ID win/lose ELOpts taeja 6-3 2054 soulkey 6-4 2032 stephano 2-2 1996 bogus 6-8 1970 TY 5-7 1967 roro 6-8 1964 huk 0-2 1964 None of them got in the proleague ELO ranking top 10.
In my opinion, code S is top level tourney,a player is one of the best32 in gsl,and his boss paid him for proleague, a league seems not as tough as code S,of cause he will be the bests in proleague. right? but TLPD told me something different,why?
Any logical reasoning about this?
edit:
Difference of map pool not the answer obviously. They paid for proleague win. Practicing mainly on proleague maps, not GSL. Practicing everyday almost for proleague, not for gsl, but can't win as more as on maps they didn't practicing so much. How did this happen?
And it's not a title comparing proleague players with ESF players.Just asking why some proleague players who got a code S badge in their spare time,harder to carry out works their Boss paid them for:win in proleague
Please read question again: it's not a thread about "foreigner vs. proleague"or "proleague vs. ESF".
This is "Proleague players" vs." Proleague players with code S badge",and the former did better work than the latter in proleague.
I think the most obvious off-the-cuff response you'll receive is the format differences and the incredibly difficult code A and up and downs (means that some of the best proleague players wont necessarily always make it to code S)
Comparing a Bo1 where you can at best guess and assume which opponent you will play to a BoX where you can prepare for the specific players feels just wrong. They are simply completely different formats.
The maps are reaaaaaally different, and while proleague only players can practice them, people playing in code S can't. Also ex broodwar players are obviously super good too, so..
cuz the maps are different. people bring up that previously they've had to practice for osl and/or msl along with pl, but those leagues had map overlap with PL. for a long time there was like 2(??) maps that overlapped between kespa and gom. also the kespa maps and gom maps play out very differently.
bogus and ty are kinda slumping right now (they played better a few weeks ago imo) huk isnt really code s, he just got there by some kind of strange power wanting to ve a bad player in code s, taeja sk and stephano doing okay i think, roro is just not that good
Proleague is a new format for the older SC2 players and it has new maps which gives fresh and sometimes surprising builds that can catch them off guard. The KeSPA teams also has relatively new players to SC2 so VODs are a bit rare while themselves can be studied in loads of content (although this might not really be an acceptable excuse any more).
I think it has to do with how much passion the separate teams has for PL and the chance of winning itself. And last but not least, a lot of KeSPA players such as Rain are clearly at Code S level or close to it. The difference in level is closing in each day.
Proleague has first of all a different system. The other reason is in this case the map pool, you don't prepare as hard on those maps if they aren't in CodeS. The more valuable tournament for most people. So Imo it is completely logical. And since Kespa and Esf have different priorities it will ever be that way. It is stuff for the eternal discussion of who is better. (well until parting will win all the kespa tournaments) But I think EG/TL will do better with more experience in this format. I mean there is always a homeground advantage in some tournaments. Also ewww Best of 1 so random ... just kidding ... but it annoyed me when it was mentioned after a kespa player lost in the up and downs.
Proleague level is still far behind, and the format is different, and ESF cant play proleague that they would dominate. Taeja is 6 2 and have wrist problem, kespa players are doing bad in GSL. Some kespa players are very good though.
Close this thread it's not reddit, and this is a wrong title.
1) Best of 1 2) Snipers 3) Maps 4) Proximity of the top level of competition 5) How well player does on the day
People always think 5 isn't a thing. Like a player's skill rises or falls as opposed to players just having a fantastic day vs a terrible day. I mean Yonghwa fails to get into Code A every day of his life and then proceeds to become WCG KR champion against far harder competition. Still a bracket tournament. Maps basically the same. He just did better on the given day.
Anyway, it's still notably early days of proleague. And the only Code S mainstay listed (Taeja) has been on a downturn. Injury related I believe. But still.
surely, the most important reason is they don't know who they are going to play... GSL gives players a week to practice a specific matchup vs a specific player who they can research?
Without this format it becomes a very difficult situation. Cheese becomes even more dangerous
On January 16 2013 22:17 Chloroplaste wrote: Proleague level is still far behind, and the format is different, and ESF cant play proleague that they would dominate. Taeja is 6 2 and have wrist problem, kespa players are doing bad in GSL. Some kespa players are very good though.
Close this thread it's not reddit, and this is a wrong title.
Any esf player in this title?
it's a title only about proleague and 7 proleague players who going to play in code S.
Another thing to consider is that for many of these young progamers, Proleague was the WTF AWESOME that made them BECOME pro gamers, and the BW legends they all looked up to play in it (Flash, etc).
If that doesn't give you nerves in the booth, can't imagine what would.
The game's volatile and it takes a while for there to be large changes in the makeup of code S. Huk and Nestea are in it atm and do/would get rocked in proleague.
On January 16 2013 22:23 malaan wrote: surely, the most important reason is they don't know who they are going to play... GSL gives players a week to practice a specific matchup vs a specific player who they can research?
Without this format it becomes a very difficult situation. Cheese becomes even more dangerous
proleague matchup and starters announced every Thursday,they have 2~4 days to prepare a match too.
Is the reason. You put the Code S guys vs KeSPA guys in BO3 format and you would get closer results. Stephano i doub't would of lost the games he did if he played in a BO3 format.
Everyone has good days and bad days. Some players vary more than others, but in general a tier X player having a good day will beat a tier x+1 player having a bad day.
On January 16 2013 22:51 Pandemona wrote: Best of One (1) vs Best of Three (3)
Is the reason. You put the Code S guys vs KeSPA guys in BO3 format and you would get closer results. Stephano i doub't would of lost the games he did if he played in a BO3 format.
Bo1 should increase the noise (a short-term deviation), but not the overall result compared to a Bo3 format.
On January 16 2013 22:43 hangarninetysix wrote: The most obvious reason: KeSPA players are on salary primarily for proleague - they don't spend nearly as much time preparing on GSL.
This.
It is simply a matter of different practice priorities. For all PL teams bar EZ-TL (sorry but their current standings somewhat warrant this) proleague is by far the most important tourney, and its not even close. If you have proleague games to prepare for vs. UP and DOWN hell with 5 bo1 vs all three races i think it is obvious what PL teams decide to focus on. Doesnt mean that they would absolutely crush all competition all competition with 100% effort dedicated to GSL, but by watching games you have to admit the average game level is at LEAST the same as code A, if not better. This is bound to happen with this kind of format where "high skill gap" match ups happen often yet majority of games are still somewhat close.
I mean Rain in Code B vs Huk in code S, go figure.
On January 16 2013 22:43 hangarninetysix wrote: The most obvious reason: KeSPA players are on salary primarily for proleague - they don't spend nearly as much time preparing on GSL.
This.
It is simply a matter of different practice priorities. For all PL teams bar EZ-TL (sorry but their current standings somewhat warrant this) proleague is by far the most important tourney, and its not even close. If you have proleague games to prepare for vs. UP and DOWN hell with 5 bo1 vs all three races i think it is obvious what PL teams decide to focus on. Doesnt mean that they would absolutely crush all competition all competition with 100% effort dedicated to GSL, but by watching games you have to admit the average game level is at LEAST the same as code A, if not better. This is bound to happen with this kind of format where "high skill gap" match ups happen often yet majority of games are still somewhat close.
I mean Rain in Code B vs Huk in code S, go figure.
'EZ-TL' is still ahead of 2 teams in overall rankings.
I find the question a bit missleading... Yep code S players are not in the top 10 elo of proleague, but does all the "top10 elo" code S player play in proleague : not really... It's not like if they all had really negative stats btw, worst is HuK and I'll be surprised if he manages to go through ro32...
After there is the map/training/kespaisjustsuperior explanation, but I think the "code S" players are doing pretty well...
people frequently underestimate how close in skill the pros really are. true for sc2 proleague and true for bw proleague -> osl/msl (or wcg korea too).
also bo1 is more volatile and map preparation/nerves; some players need a game or two to really get in their groove. sc2 has some more predominant racial imbalances as well.
but this was true to bw as well, where people go in streaks/slumps or sometimes do well in 1 but fail at the other.
You should note that Kespa teams and its players prioritize pl over any other individual leagues. Kespa players receive incentives from winning a match (As far as I know STX players get like $500 per win) on the top of their salary. Thats why they work their asses off to prepare for proleague.
