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Canada13389 Posts
On January 19 2013 01:15 FutureBreedMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:13 Powerfoe wrote:
I like how you wrote an essay complaining about how underpowered terran is and can still say, "I'm not saying terran is underpowered." Well I suppose you're right. I'm saying that at a Korean Pro level, most races are relatively balanced, however at lower levels I would say there is an imbalance. Thanks for pointing that out.
At lower levels, the one who plays better wins :/
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On January 19 2013 08:50 oscarsg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 08:40 SupLilSon wrote:On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. Try using camera hotkeys and more than 3-4 control groups. It's really not that difficult... I can't tell you how many master/GM zergs I've seen playing with 3 control groups.... Parting uses only 2 hotkey groups for units, and YoDa does the same as a Terran. But hey, if the Zerg macro is so easy, why is it that no one is even close to HyuN's level of pure macro/mechanics? Why can he be the only one to do these amazing builds with multi-harassment, whilst expanding and getting 200/200 with Hive tech and 10+ infestors after 13 minutes? Why can Life keep his initial 8-10 lings alive forever, whilst other Zerg players loses them one after another? The ceiling hasn't been reached yet, and to talk about "easy mechanics" is an imbecile worthy. "Easier", maybe.
What are you even talking about? No one is close to HyuN in macro and mechanics? How many GSLs has HyuN won? Oh yea... 0
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On January 19 2013 08:56 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 08:50 oscarsg wrote:On January 19 2013 08:40 SupLilSon wrote:On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. Try using camera hotkeys and more than 3-4 control groups. It's really not that difficult... I can't tell you how many master/GM zergs I've seen playing with 3 control groups.... Parting uses only 2 hotkey groups for units, and YoDa does the same as a Terran. But hey, if the Zerg macro is so easy, why is it that no one is even close to HyuN's level of pure macro/mechanics? Why can he be the only one to do these amazing builds with multi-harassment, whilst expanding and getting 200/200 with Hive tech and 10+ infestors after 13 minutes? Why can Life keep his initial 8-10 lings alive forever, whilst other Zerg players loses them one after another? The ceiling hasn't been reached yet, and to talk about "easy mechanics" is an imbecile worthy. "Easier", maybe. What are you even talking about? No one is close to HyuN in macro and mechanics? How many GSLs has HyuN won? Oh yea... 0
So GSL wins = best mechanics?
Does that mean that Mvp has better mechanics/macro than Gumiho? Does MC have better mechanics/macro than Parting/Rain? Does Nestea have better mechanics/macro than HyuN?
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Australia528 Posts
blatant balance whine. why are mods letting this one go?
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On January 19 2013 09:07 oscarsg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 08:56 SupLilSon wrote:On January 19 2013 08:50 oscarsg wrote:On January 19 2013 08:40 SupLilSon wrote:On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. Try using camera hotkeys and more than 3-4 control groups. It's really not that difficult... I can't tell you how many master/GM zergs I've seen playing with 3 control groups.... Parting uses only 2 hotkey groups for units, and YoDa does the same as a Terran. But hey, if the Zerg macro is so easy, why is it that no one is even close to HyuN's level of pure macro/mechanics? Why can he be the only one to do these amazing builds with multi-harassment, whilst expanding and getting 200/200 with Hive tech and 10+ infestors after 13 minutes? Why can Life keep his initial 8-10 lings alive forever, whilst other Zerg players loses them one after another? The ceiling hasn't been reached yet, and to talk about "easy mechanics" is an imbecile worthy. "Easier", maybe. What are you even talking about? No one is close to HyuN in macro and mechanics? How many GSLs has HyuN won? Oh yea... 0 So GSL wins = best mechanics? Does that mean that Mvp has better mechanics/macro than Gumiho? Does MC have better mechanics/macro than Parting/Rain? Does Nestea have better mechanics/macro than HyuN?
you're labeling people for how they play the game, 1 unit group, 2, 3, whatever, it really doesnt matter. there was a bw pros that did not hotkey units at all, i have a friend that doesnt use group hotkey and he is doing fine in diamond, people should play however they're comfortable with.
i assume your question is rhetorical as such question should asked for a fun spirit filled fanboy debate and not as an absolute to explain who is better in what.
i'm not sure where everyone is going to get at with this "debate". a race is only good as the player that uses it, and perhaps some skillsets reward better for some race than other. but people debating what is easy and what is hard, its pathetic and sad from my perspective.
