|
Mechanics with friendly fire:
- Psionic storm
- E.M.P.
- Siege tank splash
- Vortex
- Force field
- Seeker missile
- Blinding cloud
- Nuclear strike
Mechanics without friendly fire:
- Hellion attack
- Baneling attack
- Ultralisk attack
- Fungal growth
- Guardian shield
- Time warp
- Seeker missile 2.0
- Vortex 2.0
- Colossus
- Point Defense Drone
- Thor attack
- Widow mine attack
As you can see, all the ones in the second list have been introduced in Starcraft 2 and don't date to Brood War. In fact, in some cases an ability was clearly inspired by Brood War, yet lost its friendly fire. (dark swarm -> point defense drone, maelstrom -> fungal growth, spider mine -> widow mine)
Out of all of the new abilities, only seeker missile, blinding cloud, force field and vortex have friendly fire. Curiously, two of those abilities will be changed come Heart of the Swarm into abilities that lack friendly fire. The other abilities in the game that have friendly fire are iconic abilities from Brood War, where it would be difficult to remove this aspect. Nevertheless, siege tanks now have smart casting, which effectively reduces the danger of friendly fire.
|
|
|
On December 24 2012 02:19 Big-t wrote:
Make Fungel FF plz^^
Well, it might make aaaaamazing fungal a little harder and probably bad if combines with zerglings. But as you apply it manually... I'm not sure if it would change a lot. Apart from giving zerg a coll "get out" move. Which is awesome! :-) (building 5Nydus networks is just too much setup for a taunt)
|
This will never happen because Blizzard wants SC2 to be a casual game.
|
On December 24 2012 02:54 Big J wrote:Well, it might make aaaaamazing fungal a little harder and probably bad if combines with zerglings. But as you apply it manually... I'm not sure if it would change a lot. Apart from giving zerg a coll "get out" move. Which is awesome! :-) (building 5Nydus networks is just too much setup for a taunt)
I dunno about bad, it would mean fungal would be used on units to the rear and pre-engagement to hold things for the lings/blings to kill. I got the impression that was the original idea behind it before its damage output was uber-buffed. I don't see it making that much difference if you're not spamming the things randomly all over the fight but I'm in favour of it all the same.
I can't see how the Collosus could work with FF, I imagine it'd do more damage to the zealots than the enemy. It'll be like tanks only moreso as its usually going to be hitting most of the front line. Banelings even moreso, they'd have to have a 5 fold increase in damage output if they wipe each other out everytime one detonates :D But yeah, it doesn't make much sense that most AOE doesn't do FF.
-edit
On December 23 2012 20:44 Xapti wrote:
1. Personally I'm a fan of having siege tanks act like in Starcraft where there was a extremely small delay between the siege tank shot and the damage. The lack of this is what is what people call smart targeting. Also realize that they didn't remove that trait from [all] units in Starcraft 2, they removed it from the siege tank, but kept/introduced it to/for other units such as the roach and I think the hellion and colossus, but I don't remember exactly.
Yeah I've been thinking that, it's not that they've introduced some clever targeting AI, its just that they made the shell connect instantly after firing (and gave it a posh name to make it sound like a feature). I'd be in favour of a change back and a bit more damage to the tanks to compensate. Not too much mind as simply offsetting your tanks a bit all but counters the synchronised firing. But anything that adds that bit more depth to the micro is a good thing.
|
I haven't read the whole thread, but the point that giving FF to a unit makes its use harder. Yes, that's true and it is a problem because Blizzard needs to have the game fun and balanaced in low leagues - there is really no point in arguing against that, unless you bring a couple of milion to cover for lost income from loosing casuals, end of story.
On the other hand, this problem could, as it often happens, be turned into an advantage - the raw damage of said units could be made stronger in return. Whne done right, these two effect can compensate for low-level play (you kill more, but you lose more), yet it could remain balanced in high-level play (I have to protect my units, you have to split yours). And I believe that this is one of the things that high-level play actually needs - stronger splash to necessitate more micro and splitting. Wouldn't it really do what we always wanted - break the deathball?
|
Fungals, and Banelings. Banelings should be immune to baneling damage.
|
On December 24 2012 03:47 opisska wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread, but the point that giving FF to a unit makes its use harder. Yes, that's true and it is a problem because Blizzard needs to have the game fun and balanaced in low leagues - there is really no point in arguing against that, unless you bring a couple of milion to cover for lost income from loosing casuals, end of story.
