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On January 17 2013 12:55 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 12:25 MrCon wrote:On January 17 2013 11:54 vthree wrote:On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake. Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time. Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results. Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out.
that's a long time ago and they have been consitent in gsl code S
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TLADT24920 Posts
I think the format is really different is why. In GSL, they are used to being given time to prepare for a specific MU for a set of maps so they can fully focus on that one MU where in proleague, it can be any MU that they play which includes their weakest. That and maybe they aren't taking proleague as seriously as the KeSPA players which is a mistake imo.
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On January 17 2013 13:15 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 12:55 vthree wrote:On January 17 2013 12:25 MrCon wrote:On January 17 2013 11:54 vthree wrote:On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake. Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time. Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results. Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out. No, DRG qualified for Code A on his own, couldn't make it to Code S that season, showing that maybe he wasn't ready. He got seeded, dropped out in ro16, which allowed him to stay in Code S in the old system. Next season he dropped out in ro32, but this time made it back to Code S on his own. When he finally won Code S, he had proven that he deserved to be there, and since then he has proven it even further, by going past ro32 and making an OSL finals even during the deepest slump of his career. Naniwa, on the other hand, got seeded in the season when Protoss was extremely dominant in the metagame and completely avoided his weakest matchup for 2 seasons in a row. As soon as that run was over, dropped out in first round of Code S, then completely out of GSL in 1st round of Code A. Comparing Naniwa and DRG is the perfect example of the point I was trying to make. MC is a different story. He was Code S for a long time before he was seeded, and for a long time after that. He's known to be good at winning, even when he isn't the best.
I have to agree with sitromit on this one,although I think there are more factors to consider. Like physical environment, tournament format and the players themselves.
LG-IMMvp is a great all-round player, but he's definitely better at prep; MarineKing is definitely better than off the fly play. Playing a BO1 is different than playing an extended series. Playing from the open bracket all the way to the winners bracket is different in 3 days is definitely more taxing than playing a BO7 that you had adequate time to prepare. Proleague is a BO1. Kespa players don't seem to have as much stamina or as many builds as eSF players. The damn air conditioning is different. You get where I'm coming from.
Also as sitromit pointed out, there's not enough time for a longitudinal study on Kespa players in SC2. We can draw arcs and timelines for players who've been around for more than two years, but we can't make accurate assumptions about players who've not been there - Code S - (Stephano) or who've not been in Code S for a long time (Kespa players).
You can start to correlate this trend though, by comparing them to championships. The age of the three kings are over for GSL (Nestea, MC, Mvp). The last dominant player I remember is DRG (but he's won one gsl?).
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I think some players benefit from preparation more and some are just talented at all aspects of the game and can think on their feet really well. The different formats make different players shine, and then you will have players who come along and do well all the time.
The format of MLG has more in common with pro league, than GSL does. You never know who your gonna face next.
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On January 17 2013 15:17 winthrop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 12:55 vthree wrote:On January 17 2013 12:25 MrCon wrote:On January 17 2013 11:54 vthree wrote:On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake. Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time. Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results. Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out. that's a long time ago and they have been consitent in gsl code S
Doesn't matter. It just shows being seeded does not necessary mean you will do bad. So there is no correlation between seed and results. Some seeds bomb out and never make it back. Some seeds use that chance and become Code S main stays. It all depends on the player's performance afterwards.
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On January 17 2013 16:03 Reborn8u wrote:
I think some players benefit from preparation more and some are just talented at all aspects of the game and can think on their feet really well. The different formats make different players shine, and then you will have players who come along and do well all the time.
The format of MLG has more in common with pro league, than GSL does. You never know who your gonna face next.
Actually, it depends on which round. AK round is 'closer' to MLG format (except for starting match). The 'normal' rounds are similar to Code S. Actually, the normal rounds is even more preparation based (except ACE) since it is 1 opponent, 1 map.
