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On December 31 2012 04:01 ratbert wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 03:43 Assirra wrote:On December 31 2012 03:30 ratbert wrote:On December 31 2012 03:26 ineversmile wrote:On December 31 2012 00:59 taldarimAltar wrote:
Out in first round, I'm calling it I give it the first or second round. Stephano is the most predictable zerg in the foreign scene. ya he always wins. so predictable  If he always won why does he not have more then 1 big championship this year? He is good but please, always winning is only from Mvp back before his wrists exploded. yeah i know. i was just making fun of people calling him "predictable" . his playstyle is probably one of the least predictable of the zergs around. roach hydra zvt, need i say more?
its not that he has no interesting Styles, its just that he is not someone like viOLet, who can always just do a crazy counterattack or Nestea who just plays very reactive, its just that he most times just goes for his builds and does them. his builds are quite good though, even though I am not a fan of him a have to admit that.
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On December 30 2012 14:20 thrawn1020 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 05:15 Bobster wrote:On December 30 2012 03:18 unix04 wrote:On December 29 2012 12:22 Dosey wrote:On December 29 2012 12:17 Assirra wrote:On December 29 2012 12:00 Dosey wrote:On December 29 2012 11:12 Assirra wrote:On December 29 2012 10:11 Skwid1g wrote:On December 29 2012 09:56 decado90 wrote:On December 29 2012 09:19 The_Darkness wrote:
[quote]
Last time they had affirmative action for KESPA players. Were you broken up about that too?
Oh please. They dedicated their lives to SC1, playing 12+ hour days for years. Big difference between seeding the most influential players in esports history and foreigners. Foreigners don't have a chance to qualify. It's not an online qualifier and it's ridiculously expensive to fly to and stay in Korea just to attempt to qualify for the lesser bracket of the two tournaments. If there were no seeds given out we'd basically never see a foreigner in the GSL even if they had the skill to compete. Seeds being given out is both fair and unfair, depending on how you look at it. You know, this argument would hold if some players like HuK didn't already live there or players like Stephano that got a teamhouse to go to there didn't got seeded. What exactly is the difference between them and another korean lurking in code B waiting for a chance that could be the next Mvp? Let them qualify like the rest so they might actually put up a fight for once since we know how most seeds work. Just because he has a team house over there doesn't mean that he can just drop everything to go over there and train for a month, then attempt code a qualifiers, then play through code a, and FINALLY play in code s if he manages those minefields. He could probably earn 10x more going abroad and winning whiteman events in that timeframe. Seeds entice top players that would otherwise not even bother. He could and i have no doubt EG and sponsors would gladly pay him considering what an advertising move that would be. If he wants to make more money then going through the qualifiers that his choice. But with choice comes consequences and now he gets best of both world that some people like me disagree with. I don't think you understand how sponsors work... That would be a terrible pitch. "HEY RAIDCALL, I HAVE A GENIUS IDEA!!! We're going to send Stephano to korea to train/play for 3 months to qualify for Code S! He's our most consistent foreign tournament player, but who cares about foreign stuff, even though you're a foreign based company! Pay for this dude to stay here for 3 months and POSSIBLY make it to the big stage of Code S while ignoring all foreign tournaments and getting your brand virtually no recognition! It's a sweet plan!" You know it doesn't cost a lot to sponsor one player for 3 months in Korea. We are not talking tens of thousands in endorsements. It would be very little cost and sending him would increase their global footprint by adding Korea to their audience. In the case that stephano does make it far into code s that will translate to stronger brand recognition in other places in the world, especially when he returns to crash the foreign scene once again. Rc already has many players already to spread their brand in foreign tourneys. One less will not ruin their campaign. It really comes down to your confidence in Stephan but it's low risk high reward. Every once in a while it's ok to make a few bets like this especially if you are in the marketing industry. Well, it's also about opportunity cost. What could Stephano do in those three-four months were he not stuck in Korea? It's always about these kinds of decisions with sponsors and budgets. But honestly, Stephano is the undisputed king among non-Koreans, he's won more money, more prestige, beat more Koreans than anyone else - he has nothing left to prove here. I think it's fine. Well, it is most certainly not undisputed. Nothing in that conversation is ever undisputed, unless someone has a run good enough that we call them Bonjwha. And Stephano, while having done well, is not really close to that level. IMO he has a career that has been extremely well managed to show his best side, while attempting to if not cover up, at least mitigate any potential counterargument against his apparent "Best Foreigner" status. MC is the biggest money winner in SC2, and nobody is really considering him as the undisputed "Best Player". He travels a lot. He seems to finish around the top of the field. That's all well and good, but it's not like what Life did, winning a GSL and while he still had the title, winning one of the largest and most important foreigner offline weekend events. Stephano has not won more than one large major event in any year of his career. Undisputed best player status requires major wins, and more than one a year. I view Stephano as more of a Leenock than a Life. A player who has the ability to get there, but maybe his practice regimen is a little off sometimes, or he just isn't talking to the right practice parters, or something is happening in his life we don't know about. But when he finds something really good, he looks unstoppable. The problem is that he doesn't seem to find enough of them.
