I was watching HSC kinda casually watching a few zergs dominate Terrans, and one thing struck me: Isnt tank friendly fire (FF) kinda often backfiring on Terrans themselves? That kind of had me thinking about how FF works. As far as I know, only tanks and storm has FF atm (I guess EMP too, but that doesnt ever matter). And while we occasionally see a P storming his own zealots as the zealots are chasing as bio ball, the existance of FF or not on storm doesnt really seem to have much of an impact. So we're pretty much left with tanks. Tank FF on the other hand does very much limit the amount of "tanking" marines can do of zerglings, and its also plays a part in mechs non-viability against Ps due to how tanky chargelots are against tanks while forcing tanks to splash all over your bio or mech units.
So that kinda had me thinking about FF in a wider perspective. Is FF reasonable on tanks and storms? Should it be removed? Or should FF be added to other spells and abilities? Whats peoples thought on this?
Please dont make this a "HOW TO FIX ZERG" thread or anything. Try to look at it disregarding any current balance. Is more FF on abilities more fun to watch/more fun to play with/better for the game?
Poll: What do you think about the current amount of Friendly Fire?
Should be more friendly fire in the game (414)
72%
Its good as it is. Tanks and storm, no need for more/less. (133)
23%
Should be less/no friendly fire in the game (25)
4%
572 total votes
Your vote: What do you think about the current amount of Friendly Fire?
(Vote): Its good as it is. Tanks and storm, no need for more/less. (Vote): Should be less/no friendly fire in the game (Vote): Should be more friendly fire in the game
And in case of more FF, which units/abilities do you think should be deal friendly fire? Should everything deal FF (colossi, archons, fungal, banelings among others in addition to tanks and storm)? Or only spells (fungal, storm)? What about colossus since they have some similarities with tanks being long range ground weapons? Or fungal since they are somewhat similar to storm?
I think there should be more friendly fire in the game. A unit like the Colossus should definitely do friendly fire this would make it much more interesting. You would need to focus instead of just a-moving. Friendly Fires adds depth so we should not get rid of it for the sake of buffing the tank which is a different topic.
On December 23 2012 02:56 Propelled wrote: All AoE should be capable of friendly fire, with the only exception possibly being banelings on banelings.
Indeed, I don't know why it isn't currently. Design blunder?
I wouldn't call it a blunder, but a poor choice. They should either add FF to all races and balance the game around that, or not add it at all. But that is simply a design choice. Don't forget that most Zerg units (in WoL) have melee or very short range (except the hydra and air) - which would punish them a lot more with FF than Terran for example, who has mostly units with a lot of range.
On December 23 2012 02:56 Propelled wrote: All AoE should be capable of friendly fire, with the only exception possibly being banelings on banelings.
if banelings had friendly splash theyd kill more zerg units then enemy units...
Baneling splash should have fall-off damage, it currently deals the full 35 damage in its entire splash range, whereas all other splash sources other than Storm and Fungal have fall-off in their splash.
More friendly fire would be interesting to see, it could heavily affect how chain Fungal is used once the Zerg units start attacking the Fungaled units.
On December 23 2012 02:56 Propelled wrote: All AoE should be capable of friendly fire, with the only exception possibly being banelings on banelings.
if banelings had friendly splash theyd kill more zerg units then enemy units...
Baneling splash should have fall-off damage, it currently deals the full 35 damage in its entire splash range, whereas all other splash sources other than Storm and Fungal have fall-off in their splash.
More friendly fire would be interesting to see, it could heavily affect how chain Fungal is used once the Zerg units start attacking the Fungaled units.
Thats an interesting point about baneling splash actually. Never thought about that.
If we talk about friendly fire, how about fungal also affecting any hit zerg units, forcing the zerg to be much, much more precise with the spell and also giving more synergy to fungal with ranged units, while in HoTS Viper's Blinding Cloud, will have more synergy with melee units.
Friendly Fire is a flavorful, "legacy" addition to the game. I don't care either way and it's definitely not that relevant, with the exception of tanks vs zealots and kind of BLs
If they want to fix this game, they can do a billion things, starting with undo-ing the absurd patch they issued earlier this year.
On December 23 2012 03:15 n0ise wrote: Friendly Fire is a flavorful, "legacy" addition to the game. I don't care either way and it's definitely not that relevant, with the exception of tanks vs zealots and kind of BLs
If they want to fix this game, they can do a billion things, starting with undo-ing the absurd patch they issued earlier this year.
I'm pretty sure that if they removed friendly fire from tanks, storm and widow mines, the game would be much more different. No more dropping and throwing infested terrans on top of tanks, not caring about zealots while storming and amoving marines against zerglings with mines underground.
Tbh friendly fire would be quite severe to protoss and zerg, considering they use melee units. I would be somewhat fine with it on fungal, since storm has it too (Although zealots are way more capable of eating storms compared to zerglings and any aoe), but I don't think you should add it to colossus, banelings or archons. Colossus would kill zealots too fast, and protoss synergy would suffer severely, archons have too short range, so again, they'd kill zealots, and probably eachother too, banelings would be a complete mess.. You'd have to send them in one by one, and assuming the opponent has some sort of range, they wouldn't really be able to connect.. The least problematic of the changes would probably be archons. I have mixed feelings about fungal.
On December 23 2012 02:56 Propelled wrote: All AoE should be capable of friendly fire, with the only exception possibly being banelings on banelings.
if banelings had friendly splash theyd kill more zerg units then enemy units...
Baneling splash should have fall-off damage, it currently deals the full 35 damage in its entire splash range, whereas all other splash sources other than Storm and Fungal have fall-off in their splash.
More friendly fire would be interesting to see, it could heavily affect how chain Fungal is used once the Zerg units start attacking the Fungaled units.
The specific rules behind different types of splash are often there for balance/use reasons.
Fall-off damage is a tool for making an AoE effective at both single target damage and multiple target damage. Tanks do higher damage to their primary target than whatever is around it so that it can be effective at shooting one thing while not being overpowered while splashing others. Giving the Baneling or Storm fall-off damage without changing their primary damage would make them weak in general. Giving them fall-off damage while buffing their primary damage to compensate would make them effective at both single-target and splash damage, which is against their design. Banelings and Storm shouldn't be effective at taking out individual targets.