On the other hand, this problem could, as it often happens, be turned into an advantage - the raw damage of said units could be made stronger in return. Whne done right, these two effect can compensate for low-level play (you kill more, but you lose more), yet it could remain balanced in high-level play (I have to protect my units, you have to split yours). And I believe that this is one of the things that high-level play actually needs - stronger splash to necessitate more micro and splitting. Wouldn't it really do what we always wanted - break the deathball?
how about making the whole thing league specific? like in lower leagues you don't have ff and in higher ones you do. this can be combined with other [difficulty rising] changes aswell, it would make the game more challenging for the real good players. then it also should be possible to turn on/off such specifications in custom games.
so this way casual players can still enjoy their low standard play while the players seeking for challenge have something to work also. isn't that what blizzard wants?
|
Storm friendly fire only does 50% damage to friendly units iirc
Also, are you sure Widow Mine doesn't do friendly fire? Thought it did...
|
I'll be honest, I never liked friendly fire in video games in general. Tank friendly fire onto their own units is great strategy wise, but if I had a say, I wouldn't have it in the game, and I'm not exactly one that likes terrans, and i know it would benefit them a lot to have it removed. I know it's there because without it i mean, it doesnt make much sense, you fire into a group, everything should get hit, not just their units while yours are magically unaffected, but in a game... not everything has to make sense!
I'm fine with whatever though, that's just my personal opinion that doesn't matter at all.
|
Friendly fire adds depth and micro to the game.
No reason for it not to be there.
|
On December 24 2012 05:10 CrtBalorda wrote:
Friendly fire adds depth and micro to the game.
No reason for it not to be there.
depth and micro are exactly what big dustin is not gonna go for
|
On December 24 2012 00:58 JackReacher wrote:
I would freaking LOVE to see Banelings deal friendly fire. It only makes sense!
Edit: Guy above me inspired me to say that fungal friendly fire would be freaking awesome, especially now that it IS a projectile in HotS anyhow, so don't shoot it at your own guys! :D
Baneling friendly fire would instantly remove the unit from the game and make them more worthless then the reaper.
Ask yourself: Why the hell would you make them if they can blow up your whole army?
This is not like tankfire or storm which are ranged, this is a unit that rolls together with your army that does "meelee" damage.
|
On December 24 2012 06:34 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:58 JackReacher wrote:
I would freaking LOVE to see Banelings deal friendly fire. It only makes sense!
Edit: Guy above me inspired me to say that fungal friendly fire would be freaking awesome, especially now that it IS a projectile in HotS anyhow, so don't shoot it at your own guys! :D Baneling friendly fire would instantly remove the unit from the game and make them more worthless then the reaper. Ask yourself: Why the hell would you make them if they can blow up your whole army? This is not like tankfire or storm which are ranged, this is a unit that rolls together with your army that does "meelee" damage.
it would be perfect if banelings would do ff to your own army (the only exception: other banelings).
i would love to see that, it would just need a little more micro skills because you had to split your banelings and the rest of the army.
these are small things which differ good players from not so good ones and therefore it makes the game for interesting but no, blizz is probably going the "casual-way" like they did with their other horses, wow and diablo, too.
|
I like the idea of FF on aoe so there is more thought and skill in it's usage.
|
By the way, using "FF" as an abbreviation for "Friendly Fire" is sort of annoying because so many people are used to it being "Force Field". Not really a big deal, just was confusing for the first 3 times I saw it.
Anyway, tanks and friendly fire vs zerg is actually pretty stupid. Either make it so more things have a friendly fire mechanic (ultras splash damage, for instance?) or make tanks have an upgrade that removes/nullifies friendly fire. If you remember campaign (if you played it)... there was an upgrade you could get for tanks that made friendly fire much less. In fact, there were about 10 upgrades that would add a lot more depth and actually be good changes if Blizzard implemented them.
More upgrades = more choices = better game.
|
Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options:
-Making FG a missile cast OR
-FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness)
-Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage)
-Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades)
-Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to
another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy
-Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
|
On December 24 2012 08:45 KaiserCommander wrote:
Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options:
-Making FG a missile cast OR
-FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness)
-Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage)
-Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades)
-Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to
another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy
-Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
Friendly fire banelings would literally break the game. Good luck fighting terran bio when you blow up half of your zerglings.
|
On December 24 2012 08:49 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:45 KaiserCommander wrote:
Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options:
-Making FG a missile cast OR
-FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness)
-Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage)
-Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades)
-Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to
another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy
-Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
Friendly fire banelings would literally break the game. Good luck fighting terran bio when you blow up half of your zerglings.
Give reason and examples, Baneling have not a risk using it besides miss detonation, it will only change the matter that if you pair them with the speedling they'll with actually die; that's why more bulky Banes will compensate and paired with air/long range units will do better
|
On December 24 2012 08:58 KaiserCommander wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:49 Glurkenspurk wrote:On December 24 2012 08:45 KaiserCommander wrote:
Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options:
-Making FG a missile cast OR
-FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness)
-Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage)
-Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades)
-Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to
another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy
-Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
Friendly fire banelings would literally break the game. Good luck fighting terran bio when you blow up half of your zerglings. Give reason and examples, Baneling have not a risk using it besides miss detonation, it will only change the matter that if you pair them with the speedling they'll with actually die; that's why more bulky Banes will compensate and paired with air/long range units will do better
The reality is, You would surround the terran army with zerglings and then the banelings come in and after it hits 1 marine half your zerglings will die because they die in 1 hit to banelings. Thats ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
