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Yeah i miss the real names in sc2 too 
3 or 6 months are nothing. Mvp won 5 GSL but against 5 different opponents. Real names exists only if 2 player meet again and again in the grandfinals. I expect the same with leenock and life, in ~3 months they are "forgotten" again.
There was a hope for me with MKP vs DRG with 3 grandfinals in a row (MLG).
example from other rts games:
Flash vs JaeDong (especially 2010).
in wc3 from 2004 until 2010, ~80% of all grandfinals were: Grubby vs Moon, Moon vs ToD, Grubby vs ToD, Moon vs Sky, Sky vs Grubby, Sky vs ToD (and later Lyn was able to jump in that group 2006-2010 and Lucifron 2007-2010).
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On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing. Also at that time it was a commitment to play BW as a pro in Korea. In Sc2 the fresh blood can raise freely without being held back by the system.
Another thing is that people slacked off when they were on top, the entrance of kespa changed that and everyone is working hard again.
Before it went mostly liks this, top koreans in the gsl got invites to tons of events and dropped of afterwards. Not really surprising when they lose weeks of practice that way.
But anyway if you looked at the foreign scene and ignored Mondragon, the dominance was also changing quiet often. So it might be an indication that Sc2 is still young and people haven't found out how to dominate or are to far from this level of perfection. Because the game is more complex/faster then BW as an exchange for the easier mechanics. (which people still don't use to its fullest).
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Each tournament needs different preperation. In proleague you have a set map and you train on that map, either vs a specific opponent (aka sniper build) or all mus on that given map.
On GSL you prepare for a specific opponent, so your coaches find holes in his strategy/gameplay and you exploit them.
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That's a pretty small sample size and you don't compare their records in GSL.
Compare this:
ProLeague
taeja (6-3)
soulkey (6-4)
stephano (2-2)
bogus (6-8)
TY (5-7)
roro (6-8)
huk (0-2)
GSL (set wins)
taeja (73-49)
soulkey (8-8)
stephano (2-2)
bogus (18-8)
TY (8-7)
roro (13-5)
huk (31-37)
Only Bogus and Roro are substantially different between the two leagues. Huk is different too but 2 games in ProLeague isn't enough to draw any conclusions.
EDIT: Note that GSL results include Code A, which is a better apples-to-apples comparison because ProLeague doesn't make any kind of distinction. But top to bottom, the players in both leagues seem to be doing about the same. I'd fully expect Parting to also have a similar ProLeague win % as he had in GSL (71-52).
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On January 18 2013 02:47 Dingodile wrote:Yeah i miss the real names in sc2 too 3 or 6 months are nothing. Mvp won 5 GSL but against 5 different opponents. Real names exists only if 2 player meet again and again in the grandfinals. I expect the same with leenock and life, in ~3 months they are "forgotten" again. There was a hope for me with MKP vs DRG with 3 grandfinals in a row (MLG). example from other rts games: Flash vs JaeDong (especially 2010). in wc3 from 2004 until 2010, ~80% of all grandfinals were: Grubby vs Moon, Moon vs ToD, Grubby vs ToD, Moon vs Sky, Sky vs Grubby, Sky vs ToD (and later Lyn was able to jump in that group 2006-2010 and Lucifron 2007-2010).
Afaik Mvp just won 4 GSLs up until now, still waiting for his G5L special trophy.
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On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe 
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On January 18 2013 02:50 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong. Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing. Also at that time it was a commitment to play BW as a pro in Korea. In Sc2 the fresh blood can raise freely without being held back by the system. Another thing is that people slacked off when they were on top, the entrance of kespa changed that and everyone is working hard again. Before it went mostly liks this, top koreans in the gsl got invites to tons of events and dropped of afterwards. Not really surprising when they lose weeks of practice that way. But anyway if you looked at the foreign scene and ignored Mondragon, the dominance was also changing quiet often. So it might be an indication that Sc2 is still young and people haven't found out how to dominate or are to far from this level of perfection. Because the game is more complex/faster then BW as an exchange for the easier mechanics. (which people still don't use to its fullest).
Players being held back by the system? What the hell? You do realize that the Up & Down's act very similar to that of Survival and other prelims of actually getting in. The players were given all the resources and if they do good in practice they get called up to the A-Team. I don't buy into holding players back with the inner ranking tournaments they held in house. Stork did play WoW for a year and people noticed he dropped off a bit. He also had a girlfriend at the time. Some would argue you earned that free time and he was older brother. Yes, there are several cases where players got too comfortable and let go of the rope for a bit and they fell. I guess you could raise some questions with regards to a few players as to why they would still be on the main roster when they've played pretty bad for an extended period of time. Sure.
With regards to players like MC, he's an exceptional case due to the number of opportunities he receives and the cash he's made. Like I said, he gets invited to every other tournament I can think of. Definitely helps when he's the only SC2 player on SK and they can spare no expense for him. I like to call MC consistently inconsistent as he still nets results. As for the dominance by foreigners in BW? Yes and no. It's been the usual suspects always and there are several guys out there who would tell you prior to guys like JF doing what he did in the TSL that they could call it a mile away considering how many teams he's been on and how he developed as a player. BW was a lot easier to gauge personally for me.