On December 23 2012 03:05 Baum wrote: I think there should be more friendly fire in the game. A unit like the Colossus should definitely do friendly fire this would make it much more interesting. You would need to focus instead of just a-moving. Friendly Fires adds depth so we should not get rid of it for the sake of buffing the tank which is a different topic.
you could make unites like collosus or banelings do liek 1/4 the dmg to friendly units they do to enemy units. If you made it the same, they would kill your own units too much. But partial dmg to friendly units could probably be balanced.
Ever since Wings of Liberty came out I've always considered this. Why does tanks have FF but Colossus don't? Their beam does count as AoE. Also Ultralisks too should have a slight friendly AoE. This could put zergs off maybe using ling/ultralisk and also nerf BL/Ultra slightly if the ultras were also hitting Brdlings and lings.
Units capable of Friendly Fire (including current):
Protoss Colossus High Templar (Storm) Archon Mothership (Vortex)
I think that's all of them. If I've missed one feel free to shout at me.
But my suggestion to Blizzard is. Of course if Friendly Fire capabilities were given to all of these units then game could potentially be at harm. But this idea will give players something extra to consider when taking a fight. Positioning potentially becomes more important in my opinion. Plus everyone loves to see a fight where nobody can tell you what will happen in the end. Be it a sudden nuke killing your whole army. Or a few siege tanks demolishing marines being harassed by lings. These are the types of things that can cause huge swings in engagements that viewers (myself at least) love to see. So my suggestion (getting back on topic) is, why don't Blizzard introduce FF into the units BUT cut the damage by lets say half or 3/4 of what a splash would normally do to an enemy. So the friendly fire is there. But it's not extremely damaging to the engagements but make them more realistic anyway.
On December 23 2012 03:20 Neino wrote: Tbh friendly fire would be quite severe to protoss and zerg, considering they use melee units. I would be somewhat fine with it on fungal, since storm has it too (Although zealots are way more capable of eating storms compared to zerglings and any aoe), but I don't think you should add it to colossus, banelings or archons. Colossus would kill zealots too fast, and protoss synergy would suffer severely, archons have too short range, so again, they'd kill zealots, and probably eachother too, banelings would be a complete mess.. You'd have to send them in one by one, and assuming the opponent has some sort of range, they wouldn't really be able to connect.. The least problematic of the changes would probably be archons. I have mixed feelings about fungal.
Of course we can't just add friendly fire to all those units without changing some things but look at the tank and all the interesting interactions that go on with it. If we can find ways to add that to other units it will make the game a lot more interesting. Adding friendly fire to the Collosus would definitely be doable balance wise.
Vortex has friendly fire, but it's to the advantage of the protoss. You could also say that forcefield has friendly fire. On the other hand, the oracle ability Time Warp does not follow suit. I don't know why, I think generally friendly fire makes an ability require more skill and allows for more counterplay by your opponent. Giving fungal growth friendly fire would not even make it noticeably weaker, but I'd still like it out of principle. Banelings are the primary example of a unit that could not work with friendly fire, so I'm okay with them lacking it. It's also remarkable that storm and emp date from brood war and kept their friendly fire. Fungal growth is new, although based on brood war abilities and lost its ff. Dark swarm was turned into pdd and also lost its ff. I guess dustin browder doesn't like ff too much.
Tanks have friendly fire because all Terran units are range attack, imagine Zealots and Zerglings dying so fast to friendly fire. I still think it can be done with fungals but Collosus would be challenging, I don't think the Reaver had friendly fire.
Vortex is only an advantage to protoss if you have archons. Also the friendly fire can be a fraction of damage to friendly units than it is to enemies. Easy to balance it imo.
On December 23 2012 03:46 biaxiong wrote: Tanks have friendly fire because all Terran units are range attack
... and those ranged units are attacked by melee units which get attacked by Tanks in their turn, resulting in splash damage being dealt to Terran units regardless of their ranged unit status.
Some units are good with it, some are less, but the current design is great, colossus wars are fixed already so they don't need this change, banelings with FF would be silly and every other units with splash this change would not matter much, only make them much worse, which is silly since they are not overpowered to begin with.
TL community just loves to jump up on every new thing like this that can "improve the game design", but at least this idea is really not good, the mechanic of FF is cool, but its not needed to have in full, having the current units have it is good.
I like the idea of fungal causing friendly fire. This will give zergs more to do during an engagement (micro fungals and lings in a way the lings do not get fungaled, but get into combat anyway, while the infestors also have targets that are not close to lings. Currently zerg has not enough micro potential.
People talking about Zerg and Protoss having melee units really need to consider the fact that those units move extremely fast (lings) or are extremely tanky (zealots). With charge, zealots become that much faster. On creep, lings are insane, (and given how much creep you see on TvZ, it will always be an issue). They are insane fast as it is with speed upgrade.
Marines might as well be melee when it comes to seige tank friendly fire.
Not going to lie, I find it incredibly annoying that I can hit myself with every single AoE attack I have while Protoss has only to worry about storms that don't even hurt them that bad and Zerg doesn't have to worry about anything at all.
On December 23 2012 03:09 h41fgod wrote: Colossus, fungal and tanks with friendly fire. Buff protoss as necessary.
colossus does full damage in a line. with 4-5 colossus (that do auto attack) the AI would oneshot 5 of your own zealots every cooldown. would be pretty fucking lame from an unit that has very emphasized weaknesses already. to make it balanced colossus would have to be redesigned intirely which wouldn't necessarily a bad thing but then it wouldn't be colossus. so this idea creates a whole lot other problems.
friendly firing autoattacking units of a race with melee core units would make ridiculous gameplay. btw i'm pretty sure neither lurker nor reaver did auto attack for the same reason, despite some guys saying it in the thread. tank friendly fire is only justified because of the huge damage, range and the terran units ability to deal damage while not taking ff (even if it requires a lot of micro)
friendly fire fungal would be a terrible idea. so would friendly fire banelings. it would make zerglings completely useless. fungal needs to bigger addressed, but not like that. that would be like hellions doing friendly fire. :-/
Friendly fire banelings wouldn't work because banelings explode when they die, unlike tank fire or storms or even a theoretical friendly fire fungal it's not a voluntary aoe it's simply something that exists as part of the unit. This means that they would be more a liability than an asset because the other player could snipe one in the middle of a group of ling/bling and blow up the entire army. I guess you could find a way around it by making them only do friendly fire when they offensively blow up or removing the explosion on death or doing any other thing but it really seems like it would cause more problems than it would be worth.