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This article makes sense in the context for "playing to win" players with no other interest in the game and have clear mechanical limits.
However I imagine platinum league and below, and high masters league and above, will not have this issue. The issue this article is discussing is narrow in range, even if I agree the points are valid.
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On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss.
It's pure cyclical repetition. Zero thought involved. A bit more APM intensive, sure, but not difficult at all.
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I switched from Terran to Zerg when zerg was getting owned and considered the hard race. Now I'm gonna play Terran and see how I can do 
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I don't see the point of this. Everytime I come to sc2 general I see a thread that x race is weaker than all the other races. This is proven by x statistics, but this will change when x happens with x.
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As a high-diamond random player, I completely agree. Maybe terran is a little too good when you're bronze silver because marines/marauders are even pretty solid if clumped up and left to fight any army that comes to attack them, you can queue up production and scans make it really easy to save yourself in a detection scenario/scout generally what the opponent is doing.
However, at diamond level surely Terran is far far more mechanically (and perhaps also strategically) demanding, as so much of your units effectiveness relies on microing them well/paying a lot of attention to your army. As an example, if zerg tries to rush you mid way across the map with ling/bane/muta vs. marine/tank/medivac, if you aren't watching the minimal and react as soon as zerg comes into your vision you will get wholesale slaughtered almost no matter what, all the zerg has to do is move past your army and then a-move to surround. If you're protoss, you can be almost completely surrounded by the time you notice, and you can ring yourself with forcefields as defence, or if you have colossus then it's pretty rare for the zerg to even try jump you unprepared anyways, because they need as much time as possible to perfect spine crawler defence, corruptor numbers and placement etc.
The relative disparity in remaining army between the winning and losing force after a battle is frequently far larger in situations when Terran is caught unprepared compared to when Protoss or Zerg is caught unprepared (Zerg can usually back out of a fight if they need to as well, plus good creep spread makes it even harder that you don't already know what's going on).
This isn't to say Zerg and Protoss don't have difficult aspects too, it's just that the challenge of Zerg is basically correctly droning/teching/units at the right time (and not much reliant on engagement micro, average for army awareness) which has a far larger margin for error than Terran which is highly reliant on engagement micro and army awareness (less about composition, timings etc.). Protoss is mostly about your overall strategic choices, spending chrono wisely, knowing what/when to warp in (and when you should be investing in gateways) as well as getting the right aoe at the right time. Engagement micro/army awareness/timings are less important. Protoss probably has the largest margin for error, simply because at about plat - master level you can rely on your Terran/Zerg opponent screwing up independently to let you back in the game a bit more.
These comments all come from sizeable (1500 or so) games as Random at Diamond level, but I think the principle applies to Master/GM players as well, Terran pros themselves talk about the main issue with their race being how it is quite unforgiving, only barely covered by the possibility for a comeback with extremely good micro.
Terran isn't underpowered, is probably the most powerful, but definitely the most difficult to use and also has the least margin for error.
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On January 19 2013 01:13 Powerfoe wrote:
I like how you wrote an essay complaining about how underpowered terran is and can still say, "I'm not saying terran is underpowered."
I like how you are dumb enough to write that. read the damn article before writing something that stupid.
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On January 19 2013 03:06 raga4ka wrote:
While in SC2 it's the opposite zerg and protoss have more cost effective late game and they could win , by just defending well.
People say this. But how many Zerg and Protoss can really compete with a 180 supply Terran army, made possible by sacrificing SCVs in favor of Orbital Commands?