It's all about the preparation . There is no huge skill difference between Proleague and GSL . Normally the player who has prepared better on the given map will win .
Code S isn't really the best measurement of skill . You can't tell if a player is doing well or is in a slump until he actually plays his games . If everyone started from the offline preliminaries i would bet that the whole Code - S would look completely different . I think some players get lucky + practise solely for the maps to get in to Code - S in that one series on that one day they play . After that they get crushed in the RO32 in Code S by an equally prepared superior player . After the RO32 you can see who the real Code S players are .
Proleague can tell you more how a player is doing overall , because he will play at least twice every week ( if he is any good) , and after a certain period of time , for example the end of round 3 before HOTS starts you can get an overall picture of who is exactly were in the rankings in WOL playing in Proleague .
There are always players who would be good at one format and be bad at the other . For example Sea was the epitome of this. Dominated Proleague for years , but in individual leagues he made Ro8 once or so in BW .
I think the biggest difference though are the maps if they were the same there would be no excuse why a player did bad , because they both practise equally on the same settings .
This isnt a unusual trend for KeSPA. There have been plenty of players who do great in proleague (Bisu) but used to fail in the OSL (Bisu). DRG I remember struggled for a bit to get into code S despite being a monster in the GSTL but of course he eventually broke thru and won a GSL.
Proleague is only bo1 and your sample size is super tiny small and you can't draw any conclusion out of it yet. Wait a year or two to gather more data.
Proleague players practice a map for a very long time. Code S players cant focus on both Code S opponents and KESPA maps, so they're bound to be less prepared for their games.
heres the simple explaination (well more detailed then "different format") the kespa players have been playing in the proleague format for years and have plently of practice at player sniping and map sniping in the Bo1 format, now the codeS players have been playing mostly individual tournaments for the past 2+ years. add in the fact that the difference between a codeS player and a codeA player (hell even some codeB players) is minimal at best (sometimes its just luck of the map/matchup draw in the up and downs) just my thoughts
On January 16 2013 23:39 TAMinator wrote: Proleague players practice a map for a very long time. Code S players cant focus on both Code S opponents and KESPA maps, so they're bound to be less prepared for their games.
But it's not a title comparing proleague players with ESF players.Just asking why some proleague players who got a code S badge in their spare time,harder to carry out works what Boss paid them for:win in proleague
On January 16 2013 23:39 TAMinator wrote: Proleague players practice a map for a very long time. Code S players cant focus on both Code S opponents and KESPA maps, so they're bound to be less prepared for their games.
But it's not a title comparing proleague players with ESF players.Just asking why some proleague players who got a code S badge in their spare time,harder to carry out works what Boss paid them for:win in proleague
Maybe they are sneaking extra time for individual leagues instead of Proleague , no real other explanation . Makes sence why they are doing worse in PL and better in individual leagues .
Let's not forget, there is soooooooooooooooo muccccccccccccchhhhh morrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre data out there on the guys who have been in the GSL for a long time. For $20/month, all of the KeSPA teams can get an extensive catalog of almost every professional game the ESF players have played, and lots of the players being used in Proleague have almost no exposure outside of those weird BO1 games that get played a couple of times per week.
On January 16 2013 23:57 McBrungus wrote: Let's not forget, there is soooooooooooooooo muccccccccccccchhhhh morrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre data out there on the guys who have been in the GSL for a long time. For $20/month, all of the KeSPA teams can get an extensive catalog of almost every professional game the ESF players have played, and lots of the players being used in Proleague have almost no exposure outside of those weird BO1 games that get played a couple of times per week.
Lol and for free you can get every pro league game since the players started lol
On January 16 2013 23:57 McBrungus wrote: Let's not forget, there is soooooooooooooooo muccccccccccccchhhhh morrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre data out there on the guys who have been in the GSL for a long time. For $20/month, all of the KeSPA teams can get an extensive catalog of almost every professional game the ESF players have played, and lots of the players being used in Proleague have almost no exposure outside of those weird BO1 games that get played a couple of times per week.
Lol and for free you can get every pro league game since the players started lol
Not to mention that you don't need to be a scientist to figure out that Flash would 14 CC or that JulyZerg would all - in . They have been doing this for years in BW as well . There is enough sample size for both cases to get an overall feel for a player .
Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges?
Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse.
Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match.
On January 17 2013 00:16 ElusoryX wrote: KeSPA teams study REALLY hard, so hard that they don't need better mechanics to win Mvp or whoever that's mechanically much stronger.
i am not a bw fanboy at all, but this post is quite stupid.
On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote: Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying
Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges?
Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse.
Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match.
They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges.
Bo1s and some arguably wacky maps make proleague not comparable with gsl. Also a teamleague sometimes works a bit different than solo leagues (players as snipers for certain ace players, or races)
On January 16 2013 22:22 bittman wrote: 1) Best of 1 2) Snipers 3) Maps 4) Proximity of the top level of competition 5) How well player does on the day
People always think 5 isn't a thing. Like a player's skill rises or falls as opposed to players just having a fantastic day vs a terrible day. I mean Yonghwa fails to get into Code A every day of his life and then proceeds to become WCG KR champion against far harder competition. Still a bracket tournament. Maps basically the same. He just did better on the given day.
Anyway, it's still notably early days of proleague. And the only Code S mainstay listed (Taeja) has been on a downturn. Injury related I believe. But still.
The sweet sound of a well thought out answer. Pretty much this. 4 and 5 being are points of great importance that sometimes people forget about.
I'd definitly see an link to the maps that are used in Proleague. Eventhough I like to see BW Maps in SCII tournaments the choices aren't quite....comprehensible. Arkanoid was already quite imbalanced in BW, and had an even worse start in SCII in my opinion. I like Neo Bifröst as far as conception goes, but it really doesn't fit the BO1 format, since it often times leads to chees fest and increases the variety to an insane amount.
Proleague was bo1 where you only play one opponent for a long time. You do not need to be the better player mechanics wise. If you have a really smart strategy that can surprise your opponent tailored to the map you are playing on, you take the game.
In GSL, you have to play multiple games against multiple opponents (up and down and code s), there you cannot do that.
On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote: Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying
Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges?
Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse.
Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match.
They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges.
Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about.
Did I take things out of context?
I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player.
I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them?
Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub?
Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues
Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament.
Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL?
The truly skilled players are able to adapt to playing one map vs each person, and getting sniped. Other specific korean players are skilled in preparing for one match. Two different skills, both important.
It is also interesting that the KeSPA players were so much better in the OSL than in the GSL.
One important reason why I don't think they care very much for GSL is that it seems to have no exposure in Korea. Everytime I see a KeSPA player in the Gom studio he has more fans than the eSF players. Why? PL and OSL are on national television. This should mean a lot to the sponsors and thus to the teams.
On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote: Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying
Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges?
Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse.
Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match.
They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges.
Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about.
I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player.
I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them?
Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub?
Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues
Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament.
Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL?
Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges.
bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation.
On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote: Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying
Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges?
Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse.
Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match.
They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges.
Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about.
Did I take things out of context?
I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player.
I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them?
Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub?
Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues
Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament.
Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL?
Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges.
bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation.
Thats way, way to simplistic. Bisu is also very much known for having the best PL record of all times.
As basically every logical person has said, they're completely different. To compare the two with literally not even a glance at formatting is just hilariously shit of the OP.
On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote: Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying
Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges?
Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse.
Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match.
They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges.
Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about.
Did I take things out of context?
I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player.
I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them?
Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub?
Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues
Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament.
Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL?
Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges.
bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation.
Thats way, way to simplistic. Bisu is also very much known for having the best PL record of all times.
Liquid Sea? He has one of the greatest records in proleague, didnt find so much success in individual leagues. Are you going to list him along with TBLS because he was a great proleague player? I doubt it ^^
In sc2 the best player will not always win. a really good player will have a 60% chance to win vs a mediocre player. That meens the mediocre player can still 3-0 the really good player.
ProLeague is always going to have more upsets than GSL. Simply because if you lose a BO1 in ProLeague you are out. It is obviously easier for a lesser player to beat a better player over a Bo1 than a Bo3 and so upsets happen more frequently in a Bo1.
Similarly a Bo5 will have less upsets than a Bo3.
For an analogy with another sport, I could probably win a point of Tennis against Federer but I would not win a Set.
On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote: Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying
Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges?
Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse.
Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match.
They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges.
Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about.
Did I take things out of context?
I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player.