On December 23 2012 05:08 Xanbatou wrote: friendly fire fungal would be a terrible idea. so would friendly fire banelings. it would make zerglings completely useless. fungal needs to bigger addressed, but not like that. that would be like hellions doing friendly fire. :-/
For banelings a I agree. The banelings would kill each other in a chain reaction. For fungal I do not see the problem. You can still fungal before the lings arrive. Fungal units behind the front. Fungal units where only few lings are.
On December 23 2012 05:08 Xanbatou wrote: friendly fire fungal would be a terrible idea. so would friendly fire banelings. it would make zerglings completely useless. fungal needs to bigger addressed, but not like that. that would be like hellions doing friendly fire. :-/
I'm sure that most terrans would love to get hellions to do friendly fire if in exchange fungal did friendly fire...
Yeah interesting that Zerg is the only race without friendly fire which I found curious for a while. Would be nice to see if fungal would FF if that affects anything.
Not sure if its been mentioned but Hunter Seeker Missile also has Friendly Fire. the thing about Marine Tank is that you need to split Marines so your tanks deal minimum dmg to them & Zerglings cluster around the marine... so you need micro in the fight/before the fight as Terran.
On December 23 2012 05:08 Xanbatou wrote: friendly fire fungal would be a terrible idea. so would friendly fire banelings. it would make zerglings completely useless. fungal needs to bigger addressed, but not like that. that would be like hellions doing friendly fire. :-/
I'm sure that most terrans would love to get hellions to do friendly fire if in exchange fungal did friendly fire...
What does Fungal FF do in a TvZ match up ? it would Hit the Bio ball just like before, +some Zerglings IF the Zerg attacked with the Zerglings before the Fungal, so its in the Zergs very own jurisdiction if he Fungals his own Zergligns (wich doesnt matter that much if a few zerglings get hit while they are next to the Bio ball anyway).
Otherwise, wich I would like, you could fly Cloaked Banshees on top of Infestors, if the Z has no Overseers he needs to fungal his own Infestor ;D but that situation is pretty rare, isnt it?
On December 23 2012 05:08 Xanbatou wrote: friendly fire fungal would be a terrible idea. so would friendly fire banelings. it would make zerglings completely useless. fungal needs to bigger addressed, but not like that. that would be like hellions doing friendly fire. :-/
I'm sure that most terrans would love to get hellions to do friendly fire if in exchange fungal did friendly fire...
What does Fungal FF do in a TvZ match up ? it would Hit the Bio ball just like before, +some Zerglings IF the Zerg attacked with the Zerglings before the Fungal, so its in the Zergs very own jurisdiction if he Fungals his own Zergligns (wich doesnt matter that much if a few zerglings get hit while they are next to the Bio ball anyway).
Otherwise, wich I would like, you could fly Cloaked Banshees on top of Infestors, if the Z has no Overseers he needs to fungal his own Infestor ;D but that situation is pretty rare, isnt it?
Biggest effect I think would be if terran dropped units in the zerg mineral line. Zerg would have to kill all of his own workers to deal with the drop.
On December 23 2012 05:41 MCXD wrote: I'm pretty sure that the game would be need to be reworked in a big way to account for friendly fire.
Of course, but thats whats already happening in HotS :X When Brood War was added there werent that many changes, just some added units I believe ... hmmm...
On December 23 2012 05:08 Xanbatou wrote: friendly fire fungal would be a terrible idea. so would friendly fire banelings. it would make zerglings completely useless. fungal needs to bigger addressed, but not like that. that would be like hellions doing friendly fire. :-/
I'm sure that most terrans would love to get hellions to do friendly fire if in exchange fungal did friendly fire...
Wrong. Any terran with half a brain knows that hellions are already shitty enough. Having them do friendly fire would cause them to rape themselves, just like banelings with friendly fire. Horrible idea.
Fungal doing friendly fire is equally ridiculous. Any zerg terrible enough to miss fungals that badly doesn't deserve to be further handicapped by the spell hurting his/her own units.
The only WoL units that possibly should do friendly fire are colossi, but it's hard to know how much weaker that would make protoss against a lot of zerglings, zealots or how difficult it would make defending near your mineral lines. I would guess it would be much too impactful to protoss for Blizz to implement, which is why they didn't in the first place.
New friendly fire essentially means bringing in more splash into a game that might already have enough. Frankly, I think there's enough splash and the fact that the splash currently in the game can't really be made to do friendly fire proves how badly designed the unit interactions were from the get-go.
I think there are a lot more possibilities for friendly fire in HoTs. One cool semi-related idea which may be hard to implement would be to make the viper's abduct work kind of like Pudge's meat hook from Dota. It would make it really hard to use well but it would add a cool dynamic where the other players could try to block abducts with other units.
HAHAHAHAHA banelings friendly fire oh god hihihihihihihi :D
Fungal + Ultra + Bling + Mutalisk FF = *Genius* :D apply the same logic: in my opinion if range units clump up the bullets or projectiles should damage the units in front of them, aka marines in a bio ball should kill the rines in front of them.
On December 23 2012 06:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote: HAHAHAHAHA banelings friendly fire oh god hihihihihihihi :D
Fungal + Ultra + Bling FF = *Genius* :D apply the same logic: in my opinion if range units clump up the bullets or projectiles should damage the units in front of them, aka marines in a bio ball should kill the rines in front of them.
Conga line of banelings... can anyone say "GOURANGA!!"?
On December 23 2012 06:09 Ario wrote: I think there are a lot more possibilities for friendly fire in HoTs. One cool semi-related idea which may be hard to implement would be to make the viper's abduct work kind of like Pudge's meat hook from Dota. It would make it really hard to use well but it would add a cool dynamic where the other players could try to block abducts with other units.
That'd be really cool, but, theres really no opportunity to ever block. From a realistic standpoint, they're flying so ground units can't really block an attack from above unless you just kinda make it that way -- in which case grabbing anything from a gigantic ball would be impossible in the later game when vipers actually come out and see use.
On December 23 2012 06:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote: HAHAHAHAHA banelings friendly fire oh god hihihihihihihi :D
Fungal + Ultra + Bling FF = *Genius* :D apply the same logic: in my opinion if range units clump up the bullets or projectiles should damage the units in front of them, aka marines in a bio ball should kill the rines in front of them.
Conga line of banelings... can anyone say "GURANGA!!"?
I dont get it. Please explain, google didnt help
Edit: v hahaha I see. I did play those games but I cant remember much of it.
On December 23 2012 06:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote: HAHAHAHAHA banelings friendly fire oh god hihihihihihihi :D
Fungal + Ultra + Bling FF = *Genius* :D apply the same logic: in my opinion if range units clump up the bullets or projectiles should damage the units in front of them, aka marines in a bio ball should kill the rines in front of them.