What foreigner has won more than one big event per year and would thus be better than Stephano (according to your logic)?
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Lol people still arguing about Stephano. Jeesus he' s the most accomplished Foreigner vs Koreans. Find me 1 guy with the amount of games Stephano has vs Koreans that still has a better win %. Oh and he has beaten consistenly big names too.
Haters gonna hate I guess.
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Took him long enough, he better make it to Ro4 at least or something really insane like actually winning the whole season :D.
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Be great to see him.. Really hope he does well! Hope he isnt too predicatable as he hates this type of format for a reason! Best to test your self vs the best!!!
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I'm not sure if he has the capacity to go far in there. But I surely hope he does! GL
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All we can say is: finally 
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On December 31 2012 04:22 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
Lol people still arguing about Stephano. Jeesus he' s the most accomplished Foreigner vs Koreans. Find me 1 guy with the amount of games Stephano has vs Koreans that still has a better win %. Oh and he has beaten consistenly big names too.
Haters gonna hate I guess.
Actually, Jinro's record was batter than Stephano's before he retired.
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On December 31 2012 04:17 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 14:20 thrawn1020 wrote:On December 30 2012 05:15 Bobster wrote:On December 30 2012 03:18 unix04 wrote:On December 29 2012 12:22 Dosey wrote:On December 29 2012 12:17 Assirra wrote:On December 29 2012 12:00 Dosey wrote:On December 29 2012 11:12 Assirra wrote:On December 29 2012 10:11 Skwid1g wrote:On December 29 2012 09:56 decado90 wrote:
[quote]
Oh please. They dedicated their lives to SC1, playing 12+ hour days for years. Big difference between seeding the most influential players in esports history and foreigners. Foreigners don't have a chance to qualify. It's not an online qualifier and it's ridiculously expensive to fly to and stay in Korea just to attempt to qualify for the lesser bracket of the two tournaments. If there were no seeds given out we'd basically never see a foreigner in the GSL even if they had the skill to compete. Seeds being given out is both fair and unfair, depending on how you look at it. You know, this argument would hold if some players like HuK didn't already live there or players like Stephano that got a teamhouse to go to there didn't got seeded. What exactly is the difference between them and another korean lurking in code B waiting for a chance that could be the next Mvp? Let them qualify like the rest so they might actually put up a fight for once since we know how most seeds work. Just because he has a team house over there doesn't mean that he can just drop everything to go over there and train for a month, then attempt code a qualifiers, then play through code a, and FINALLY play in code s if he manages those minefields. He could probably earn 10x more going abroad and winning whiteman events in that timeframe. Seeds entice top players that would otherwise not even bother. He could and i have no doubt EG and sponsors would gladly pay him considering what an advertising move that would be. If he wants to make more money then going through the qualifiers that his choice. But with choice comes consequences and now he gets best of both world that some people like me disagree with. I don't think you understand how sponsors work... That would be a terrible pitch. "HEY RAIDCALL, I HAVE A GENIUS IDEA!!! We're going to send Stephano to korea to train/play for 3 months to qualify for Code S! He's our most consistent foreign tournament player, but who cares about foreign stuff, even though you're a foreign based company! Pay for this dude to stay here for 3 months and POSSIBLY make it to the big stage of Code S while ignoring all foreign tournaments and getting your brand virtually no recognition! It's a sweet plan!" You know it doesn't cost a lot to sponsor one player for 3 months in Korea. We are not talking tens of thousands in endorsements. It would be very little cost and sending him would increase their global footprint by adding Korea to their audience. In the case that stephano does make it far into code s that will translate to stronger brand recognition in other places in the world, especially when he returns to crash the foreign scene once again. Rc already has many players already to spread their brand in foreign tourneys. One less will not ruin their campaign. It really comes down to your confidence in Stephan but it's low risk high reward. Every once in a while it's ok to make a few bets like this especially if you are in the marketing industry. Well, it's also about opportunity cost. What could Stephano do in those three-four months were he not stuck in Korea? It's always about these kinds of decisions with sponsors and budgets. But honestly, Stephano is the undisputed king among non-Koreans, he's won more money, more prestige, beat more Koreans than anyone else - he has nothing left to prove here. I think it's fine. Well, it is most certainly not undisputed. Nothing in that conversation is ever undisputed, unless someone has a run good enough that we call them Bonjwha. And Stephano, while having done well, is not really close to that level. IMO he has a career that has been extremely well managed to show his best side, while attempting to if not cover up, at least mitigate any potential counterargument against his apparent "Best Foreigner" status. MC is the biggest money winner in SC2, and nobody is really considering him as the undisputed "Best Player". He travels a lot. He seems to finish around the top of the field. That's all well and good, but it's not like what Life did, winning a GSL and while he still had the title, winning one of the largest and most important foreigner offline weekend events. Stephano has not won more than one large major event in any year of his career. Undisputed best player status requires major wins, and more than one a year. I view Stephano as more of a Leenock than a Life. A player who has the ability to get there, but maybe his practice regimen is a little off sometimes, or he just isn't talking to the right practice parters, or something is happening in his life we don't know about. But when he finds something really good, he looks unstoppable. The problem is that he doesn't seem to find enough of them. What foreigner has won more than one big event per year and would thus be better than Stephano (according to your logic)?