I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them?
Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub?
Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues
Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament.
Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL?
Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges.
bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation.
Thats way, way to simplistic. Bisu is also very much known for having the best PL record of all times.
Liquid Sea? He has one of the greatest records in proleague, didnt find so much success in individual leagues. Are you going to list him along with TBLS because he was a great proleague player? I doubt it ^^
You are only pushing you agenda here. Sea was a very strong player. Some seasons he was exceptional in PL. But he never had any real success in individual leagues and he was most of the time only a strong player in PL, not unlike Light, Firebathero or Midas etc.
My point is that both count, no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either way.
In my view the argument that different formats and maps are causing these diversing results is way overrated in this thread. The most important reason is the volatility and the 'relative' skill cap of the game which leads to an insanely tight level of competition between the top pro's. This way it is very very hard to set yourself far ahead of the others skillwise, especially in comparision to BW.
I honestly think that the biggest factor is that code S players have vods out there which can be studied by kespa players. Especially in a BO1 format, they get sniped or hard countered a hell lot more.
On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote: Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying
Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges?
Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse.
Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match.
They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges.
Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about.
Did I take things out of context?
I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player.
I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them?
Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub?
Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues
Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament.
Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL?
Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges.
bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation.
Thats way, way to simplistic. Bisu is also very much known for having the best PL record of all times.
Liquid Sea? He has one of the greatest records in proleague, didnt find so much success in individual leagues. Are you going to list him along with TBLS because he was a great proleague player? I doubt it ^^
You are only pushing you agenda here. Sea was a very strong player. Some seasons he was exceptional in PL. But he never had any real success in individual leagues and he was most of the time only a strong player in PL, not unlike Light, Firebathero or Midas etc.
My point is that both count, no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either way.
You made a very good point there genius, Sea never had any real success in individual leagues hence he is not remembered as one of the best players. I'll give you the list of best progamers of all time: iloov, Savior, Flash, Reach Jaedong, bisu, Stork, Nada, Boxer, July. Not single one of them would be remembered as one of the best if they hadnt had any success in individual leagues. Youre not gonna say Gumiho>>>>Mvp because Gumiho's team league results is better are you? lol
On January 16 2013 22:05 FeyFey wrote: Proleague has first of all a different system. The other reason is in this case the map pool, you don't prepare as hard on those maps if they aren't in CodeS. The more valuable tournament for most people. So Imo it is completely logical. And since Kespa and Esf have different priorities it will ever be that way. It is stuff for the eternal discussion of who is better. (well until parting will win all the kespa tournaments) But I think EG/TL will do better with more experience in this format. I mean there is always a homeground advantage in some tournaments. Also ewww Best of 1 so random ... just kidding ... but it annoyed me when it was mentioned after a kespa player lost in the up and downs.
other way around, proleague is always number one priority for kespa players
On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote: Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying
Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges?
Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse.
Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match.
They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges.
Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about.
Did I take things out of context?
I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player.
I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them?
Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub?
Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues
Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament.
Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL?
Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges.
bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation.
I'm saying that Bisu is NOT a scrub. Just because he didn't win an OSL does not make him a scrub. Just because flashed failed to get into Code S does not make him a scrub. And just because Taeja isn't doing well in PL does not make him a scrub.
Everybody knows Taeja is doing worse than he should due to injury.
HuK just fought his way into Code S this season through up & down invite.
Two of the Code S players you name haven't even had a single match. (Back when HuK played Code S the game was so far away from being the Starcraft 2 we know now I think it does not count)
Can't really comment on the rest but I would rather be surprised if one of them were in the top 10....
Taeja did quite well but is badly injured, which might be more impressive than some of the better runs in Proleague this season.
Soulkey and Bogus are just playing badly after their good run last Code S season, same goes for Roro to some extent. Stephano is doing decently well but gets sniped every time by a Zerg.
Baby was always inconsistent but had a good run in Code A, it happens. HuK got through Up&Downs but is not necessarily Code S level.
Not one of the Code S players who are currently the best is playing in Proleague, that's just how it is.
Add maps/BO1 randomness/snipers and people having bad days into that and you have your reasons.
Wow, tbh, those ELO calculations penalize WAY too heavily for losses... ace players for their teams like roro and bogus (although jangbi might be stepping up in roro's spot, we'll see) have less points than BISU.... just because their W-L differential is worse. 6-8 is obviously a way better record than 1-2...
I wouldn't say that code S players "aren't doing well in proleague" based off of those flawed rankings
I feel that so many players are pretty much equal skill level wise. Also in GSL you got a lot time to prepare for your opponent while in pl you have not that kind of opportunity. Also new maps might make slight differece
On January 17 2013 00:18 Thieving Magpie wrote: Kespa can't even win an MLG, just saying
Oh? Did I take things out of context? Compared apples to oranges?
Two different tournaments, two different results. MVP and Nestea never did that well in GSTL and they only really played during their early reign--they don't do that we'll in team league. JYP? He barely holds on to the middling sections of a tournament, never the favorite. Put him in team league and suddenly he's a consistent work horse.
Nerves are much less of an issue unless you're at the ace match.
They are all apples. All of them. No one comparing kespa players and ESF players but you.This is a thread about PROLEAGUE PLAYERS with/without code S badges.
Because you got confused, I will quote myself to show you what I was talking about.
Did I take things out of context?
I said Kespa players can't win an MLG and so that must be a good measurement of their skill--except it isn't because not doing well in one tournament doesn't make you a terrible player.
I said MVP and Nestea does worse in Team Leagues than JYP, does that make JYP a better player than them?
Bisu never won an OSL--does that mean he's a scrub?
Team Leagues =/= Individual Leagues
Performance in one tournament does not dictate your performance in another tournament.
Rain won an OSL at the same time period as failing to win an MLG--does that mean MLG is harder than OSL?
Apples and Oranges my friend, Apples and Oranges.
bisu won 3 msl. Why do u think he is called a revolutionist? Because he is the one who 3-0d fucking Bonjwa at the time, Savior. Individual league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>proleague when it comes to player evaluation.
Thats way, way to simplistic. Bisu is also very much known for having the best PL record of all times.
Liquid Sea? He has one of the greatest records in proleague, didnt find so much success in individual leagues. Are you going to list him along with TBLS because he was a great proleague player? I doubt it ^^
You are only pushing you agenda here. Sea was a very strong player. Some seasons he was exceptional in PL. But he never had any real success in individual leagues and he was most of the time only a strong player in PL, not unlike Light, Firebathero or Midas etc.
My point is that both count, no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either way.
You made a very good point there genius, Sea never had any real success in individual leagues hence he is not remembered as one of the best players. I'll give you the list of best progamers of all time: iloov, Savior, Flash, Reach Jaedong, bisu, Stork, Nada, Boxer, July. Not single one of them would be remembered as one of the best if they hadnt had any success in individual leagues. Youre not gonna say Gumiho>>>>Mvp because Gumiho's team league results is better are you? lol
My point was that both matter. Do you think it is a coincidence that almost all of those players have won Proleague?
I wouldn't say that Gumiho > MVP because I have more or less never seen any of them play.
Lets just give the honest answer - SC2 is a volatile game and there's really not much difference between the top players. This is also why we haven't had, and will never have, anything close to a bonjwa in SC2.
ID win/lose ELOpts taeja 6-3 2054 soulkey 6-4 2032 stephano 2-2 1996 bogus 6-8 1970 TY 5-7 1967 roro 6-8 1964 huk 0-2 1964 None of them got in the proleague ELO ranking top 10.
In my opinion, code S is top level tourney,a player is one of the best32 in gsl,and his boss paid him for proleague, a league seems not as tough as code S,of cause he will be the bests in proleague. right? but TLPD told me something different,why?
Any logical reasoning about this?
edit:
Difference of map pool not the answer obviously. They paid for proleague win. Practicing mainly on proleague maps, not GSL. Practicing everyday almost for proleague, not for gsl, but can't win as more as on maps they didn't practicing so much. How did this happen?
And it's not a title comparing proleague players with ESF players.Just asking why some proleague players who got a code S badge in their spare time,harder to carry out works their Boss paid them for:win in proleague
As long as they have a .500 batting average then I see nothing wrong with their performance. HuK's not worth mentioning and as for the rest. They're doing just fine.
This is like asking why ST and/or IM hasn't won GSTL(for a long time)..... Individual league is different to team league... there's no complicated science.