Conga line of banelings... can anyone say "GURANGA!!"?
I dont get it. Please explain, google didnt help
Corrected spelling. "Gouranga" is from Grand Theft Auto. It happens when you run over these groups of 8 monks that walk in a line. Grand Theft Auto 2 used rows of Elvis impersonators and running them all over would make the game would go: "Elvis has left the building!" It implies that they all die. The entire row.
EDIT: Thanks for making me feel like a dinosaur, though.
On December 23 2012 05:08 Xanbatou wrote: friendly fire fungal would be a terrible idea. so would friendly fire banelings. it would make zerglings completely useless. fungal needs to bigger addressed, but not like that. that would be like hellions doing friendly fire. :-/
I'm sure that most terrans would love to get hellions to do friendly fire if in exchange fungal did friendly fire...
Really? Hellions friendly fire is almost as ridiciolous as banegling friendly fire, I can't imagine using helions in bigger numbers with friendy fire. Fungal on other hand is "manually targeted" ability so friendly fire here is more reasonable.
On December 23 2012 05:08 Xanbatou wrote: friendly fire fungal would be a terrible idea. so would friendly fire banelings. it would make zerglings completely useless. fungal needs to bigger addressed, but not like that. that would be like hellions doing friendly fire. :-/
I'm sure that most terrans would love to get hellions to do friendly fire if in exchange fungal did friendly fire...
Really? Hellions friendly fire is almost as ridiciolous as banegling friendly fire, I can't imagine using helions in bigger numbers with friendy fire. Fungal on other hand is "manually targeted" ability so friendly fire here is more reasonable.
Fungal requiring more skill is something most people would sacrifice an arm and a leg for. Hellion FF would be a lot less punishing compared to fungal FF.
On December 23 2012 06:09 Ario wrote: I think there are a lot more possibilities for friendly fire in HoTs. One cool semi-related idea which may be hard to implement would be to make the viper's abduct work kind of like Pudge's meat hook from Dota. It would make it really hard to use well but it would add a cool dynamic where the other players could try to block abducts with other units.
That'd be really cool, but, theres really no opportunity to ever block. From a realistic standpoint, they're flying so ground units can't really block an attack from above unless you just kinda make it that way -- in which case grabbing anything from a gigantic ball would be impossible in the later game when vipers actually come out and see use.
I agree, I'm not really sure how that could be implemented successfully. Right now though, abduct is too similar to fungal and FF in that there isn't really much you can do to stop the other player from abducting your units. It makes for really frustrating and boring play on the receiving player, cause all they can do is just watch their units die.
On December 23 2012 06:09 Ario wrote: I think there are a lot more possibilities for friendly fire in HoTs. One cool semi-related idea which may be hard to implement would be to make the viper's abduct work kind of like Pudge's meat hook from Dota. It would make it really hard to use well but it would add a cool dynamic where the other players could try to block abducts with other units.
That'd be really cool, but, theres really no opportunity to ever block. From a realistic standpoint, they're flying so ground units can't really block an attack from above unless you just kinda make it that way -- in which case grabbing anything from a gigantic ball would be impossible in the later game when vipers actually come out and see use.
I agree, I'm not really sure how that could be implemented successfully. Right now though, abduct is too similar to fungal and FF in that there isn't really much you can do to stop the other player from abducting your units. It makes for really frustrating and boring play on the receiving player, cause all they can do is just watch their units die.
The projectile thing makes it possible, but there's still the consideration that if your opponent already dodged the fungal, they've already punished you for badly aiming on the fungal. The front-end units that potentially get hit as a result are generally killed by the first volleys of WM, Tank, or Hellbat fire and adding the friendly fire wouldn't do very much, if anything at all.
Honestly having FF seems awful for most unite, people here just like it because it'd change up the game.
If collosus had FF it'd be so stale as any collosus play would be zealot free. Archos and ultra links, what? Army compositions would be so counter-intituative.
Keep the way it is, fungal FF I wouldn't mind however.
On December 23 2012 06:09 Ario wrote: I think there are a lot more possibilities for friendly fire in HoTs. One cool semi-related idea which may be hard to implement would be to make the viper's abduct work kind of like Pudge's meat hook from Dota. It would make it really hard to use well but it would add a cool dynamic where the other players could try to block abducts with other units.
That'd be really cool, but, theres really no opportunity to ever block. From a realistic standpoint, they're flying so ground units can't really block an attack from above unless you just kinda make it that way -- in which case grabbing anything from a gigantic ball would be impossible in the later game when vipers actually come out and see use.
I agree, I'm not really sure how that could be implemented successfully. Right now though, abduct is too similar to fungal and FF in that there isn't really much you can do to stop the other player from abducting your units. It makes for really frustrating and boring play on the receiving player, cause all they can do is just watch their units die.
The projectile thing makes it possible, but there's still the consideration that if your opponent already dodged the fungal, they've already punished you for badly aiming on the fungal. The front-end units that potentially get hit as a result are generally killed by the first volleys of WM, Tank, or Hellbat fire and adding the friendly fire wouldn't do very much, if anything at all.
Maybe give the viper abduct hook thing a health bar but a very low attack priority.
On December 23 2012 06:54 FiWiFaKi wrote: Honestly having FF seems awful for most unite, people here just like it because it'd change up the game.
If collosus had FF it'd be so stale as any collosus play would be zealot free. Archos and ultra links, what? Army compositions would be so counter-intituative.
Keep the way it is, fungal FF I wouldn't mind however.
If ultralisk had friendly fire and four ultras would attack a marine together. The marine would die but the ultras would cause about 400 friendly fire damage to each other.
On December 23 2012 03:03 Callynn wrote: Lurker did FF as well - which is why I don't get the decision to make the swarm host.
or didn't it lol.. I forgot -.-. Plague did for sure though.
If I remember correctly lurker did friendly fire to allies but not to self. So it would not necessarily be a wise choice in a 2v2 3v3 4v4 but in 1v1 it was always fine.
The Viper's cloud thing is "friendly fire" in the way that it affects your own units as well, but it doesn't deal damage. Honestly Zerg wouldn't work with friendly fire very well because of all there melee units. Banelings doing friendly fire would obviously be too terrible, fungal growth... maybe, but it would be a big nerf.
