games that are left against the handicapped race become boring because one side can't possibly do what the pros do and the other side doesn't need to watch for "tips" because they can roll their own handicapped opponents just fine. A 6 match-up game soon becomes 3, and SC2 ends up the joke strategy esport, like SSBB is for fighting. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On February 08 2013 01:49 Black Gun wrote: vouch. just think of maps like tears of the moon or battle royale. or think of lost temple 3 o'clock T vs 12 o'clock Z..... the reason bw could be balanced by mapmakers, however, was that no more balance patches came from blizzard and that the core mechanics of the game were balanced enough on a wide enough range of maps. in sc2, by contrast, a perfectly fine tvz matchup was completely flipped on its head and pushed into imbalance by the queen range buff. and here again, the mere fact that this little change could have such an impact on the game is a sign that the core mechanics of sc2 are not yet balanced enough to leave the balancing job to mapmakers. The Queen patch was not a mere balance change making something a bit harder - it fundamentally, qualitatively altered the way the early game works by removing the one limiter that could be used to keep the Zerg economy in check. Without the limiter of absolutely having to invest larvae or gas into defense, Z econ could go nuts which results in the fast Infestor swells which in turn make it super cost-effective to defend midgame (and basically erase the midgame). Which then results in insanely fast Hives. Nowadays: 12 minute Hive, safe. In the past, 17 minute Hive, greedy. | ||
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Slackzftw
Germany361 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 08 2013 03:00 llIH wrote: Never talked about my personal experience. Nor my league, nor yours. I'm talking about the balance. Barracks vs Warpgates. Actually my strongest "skill" would be my macro. Micro comes last. Decision in the middle. Scouting probably also one of my strongest skills. I do not open 3 rax. Almost never. I usually CC first into banshee, or tank. Or I do a concussive marauder 1 rax pressure into mass expand. I do this mostly to counter cheese and counter low tech all ins. I am playing Terran at mid master. I really do feel this is not necessary to tell. But the way you express yourself seems like you are thinking I'm whining about balance and that I am in gold league. What you are saying reminds me of: Argumentum ad hominem. Let's stop this before it gets Blizz Forums up in here. Balance can and is the reason for a lot of losses in the lower league--but it's impossible to tell because the lower league problems can be solved by better play. We can't actually see whether or not balance was the cause of any specific loss a low league player has because there are so many variables to look at many of which solves the problem if fixed. So, to expedite the argument, people tell low league players to simply play better. The mistake most people make is that this translates into "balance doesn't affect anything in low league" which is wrong--because it does. But, assuming balance does matter in low league, so what? The winrate of the lower league player can still be improved despite this imbalance because execution is still a bigger aspect of the gameplay at that point. The "imbalance" is still easily surmountable through better play--and since it's impossible to figure out if imbalance or execution was the cause of the loss, telling them to play better resolves both issues. It is only when "play better" stops being an option that actual balance talks need to be made. BW, for example, is horribly imbalanced. But the skill ceiling is so high you can tell players to simple "play better" and they'll overcome the imbalance. This creates the illusion of balance. In truth--if automaton 5000 played BW we would see that its possible even worse put together than SC2. But the mechanical limitations are so much that it still translates into balance since people have a hard enough time getting across the map that the fact that unit ____ hard counters _____ is irrelevant. This is not the case in SC2. Marauders *will* counter Stalkers unlike in BW where Dragoons still had a chance to actually beat tanks straight up with better play. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
On February 08 2013 02:15 nomyx wrote: BW was heavily imbalanced for quite some times and it relied on new strategies from players to innovate a match-up (Bisu build in PvZ for example) and good maps to help balance the strengths and weaknesses of each race. Discovering new strategies that are effective against whatever the current "imbalanced" metagame is, does not mean the game itself is imbalanced. It just means, well the metagame is imbalanced. Smart players always find ways to win. | ||
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
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llIH
Norway2147 Posts
On February 08 2013 03:45 algorithm0r wrote: Terran was by far the most played race on release and I have played significantly more Terrans on HotS Beta than any other race. Is that an argument? You are basically using an "argumentum ad populum". The popularity doesn't necessarily mean they are better. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 08 2013 03:47 llIH wrote: Is that an argument? You are basically using an "argumentum ad populum". The popularity doesn't necessarily mean they are better. Technically he is using anecdotal evidence. "I've bumped into Terrans so everyone else must also be bumping into terrans" | ||
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