In addition to the points already made, I'd like to point out that the availability of replays is likely a big deal. There are a multitude of replays out there to study for players in Code S, while the same can't be said for the players in PL. If someone wants to study a Code S mainstay, it's easy. If someone wants to study their opponent in PL, there's nowhere near as much material to look at.
in order for true proleague skill to be determined, I believe
1) you must remove mirror match losses from the stastistics
2) you must remove games on arkanoid from the stastistics
i know many will disagree with me on the mirror match point, but my argument is that I truly feel mirror matches are highly different from non-mirror matches
stephano has incredible skill in non-mirror matches. but his zvz is pretty abysmal
Now, if a player can be like flash with great non-mirror matches and a awesome TvT, then that is amazing and incredible
however IMO I feel if you follow my 2 rules, many of the code S players will show to have very good skill showings in proleague
i guess my argument is, that mirror matchups are a completely different animal compared to non-mirrors
It's simple really. GSL players are not used to Bisu's presence, and are thus too distracted to play as well as they can. Why do you think Bisu has been sitting on the bench? Because he's not as good in sc2? Wrong. Being a pretty distraction yo.
On January 16 2013 22:39 Scarecrow wrote: The game's volatile and it takes a while for there to be large changes in the makeup of code S. Huk and Nestea are in it atm and do/would get rocked in proleague.
Yeah + I like to mention that in the OSL, it was basically split in half.
In each group, one eSF and one KeSPA player were knocked out, with one from each advancing.
This doesn't really say much besides KeSPA and eSF are fairly on equal footing.
In terms of the GSL, it's always been hard to get into Code S from Code B/Code A.
Both Flash and Jaedong really narrowingly lost.
In the first part of up and down, they both lost via 3-2 scores.
Flash defeat Yoda (which defeated everyone else) but lost to Jaedong (who lost to MC) and MC.
Jaedong defeated Flash but lost to MC and Yoda.
MC defeated Flash, Jaedong but lost to Vampire (who flash defeated) and lost to Yoda (who Flash also defeated).
It was 3-2 everyone but since MC won via head to head vs Flash and Jaedong, he advanced.
(I know head to head is used in a lot of formats but it doesn't mean <x> player is better than <y> player. I mean, if you see the above, Flash defeated two players who defeated MC but lost MC and Jaedong.)
(Also, I didn't mention YongHwa because everyone defeated him. Yep, Artosis curse real and alive.)
In wild card, Jaedong yet again lost because of tieing 2-2 score with two others.
On January 17 2013 06:27 bankobauss wrote: in order for true proleague skill to be determined, I believe
1) you must remove mirror match losses from the stastistics
2) you must remove games on arkanoid from the stastistics
i know many will disagree with me on the mirror match point, but my argument is that I truly feel mirror matches are highly different from non-mirror matches
stephano has incredible skill in non-mirror matches. but his zvz is pretty abysmal
Now, if a player can be like flash with great non-mirror matches and a awesome TvT, then that is amazing and incredible
however IMO I feel if you follow my 2 rules, many of the code S players will show to have very good skill showings in proleague
i guess my argument is, that mirror matchups are a completely different animal compared to non-mirrors
If you have a crappy match-up you have a crappy match-up. Everything counts.
On January 17 2013 04:10 RanDomFox wrote: code s > GSTL > proleague. if they really cared about proleague, theyd do better.
Code S > Major foeriegn tournaments > Proleague > GSTL
Fixed
That's all opinion. Ultimately you would have to ask each player because I assure you they would give you different answers as to what's important to them.
Those records don't indicate that they're doing poorly at all. SPL is a totally different environment, where a player with more overall skill can be sniped by a particularly well-prepared build from a lesser player any night of the week. Players with exceptionally high win rates will always be exceedingly rare.
proleague success and individual league success aren't always correlated anyways
look at PL beasts like leta, sea, snow, horang, light, soulkey, bisu, stats, violet, shuttle, bogus
these guys all had really strong 2010-2012 proleague performances but never made it past like ro16 of OSL/MSL, or if they're bisu, can't even make it out of prelims
This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
I think here people are missing an important point; Code S players have more to worry about than Proleague. How well is taija going to prepare for Arkanoid? Not well; He has to prepare for his Code S matches. Those that aren't in anything but Proleague can prepare the matches and matchups they are going to see that week, with their whole energy. Serious players from other leagues are torn in many many directions.
I think it's also important to note that there just isn't that much Proleague data yet - it's not been long enough yet. Those strong players not currently in code S will probably make it there, and code S players will find their feet in Proleague in the long run.
best of 1 + new map pool + small number of Code S players who play in pro league. Code S, with its longer game format and established maps gives you a better gauge of skill for now.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes context is everything. I wish people would stop jumping the gun.
Remember Flash's up & Down matches? How he all killed EGTL in Proleague then didn't even make it to wildcards? He's the opposite end of the coin. Code S players don't want to show their builds in a BO1 match that won't bring them closer to a glorious Code S pin and whopping amount of money. Whereas Flash continues to dominate Proleague but not make it into Code S
1) Map - can see clearly from EG-TL players - big big issue I think, Kespa players have been playing and practising on those map for years
2) Priority - think code S players no doubt would focus more on Code S, practising less for pro-league (just by comparsion to Kespa players who pretty much 100% focus on proleague ) , not revealing their "secret" strategy in pro-leageu
3) Coach Decision - not putting up they best player in the matchup or snipe situation would no doubt reduce win-rate
GuMiho - average GSL player, almost single handedly won two GSTL finals.
Different players do better in different formats, while it is an interesting observation I don't think it actually reflects anything on a skill difference or the integrity of Proleague/GSL.
On January 17 2013 11:09 DavoS wrote: Remember Flash's up & Down matches? How he all killed EGTL in Proleague then didn't even make it to wildcards? He's the opposite end of the coin. Code S players don't want to show their builds in a BO1 match that won't bring them closer to a glorious Code S pin and whopping amount of money. Whereas Flash continues to dominate Proleague but not make it into Code S
Huh? Flash is pretty consistent in what he does when it comes to his game plan regardless. He's sort of asking you to do your darndest to stop him from doing what he's about to do. As for Flash's all-kill on TL and EG players. Sometimes you need a little lady luck on your side. That's not to say he didn't play great because he did and he forced his opponent's hand. In today's game it's very easy to get some reads on what your opponents are going to do so I rather avoid the showing & telling of builds because you always want to be scouting your opponent regardless. In PL cheese or early game tactics don't always work out (in fact they rarely do), so they go with plan B. Yes, JD resting was a tactical move. No question. When we compare the Up & Downs to PL though? It always comes down to one game at a time for both. In other words, they're very similar when you take out the money value. One game at a time because one game can cost you either way.
On January 17 2013 11:20 Ruscour wrote: GuMiho - average GSL player, almost single handedly won two GSTL finals.
Different players do better in different formats, while it is an interesting observation I don't think it actually reflects anything on a skill difference or the integrity of Proleague/GSL.
It's odd because I'd say the formats are very similar. I'd say GuMiho was running hot.
On January 17 2013 11:09 DavoS wrote: Remember Flash's up & Down matches? How he all killed EGTL in Proleague then didn't even make it to wildcards? He's the opposite end of the coin. Code S players don't want to show their builds in a BO1 match that won't bring them closer to a glorious Code S pin and whopping amount of money. Whereas Flash continues to dominate Proleague but not make it into Code S
Well, Flash has been 'slumping' after his EGTL AK in Proleague as well (granted, it is only 2 games). I think we just have to get used to the fact that players will have their ups and downs.
This even goes for teams. A lot of people were shocked that KT, SKT lost. But it is likely their 'level' was slightly less than their record suggests and the 'level' of the bottom teams were better than their record suggests.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake.
Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
In individual leagues usually you play best of X (where X >= 3), which makes standard play much stronger. In a Bo1 special prepared builds are much stronger. Especially for weaker/less well known players, you can tailor a build to expose the weaknesses of a more famous player when in a straight-up normal game you might have little to no chance.
Then there's also the maps which are (I think) more interesting and varied for Proleague, but not always condusive to becoming good at "standard play" on "macro maps" which are (again, in my opinion) better for "standard" games.