I wouldn't mind Zerg having some friendly fire, but maybe with a new units. It wouldn't work very well currently.
adding FF to any unit is a nerf; thus the unit or race deserves some other buff to be on par with its previous version. I like that, it increases the gap between a perfect engagement and a bad one.
would probably not be possible to implement in good way for archons though. blings colossus and fungal i however believe in making FF
Banelings friendly fire?? Do you guys even play this game? That would make them the worst unit in the game by far... Fungal friendly fire i agree, as long as colosus get friendly fire as well.
At this late stage in SC2's life, adding friendly fire to Zerg/Protoss AE units would probably be too difficult to balance. Caster AE friendly fire is acceptable, since the player has direct control over where the spell is cast, so don't see an issue with adding Fungal to that list.
Siege tank is a different story. It is the only unit that can be used against its own army. Good usage of Mule Drops and Infested Terran into tank lines can net kills with the cost of energy. A good strategy I've seen some pro Zerg players vs heavy tanked up defenses is to burrow infestors into range, toss a few infested terrans on tanks and/or clumped marines before the start of an engagement. The Zerg player gets free kills/damage from tank friendly fire and uses up the first volley to allow their army to close the gap with less losses.
Terrans also have to fight their own AI with good target micro. Otherwise tanks will always attempt to fire at the closest target with no regard to friendly fire. Wouldn't mind seeing what the game would look like without tank friendly fire, but I doubt Blizzard would change this fundamental weakness, it was inherited from its BW predecessor afterall.
Not all units should do friendly fire, because in some cases it simply removes any viability it might have. However, the fact that colossi are a ranged unit with an area of effect attack, yet can't be changed to deal friendly fire shows (imo) they are badly designed, because it's just mindless high damage output without any real drawbacks in positioning and such. Blizzard has to manually add counter units for the colossus, like the viking and the corruptor, because otherwise there's no reason not to have many of them in your army.
I think the most pressing issue here is the oracle's time warp spell. It creates a huge sphere on the battle field that mysteriously affects only enemy forces. I think it looks weird and unintuitive and it makes the spell more mindless in a way. I suppose a danger might be that it would make zealot armies not feasible to use in conjunction, but they could always let Charge cancel the effects of time warp, so it shouldn't be too big of a deal. I think it's simply that Blizzard wants spells that don't have drawbacks.
On December 23 2012 06:53 cekkmt wrote: All AoE should be friendly fire
Although Banelings shoudl get a relatively cheap upgrade at lair tech that makes other friendly banelings immune from the splash.
That wouldn't work. You can't have banelings killing your own zerglings, it would make them useless in TvZ and ZvZ ling-baneling wars would be completely retarded.
As for Fungal, the problem is not as much the damage as it is the root. You could not fungal battles between ranged units and ling-banelings without preventing most of them to attack while still being shot at by the enemy.
I'm all for a fungal change, just this one seems very bad.
Never really though about it, but FF on fungal makes perfect sense to me. If it is too much, perhaps the damage applies but not the root on friendly targets? Just an idea.
Except for FF on Fungal nothing seems to make sense to me...
and with FF on Fungal the only thing it would affect would be that lings would be useless to clean up fungled groups of units. no change for infestor/roach and almost no change for Blord infestor (oh no, a couple of broodlings won't auto attack before they die)
Anytime people talk about AOE in SC2. I keeping thinking to myself, the real topic is about that unit clumping.
Unit clumping is what has butchered the balancing of this game. Friendly fire is awesome, talking about mine drags in bw, or zealot bombs. But with unit clumping can you imagine fungal growth doing that...? Sounds to me like a balancing nightmare.
I have had posts previously question why the colossus doesn't do friendly fire...
Blizzard could do the entire community a favor and remove unit clumping from the game. Because units will still find chokes on maps to clump, for such opportune moments for massive AOE damage.
Imagine if unit clumping wasn't in the game.
Seige tanks wouldn't have been nerfed. EMP wouldn't have been nerfed. Storm wouldn't have been nerfed. Vortex wouldn't have been nerfed 3 times. Fungal growth wouldn't be getting a nerf. Colossus wouldn't be a huge annoyance.
FF on fungal would be GREAT. Would force zergs to be more careful in engaging rather than mass fungals
Edit: although clumping in sc2 due to its engine might make it crazy difficult. Still I like the idea.. FF in bw was insanely entertaining (reachhhhhhhh's manlots)
Like any drawback it's something that can add tactical depth or just limit how a unit is used. It all depends. Friendly fire is very compatible with Terran because T has no melee units, let alone a core mineral only melee unit like P and Z do. If the Reaver had friendly fired it probably would've just narrowed the unit's role without adding much depth, but then again the Reaver already had numerous drawbacks (apm and mineral drain, can't shoot down cliffs, can dud, slow).
I'll say this: SC2 probably needs more high power high drawback units. The drawback doesn't necessarily need to be friendly fire.
Marine bullets should do friendly fire if you fail to properly train your soldiers. Also if you leave your marines too close to the front line there's a chance they'll get spooked and open fire when someone nudges them from behind.
On December 23 2012 09:42 HollowLord wrote: Marine bullets should do friendly fire if you fail to properly train your soldiers. Also if you leave your marines too close to the front line there's a chance they'll get spooked and open fire when someone nudges them from behind.
Marines do friendly fire as you can target your own units.
On December 23 2012 09:42 HollowLord wrote: Marine bullets should do friendly fire if you fail to properly train your soldiers. Also if you leave your marines too close to the front line there's a chance they'll get spooked and open fire when someone nudges them from behind.
Marines do friendly fire as you can target your own units.
Nah but I mean like, if a marine walks in front of another marine while he's shootin some zergles.
As a Zerg player and almost masters I fell fungal should have ff. Only reason I can think otherwise is defendng drop play n mineral lines will be harder/demand you pull your drones. Maybe take ff off of all workers?
Archons w/ ff would kill zealot/archon. Zerglings with ultralisk ff... Maybe fungal. That is something i can see being in the game. Then you can't fungel ling runby's in your mineral line. Baneling ff would make ling bling micro impossibly hard. And siegetanks w/o would be too strong imo. But it seems unfair. Seeker missile also had ff i think. At least on teammates. I think someone said lurkers did ff? They didn't. If that was true stacked lurkers would kill each other. They did ff on teammates.
On December 23 2012 09:42 HollowLord wrote: Marine bullets should do friendly fire if you fail to properly train your soldiers. Also if you leave your marines too close to the front line there's a chance they'll get spooked and open fire when someone nudges them from behind.
Marines do friendly fire as you can target your own units.