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On January 17 2013 15:58 ke_ivan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 13:15 sitromit wrote:On January 17 2013 12:55 vthree wrote:On January 17 2013 12:25 MrCon wrote:On January 17 2013 11:54 vthree wrote:On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake. Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time. Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results. Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out. No, DRG qualified for Code A on his own, couldn't make it to Code S that season, showing that maybe he wasn't ready. He got seeded, dropped out in ro16, which allowed him to stay in Code S in the old system. Next season he dropped out in ro32, but this time made it back to Code S on his own. When he finally won Code S, he had proven that he deserved to be there, and since then he has proven it even further, by going past ro32 and making an OSL finals even during the deepest slump of his career. Naniwa, on the other hand, got seeded in the season when Protoss was extremely dominant in the metagame and completely avoided his weakest matchup for 2 seasons in a row. As soon as that run was over, dropped out in first round of Code S, then completely out of GSL in 1st round of Code A. Comparing Naniwa and DRG is the perfect example of the point I was trying to make. MC is a different story. He was Code S for a long time before he was seeded, and for a long time after that. He's known to be good at winning, even when he isn't the best. I have to agree with sitromit on this one,although I think there are more factors to consider. Like physical environment, tournament format and the players themselves. LG-IMMvp is a great all-round player, but he's definitely better at prep; MarineKing is definitely better than off the fly play. Playing a BO1 is different than playing an extended series. Playing from the open bracket all the way to the winners bracket is different in 3 days is definitely more taxing than playing a BO7 that you had adequate time to prepare. Proleague is a BO1. Kespa players don't seem to have as much stamina or as many builds as eSF players. The damn air conditioning is different. You get where I'm coming from. Also as sitromit pointed out, there's not enough time for a longitudinal study on Kespa players in SC2. We can draw arcs and timelines for players who've been around for more than two years, but we can't make accurate assumptions about players who've not been there - Code S - (Stephano) or who've not been in Code S for a long time (Kespa players). You can start to correlate this trend though, by comparing them to championships. The age of the three kings are over for GSL (Nestea, MC, Mvp). The last dominant player I remember is DRG (but he's won one gsl?).
Well, the seasons are much lengthier as well. So you have to be dominant for like 4 months to have multiple GSLs as oppose to dominant for 2 months in 2011. And I would say LIfe is pretty dominant currently (Season 4 winner, Bliz Cup).
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Frankly, losing a Bo1 is a lot less meaningful then losing a Bo3/5/7, especially because those Code S players probably focus more time on Code S, since--especially in all-kill format--it's a bit easier to prep for Code S.
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I think the easy answer is maps and snipers
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On January 17 2013 11:20 Ruscour wrote:
GuMiho - average GSL player, almost single handedly won two GSTL finals.
Different players do better in different formats, while it is an interesting observation I don't think it actually reflects anything on a skill difference or the integrity of Proleague/GSL.
This. GuMiho is basically living proof of the difference between tournaments. Different people do well in different formats and take time to replicate their form from one format to another, some never manage it. Take IM. They've got EIGHT Code S titles on that team. Plus three second place finishes and three semi-finalist finishes. Yet only one GSTL title.
Hell, look at HyuN. That guy absolutely demolished literally all comers in IPL Fight Club for more than three months straight taking out solid players from all three races such as Squirtle, ByuN and the Code S champion Life. He was absolutely terrifying in online competitions.
His GSL record for 2012? Code A RO48, DNQ, Code A RO24, Code A RO24. It wasn't until the very end of the year where he was finally able to replicate his online success in the GSL with a Code S 2nd place.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 16 2013 21:58 NovemberstOrm wrote:
Different formats, different maps.
This of course.
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i miss the times that you had real names that where always good, now it.s like in sc2 players are good for 2 months and then somebody else skillwise take there place already.... is the factor luck so big or something?
I didnt remember this was also in sc1
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On January 17 2013 21:14 Senshin wrote:
i miss the times that you had real names that where always good, now it.s like in sc2 players are good for 2 months and then somebody else skillwise take there place already.... is the factor luck so big or something?
I didnt remember this was also in sc1
The luck factor is much bigger in SC2.
In BW, the best player in the world might be an 80-90% favorite against quality competition. Long winning streaks are more likely to happen, and the best players consistently went far in tournaments.
In SC2, the best player is much less of a favorite. It reminds me of poker, if you're all in with top pair against a flush draw... sure you'll win more often than others, but you won't win all the time.
If you see MVP or Life or Parting in a tournament... it really isn't a surprise at all if they lose a game vs a second-rate or third-rate player. It just happens all the time. And with some bad luck or an unexpected allin, they might even lose 2-1 to a weaker player.