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On January 19 2013 09:18 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 09:07 oscarsg wrote:On January 19 2013 08:56 SupLilSon wrote:On January 19 2013 08:50 oscarsg wrote:On January 19 2013 08:40 SupLilSon wrote:On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. Try using camera hotkeys and more than 3-4 control groups. It's really not that difficult... I can't tell you how many master/GM zergs I've seen playing with 3 control groups.... Parting uses only 2 hotkey groups for units, and YoDa does the same as a Terran. But hey, if the Zerg macro is so easy, why is it that no one is even close to HyuN's level of pure macro/mechanics? Why can he be the only one to do these amazing builds with multi-harassment, whilst expanding and getting 200/200 with Hive tech and 10+ infestors after 13 minutes? Why can Life keep his initial 8-10 lings alive forever, whilst other Zerg players loses them one after another? The ceiling hasn't been reached yet, and to talk about "easy mechanics" is an imbecile worthy. "Easier", maybe. What are you even talking about? No one is close to HyuN in macro and mechanics? How many GSLs has HyuN won? Oh yea... 0 So GSL wins = best mechanics? Does that mean that Mvp has better mechanics/macro than Gumiho? Does MC have better mechanics/macro than Parting/Rain? Does Nestea have better mechanics/macro than HyuN? i assume your question is rhetorical as such question should asked for a fun spirit filled fanboy debate and not as an absolute to explain who is better in what..
You're on the ball, mate.
I mean, if there are players that does things smoother, faster and better than others, for example HyuN or Life (who I think all stands out from the other Zergs in their own way), how can you say that their race is easy?
Control groups, injects, warp ins, proxy rax, micro, multitasking, you name it; it hasn't reached the ceiling yet. Do Protoss player's use their harassment-methods in the most optimal way yet? I don't believe that. Are Zerg player's able to hit all their injects at perfect times whilst controlling their army and spread creep? I don't believe that. Can Terran players improve their build orders so that they can give themselves a better defense/economy/attack in the early game/mid game/late game? I believe so.
If everything were so easy as people want it to be, more people would have contested for the GSL's. If it were so easy as people wants it to be, what's the point in practicing the same build order for 5 hours a day?
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On January 19 2013 09:18 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. It's pure cyclical repetition. Zero thought involved. A bit more APM intensive, sure, but not difficult at all.
Thats pretty much what macro is, repetition.
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On January 19 2013 09:31 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 09:18 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. It's pure cyclical repetition. Zero thought involved. A bit more APM intensive, sure, but not difficult at all. Thats pretty much what macro is, repetition.
The difference is that there is literally zero decision making required for injects. The optimal play is always to inject exactly as the previous inject finishes.
Terran macro (eg building more barracks) requires some degree of thought to it. Should I keep building units, or can I skimp a round so I have a stronger reinforcement later? Do I need more tech labs, more reactors, more barracks or more units? Is it better to get a second starport or more barracks (quick, scan protoss tech and hope to find out, then have a bit of an educated guess).
Not to mention that building a few barracks is slightly less apm intensive, but more varied in its execution. I have trained myself to flick through four location hotkeys and inject with each queen in under a second, and that process never ever changes. To build an additional two barracks, requires you to flick back to your main, select two scvs, then scroll around (or use a screen hotkey as I do, but many people don't) to find an empty space in your main, and put down both the barracks before jumping back to main CC and shift rallying scvs back to the mineral line. Remember that to avoid creating work for yourself later, you have to spend a moment figuring out where you can put the barracks so that you maximize space for future barracks without blocking in units either immeadiately or with any possible add ons to any other buildings in the vicinity. If you don't, then macroing later becomes demanding at inconvenient times when you need to fly around buildings and stuff to reorganize your earlier poor planning.