Nah but I mean like, if a marine walks in front of another marine while he's shootin some zergles.
ok
sure, and all the lings or zealots when they try to surround a unit, kick each other out of their way and deal some damage to each other while scrambling to the opponent/target
oh wait neither of those are really applicable to this game.
On December 23 2012 09:42 HollowLord wrote: Marine bullets should do friendly fire if you fail to properly train your soldiers. Also if you leave your marines too close to the front line there's a chance they'll get spooked and open fire when someone nudges them from behind.
Marines do friendly fire as you can target your own units.
Nah but I mean like, if a marine walks in front of another marine while he's shootin some zergles.
ok
sure, and all the lings or zealots when they try to surround a unit, kick each other out of their way and deal some damage to each other while scrambling to the opponent/target
oh wait neither of those are really applicable to this game.
Friendly fire should, as always, be designed to fit the appropriate units and no more. Even in Broodwar, attacks like those of the Reaver and the Lurker did not do friendly fire, even though both really should have, given the type of damage inflicted by the Siege Tank and by Psionic Storm. They didn't because of balance reasons. Reavers would have become often extremely weak alongside the rest of the Protoss army due to the way a badly placed Scarab could do far more allied damage than enemy damage, and Speedling/Lurker would have been completely nonviable because the Lurkers would slaughter the Zerglings. SC2 is the same. Fungal honestly is never used in range of your own units, so having it deal friendly damage is kind of ridiculous. It wouldn't do anything in terms of balance. Colossus are an interesting question: would it increase skill if they dealt friendly damage, but had a higher damage output to make up for it? Siege Tanks would most likely be acceptable even without dealing friendly damage, and it would certainly make them stronger.
In any case, it's not about "more" or "less" friendly fire. It's about where it stands with each individual unit.
god this is what i was thinking today . with all frustrations is cause to play PVP for the simple fact you cant do many builds cuz 1 base colossi allin is pretty good vs most of expo builds . i was thinking . what if colossi would hit friendly fire ? imagine blink stalkers would blink into colossi and they would hit themselfs
I don't care if they make more things friendly fire, or if they remove psionic storm from FF, but siege tanks and nukes should definitely stay. The one thing that bothered me in SC1 is that reavers didn't have friendly fire. Those things were so damn strong. If you compare them to a baneling they're so ridiculous — scarabs shoot from like 8 range, were invincible and faster, cheap and didn't cost gas (although the reaver cost 4 banelings), and each one does 3–4x the damage vs light and 4–5x the damage vs non-light of a baneling. I understand protoss has DTs and zealots and archons (not even really applicable), but considering the power of the unit I don't think that should matter.
I don't think there's much dispute that most splash damge should do friendly damage (except banelings), so I'll talk about 2 related topics.
1. Personally I'm a fan of having siege tanks act like in Starcraft where there was a extremely small delay between the siege tank shot and the damage. The lack of this is what is what people call smart targeting. Also realize that they didn't remove that trait from [all] units in Starcraft 2, they removed it from the siege tank, but kept/introduced it to/for other units such as the roach and I think the hellion and colossus, but I don't remember exactly.
I also think that Hydralisk should very possibly lose it's projectile in favor of an instant attack, since it's a poor/underused unit (even in HOTS I'd say, although it's kinda mandatory vs protoss). It would make more sense to do it for roach (a close range non-projectile non-splash attack — why should it have a delay?), but it wouldn't change much and they don't really need a buff in damage. Marines and void rays don't have a delay, but while void rays make perfect sense being a beam attack and higher tier unit, I personally think marines could maybe also have a delay; with their fast rate of fire it won't affect things much, but makes marines less of a kill-all unit.
The reason why I liked this is because it made it important (or more important) to space out siege tanks instead of not thinking about it much or at all, as well as to even micro-manage siege tank firing more.
2. Another thing that would be good is adding an "attack ground" command (for splash damage units), which I think Warcraft 2 had. They might have intentionally kept it from subsequent games for some reason. Obviously cloak is the biggest problem with introducing this. While one could make cloak/burrowed immune to splash, that does make a considerable change to the game such as hellions or banelings intentionally or accidentally hitting cloaked/burrowed units via either attacking a visible enemy unit, or a friendly unit (neither applicable to baneling since it's the one unit in the game that does have "attack ground", although it's hardly an attack).
On December 23 2012 02:56 Propelled wrote: All AoE should be capable of friendly fire, with the only exception possibly being banelings on banelings.
Indeed, I don't know why it isn't currently. Design blunder?
I wouldn't call it a blunder, but a poor choice. They should either add FF to all races and balance the game around that, or not add it at all. But that is simply a design choice. Don't forget that most Zerg units (in WoL) have melee or very short range (except the hydra and air) - which would punish them a lot more with FF than Terran for example, who has mostly units with a lot of range.
Actually banelings really should friendly fire. Then they will be used much more carefully and there will be a lot more micro. Herp derp so many banelings is just really boring to watch.
On December 23 2012 21:29 fabiano wrote: If some people still didn't get it yet, here is the sad truth:
SC2 is clearly a game made to be easy, Blizzard will never implement things to make the game harder to play.
You will never see Blizzard patching a unit to make it harder to use, but you will definitely see them patching units to make them easier to use.
Hot about that HotS infestor? Seems harder to use alright. I agree that its unfair that only terran really suffer from friendly fire, but other than possibly making fungal do ff it would be extremely hard to balance it due to zerg and protoss' melee units.
i think fungal rooting but not damaging own units would be pretty good, collosus dealing friendly fire to own units should be implemented, wouldnt really change much though as collosus have better sync with stalkers most of the time rather than chargelots which are better with HT/archon. Tanks are fine the way they are assuming widow mines are in the picture
On December 23 2012 03:03 Callynn wrote: Lurker did FF as well - which is why I don't get the decision to make the swarm host.
or didn't it lol.. I forgot -.-. Plague did for sure though.
HoTS is not BW
So why is the Tank splash taken over from BW while the lurker (SH) aoe is not?
I am very much aware that HotS isn't BW >.>
On December 23 2012 03:05 Gladiator333 wrote:
On December 23 2012 02:56 Propelled wrote: All AoE should be capable of friendly fire, with the only exception possibly being banelings on banelings.
Indeed, I don't know why it isn't currently. Design blunder?
I wouldn't call it a blunder, but a poor choice. They should either add FF to all races and balance the game around that, or not add it at all. But that is simply a design choice. Don't forget that most Zerg units (in WoL) have melee or very short range (except the hydra and air) - which would punish them a lot more with FF than Terran for example, who has mostly units with a lot of range.