Often what happened in Broodwar is the best players would just play a little safer and accept that sometimes they would be a little behind at the start, an advantage they could normally overcome. Or they scouted really well (or in Flash's case just knew the other guys build/army location/current supply count/14 CCed anyway/typed in "black sheep wall") and took calculated risks based on the information they could or couldn't (just as important) get.
On January 17 2013 11:08 winthrop wrote: i find that the title leads to misunderstanding. should change to 'why kespa's code s players xxxxxxx.........blablabla'
Do you think it's necessary?
Everyone knows Proleague is a league PL players only.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake.
Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
That's why you can't just look at whether someone is in Code S one season and say "he's a Code S player, he should be dominating everything". You have to look at how they got there and how they performed over time, and their current form.
Sometimes players get lucky brackets, get opponents who are having a bad day, or the metagame favors their race etc and they make it into Code S. It doesn't mean they belong there, and those who don't fall after a couple of seasons.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake.
Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
I disagree that Huk's group was the easiest but much of what you say is good logic. Many of those players are too new still to know how consistently they can reach their highs and how they do in other race matchups.
The mentality is very different between PL and individual leagues. Team morale and sportsmanship plays a big role in a players performance.
In PL, players can feel more confident when they have their team behind him supporting him thus may perform better and grab wins off players easier. It can be said that you're trying to win for your team, not just yourself (higher motivation).
However, in individual leagues, you have less teammates around you or by yourself and therefore you must motivate yourself at that moment. Makes it hard if you're a player who is team-motivated rather than self-motivated.
Just picture yourself as a progamer. Waking up and going up by yourself to the train station to get to the place for your individual tournament and compare yourself waking up and going as a team to a venue to play. It must feel different for everyone. I personally would rather the feeling of going as a team to play a match.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake.
Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results.
Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out.
On January 17 2013 11:09 DavoS wrote: Remember Flash's up & Down matches? How he all killed EGTL in Proleague then didn't even make it to wildcards? He's the opposite end of the coin. Code S players don't want to show their builds in a BO1 match that won't bring them closer to a glorious Code S pin and whopping amount of money. Whereas Flash continues to dominate Proleague but not make it into Code S
Flash not being in code S is purely due to a bit of bad luck and poor decisions on his part. If he holds the bust against JD or builds a bunker against MC we could very well be talking about him in code S right now.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake.
Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results.
Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out.
No, DRG qualified for Code A on his own, couldn't make it to Code S that season, showing that maybe he wasn't ready. He got seeded, dropped out in ro16, which allowed him to stay in Code S in the old system. Next season he dropped out in ro32, but this time made it back to Code S on his own. When he finally won Code S, he had proven that he deserved to be there, and since then he has proven it even further, by going past ro32 and making an OSL finals even during the deepest slump of his career.
Naniwa, on the other hand, got seeded in the season when Protoss was extremely dominant in the metagame and completely avoided his weakest matchup for 2 seasons in a row. As soon as that run was over, dropped out in first round of Code S, then completely out of GSL in 1st round of Code A.
Comparing Naniwa and DRG is the perfect example of the point I was trying to make.
MC is a different story. He was Code S for a long time before he was seeded, and for a long time after that. He's known to be good at winning, even when he isn't the best.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake.
Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results.
Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out.
that's a long time ago and they have been consitent in gsl code S
I think the format is really different is why. In GSL, they are used to being given time to prepare for a specific MU for a set of maps so they can fully focus on that one MU where in proleague, it can be any MU that they play which includes their weakest. That and maybe they aren't taking proleague as seriously as the KeSPA players which is a mistake imo.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake.
Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results.
Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out.
No, DRG qualified for Code A on his own, couldn't make it to Code S that season, showing that maybe he wasn't ready. He got seeded, dropped out in ro16, which allowed him to stay in Code S in the old system. Next season he dropped out in ro32, but this time made it back to Code S on his own. When he finally won Code S, he had proven that he deserved to be there, and since then he has proven it even further, by going past ro32 and making an OSL finals even during the deepest slump of his career.
Naniwa, on the other hand, got seeded in the season when Protoss was extremely dominant in the metagame and completely avoided his weakest matchup for 2 seasons in a row. As soon as that run was over, dropped out in first round of Code S, then completely out of GSL in 1st round of Code A.
Comparing Naniwa and DRG is the perfect example of the point I was trying to make.
MC is a different story. He was Code S for a long time before he was seeded, and for a long time after that. He's known to be good at winning, even when he isn't the best.
I have to agree with sitromit on this one,although I think there are more factors to consider. Like physical environment, tournament format and the players themselves.
LG-IMMvp is a great all-round player, but he's definitely better at prep; MarineKing is definitely better than off the fly play. Playing a BO1 is different than playing an extended series. Playing from the open bracket all the way to the winners bracket is different in 3 days is definitely more taxing than playing a BO7 that you had adequate time to prepare. Proleague is a BO1. Kespa players don't seem to have as much stamina or as many builds as eSF players. The damn air conditioning is different. You get where I'm coming from.
Also as sitromit pointed out, there's not enough time for a longitudinal study on Kespa players in SC2. We can draw arcs and timelines for players who've been around for more than two years, but we can't make accurate assumptions about players who've not been there - Code S - (Stephano) or who've not been in Code S for a long time (Kespa players).
You can start to correlate this trend though, by comparing them to championships. The age of the three kings are over for GSL (Nestea, MC, Mvp). The last dominant player I remember is DRG (but he's won one gsl?).
I think some players benefit from preparation more and some are just talented at all aspects of the game and can think on their feet really well. The different formats make different players shine, and then you will have players who come along and do well all the time.
The format of MLG has more in common with pro league, than GSL does. You never know who your gonna face next.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake.
Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results.
Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out.
that's a long time ago and they have been consitent in gsl code S
Doesn't matter. It just shows being seeded does not necessary mean you will do bad. So there is no correlation between seed and results. Some seeds bomb out and never make it back. Some seeds use that chance and become Code S main stays. It all depends on the player's performance afterwards.
On January 17 2013 16:03 Reborn8u wrote: I think some players benefit from preparation more and some are just talented at all aspects of the game and can think on their feet really well. The different formats make different players shine, and then you will have players who come along and do well all the time.
The format of MLG has more in common with pro league, than GSL does. You never know who your gonna face next.
Actually, it depends on which round. AK round is 'closer' to MLG format (except for starting match). The 'normal' rounds are similar to Code S. Actually, the normal rounds is even more preparation based (except ACE) since it is 1 opponent, 1 map.
On January 17 2013 10:25 sitromit wrote: This is a silly thread. Code S is not an absolute. When people use words like "Code S level play" etc, they don't necessarily mean anyone who ever made it into Code S, but rather the high level of play we see from players who stay there consistently.
Let's look at the 7 players, and analyze how they got to Code S, and what their current status is:
Taeja: The best of the bunch, has been in Code S the longest of all of them, despite dealing with some wrist issues recently, not surprisingly, he has the best record of all
Soulkey: Got seeded into Code S, managed to come out of the loser's match in both ro32 and ro16, got past ro16 on the strength of his ZvZ alone, otherwise probably wouldn't have, promptly got eliminated at ro8 when he had to ZvT. I predict he will fall down to Code A this season.
Stephano: Got seeded, has yet to show that he belongs there.
Bogus: Another player who's very new to Code S. Had a good streak last season after getting man-handled by Leenock, a Code S veteran, but lost 3-1 in the semis to Hyun, and has been losing a lot of games ever since. Interestingly, he got past ro8 by beating Soulkey, whose Code S worthiness itself is in question.
Baby: Got seeded into Code S, finished last in his group, dropped to Code A. In Code A, beat a newcomer playing his first televised match in Code A, then beat Flash, another KesPA player, then played Symbol, who was having such a bad day that he even forgot to build his spawning pool in one of their games. That's how he got back into Code S.
Roro: Another new player in Code S, got knocked out in the first round last season. Requalified by beating Fantasy, another KeSPA player. He seems very inconsistent, I don't expect him to make it far this season either.
Huk: Got seeded into the up and downs into what everyone called the easiest group, with 2 KesPA players one of which was on a losing streak. He qualified by beating the 2 KeSPA players, and a Code A rookie. Everyone expects him to make an early exit from Code S.
So, as you see, context is everything.
Yes, but I think you are being quite bias here. Honestly, you can make a case for 70% of the players in Code S being 'lucky' in that they only got to play certain match ups or their opponents made a big mistake.