Edit: forgot to mention then adding those barracks to your control group, and using another screen hotkey jump to your natural (or other location) to re-rally all your production so that you don't constantly have to gather up spare units sitting next to barracks that you didn't rally with all the others. This process is much easier for zerg because you make far less hatcheries than a terran player does production facilities over the course of almost any game, as well as the core hotkey groups barely changing (with any inject method, at most you have to add a single queen to a hatchery/queen group about 3/4 times a game, where as the terran is constantly required to keep building and filling up production hotkey tabs and rallying them appropriately)
Sure, in a game of x length I will spend far more clicks on my inject process than on placing barracks, but the inject process is literally zero thought, where as there is actually quite a few considerations in the way you place/time your barracks. This is what he meant by it not being "difficult"
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On January 19 2013 09:31 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 09:18 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. It's pure cyclical repetition. Zero thought involved. A bit more APM intensive, sure, but not difficult at all. Thats pretty much what macro is, repetition.
imo the hardest part is keeping up with it meanwhile doing so many other things. to say its just repetition doesnt seem to draw the whole picture of how macro is important.
sc2 made me form a habit of pulling my army close to my main or safe area before/while i macro(something i didnt notice doing in bw), since few emp or forcefield or fungal without warning can end the game, one aspect why i think sc2 is so very much volatile.
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On January 19 2013 09:43 NDDseer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 09:31 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 09:18 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. It's pure cyclical repetition. Zero thought involved. A bit more APM intensive, sure, but not difficult at all. Thats pretty much what macro is, repetition. Terran macro (eg building more barracks) requires some degree of thought to it. Should I keep building units, or can I skimp a round so I have a stronger reinforcement later? Do I need more tech labs, more reactors, more barracks or more units? Is it better to get a second starport or more barracks (quick, scan protoss tech and hope to find out, then have a bit of an educated guess).
I guess no one ever over-drones anymore.
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On January 19 2013 09:43 NDDseer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 09:31 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 09:18 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. It's pure cyclical repetition. Zero thought involved. A bit more APM intensive, sure, but not difficult at all. Thats pretty much what macro is, repetition. The difference is that there is literally zero decision making required for injects. The optimal play is always to inject exactly as the previous inject finishes. Terran macro (eg building more barracks) requires some degree of thought to it. Should I keep building units, or can I skimp a round so I have a stronger reinforcement later? Do I need more tech labs, more reactors, more barracks or more units? Is it better to get a second starport or more barracks (quick, scan protoss tech and hope to find out, then have a bit of an educated guess). Not to mention that building a few barracks is slightly less apm intensive, but more varied in its execution. I have trained myself to flick through four location hotkeys and inject with each queen in under a second, and that process never ever changes. To build an additional two barracks, requires you to flick back to your main, select two scvs, then scroll around (or use a screen hotkey as I do, but many people don't) to find an empty space in your main, and put down both the barracks before jumping back to main CC and shift rallying scvs back to the mineral line. Remember that to avoid creating work for yourself later, you have to spend a moment figuring out where you can put the barracks so that you maximize space for future barracks without blocking in units either immeadiately or with any possible add ons to any other buildings in the vicinity. If you don't, then macroing later becomes demanding at inconvenient times when you need to fly around buildings and stuff to reorganize your earlier poor planning. Edit: forgot to mention then adding those barracks to your control group, and using another screen hotkey jump to your natural (or other location) to re-rally all your production so that you don't constantly have to gather up spare units sitting next to barracks that you didn't rally with all the others. This process is much easier for zerg because you make far less hatcheries than a terran player does production facilities over the course of almost any game, as well as the core hotkey groups barely changing (with any inject method, at most you have to add a single queen to a hatchery/queen group about 3/4 times a game, where as the terran is constantly required to keep building and filling up production hotkey tabs and rallying them appropriately) Sure, in a game of x length I will spend far more clicks on my inject process than on placing barracks, but the inject process is literally zero thought, where as there is actually quite a few considerations in the way you place/time your barracks. This is what he meant by it not being "difficult"