It's just the way that SC2 is designed... it rewards crazy high APM less, it rewards micro less... it's more about strategy vs strategy, and the design of the game just allows any decent pro to reach the finals of a tournament if he's playing well and getting lucky with build choices.
IMHO the GSL players are the best in the world, because a format that has best-of-3 and best-of-5 matches allows for skilled players to win more often and lucky players to have their luck run out. In single-game Proleague, any pro player can win one game, and the results will be unpredictable.
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@chocobo
If its all about micro then why were the two most micro dependent matchups (pvp and zvz) the ones people hated the most early on in SC2? Early sc2 was all about aggression, fast perfect micro, where getting out just 1-2 collosus was considered game over. It was the fanbase who asked SC2 to be moved away from that. With enough nerfs the aggression stopped and the turtling began.
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The maps are different for one. Arkanoid is one such extreme example that renders certain play-styles ineffective. Also, the Kespa players are largely unknown seeing as how it's the first few months since they made their transition into Sc2. The kespa players typically play with a different style or meta, combine that with the lack of concrete knowledge in terms of what each player's play style is like, it's difficult to prepare against them and mind-games will not work as well either. A good example of this MKP, everyone knows he's an aggressive and greedy player. At some point after his MLG wins, people figured that out and started using that against him. It's also fair to say proleague puts a different kind of pressure since they were essentially playing against legends that were known in bw to have have good decision making and often possess good strategic mind.
Let's not forget the worst part of proleague, which is the BO1 format. That adds a random factor of luck where if you somehow blind counter or pull off an all in, the player doing so will win. There's obviously no rematch which makes it difficult even if players like Taeja is obviously mechanically superior and has better decision making/control over his opponents.
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On January 17 2013 21:07 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 11:20 Ruscour wrote:
GuMiho - average GSL player, almost single handedly won two GSTL finals.
Different players do better in different formats, while it is an interesting observation I don't think it actually reflects anything on a skill difference or the integrity of Proleague/GSL. This. GuMiho is basically living proof of the difference between tournaments. Different people do well in different formats and take time to replicate their form from one format to another, some never manage it. Take IM. They've got EIGHT Code S titles on that team. Plus three second place finishes and three semi-finalist finishes. Yet only one GSTL title. Hell, look at HyuN. That guy absolutely demolished literally all comers in IPL Fight Club for more than three months straight taking out solid players from all three races such as Squirtle, ByuN and the Code S champion Life. He was absolutely terrifying in online competitions. His GSL record for 2012? Code A RO48, DNQ, Code A RO24, Code A RO24. It wasn't until the very end of the year where he was finally able to replicate his online success in the GSL with a Code S 2nd place.
But when we are talking about who is more accomplished it always goes to those who do well in individual leagues.
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On January 17 2013 21:14 Senshin wrote:
i miss the times that you had real names that where always good, now it.s like in sc2 players are good for 2 months and then somebody else skillwise take there place already.... is the factor luck so big or something?
I didnt remember this was also in sc1
Did you miss 2011 and the reign of Mvp, Nestea and (a little less) MC?
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On January 18 2013 01:03 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 21:07 Lightspeaker wrote:On January 17 2013 11:20 Ruscour wrote:
GuMiho - average GSL player, almost single handedly won two GSTL finals.
Different players do better in different formats, while it is an interesting observation I don't think it actually reflects anything on a skill difference or the integrity of Proleague/GSL. This. GuMiho is basically living proof of the difference between tournaments. Different people do well in different formats and take time to replicate their form from one format to another, some never manage it. Take IM. They've got EIGHT Code S titles on that team. Plus three second place finishes and three semi-finalist finishes. Yet only one GSTL title. Hell, look at HyuN. That guy absolutely demolished literally all comers in IPL Fight Club for more than three months straight taking out solid players from all three races such as Squirtle, ByuN and the Code S champion Life. He was absolutely terrifying in online competitions. His GSL record for 2012? Code A RO48, DNQ, Code A RO24, Code A RO24. It wasn't until the very end of the year where he was finally able to replicate his online success in the GSL with a Code S 2nd place. But when we are talking about who is more accomplished it always goes to those who do well in individual leagues.
Thats....not really relevant to my post or this thread.
The question was "why are Code S level players not doing as well in Proleague". The fact that individual leagues are generally used to define who is more accomplished has nothing to do with that question at all.
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I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NTfCK.png?1)
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