Shit like that is deceptive. Major is a lot better than a lot of people that have better results than him. I've realized people just look at results and don't watch Starcraft. They don't analyze games, or look at player's strengths and weaknesses.
Stephano beats MKP and MVP with a move roach hydra, and gets thrashed by Xlord and idra and they proclaim him Code S. Major loses a close series to Symbol and Cj Hero at WCS in the first group, playing very well, and he's written off as overrated. Scarlett plays like garbage and beats Bomber and Ryung and she's proclaimed a top 2 foreigner.
None of this "best x player in the y" nonsence should be considered except if explained by a high level player that does research and actually watches and anaylzes the game. Plat players riding Stephano into the Ro4 GSL or Grubby into Code S (his game against Sting was one of the most horrid things I've ever seen) should learn more about the game and players before making claims.
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It will be amazing to see what happens with Stephano in Korea!! Ever since he arrived on the scene, people have been debating how well he would do against the top Koreans in the world in a GSL setting! Can't wait to watch it and "GO GO Stephano!!"
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On December 31 2012 09:33 carloselcoco wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 04:22 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
Lol people still arguing about Stephano. Jeesus he' s the most accomplished Foreigner vs Koreans. Find me 1 guy with the amount of games Stephano has vs Koreans that still has a better win %. Oh and he has beaten consistenly big names too.
Haters gonna hate I guess. Actually, Jinro's record was batter than Stephano's before he retired.
how many games did jinro have ?
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On December 31 2012 10:08 MyNameIsAlex wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 09:33 carloselcoco wrote:On December 31 2012 04:22 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
Lol people still arguing about Stephano. Jeesus he' s the most accomplished Foreigner vs Koreans. Find me 1 guy with the amount of games Stephano has vs Koreans that still has a better win %. Oh and he has beaten consistenly big names too.
Haters gonna hate I guess. Actually, Jinro's record was batter than Stephano's before he retired. how many games did jinro have ?
Isn't Stephano's lifetime record vs Koreans sub 50%
I wouldn't be bragging lol. Makes him one of the worst players in Code S :D
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On December 31 2012 10:21 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 10:08 MyNameIsAlex wrote:On December 31 2012 09:33 carloselcoco wrote:On December 31 2012 04:22 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
Lol people still arguing about Stephano. Jeesus he' s the most accomplished Foreigner vs Koreans. Find me 1 guy with the amount of games Stephano has vs Koreans that still has a better win %. Oh and he has beaten consistenly big names too.
Haters gonna hate I guess. Actually, Jinro's record was batter than Stephano's before he retired. how many games did jinro have ? Isn't Stephano's lifetime record vs Koreans sub 50% I wouldn't be bragging lol. Makes him one of the worst players in Code S :D
i am a fan of your evidence and well drawn conclusions
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On December 31 2012 10:08 MyNameIsAlex wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 09:33 carloselcoco wrote:On December 31 2012 04:22 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
Lol people still arguing about Stephano. Jeesus he' s the most accomplished Foreigner vs Koreans. Find me 1 guy with the amount of games Stephano has vs Koreans that still has a better win %. Oh and he has beaten consistenly big names too.
Haters gonna hate I guess. Actually, Jinro's record was batter than Stephano's before he retired. how many games did jinro have ?
well, there is an easy way to see about that  Jinro . I love TLPD :D. though you gotta remember when Jinro was in his prime, he was INSANELY good, like he TLO and HuK (and HayprO) were with oGs and pretty much kicking ass day and night.