the hardest part of zerg macro is when to drone, when not to drone, from my experience. i'd compare injects to sending 3 workers to gas, in more often fashion
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On January 19 2013 09:43 NDDseer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 09:31 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 09:18 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. It's pure cyclical repetition. Zero thought involved. A bit more APM intensive, sure, but not difficult at all. Thats pretty much what macro is, repetition. The difference is that there is literally zero decision making required for injects. The optimal play is always to inject exactly as the previous inject finishes. Terran macro (eg building more barracks) requires some degree of thought to it. Should I keep building units, or can I skimp a round so I have a stronger reinforcement later? Do I need more tech labs, more reactors, more barracks or more units? Is it better to get a second starport or more barracks (quick, scan protoss tech and hope to find out, then have a bit of an educated guess). Not to mention that building a few barracks is slightly less apm intensive, but more varied in its execution. I have trained myself to flick through four location hotkeys and inject with each queen in under a second, and that process never ever changes. To build an additional two barracks, requires you to flick back to your main, select two scvs, then scroll around (or use a screen hotkey as I do, but many people don't) to find an empty space in your main, and put down both the barracks before jumping back to main CC and shift rallying scvs back to the mineral line. Remember that to avoid creating work for yourself later, you have to spend a moment figuring out where you can put the barracks so that you maximize space for future barracks without blocking in units either immeadiately or with any possible add ons to any other buildings in the vicinity. If you don't, then macroing later becomes demanding at inconvenient times when you need to fly around buildings and stuff to reorganize your earlier poor planning. Edit: forgot to mention then adding those barracks to your control group, and using another screen hotkey jump to your natural (or other location) to re-rally all your production so that you don't constantly have to gather up spare units sitting next to barracks that you didn't rally with all the others. This process is much easier for zerg because you make far less hatcheries than a terran player does production facilities over the course of almost any game, as well as the core hotkey groups barely changing (with any inject method, at most you have to add a single queen to a hatchery/queen group about 3/4 times a game, where as the terran is constantly required to keep building and filling up production hotkey tabs and rallying them appropriately) Sure, in a game of x length I will spend far more clicks on my inject process than on placing barracks, but the inject process is literally zero thought, where as there is actually quite a few considerations in the way you place/time your barracks. This is what he meant by it not being "difficult"
I know exactly what he meant lol, but when I play terran, for the most part I've practised my build so many times that I know what buildings I'm going to make and where generally. Of course there is choice, and of course you do have to flick back to make supply depots/raxes etc but for the most part it is still very repetitive.
I guess when I played zerg it was muta/bling vs terran, so I take issue with people saying that Zerg is this race where you can win with far less mechanical skill then there terran counterparts.
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On January 19 2013 09:48 oscarsg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 09:43 NDDseer wrote:On January 19 2013 09:31 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 09:18 forsooth wrote:On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. It's pure cyclical repetition. Zero thought involved. A bit more APM intensive, sure, but not difficult at all. Thats pretty much what macro is, repetition. Terran macro (eg building more barracks) requires some degree of thought to it. Should I keep building units, or can I skimp a round so I have a stronger reinforcement later? Do I need more tech labs, more reactors, more barracks or more units? Is it better to get a second starport or more barracks (quick, scan protoss tech and hope to find out, then have a bit of an educated guess). I guess no one ever over-drones anymore.
The overdroning will lose you the game as rapidly as fucking up all your production, sure, but the problem is that the main obstacle for zerg is looking after their drone/tech choices and less about microing, army positioning/awareness etc. So while shitty macro can lose you the game for either race, it's FAR FAR easier for terran to lose the game because of not watching their army properly, not microing engagements well, not having the multitasking to force zerg to respond to attacks in multiple locations (compare how often terran players drop vs zerg players do ling runbys, reality is that terran is the "active" player in forcing increased multitasking by both players). So if zerg fucks up their macro, they lose, but if they don't they have quite a margin of error for army awareness, micro, multitasking due to speed/mobility of zerg units. If terran fucks up their macro, they lose, but if while focussing on macro they miss a critical (read, any engagement ever) moment for micro, army awareness, multitasking, they lose as well with far less margin for error.
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