Hell, you can do that for Code S champs. Seed got lucky that Symbol played badly after being up 2-0. Mvp got lucky that Squirtle got his stalkers caught after defending the 11/11. Life got lucky that Mvp clumped his vikings in 2 of their games. Sniper was lucky has GSL was short and semi/finals were at IPL so players had less prep time.
Hes right tho, most people in OP aren't real code S players, they're seeded code S players. (we could say they're artificial code S players) You can directly see the correlation between seed and results.
Really? DRG was a 'seeded' player and he won a GSL. MC was a 'seeded' player and he got into finals of season 3. Naniwa went to 2 Ro8s after being seeded. MMA was seeded in 2011. I think people just only remember the times when seeded players bombed out. But players that went from Code B to Code A to Code S can also bomb out.
No, DRG qualified for Code A on his own, couldn't make it to Code S that season, showing that maybe he wasn't ready. He got seeded, dropped out in ro16, which allowed him to stay in Code S in the old system. Next season he dropped out in ro32, but this time made it back to Code S on his own. When he finally won Code S, he had proven that he deserved to be there, and since then he has proven it even further, by going past ro32 and making an OSL finals even during the deepest slump of his career.
Naniwa, on the other hand, got seeded in the season when Protoss was extremely dominant in the metagame and completely avoided his weakest matchup for 2 seasons in a row. As soon as that run was over, dropped out in first round of Code S, then completely out of GSL in 1st round of Code A.
Comparing Naniwa and DRG is the perfect example of the point I was trying to make.
MC is a different story. He was Code S for a long time before he was seeded, and for a long time after that. He's known to be good at winning, even when he isn't the best.
I have to agree with sitromit on this one,although I think there are more factors to consider. Like physical environment, tournament format and the players themselves.
LG-IMMvp is a great all-round player, but he's definitely better at prep; MarineKing is definitely better than off the fly play. Playing a BO1 is different than playing an extended series. Playing from the open bracket all the way to the winners bracket is different in 3 days is definitely more taxing than playing a BO7 that you had adequate time to prepare. Proleague is a BO1. Kespa players don't seem to have as much stamina or as many builds as eSF players. The damn air conditioning is different. You get where I'm coming from.
Also as sitromit pointed out, there's not enough time for a longitudinal study on Kespa players in SC2. We can draw arcs and timelines for players who've been around for more than two years, but we can't make accurate assumptions about players who've not been there - Code S - (Stephano) or who've not been in Code S for a long time (Kespa players).
You can start to correlate this trend though, by comparing them to championships. The age of the three kings are over for GSL (Nestea, MC, Mvp). The last dominant player I remember is DRG (but he's won one gsl?).
Well, the seasons are much lengthier as well. So you have to be dominant for like 4 months to have multiple GSLs as oppose to dominant for 2 months in 2011. And I would say LIfe is pretty dominant currently (Season 4 winner, Bliz Cup).
Frankly, losing a Bo1 is a lot less meaningful then losing a Bo3/5/7, especially because those Code S players probably focus more time on Code S, since--especially in all-kill format--it's a bit easier to prep for Code S.
Actually, it looks like a standard case of "too small a sample". When you look at how win/loss ratio, PL points and ELO are distributed among codeS and non-codeS players, it doesn't look like there's going to be any difference between the groups in the long run (with a bigger sample):
On January 17 2013 11:20 Ruscour wrote: GuMiho - average GSL player, almost single handedly won two GSTL finals.
Different players do better in different formats, while it is an interesting observation I don't think it actually reflects anything on a skill difference or the integrity of Proleague/GSL.
This. GuMiho is basically living proof of the difference between tournaments. Different people do well in different formats and take time to replicate their form from one format to another, some never manage it. Take IM. They've got EIGHT Code S titles on that team. Plus three second place finishes and three semi-finalist finishes. Yet only one GSTL title.
Hell, look at HyuN. That guy absolutely demolished literally all comers in IPL Fight Club for more than three months straight taking out solid players from all three races such as Squirtle, ByuN and the Code S champion Life. He was absolutely terrifying in online competitions.
His GSL record for 2012? Code A RO48, DNQ, Code A RO24, Code A RO24. It wasn't until the very end of the year where he was finally able to replicate his online success in the GSL with a Code S 2nd place.
i miss the times that you had real names that where always good, now it.s like in sc2 players are good for 2 months and then somebody else skillwise take there place already.... is the factor luck so big or something? I didnt remember this was also in sc1
On January 17 2013 21:14 Senshin wrote: i miss the times that you had real names that where always good, now it.s like in sc2 players are good for 2 months and then somebody else skillwise take there place already.... is the factor luck so big or something? I didnt remember this was also in sc1
The luck factor is much bigger in SC2.
In BW, the best player in the world might be an 80-90% favorite against quality competition. Long winning streaks are more likely to happen, and the best players consistently went far in tournaments.
In SC2, the best player is much less of a favorite. It reminds me of poker, if you're all in with top pair against a flush draw... sure you'll win more often than others, but you won't win all the time.
If you see MVP or Life or Parting in a tournament... it really isn't a surprise at all if they lose a game vs a second-rate or third-rate player. It just happens all the time. And with some bad luck or an unexpected allin, they might even lose 2-1 to a weaker player.
It's just the way that SC2 is designed... it rewards crazy high APM less, it rewards micro less... it's more about strategy vs strategy, and the design of the game just allows any decent pro to reach the finals of a tournament if he's playing well and getting lucky with build choices.
IMHO the GSL players are the best in the world, because a format that has best-of-3 and best-of-5 matches allows for skilled players to win more often and lucky players to have their luck run out. In single-game Proleague, any pro player can win one game, and the results will be unpredictable.
If its all about micro then why were the two most micro dependent matchups (pvp and zvz) the ones people hated the most early on in SC2? Early sc2 was all about aggression, fast perfect micro, where getting out just 1-2 collosus was considered game over. It was the fanbase who asked SC2 to be moved away from that. With enough nerfs the aggression stopped and the turtling began.
The maps are different for one. Arkanoid is one such extreme example that renders certain play-styles ineffective. Also, the Kespa players are largely unknown seeing as how it's the first few months since they made their transition into Sc2. The kespa players typically play with a different style or meta, combine that with the lack of concrete knowledge in terms of what each player's play style is like, it's difficult to prepare against them and mind-games will not work as well either. A good example of this MKP, everyone knows he's an aggressive and greedy player. At some point after his MLG wins, people figured that out and started using that against him. It's also fair to say proleague puts a different kind of pressure since they were essentially playing against legends that were known in bw to have have good decision making and often possess good strategic mind.
Let's not forget the worst part of proleague, which is the BO1 format. That adds a random factor of luck where if you somehow blind counter or pull off an all in, the player doing so will win. There's obviously no rematch which makes it difficult even if players like Taeja is obviously mechanically superior and has better decision making/control over his opponents.
On January 17 2013 11:20 Ruscour wrote: GuMiho - average GSL player, almost single handedly won two GSTL finals.
Different players do better in different formats, while it is an interesting observation I don't think it actually reflects anything on a skill difference or the integrity of Proleague/GSL.
This. GuMiho is basically living proof of the difference between tournaments. Different people do well in different formats and take time to replicate their form from one format to another, some never manage it. Take IM. They've got EIGHT Code S titles on that team. Plus three second place finishes and three semi-finalist finishes. Yet only one GSTL title.
Hell, look at HyuN. That guy absolutely demolished literally all comers in IPL Fight Club for more than three months straight taking out solid players from all three races such as Squirtle, ByuN and the Code S champion Life. He was absolutely terrifying in online competitions.
His GSL record for 2012? Code A RO48, DNQ, Code A RO24, Code A RO24. It wasn't until the very end of the year where he was finally able to replicate his online success in the GSL with a Code S 2nd place.
But when we are talking about who is more accomplished it always goes to those who do well in individual leagues.
On January 17 2013 21:14 Senshin wrote: i miss the times that you had real names that where always good, now it.s like in sc2 players are good for 2 months and then somebody else skillwise take there place already.... is the factor luck so big or something? I didnt remember this was also in sc1
Did you miss 2011 and the reign of Mvp, Nestea and (a little less) MC?
On January 17 2013 11:20 Ruscour wrote: GuMiho - average GSL player, almost single handedly won two GSTL finals.
Different players do better in different formats, while it is an interesting observation I don't think it actually reflects anything on a skill difference or the integrity of Proleague/GSL.
