Stephano most probably going to Code S - Page 30

On December 31 2012 14:46 GhostKorean wrote:

Yeah but everyone, both koreans and foreigners, were worse. That's like saying Boxer or oov were less accomplished than some average kespa pro now because the level of play is so much higher

On December 31 2012 19:43 Thurken wrote:


If you stay consistent like Boxer over a long period of time it is very different. But I find Flash's run more impressive but there was more competition.
At the beginning of a game, fewer players play. Very few foreigner have the opportunity to go to Korea. Korean doesn't have the time to get the most out of their practice regime, their team house or their coach. The game is a bigger work in progress, so if you find an innovative strategy like Jinro did it's gonna carry you a lot more (and after that you'll have trouble to do good results or even ok result). All that makes it more likely to have a foreigner do good in Korea.

On December 30 2012 02:54 thrawn1020 wrote:


See, it's not the Matchups -- So imagine a person, let's call them JYP, has a bad matchup, and let's say it is against Terran. Is it RANDOM that they lose if they play against a Terran? I doubt it. Also, Ro16 is _picked_, and the Ro8 matchups are determined by who picks whom. That's not terribly _random_, at least not in any way that term has ever been defined. There may be variance from season to season, but that's nonrandom as well.

Also, build orders are a non-random event. What choices are out there may be dictated by time and or place, but it is assuredly not random. I know nobody really says it enough, but nothing any progamer does is random. It may be a mistake, they may forget things from time to time, but forgetfulness is not random either, because a great progamer notices when they forget things. Decisions on what build order to choose are also non-random. Even if the metagame says "This is what you do in this matchup", a coach and a player decide what to do in a certain map in a certain score in a certain position. Everything is being mapped out. Sometimes a plan doesn't work; after all, somebody does lose. But it is assuredly not random.

Skill. Finally we get to the real heart of it. Skill is the overriding factor. Skill is not random, but rather it is a function of understanding and (lots of) practice. It is also nonlinear. Different players may understand things sooner than others, and that plays out in results. But there again, that's not random either.

Frankly, luck is not the reason anything happens in starcraft. And things that look like luck are probably something that has happened a number of times in in-house games. The largest luck factor in the GSL is the Round of 32 groups, and there are conspiracy theories as to how those are selected and just how random they are. But the rest is time and place specific.

On December 31 2012 14:46 GhostKorean wrote:

Yeah but everyone, both koreans and foreigners, were worse. That's like saying Boxer or oov were less accomplished than some average kespa pro now because the level of play is so much higher

On December 31 2012 11:48 Natalya wrote:



What is random is when player A has two specific builds to react to a one rax expo. But the terran could do, say, 2 builds after that rax expo. When player A perform his first build, it do well against the first follow-up to the one rax expo, but do not do well against the second. Now, given that you dont have scouting information in time to know which follow-up the terran choosed, which build, out of your two builds, are you going to choose? It's random, i'm sorry, even if the randomness can be diminished by looking a lot of replays of your opponent to see what follow-up he uses on what map etc.

On January 01 2013 15:59 thrawn1020 wrote:


For starters, a one-rax expo just means "All the stuff that is not cheese." That's first off. So, what you mean is that a terran could do two builds that are not early cheese. Also, you are not talking about a specific matchup, just a game that has a terran in it. And just because two specific builds do exist does means neither that they are equivalently good, nor have you implied what the opponent might have been doing that we are not scouting. Moreover, scouting info is a result of map awareness and effort; the implied lack therein, when taken to its conclusion, also implies that the terran player you are referencing feels their build would be safe against anything that the opponent would be doing. Randomness is not diminished by watching replays specifically, though that may provide some insight into the opponent's psyche, but rather by having practiced against similar situations, and knowing what is possible from an opponent through timings. Furthermore, even taking on the example as given presumes that we are choosing from two all-in followups to a basic early game. And the choice of example, and lack of specifics says more about your knowledge of the game than it does about the game as it's being played.