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i think talking about balance at low leagues is irrelevant. bronze player play is so bad that it doesnt matter what race they play they still will make mistakes and lose alot. how many bronze zergs can hit prefect fungals to hold off blink stalkers, while spiliting there infestors and broods to avoid vortex? how many bronze terrans can pre-split their marines to avoid fungals while focus firing banes with tanks? how many protosses while hit that prefect force-field to hold off the terran army pushing up the ramp with medvac support? the only thing that really matters in lower leagues is learning to marco better then ur opponents. there are plently of videos and guides on just pumping pure MMM in all 3 matchups and 1a'ing and wining against anything with just having more shit then the opponent. now to the point of terran being harder at lower leagues? yes if lower leagues try to emulate the pros with multi drops and splitting and macro no duh they will be harder to play. but the point is lower leagues don't and shouldn't do that and should only focus on marco and improving that. trying to balance a game around play with terrible mechanics is foolish. just my thoughts
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I think it will remain this way, because Terran remains significantly harder to play while being weaker at almost all stages of the game.
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On January 19 2013 07:20 DemigodcelpH wrote:
I think it will remain this way, because Terran remains significantly harder to play while being weaker at almost all stages of the game.
hahahahaha
User was warned for this post
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On January 19 2013 07:31 MangoMountain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 07:20 DemigodcelpH wrote:
I think it will remain this way, because Terran remains significantly harder to play while being weaker at almost all stages of the game. hahahahaha
Thanks for your valuable input. You should let terrans whine quietly if you don't even know what to say in response
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It's nice to see I'm not the only one who struggles in TvZ. I have tried everything short of switching races. I'd venture to guess my TvZ win rate is in the 30%-40% range. I simply do not know what to do against mass fungals. It is the bane of my existence. So much so that I quit Sc2 and went back to D2. LOL
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I think we'll end up with a relatively balanced game (compared to the zerg-fest that was WOL) with HotS but Terran is still going to be the most difficult race to play because of how multitask oriented the race is.
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On January 19 2013 07:54 KingKayzz wrote:
It's nice to see I'm not the only one who struggles in TvZ. I have tried everything short of switching races. I'd venture to guess my TvZ win rate is in the 30%-40% range. I simply do not know what to do against mass fungals. It is the bane of my existence. So much so that I quit Sc2 and went back to D2. LOL
Yea tons of people have transitioned to either DOTA or LoL. I literally hit a point with Terran where my macro could no longer pull me through the lag shitstorms that SC2 gives my computer. Any sort of lag with Terran basically makes the game unplayable as 1 mistake means you lose. I see a lot of ROOT guys playing DOTA2 lol...
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The problem with terran is the fact that while they aren't hard to learn, they are hard to use properly. They are more subject to subtle control errors and thus give the illusion of being weak. Terran is like a fighter jet vs a propeller plane. The propeller plane such as a P51 mustang is much easier to learn and in a battle between two noobs the P51 would win, even if its because the noob in the jet crashed into a mountain somewhere. In a battle between two aces, we know the jet would completely destroy the easier to master P51. Its all down to how touchy the joystick is.
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On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true.
You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss.
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Terran is the only race in the game where micro is not optional. In many scenerios standard armies (roach/ling/hydra/muta, stalker/zealot/archon/HT/sentry/colossus) of P and Z need very little micro and positioning, and a few spell casts to win. Terran requires constant kiting in both directions (an ultra-high APM sink), pre-engagement positioning and jockeying/threatening. Terran is the only race that necessitates army splitting/grouping management to dodge AoE abilities.
If you don't see how difficult it is to play Terran at the diamond level and above, you have clearly never tried. I have a build where I can maintain >95 SQ until about the 15 minute mark and it's still easy to lose games because of one second of not paying attention/mismicroing. Trust me, the other races are much, much more forgiving of these mistakes. The truth is Terran is very strong early, but becomes significantly more difficult to play as the game length goes on, whereas the game gets easier and easier to play as the game goes on for the other races. This is a fundamental imbalance, even if the game is balanced at a 50-50 rate. It forces a specific play-style from T which is no fun.
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On January 19 2013 08:15 SirKibbleX wrote:
Terran is the only race in the game where micro is not optional. In many scenerios standard armies (roach/ling/hydra/muta, stalker/zealot/archon/HT/sentry/colossus) of P and Z need very little micro and positioning, and a few spell casts to win. Terran requires constant kiting in both directions (an ultra-high APM sink), pre-engagement positioning and jockeying/threatening. Terran is the only race that necessitates army splitting/grouping management to dodge AoE abilities.
Have you ever played ZvZ muta vs infestor? Or ZvT when Ling bane muta was dominant? Mutalisks are just as micro oriented as most Terran units, not splitting banes means you will be very cost ineffective against a Terran who target fires with tanks, and mutas get raped hard if you clump when thors hit the field. Combine with all the harass potential mutas have, and the ability to wear down groups of Terran marines with muta blobs. Against splash you have to split and/or magic box (Fungal, storm, Thors) I agree that most P/Z unit comps require comparatively less micro, but ling bane muta is just not one of them.