This. GuMiho is basically living proof of the difference between tournaments. Different people do well in different formats and take time to replicate their form from one format to another, some never manage it. Take IM. They've got EIGHT Code S titles on that team. Plus three second place finishes and three semi-finalist finishes. Yet only one GSTL title.
Hell, look at HyuN. That guy absolutely demolished literally all comers in IPL Fight Club for more than three months straight taking out solid players from all three races such as Squirtle, ByuN and the Code S champion Life. He was absolutely terrifying in online competitions.
His GSL record for 2012? Code A RO48, DNQ, Code A RO24, Code A RO24. It wasn't until the very end of the year where he was finally able to replicate his online success in the GSL with a Code S 2nd place.
But when we are talking about who is more accomplished it always goes to those who do well in individual leagues.
Thats....not really relevant to my post or this thread.
The question was "why are Code S level players not doing as well in Proleague". The fact that individual leagues are generally used to define who is more accomplished has nothing to do with that question at all.
I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
Yeah i miss the real names in sc2 too 3 or 6 months are nothing. Mvp won 5 GSL but against 5 different opponents. Real names exists only if 2 player meet again and again in the grandfinals. I expect the same with leenock and life, in ~3 months they are "forgotten" again.
There was a hope for me with MKP vs DRG with 3 grandfinals in a row (MLG). example from other rts games: Flash vs JaeDong (especially 2010). in wc3 from 2004 until 2010, ~80% of all grandfinals were: Grubby vs Moon, Moon vs ToD, Grubby vs ToD, Moon vs Sky, Sky vs Grubby, Sky vs ToD (and later Lyn was able to jump in that group 2006-2010 and Lucifron 2007-2010).
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing. Also at that time it was a commitment to play BW as a pro in Korea. In Sc2 the fresh blood can raise freely without being held back by the system. Another thing is that people slacked off when they were on top, the entrance of kespa changed that and everyone is working hard again. Before it went mostly liks this, top koreans in the gsl got invites to tons of events and dropped of afterwards. Not really surprising when they lose weeks of practice that way.
But anyway if you looked at the foreign scene and ignored Mondragon, the dominance was also changing quiet often. So it might be an indication that Sc2 is still young and people haven't found out how to dominate or are to far from this level of perfection. Because the game is more complex/faster then BW as an exchange for the easier mechanics. (which people still don't use to its fullest).
Each tournament needs different preperation. In proleague you have a set map and you train on that map, either vs a specific opponent (aka sniper build) or all mus on that given map.
On GSL you prepare for a specific opponent, so your coaches find holes in his strategy/gameplay and you exploit them.
That's a pretty small sample size and you don't compare their records in GSL.
Compare this:
ProLeague
taeja (6-3) soulkey (6-4) stephano (2-2) bogus (6-8) TY (5-7) roro (6-8) huk (0-2)
GSL (set wins)
taeja (73-49) soulkey (8-8) stephano (2-2) bogus (18-8) TY (8-7) roro (13-5) huk (31-37)
Only Bogus and Roro are substantially different between the two leagues. Huk is different too but 2 games in ProLeague isn't enough to draw any conclusions.
EDIT: Note that GSL results include Code A, which is a better apples-to-apples comparison because ProLeague doesn't make any kind of distinction. But top to bottom, the players in both leagues seem to be doing about the same. I'd fully expect Parting to also have a similar ProLeague win % as he had in GSL (71-52).
On January 18 2013 02:47 Dingodile wrote: Yeah i miss the real names in sc2 too 3 or 6 months are nothing. Mvp won 5 GSL but against 5 different opponents. Real names exists only if 2 player meet again and again in the grandfinals. I expect the same with leenock and life, in ~3 months they are "forgotten" again.
There was a hope for me with MKP vs DRG with 3 grandfinals in a row (MLG). example from other rts games: Flash vs JaeDong (especially 2010). in wc3 from 2004 until 2010, ~80% of all grandfinals were: Grubby vs Moon, Moon vs ToD, Grubby vs ToD, Moon vs Sky, Sky vs Grubby, Sky vs ToD (and later Lyn was able to jump in that group 2006-2010 and Lucifron 2007-2010).
Afaik Mvp just won 4 GSLs up until now, still waiting for his G5L special trophy.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing. Also at that time it was a commitment to play BW as a pro in Korea. In Sc2 the fresh blood can raise freely without being held back by the system. Another thing is that people slacked off when they were on top, the entrance of kespa changed that and everyone is working hard again. Before it went mostly liks this, top koreans in the gsl got invites to tons of events and dropped of afterwards. Not really surprising when they lose weeks of practice that way.
But anyway if you looked at the foreign scene and ignored Mondragon, the dominance was also changing quiet often. So it might be an indication that Sc2 is still young and people haven't found out how to dominate or are to far from this level of perfection. Because the game is more complex/faster then BW as an exchange for the easier mechanics. (which people still don't use to its fullest).
Players being held back by the system? What the hell? You do realize that the Up & Down's act very similar to that of Survival and other prelims of actually getting in. The players were given all the resources and if they do good in practice they get called up to the A-Team. I don't buy into holding players back with the inner ranking tournaments they held in house. Stork did play WoW for a year and people noticed he dropped off a bit. He also had a girlfriend at the time. Some would argue you earned that free time and he was older brother. Yes, there are several cases where players got too comfortable and let go of the rope for a bit and they fell. I guess you could raise some questions with regards to a few players as to why they would still be on the main roster when they've played pretty bad for an extended period of time. Sure.
With regards to players like MC, he's an exceptional case due to the number of opportunities he receives and the cash he's made. Like I said, he gets invited to every other tournament I can think of. Definitely helps when he's the only SC2 player on SK and they can spare no expense for him. I like to call MC consistently inconsistent as he still nets results. As for the dominance by foreigners in BW? Yes and no. It's been the usual suspects always and there are several guys out there who would tell you prior to guys like JF doing what he did in the TSL that they could call it a mile away considering how many teams he's been on and how he developed as a player. BW was a lot easier to gauge personally for me.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
There are plenty of guys who don't pay enough attention to the scene including all the so-called personalities in the scene and you cannot really blame them because there is so much crap going on. It's really hard to get thorough information unless you actually hire someone to do it for you. Just saying.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
Mvp has 6 GSL final appearances over the course of two years, with a game that has been out for ~2-3 years I don't know what else to call a big name... :s
The first problem is that it's a bo1 so there's no chance to come back if you lose a game. That way even if you play a player that you can beat in a bo3 or bo5 but in a bo1 if you lose your first game you're out. Imagine if it was a bo5 and then the player who lost the first game would win 3 times in a row and have 3-1 victory. So the format has a lot of influence. The second part is that players prepare against you, and the better you are the easier it is to learn your style. So code s players can be easily countered by weaker players and lose to them, especially in the bo1 situation I mentioned earlier. I think that's most of the reasons, perhaps also the maps influence this since they are different and might have different imbalances.
On January 18 2013 07:15 Adonminus wrote: The first problem is that it's a bo1 so there's no chance to come back if you lose a game.
Not true, or more accurately it does not apply, because OP wants to make a statement about the groups, not about individuals. However, there is no reason to expect a difference between these groups, based on the current evidence.
On January 18 2013 07:15 Adonminus wrote: The second part is that players prepare against you,
It's probably a sample size problems. Taeja got 66% wins in Proleague, where as he got a "mere" 60% win in GSL. Even if you really good, you need to have enough games to get your ELO up.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing. Also at that time it was a commitment to play BW as a pro in Korea. In Sc2 the fresh blood can raise freely without being held back by the system. Another thing is that people slacked off when they were on top, the entrance of kespa changed that and everyone is working hard again. Before it went mostly liks this, top koreans in the gsl got invites to tons of events and dropped of afterwards. Not really surprising when they lose weeks of practice that way.
But anyway if you looked at the foreign scene and ignored Mondragon, the dominance was also changing quiet often. So it might be an indication that Sc2 is still young and people haven't found out how to dominate or are to far from this level of perfection. Because the game is more complex/faster then BW as an exchange for the easier mechanics. (which people still don't use to its fullest).
Individual Leagues and Proleague isn't the same. Some exceptional players do well in both, but its rare. You could even reverse the argument around and ask why are the top performers in proleague are not in gsl. It was the same in bw.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing. Also at that time it was a commitment to play BW as a pro in Korea. In Sc2 the fresh blood can raise freely without being held back by the system. Another thing is that people slacked off when they were on top, the entrance of kespa changed that and everyone is working hard again. Before it went mostly liks this, top koreans in the gsl got invites to tons of events and dropped of afterwards. Not really surprising when they lose weeks of practice that way.