EDIT: go to the liquipedia page and don't look at the statistics, those are most recent which is not a good display of the Gorilla terran's dominance.
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On December 30 2012 02:54 thrawn1020 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 22:32 m0ck wrote:On December 29 2012 22:04 Thurken wrote:
I'm afraid of the comment here about Stephano's run, whether it is good or bad.
There is an incomprehension about GSL. It may be Artosis' fault or someone else but people think it is a tournament won by the best player.
Guess what, GSL is the most versatile tournament ever.
I'm not making claim without facts: look at the five seasons of 2012.
There were 9 people (out of ten) going top 2. Only MVP was able to do it twice in one year.
There were 18 people (out of 20) going top 4. Only DRG (besides mvp) was able to do it twice in a year.
You can say the top4 world in starcraft change every two month or you can maybe see that GSL is not about who is the best but who (between the best in the world) has the best strategies in a specific metagame, who has bracket luck etc... because because so many things such as no loser bracket, long preparation time, team houses and coach are out of your control as a progammer. No one likes to think of probabilities when considering sports. GSL is pretty random. Match-ups, build-orders and a lot of players very close in skill. Whichever way it goes, I think we can be sure that the significance of the result will be overestimated ^^ See, it's not the Matchups -- So imagine a person, let's call them JYP, has a bad matchup, and let's say it is against Terran. Is it RANDOM that they lose if they play against a Terran? I doubt it. Also, Ro16 is _picked_, and the Ro8 matchups are determined by who picks whom. That's not terribly _random_, at least not in any way that term has ever been defined. There may be variance from season to season, but that's nonrandom as well. Also, build orders are a non-random event. What choices are out there may be dictated by time and or place, but it is assuredly not random. I know nobody really says it enough, but nothing any progamer does is random. It may be a mistake, they may forget things from time to time, but forgetfulness is not random either, because a great progamer notices when they forget things. Decisions on what build order to choose are also non-random. Even if the metagame says "This is what you do in this matchup", a coach and a player decide what to do in a certain map in a certain score in a certain position. Everything is being mapped out. Sometimes a plan doesn't work; after all, somebody does lose. But it is assuredly not random. Skill. Finally we get to the real heart of it. Skill is the overriding factor. Skill is not random, but rather it is a function of understanding and (lots of) practice. It is also nonlinear. Different players may understand things sooner than others, and that plays out in results. But there again, that's not random either. Frankly, luck is not the reason anything happens in starcraft. And things that look like luck are probably something that has happened a number of times in in-house games. The largest luck factor in the GSL is the Round of 32 groups, and there are conspiracy theories as to how those are selected and just how random they are. But the rest is time and place specific.
What is random is when player A has two specific builds to react to a one rax expo. But the terran could do, say, 2 builds after that rax expo. When player A perform his first build, it do well against the first follow-up to the one rax expo, but do not do well against the second. Now, given that you dont have scouting information in time to know which follow-up the terran choosed, which build, out of your two builds, are you going to choose? It's random, i'm sorry, even if the randomness can be diminished by looking a lot of replays of your opponent to see what follow-up he uses on what map etc.
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On December 31 2012 09:44 decado90 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 04:17 Doodsmack wrote:On December 30 2012 14:20 thrawn1020 wrote:On December 30 2012 05:15 Bobster wrote:On December 30 2012 03:18 unix04 wrote:On December 29 2012 12:22 Dosey wrote:On December 29 2012 12:17 Assirra wrote:On December 29 2012 12:00 Dosey wrote:On December 29 2012 11:12 Assirra wrote:On December 29 2012 10:11 Skwid1g wrote:
[quote]
Foreigners don't have a chance to qualify. It's not an online qualifier and it's ridiculously expensive to fly to and stay in Korea just to attempt to qualify for the lesser bracket of the two tournaments. If there were no seeds given out we'd basically never see a foreigner in the GSL even if they had the skill to compete. Seeds being given out is both fair and unfair, depending on how you look at it. You know, this argument would hold if some players like HuK didn't already live there or players like Stephano that got a teamhouse to go to there didn't got seeded. What exactly is the difference between them and another korean lurking in code B waiting for a chance that could be the next Mvp? Let them qualify like the rest so they might actually put up a fight for once since we know how most seeds work. Just because he has a team house over there doesn't mean that he can just drop everything to go over there and train for a month, then attempt code a qualifiers, then play through code a, and FINALLY play in code s if he manages those minefields. He could probably earn 10x more going abroad and winning whiteman events in that timeframe. Seeds entice top players that would otherwise not even bother. He could and i have no doubt EG and sponsors would gladly pay him considering what an advertising move that would be. If he wants to make more money