On January 18 2013 03:43 MyNameIsAlex wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong. i have news for you, nestea is back. Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life. You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz. Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
There are plenty of guys who don't pay enough attention to the scene including all the so-called personalities in the scene and you cannot really blame them because there is so much crap going on. It's really hard to get thorough information unless you actually hire someone to do it for you. Just saying.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
Mvp has 6 GSL final appearances over the course of two years, with a game that has been out for ~2-3 years I don't know what else to call a big name... :s
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The first problem is that it's a bo1 so there's no chance to come back if you lose a game. That way even if you play a player that you can beat in a bo3 or bo5 but in a bo1 if you lose your first game you're out. Imagine if it was a bo5 and then the player who lost the first game would win 3 times in a row and have 3-1 victory. So the format has a lot of influence.
The second part is that players prepare against you, and the better you are the easier it is to learn your style. So code s players can be easily countered by weaker players and lose to them, especially in the bo1 situation I mentioned earlier.
I think that's most of the reasons, perhaps also the maps influence this since they are different and might have different imbalances.
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On January 18 2013 07:15 Adonminus wrote:
The first problem is that it's a bo1 so there's no chance to come back if you lose a game.
Not true, or more accurately it does not apply, because OP wants to make a statement about the groups, not about individuals. However, there is no reason to expect a difference between these groups, based on the current evidence.
On January 18 2013 07:15 Adonminus wrote:
The second part is that players prepare against you,
This also does not apply, for the same reason.
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It's probably a sample size problems. Taeja got 66% wins in Proleague, where as he got a "mere" 60% win in GSL. Even if you really good, you need to have enough games to get your ELO up.
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On January 18 2013 02:50 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong. Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing.
Oh the ignorance.
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On January 18 2013 02:50 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong. Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing. Also at that time it was a commitment to play BW as a pro in Korea. In Sc2 the fresh blood can raise freely without being held back by the system. Another thing is that people slacked off when they were on top, the entrance of kespa changed that and everyone is working hard again. Before it went mostly liks this, top koreans in the gsl got invites to tons of events and dropped of afterwards. Not really surprising when they lose weeks of practice that way. But anyway if you looked at the foreign scene and ignored Mondragon, the dominance was also changing quiet often. So it might be an indication that Sc2 is still young and people haven't found out how to dominate or are to far from this level of perfection. Because the game is more complex/faster then BW as an exchange for the easier mechanics. (which people still don't use to its fullest).
what the f...?
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Individual Leagues and Proleague isn't the same. Some exceptional players do well in both, but its rare. You could even reverse the argument around and ask why are the top performers in proleague are not in gsl. It was the same in bw.
On January 18 2013 08:33 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 02:50 FeyFey wrote:On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong. Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing. Also at that time it was a commitment to play BW as a pro in Korea. In Sc2 the fresh blood can raise freely without being held back by the system. Another thing is that people slacked off when they were on top, the entrance of kespa changed that and everyone is working hard again. Before it went mostly liks this, top koreans in the gsl got invites to tons of events and dropped of afterwards. Not really surprising when they lose weeks of practice that way. But anyway if you looked at the foreign scene and ignored Mondragon, the dominance was also changing quiet often. So it might be an indication that Sc2 is still young and people haven't found out how to dominate or are to far from this level of perfection. Because the game is more complex/faster then BW as an exchange for the easier mechanics. (which people still don't use to its fullest). what the f...?
I think he's right in saying that things have worked out well for kespa, in terms of the results, but implying that there's some sort of fraud at hand is a little bit much.
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On January 18 2013 03:43 MyNameIsAlex wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong. i have news for you, nestea is back. Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life. You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz. Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
SC2 is not a new game.
And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
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I think a lot of pro players are nearing the skill ceiling and so the game is just very volatile now because one player can not distinguish themselves based solely on skill to a great enough extent from other players. You have to keep in mind there is a human skill ceiling as well as actual theoretical game skill ceiling. Humans will always make small mistakes in a game of imperfect information and can only multitask and control so many thing as once even if the game has higher ceiling.
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On January 18 2013 09:23 snakeeyez wrote:
I think a lot of pro players are nearing the skill ceiling and so the game is just very volatile now because one player can not distinguish themselves based solely on skill to a great enough extent from other players. You have to keep in mind there is a human skill ceiling as well as actual theoretical game skill ceiling. Humans will always make small mistakes in a game of imperfect information and can only multitask and control so many thing as once even if the game has higher ceiling.
I remember when Bobby Fisher reached the skill ceiling in chess. Didn't matter how young he was, his APM just didn't matter versus those old guys. Had to rely on brains.
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On January 18 2013 09:14 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 03:43 MyNameIsAlex wrote:On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong. i have news for you, nestea is back. Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life. You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz. Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe SC2 is not a new game. And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years?
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On January 18 2013 10:23 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 09:14 Dfgj wrote:On January 18 2013 03:43 MyNameIsAlex wrote:On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong. i have news for you, nestea is back. Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life. You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz. Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe SC2 is not a new game. And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it. But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years?
from 01 to 06 in osl finals, the names he mentioned (boxer, nada, oov) takes majority of the spots (at least one of the finalists)
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On January 18 2013 10:30 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 10:23 Assirra wrote:On January 18 2013 09:14 Dfgj wrote:On January 18 2013 03:43 MyNameIsAlex wrote:On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote:
I didnt miss anything but what reign?
Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved)
In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time.
There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong. i have news for you, nestea is back. Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life. You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz. Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe SC2 is not a new game. And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it. But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years? from 01 to 06 in osl finals, the names he mentioned (boxer, nada, oov) takes majority of the spots (at least one of the finalists)
So that is 5-6year long.
And might i add that this was 3 year after BW came out yet people now already want a game that is not even 3 year old, has no expansions to do the same.
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EPT