Actually banelings really should friendly fire. Then they will be used much more carefully and there will be a lot more micro. Herp derp so many banelings is just really boring to watch.
banelings doing friendly fire will make them less useful than reapers, only banelings in large numbers are effective, also banelings introduce micro already and nerfing them will make them almost unseen
it might just be me, but i dont thing making fungal friendly fire would make that big of a change. people usually fungal stalkers so they cant blink under broods, or on clumps or marines. usually, the two armies are never really close enough that fungal being friendly fire would really make that much of a difference.
I would freaking LOVE to see Banelings deal friendly fire. It only makes sense!
Edit: Guy above me inspired me to say that fungal friendly fire would be freaking awesome, especially now that it IS a projectile in HotS anyhow, so don't shoot it at your own guys! :D
On December 24 2012 00:58 JackReacher wrote: I would freaking LOVE to see Banelings deal friendly fire. It only makes sense!
Edit: Guy above me inspired me to say that fungal friendly fire would be freaking awesome, especially now that it IS a projectile in HotS anyhow, so don't shoot it at your own guys! :D
anyone that says banelings should do friendly fire isn't capable of critical thinking. banelings with friendly fire would cause a chain reaction that would kill all the banelings preventing them from even doing damage.
As you can see, all the ones in the second list have been introduced in Starcraft 2 and don't date to Brood War. In fact, in some cases an ability was clearly inspired by Brood War, yet lost its friendly fire. (dark swarm -> point defense drone, maelstrom -> fungal growth, spider mine -> widow mine)
Out of all of the new abilities, only seeker missile, blinding cloud, force field and vortex have friendly fire. Curiously, two of those abilities will be changed come Heart of the Swarm into abilities that lack friendly fire. The other abilities in the game that have friendly fire are iconic abilities from Brood War, where it would be difficult to remove this aspect. Nevertheless, siege tanks now have smart casting, which effectively reduces the danger of friendly fire.
On December 24 2012 02:19 Big-t wrote: Make Fungel FF plz^^
Well, it might make aaaaamazing fungal a little harder and probably bad if combines with zerglings. But as you apply it manually... I'm not sure if it would change a lot. Apart from giving zerg a coll "get out" move. Which is awesome! :-) (building 5Nydus networks is just too much setup for a taunt)
On December 24 2012 02:19 Big-t wrote: Make Fungel FF plz^^
Well, it might make aaaaamazing fungal a little harder and probably bad if combines with zerglings. But as you apply it manually... I'm not sure if it would change a lot. Apart from giving zerg a coll "get out" move. Which is awesome! :-) (building 5Nydus networks is just too much setup for a taunt)
I dunno about bad, it would mean fungal would be used on units to the rear and pre-engagement to hold things for the lings/blings to kill. I got the impression that was the original idea behind it before its damage output was uber-buffed. I don't see it making that much difference if you're not spamming the things randomly all over the fight but I'm in favour of it all the same.
I can't see how the Collosus could work with FF, I imagine it'd do more damage to the zealots than the enemy. It'll be like tanks only moreso as its usually going to be hitting most of the front line. Banelings even moreso, they'd have to have a 5 fold increase in damage output if they wipe each other out everytime one detonates :D But yeah, it doesn't make much sense that most AOE doesn't do FF.
-edit
On December 23 2012 20:44 Xapti wrote: 1. Personally I'm a fan of having siege tanks act like in Starcraft where there was a extremely small delay between the siege tank shot and the damage. The lack of this is what is what people call smart targeting. Also realize that they didn't remove that trait from [all] units in Starcraft 2, they removed it from the siege tank, but kept/introduced it to/for other units such as the roach and I think the hellion and colossus, but I don't remember exactly.
Yeah I've been thinking that, it's not that they've introduced some clever targeting AI, its just that they made the shell connect instantly after firing (and gave it a posh name to make it sound like a feature). I'd be in favour of a change back and a bit more damage to the tanks to compensate. Not too much mind as simply offsetting your tanks a bit all but counters the synchronised firing. But anything that adds that bit more depth to the micro is a good thing.
I haven't read the whole thread, but the point that giving FF to a unit makes its use harder. Yes, that's true and it is a problem because Blizzard needs to have the game fun and balanaced in low leagues - there is really no point in arguing against that, unless you bring a couple of milion to cover for lost income from loosing casuals, end of story.
On the other hand, this problem could, as it often happens, be turned into an advantage - the raw damage of said units could be made stronger in return. Whne done right, these two effect can compensate for low-level play (you kill more, but you lose more), yet it could remain balanced in high-level play (I have to protect my units, you have to split yours). And I believe that this is one of the things that high-level play actually needs - stronger splash to necessitate more micro and splitting. Wouldn't it really do what we always wanted - break the deathball?
On December 24 2012 03:47 opisska wrote: I haven't read the whole thread, but the point that giving FF to a unit makes its use harder. Yes, that's true and it is a problem because Blizzard needs to have the game fun and balanaced in low leagues - there is really no point in arguing against that, unless you bring a couple of milion to cover for lost income from loosing casuals, end of story.
On the other hand, this problem could, as it often happens, be turned into an advantage - the raw damage of said units could be made stronger in return. Whne done right, these two effect can compensate for low-level play (you kill more, but you lose more), yet it could remain balanced in high-level play (I have to protect my units, you have to split yours). And I believe that this is one of the things that high-level play actually needs - stronger splash to necessitate more micro and splitting. Wouldn't it really do what we always wanted - break the deathball?
how about making the whole thing league specific? like in lower leagues you don't have ff and in higher ones you do. this can be combined with other [difficulty rising] changes aswell, it would make the game more challenging for the real good players. then it also should be possible to turn on/off such specifications in custom games. so this way casual players can still enjoy their low standard play while the players seeking for challenge have something to work also. isn't that what blizzard wants?
I'll be honest, I never liked friendly fire in video games in general. Tank friendly fire onto their own units is great strategy wise, but if I had a say, I wouldn't have it in the game, and I'm not exactly one that likes terrans, and i know it would benefit them a lot to have it removed. I know it's there because without it i mean, it doesnt make much sense, you fire into a group, everything should get hit, not just their units while yours are magically unaffected, but in a game... not everything has to make sense!
I'm fine with whatever though, that's just my personal opinion that doesn't matter at all.
On December 24 2012 00:58 JackReacher wrote: I would freaking LOVE to see Banelings deal friendly fire. It only makes sense!