Humorously because of its difficulty it has fallen out of favor due to the much easier, deathball-y infestor style. It makes the Terran and Zerg in me sad =///
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On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss.
Diamond offrace this doesn't feel that hard, then again, it's only diamond :/
But the constant macro for terran while microing feels harder and more unforgiving
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Thing is, Terran, I feel, has the lowest skill floor, but the highest skill ceiling. I play all three races pretty evenly, and I always feel that I don't perform well as terran because I just don't have the speed to macro solidly, and then worry about micro. I average about 60-70 APM (doesn't matter, just a reference point) and I feel like of the three races, I fall behind when macro-ing as terran.
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On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss.
Try using camera hotkeys and more than 3-4 control groups. It's really not that difficult... I can't tell you how many master/GM zergs I've seen playing with 3 control groups....
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On January 19 2013 08:34 Koesader wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. Diamond offrace this doesn't feel that hard, then again, it's only diamond :/ But the constant macro for terran while microing feels harder and more unforgiving
It should feel hard since there isnt a pro zerg in the world who keeps his energy below 40 after 15min with more then 3 hatches.
People seem to forget just how hard it is to muta/ling/bling and are now assuming that zerg is just faceroll because theyre winning.
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On January 19 2013 08:40 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. Try using camera hotkeys and more than 3-4 control groups. It's really not that difficult... I can't tell you how many master/GM zergs I've seen playing with 3 control groups....
I put all my queens for injecting on one hotkey. f1 v f2 v etc
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yea at high masters level its a lot easier for a terran to just lose the game to a bad push or if your opponent gets a good storm and warps in 20 zealots.
If you want to win as terran you have to be at least somewhat aggressive, while z/p can play passive and win just fine.
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On January 19 2013 08:46 EleanorRIgby wrote:
yea at high masters level its a lot easier for a terran to just lose the game to a bad push or if your opponent gets a good storm and warps in 20 zealots.
If you want to win as terran you have to be at least somewhat aggressive, while z/p can play passive and win just fine.
That beyond anything is the major problem with the queen change, before hand 2hatch muta into muta/bling was prevalent and the games that zerg put out vs terran at least were just beautiful.
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On January 19 2013 08:40 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 08:02 bo1b wrote:On January 19 2013 02:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On January 19 2013 01:59 TsGBruzze wrote:On January 19 2013 01:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
I have said this for long time, and I say this again. Terran is the hardest race by far, both mechanically and strategically.
Terran has been nerfed to the ground so many times that I have lost track, and blizzards unability to make mech work in TvP despite many attemps and opportunities tells me that nothing is going to change. I would say that terran as it is now, is in wrong game because other two races are just so much more mobile and flexible that terran has hard time to compete with them in any aspect of the game. i cant agree with you, i played terran a long time, a very long time and just recently wanted to switch. and in my experience i must say zerg strategy and macro is hard, hell even the micro is hard unless you go for infestors... Please, you cant seriously say that zerg has harder macro while only thing they need to build is hatchery and occasional tech building while terran constantly has to build new production facilities and addons and pay attention to merciless production cycles while zerg can forget those because larva does not disappear anywhere. Also eventually terran runs out of space and needs to build stuff to more vulnerable places. Micro harder for zerg you say? How can you even compare your baneling a-move to marine splits that require good reaction times and fast actions otherwise all marines are gonna melt away. This game also makes autoflank so well that you dont neccesarily need to pay attention to battle at all while for terran this is never true. You ever kept up injects on 5 hatches + creep spread? Zerg macro is hard lol, the only race with easy as shit macro is protoss. Try using camera hotkeys and more than 3-4 control groups. It's really not that difficult... I can't tell you how many master/GM zergs I've seen playing with 3 control groups....
Parting uses only 2 hotkey groups for units, and YoDa does the same as a Terran.
But hey, if the Zerg macro is so easy, why is it that no one is even close to HyuN's level of pure macro/mechanics? Why can he be the only one to do these amazing builds with multi-harassment, whilst expanding and getting 200/200 with Hive tech and 10+ infestors after 13 minutes? Why can Life keep his initial 8-10 lings alive forever, whilst other Zerg players loses them one after another?
The ceiling hasn't been reached yet, and to talk about "easy mechanics" is an imbecile worthy. "Easier", maybe.
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On January 19 2013 08:46 EleanorRIgby wrote:
yea at high masters level its a lot easier for a terran to just lose the game to a bad push or if your opponent gets a good storm and warps in 20 zealots.
If you want to win as terran you have to be at least somewhat aggressive, while z/p can play passive and win just fine.
This philosophy was completely fine before they made all the aggression so easy to hold off without really sacrificing any economy for it.
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EPT