But anyway if you looked at the foreign scene and ignored Mondragon, the dominance was also changing quiet often. So it might be an indication that Sc2 is still young and people haven't found out how to dominate or are to far from this level of perfection. Because the game is more complex/faster then BW as an exchange for the easier mechanics. (which people still don't use to its fullest).
what the f...?
I think he's right in saying that things have worked out well for kespa, in terms of the results, but implying that there's some sort of fraud at hand is a little bit much.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
SC2 is not a new game.
And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
I think a lot of pro players are nearing the skill ceiling and so the game is just very volatile now because one player can not distinguish themselves based solely on skill to a great enough extent from other players. You have to keep in mind there is a human skill ceiling as well as actual theoretical game skill ceiling. Humans will always make small mistakes in a game of imperfect information and can only multitask and control so many thing as once even if the game has higher ceiling.
On January 18 2013 09:23 snakeeyez wrote: I think a lot of pro players are nearing the skill ceiling and so the game is just very volatile now because one player can not distinguish themselves based solely on skill to a great enough extent from other players. You have to keep in mind there is a human skill ceiling as well as actual theoretical game skill ceiling. Humans will always make small mistakes in a game of imperfect information and can only multitask and control so many thing as once even if the game has higher ceiling.
I remember when Bobby Fisher reached the skill ceiling in chess. Didn't matter how young he was, his APM just didn't matter versus those old guys. Had to rely on brains.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
SC2 is not a new game.
And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years?
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
SC2 is not a new game.
And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years?
from 01 to 06 in osl finals, the names he mentioned (boxer, nada, oov) takes majority of the spots (at least one of the finalists)
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
SC2 is not a new game.
And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years?
from 01 to 06 in osl finals, the names he mentioned (boxer, nada, oov) takes majority of the spots (at least one of the finalists)
So that is 5-6year long. And might i add that this was 3 year after BW came out yet people now already want a game that is not even 3 year old, has no expansions to do the same.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
SC2 is not a new game.
And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years?
from 01 to 06 in osl finals, the names he mentioned (boxer, nada, oov) takes majority of the spots (at least one of the finalists)
So that is 5-6year long. And might i add that this was 3 year after BW came out yet people now already want a game that is not even 3 year old, has no expansions to do the same.
People want SC2 after 3 years to be anywhere near BW after 3 years? Stunning conclusion.
SC2 hasn't only had 3 years, too. It's had 3 years of active life + development time + lessons learned from SC1/BW being out for ages. If you say that the game needs expansions, you're also admitting the game is incomplete right now, which doesn't help your point much.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
SC2 is not a new game.
And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years?
from 01 to 06 in osl finals, the names he mentioned (boxer, nada, oov) takes majority of the spots (at least one of the finalists)
So that is 5-6year long. And might i add that this was 3 year after BW came out yet people now already want a game that is not even 3 year old, has no expansions to do the same.
i thought it was in regards to volatile nature of the game, not necessarily about what to expect. i'd add sc2 had a head start with the scene fully developed in regards to attention in preparations and depth taken into developing strategies and studying the game.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
SC2 is not a new game.
And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years?
from 01 to 06 in osl finals, the names he mentioned (boxer, nada, oov) takes majority of the spots (at least one of the finalists)
So that is 5-6year long. And might i add that this was 3 year after BW came out yet people now already want a game that is not even 3 year old, has no expansions to do the same.
i thought it was in regards to volatile nature of the game, not necessarily about what to expect. i'd add sc2 had a head start with the scene fully developed in regards to attention in preparations and depth taken into developing strategies and studying the game.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
Thats easy to explain, Kespa did a good job at keeping their star players on top and the others a bit away from there, pretty good for the marketing. Also at that time it was a commitment to play BW as a pro in Korea. In Sc2 the fresh blood can raise freely without being held back by the system. Another thing is that people slacked off when they were on top, the entrance of kespa changed that and everyone is working hard again. Before it went mostly liks this, top koreans in the gsl got invites to tons of events and dropped of afterwards. Not really surprising when they lose weeks of practice that way.
But anyway if you looked at the foreign scene and ignored Mondragon, the dominance was also changing quiet often. So it might be an indication that Sc2 is still young and people haven't found out how to dominate or are to far from this level of perfection. Because the game is more complex/faster then BW as an exchange for the easier mechanics. (which people still don't use to its fullest).
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
SC2 is not a new game.
And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years?
from 01 to 06 in osl finals, the names he mentioned (boxer, nada, oov) takes majority of the spots (at least one of the finalists)
So that is 5-6year long. And might i add that this was 3 year after BW came out yet people now already want a game that is not even 3 year old, has no expansions to do the same.
i thought it was in regards to volatile nature of the game, not necessarily about what to expect. i'd add sc2 had a head start with the scene fully developed in regards to attention in preparations and depth taken into developing strategies and studying the game.
You're absolutely correct. I agree.
People had RTS games figured out during Warcraft2, until BW came out. People had BW figured out, until Boxer changed everything Micro was king, until iloveoov changed everything Macro was king, and then Savior showed up And then Bisu And so on And so on
This is "Proleague players" vs." Proleague players with code S badge",and the former did better work than the latter in proleague.
Why? code S means nothing or minus?
This is "Proleague players" vs." Proleague players with code S badge",and the latter did badder work than the former in GSL.
Why? Proleague means nothing or minus?
I fix it for you. Proleague is bo1, GSL is bo3. There is not enough match in proleague for now to prove anything. This thread should not even exist it makes no sense.
This is "Proleague players" vs." Proleague players with code S badge",and the former did better work than the latter in proleague.
Why? code S means nothing or minus?
This is "Proleague players" vs." Proleague players with code S badge",and the latter did badder work than the former in GSL.
Why? Proleague means nothing or minus?
I fix it for you. Proleague is bo1, GSL is bo3. There is not enough match in proleague for now to prove anything. This thread should not even exist it makes no sense.
Proleague teams paid their players millions $ not for GSL at all.
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
SC2 is not a new game.
And he cited players from the first years of BW, not the end of it.
But isn't that a contradiction to his statement? If he needs the exact same players in the finals all the time how is it possible that there are more then 2 names in the first years?
from 01 to 06 in osl finals, the names he mentioned (boxer, nada, oov) takes majority of the spots (at least one of the finalists)
So that is 5-6year long. And might i add that this was 3 year after BW came out yet people now already want a game that is not even 3 year old, has no expansions to do the same.
People want SC2 after 3 years to be anywhere near BW after 3 years? Stunning conclusion.
SC2 hasn't only had 3 years, too. It's had 3 years of active life + development time + lessons learned from SC1/BW being out for ages. If you say that the game needs expansions, you're also admitting the game is incomplete right now, which doesn't help your point much.
Saying the game needs an expansion is not admitting the game is incomplete, it's saying it needs evolution. Why take his words and say he said something he did not?
On January 18 2013 02:33 Senshin wrote: I didnt miss anything but what reign? Where is nestea and MC now, they already getting outlucked, they are not good enough to have these names like in BW ( and never will get because there is to much luck involved) In Bw you had big names like yellow, iloveoov, boxer, nada, elky, nazgul, people that where really better on a constant level and longer play and I always will remember this.
Now you have here is mister unknown from south korea beating the crap out other progamers, this are things i dont remember happening in BW, in BW big names did big things, they always ended up high and winning, and the lesser player was also there, but most of the times they did lose or they would become better over time. There are so much players, one of them wins and then silent goes to the background in time.
I dont know really to explain, but it's what i feel about and maybe i am wrong.
i have news for you, nestea is back.
Mr Unknown? LOL are you joking? Was HyuN or Life Mr Unknown? Everyone and their mother was saying Hyun was an online beast months before the IPL streak, and everyone knew there was huge potential in Life.
You compare a complete game with a 12 year history (and established players) vs a new game, that is still being developed. plz.
Give it some time and the HotS expansion (which will fix alot of things) and things will get a lot better. But its not that volatile as you describe
Nestea looked terrible in his U&D group and will get completely crushed in code S.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NTfCK.png?1)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9BxKg.png?1)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5yQbW.png?1)
