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On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes context is everything. I wish people would stop jumping the gun.
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i find that the title leads to misunderstanding.
should change to 'why kespa's code s players xxxxxxx.........blablabla'
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Remember Flash's up & Down matches? How he all killed EGTL in Proleague then didn't even make it to wildcards? He's the opposite end of the coin. Code S players don't want to show their builds in a BO1 match that won't bring them closer to a glorious Code S pin and whopping amount of money. Whereas Flash continues to dominate Proleague but not make it into Code S
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Can think of several reasons
1) Map - can see clearly from EG-TL players - big big issue I think, Kespa players have been playing and practising on those map for years
2) Priority - think code S players no doubt would focus more on Code S, practising less for pro-league (just by comparsion to Kespa players who pretty much 100% focus on proleague ) , not revealing their "secret" strategy in pro-leageu
3) Coach Decision - not putting up they best player in the matchup or snipe situation would no doubt reduce win-rate
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GuMiho - average GSL player, almost single handedly won two GSTL finals.
Different players do better in different formats, while it is an interesting observation I don't think it actually reflects anything on a skill difference or the integrity of Proleague/GSL.
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On January 17 2013 11:09 DavoS wrote:
Remember Flash's up & Down matches? How he all killed EGTL in Proleague then didn't even make it to wildcards? He's the opposite end of the coin. Code S players don't want to show their builds in a BO1 match that won't bring them closer to a glorious Code S pin and whopping amount of money. Whereas Flash continues to dominate Proleague but not make it into Code S
Huh? Flash is pretty consistent in what he does when it comes to his game plan regardless. He's sort of asking you to do your darndest to stop him from doing what he's about to do. As for Flash's all-kill on TL and EG players. Sometimes you need a little lady luck on your side. That's not to say he didn't play great because he did and he forced his opponent's hand. In today's game it's very easy to get some reads on what your opponents are going to do so I rather avoid the showing & telling of builds because you always want to be scouting your opponent regardless. In PL cheese or early game tactics don't always work out (in fact they rarely do), so they go with plan B. Yes, JD resting was a tactical move. No question. When we compare the Up & Downs to PL though? It always comes down to one game at a time for both. In other words, they're very similar when you take out the money value. One game at a time because one game can cost you either way.
On January 17 2013 11:20 Ruscour wrote:
GuMiho - average GSL player, almost single handedly won two GSTL finals.
Different players do better in different formats, while it is an interesting observation I don't think it actually reflects anything on a skill difference or the integrity of Proleague/GSL.
It's odd because I'd say the formats are very similar. I'd say GuMiho was running hot.
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On January 17 2013 11:09 DavoS wrote:
Remember Flash's up & Down matches? How he all killed EGTL in Proleague then didn't even make it to wildcards? He's the opposite end of the coin. Code S players don't want to show their builds in a BO1 match that won't bring them closer to a glorious Code S pin and whopping amount of money. Whereas Flash continues to dominate Proleague but not make it into Code S
Well, Flash has been 'slumping' after his EGTL AK in Proleague as well (granted, it is only 2 games). I think we just have to get used to the fact that players will have their ups and downs.
This even goes for teams. A lot of people were shocked that KT, SKT lost. But it is likely their 'level' was slightly less than their record suggests and the 'level' of the bottom teams were better than their record suggests.
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On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake.
Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
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In individual leagues usually you play best of X (where X >= 3), which makes standard play much stronger. In a Bo1 special prepared builds are much stronger. Especially for weaker/less well known players, you can tailor a build to expose the weaknesses of a more famous player when in a straight-up normal game you might have little to no chance.
Then there's also the maps which are (I think) more interesting and varied for Proleague, but not always condusive to becoming good at "standard play" on "macro maps" which are (again, in my opinion) better for "standard" games.
Often what happened in Broodwar is the best players would just play a little safer and accept that sometimes they would be a little behind at the start, an advantage they could normally overcome. Or they scouted really well (or in Flash's case just knew the other guys build/army location/current supply count/14 CCed anyway/typed in "black sheep wall") and took calculated risks based on the information they could or couldn't (just as important) get.
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On January 17 2013 11:08 winthrop wrote:
i find that the title leads to misunderstanding.
should change to 'why kespa's code s players xxxxxxx.........blablabla'
Do you think it's necessary?
Everyone knows Proleague is a league PL players only.
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On January 17 2013 11:54 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake. Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
That's why you can't just look at whether someone is in Code S one season and say "he's a Code S player, he should be dominating everything". You have to look at how they got there and how they performed over time, and their current form.
Sometimes players get lucky brackets, get opponents who are having a bad day, or the metagame favors their race etc and they make it into Code S. It doesn't mean they belong there, and those who don't fall after a couple of seasons.
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On January 17 2013 11:54 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake. Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players)
You can directly see the correlation between seed and results.
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On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
I disagree that Huk's group was the easiest but much of what you say is good logic. Many of those players are too new still to know how consistently they can reach their highs and how they do in other race matchups.
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The real question is why are the people who are doing well in proleague not in code S?
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The mentality is very different between PL and individual leagues. Team morale and sportsmanship plays a big role in a players performance.
In PL, players can feel more confident when they have their team behind him supporting him thus may perform better and grab wins off players easier. It can be said that you're trying to win for your team, not just yourself (higher motivation).
However, in individual leagues, you have less teammates around you or by yourself and therefore you must motivate yourself at that moment. Makes it hard if you're a player who is team-motivated rather than self-motivated.
Just picture yourself as a progamer. Waking up and going up by yourself to the train station to get to the place for your individual tournament and compare yourself waking up and going as a team to a venue to play. It must feel different for everyone. I personally would rather the feeling of going as a team to play a match.
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On January 17 2013 12:25 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 11:54 vthree wrote:On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake. Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time. Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results.
Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out.
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On January 17 2013 11:09 DavoS wrote:
Remember Flash's up & Down matches? How he all killed EGTL in Proleague then didn't even make it to wildcards? He's the opposite end of the coin. Code S players don't want to show their builds in a BO1 match that won't bring them closer to a glorious Code S pin and whopping amount of money. Whereas Flash continues to dominate Proleague but not make it into Code S
Flash not being in code S is purely due to a bit of bad luck and poor decisions on his part. If he holds the bust against JD or builds a bunker against MC we could very well be talking about him in code S right now.
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On January 17 2013 12:55 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 12:25 MrCon wrote:On January 17 2013 11:54 vthree wrote:On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote:
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake. Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time. Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results. Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out.
No, DRG qualified for Code A on his own, couldn't make it to Code S that season, showing that maybe he wasn't ready. He got seeded, dropped out in ro16, which allowed him to stay in Code S in the old system. Next season he dropped out in ro32, but this time made it back to Code S on his own. When he finally won Code S, he had proven that he deserved to be there, and since then he has proven it even further, by going past ro32 and making an OSL finals even during the deepest slump of his career.
Naniwa, on the other hand, got seeded in the season when Protoss was extremely dominant in the metagame and completely avoided his weakest matchup for 2 seasons in a row. As soon as that run was over, dropped out in first round of Code S, then completely out of GSL in 1st round of Code A.
Comparing Naniwa and DRG is the perfect example of the point I was trying to make.
MC is a different story. He was Code S for a long time before he was seeded, and for a long time after that. He's known to be good at winning, even when he isn't the best.
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Whatever the same reason was that players that have done well in PL didn't well in OSL/MSL. And vice versa
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Just about the BO1 argument. This is no argument.
Op ask "code S players".
So he talks about ALL games of code s players, not about "One best of 1".
Many BO1 are not BO1 any more 
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EPT