then going through the qualifiers that his choice. But with choice comes consequences and now he gets best of both world that some people like me disagree with. I don't think you understand how sponsors work... That would be a terrible pitch. "HEY RAIDCALL, I HAVE A GENIUS IDEA!!! We're going to send Stephano to korea to train/play for 3 months to qualify for Code S! He's our most consistent foreign tournament player, but who cares about foreign stuff, even though you're a foreign based company! Pay for this dude to stay here for 3 months and POSSIBLY make it to the big stage of Code S while ignoring all foreign tournaments and getting your brand virtually no recognition! It's a sweet plan!" You know it doesn't cost a lot to sponsor one player for 3 months in Korea. We are not talking tens of thousands in endorsements. It would be very little cost and sending him would increase their global footprint by adding Korea to their audience. In the case that stephano does make it far into code s that will translate to stronger brand recognition in other places in the world, especially when he returns to crash the foreign scene once again. Rc already has many players already to spread their brand in foreign tourneys. One less will not ruin their campaign. It really comes down to your confidence in Stephan but it's low risk high reward. Every once in a while it's ok to make a few bets like this especially if you are in the marketing industry. Well, it's also about opportunity cost. What could Stephano do in those three-four months were he not stuck in Korea? It's always about these kinds of decisions with sponsors and budgets. But honestly, Stephano is the undisputed king among non-Koreans, he's won more money, more prestige, beat more Koreans than anyone else - he has nothing left to prove here. I think it's fine. Well, it is most certainly not undisputed. Nothing in that conversation is ever undisputed, unless someone has a run good enough that we call them Bonjwha. And Stephano, while having done well, is not really close to that level. IMO he has a career that has been extremely well managed to show his best side, while attempting to if not cover up, at least mitigate any potential counterargument against his apparent "Best Foreigner" status. MC is the biggest money winner in SC2, and nobody is really considering him as the undisputed "Best Player". He travels a lot. He seems to finish around the top of the field. That's all well and good, but it's not like what Life did, winning a GSL and while he still had the title, winning one of the largest and most important foreigner offline weekend events. Stephano has not won more than one large major event in any year of his career. Undisputed best player status requires major wins, and more than one a year. I view Stephano as more of a Leenock than a Life. A player who has the ability to get there, but maybe his practice regimen is a little off sometimes, or he just isn't talking to the right practice parters, or something is happening in his life we don't know about. But when he finds something really good, he looks unstoppable. The problem is that he doesn't seem to find enough of them. What foreigner has won more than one big event per year and would thus be better than Stephano (according to your logic)? Shit like that is deceptive. Major is a lot better than a lot of people that have better results than him. I've realized people just look at results and don't watch Starcraft. They don't analyze games, or look at player's strengths and weaknesses. Stephano beats MKP and MVP with a move roach hydra, and gets thrashed by Xlord and idra and they proclaim him Code S. Major loses a close series to Symbol and Cj Hero at WCS in the first group, playing very well, and he's written off as overrated. Scarlett plays like garbage and beats Bomber and Ryung and she's proclaimed a top 2 foreigner. None of this "best x player in the y" nonsence should be considered except if explained by a high level player that does research and actually watches and anaylzes the game. Plat players riding Stephano into the Ro4 GSL or Grubby into Code S (his game against Sting was one of the most horrid things I've ever seen) should learn more about the game and players before making claims.
And this is why GOM is genius for seeding Stephano. Even if he flames out in the first round, the amount of eyeballs on him will be tremendous. GOM and EG are the only ones who understand marketing.
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damn, hell yea stephano. no one deserves it more
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On December 31 2012 11:24 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 10:08 MyNameIsAlex wrote:On December 31 2012 09:33 carloselcoco wrote:On December 31 2012 04:22 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
Lol people still arguing about Stephano. Jeesus he' s the most accomplished Foreigner vs Koreans. Find me 1 guy with the amount of games Stephano has vs Koreans that still has a better win %. Oh and he has beaten consistenly big names too.
Haters gonna hate I guess. Actually, Jinro's record was batter than Stephano's before he retired. how many games did jinro have ? well, there is an easy way to see about that Jinro . I love TLPD :D. though you gotta remember when Jinro was in his prime, he was INSANELY good, like he TLO and HuK (and HayprO) were with oGs and pretty much kicking ass day and night. EDIT: go to the liquipedia page and don't look at the statistics, those are most recent which is not a good display of the Gorilla terran's dominance.
as far as I remember these guys were good but never kicking that much korean ass. Let alone kick it consistenly for a couple years or even change the metagame of matchups.
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EPT