Edit: Guy above me inspired me to say that fungal friendly fire would be freaking awesome, especially now that it IS a projectile in HotS anyhow, so don't shoot it at your own guys! :D
Baneling friendly fire would instantly remove the unit from the game and make them more worthless then the reaper. Ask yourself: Why the hell would you make them if they can blow up your whole army? This is not like tankfire or storm which are ranged, this is a unit that rolls together with your army that does "meelee" damage.
On December 24 2012 00:58 JackReacher wrote: I would freaking LOVE to see Banelings deal friendly fire. It only makes sense!
Edit: Guy above me inspired me to say that fungal friendly fire would be freaking awesome, especially now that it IS a projectile in HotS anyhow, so don't shoot it at your own guys! :D
Baneling friendly fire would instantly remove the unit from the game and make them more worthless then the reaper. Ask yourself: Why the hell would you make them if they can blow up your whole army? This is not like tankfire or storm which are ranged, this is a unit that rolls together with your army that does "meelee" damage.
it would be perfect if banelings would do ff to your own army (the only exception: other banelings). i would love to see that, it would just need a little more micro skills because you had to split your banelings and the rest of the army. these are small things which differ good players from not so good ones and therefore it makes the game for interesting but no, blizz is probably going the "casual-way" like they did with their other horses, wow and diablo, too.
By the way, using "FF" as an abbreviation for "Friendly Fire" is sort of annoying because so many people are used to it being "Force Field". Not really a big deal, just was confusing for the first 3 times I saw it.
Anyway, tanks and friendly fire vs zerg is actually pretty stupid. Either make it so more things have a friendly fire mechanic (ultras splash damage, for instance?) or make tanks have an upgrade that removes/nullifies friendly fire. If you remember campaign (if you played it)... there was an upgrade you could get for tanks that made friendly fire much less. In fact, there were about 10 upgrades that would add a lot more depth and actually be good changes if Blizzard implemented them. More upgrades = more choices = better game.
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options: -Making FG a missile cast OR -FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness) -Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage) -Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades) -Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy -Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
On December 24 2012 08:45 KaiserCommander wrote: Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options: -Making FG a missile cast OR -FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness) -Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage) -Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades) -Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy -Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
Friendly fire banelings would literally break the game. Good luck fighting terran bio when you blow up half of your zerglings.
On December 24 2012 08:45 KaiserCommander wrote: Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options: -Making FG a missile cast OR -FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness) -Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage) -Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades) -Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy -Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
Friendly fire banelings would literally break the game. Good luck fighting terran bio when you blow up half of your zerglings.
Give reason and examples, Baneling have not a risk using it besides miss detonation, it will only change the matter that if you pair them with the speedling they'll with actually die; that's why more bulky Banes will compensate and paired with air/long range units will do better
On December 24 2012 08:45 KaiserCommander wrote: Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options: -Making FG a missile cast OR -FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness) -Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage) -Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades) -Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy -Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
Friendly fire banelings would literally break the game. Good luck fighting terran bio when you blow up half of your zerglings.
Give reason and examples, Baneling have not a risk using it besides miss detonation, it will only change the matter that if you pair them with the speedling they'll with actually die; that's why more bulky Banes will compensate and paired with air/long range units will do better
The reality is, You would surround the terran army with zerglings and then the banelings come in and after it hits 1 marine half your zerglings will die because they die in 1 hit to banelings. Thats ridiculous.
On December 24 2012 08:45 KaiserCommander wrote: Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options: -Making FG a missile cast OR -FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness) -Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage) -Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades) -Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy -Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
Friendly fire banelings would literally break the game. Good luck fighting terran bio when you blow up half of your zerglings.
Give reason and examples, Baneling have not a risk using it besides miss detonation, it will only change the matter that if you pair them with the speedling they'll with actually die; that's why more bulky Banes will compensate and paired with air/long range units will do better
The reality is, You would surround the terran army with zerglings and then the banelings come in and after it hits 1 marine half your zerglings will die because they die in 1 hit to banelings. Thats ridiculous.
So, you're using an "a+move" engagement to get your point? FF in banes will mean more brains using them and that will mean a more balanced attention distribution between attacking zerg and defending terran... Still not giving examples or scenarios, just random comments
On December 24 2012 08:45 KaiserCommander wrote: Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options: -Making FG a missile cast OR -FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness) -Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage) -Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades) -Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy -Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
Friendly fire banelings would literally break the game. Good luck fighting terran bio when you blow up half of your zerglings.
Give reason and examples, Baneling have not a risk using it besides miss detonation, it will only change the matter that if you pair them with the speedling they'll with actually die; that's why more bulky Banes will compensate and paired with air/long range units will do better
The reality is, You would surround the terran army with zerglings and then the banelings come in and after it hits 1 marine half your zerglings will die because they die in 1 hit to banelings. Thats ridiculous.
So, you're using an "a+move" engagement to get your point? FF in banes will mean more brains using them and that will mean a more balanced attention distribution between attacking zerg and defending terran... Still not giving examples or scenarios, just random comments
Are we talking say a tank target fire shoots a baneling clump in the middle and there is a chain reaction where all the banes blow up because the ones in the middle did and they friendly fired the other ones or what? Maybe this could work if you go bane - ranged units but making it so that speedlings cant pair with them is just ridiculous.
I honestly don't see why other races should get more FF. The game is about the completely unique races. Where would the fun be, if for example zerg and protoss health worked the same way as terran? (I.e. being able to repair, but not selfhealing)
On December 24 2012 08:45 KaiserCommander wrote: Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options: -Making FG a missile cast OR -FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness) -Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage) -Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades) -Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy -Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
Friendly fire banelings would literally break the game. Good luck fighting terran bio when you blow up half of your zerglings.
Give reason and examples, Baneling have not a risk using it besides miss detonation, it will only change the matter that if you pair them with the speedling they'll with actually die; that's why more bulky Banes will compensate and paired with air/long range units will do better
The reality is, You would surround the terran army with zerglings and then the banelings come in and after it hits 1 marine half your zerglings will die because they die in 1 hit to banelings. Thats ridiculous.
So, you're using an "a+move" engagement to get your point? FF in banes will mean more brains using them and that will mean a more balanced attention distribution between attacking zerg and defending terran... Still not giving examples or scenarios, just random comments
Then please, explain how with friendly fire they will be usefull at all? Solo groups will get sniped easely, put them in your army and they will blow it up. The only useful thing left is baneling mines.
On December 24 2012 08:45 KaiserCommander wrote: Personal metagame ideas:
FF on Colossi to force Protoss players to calculate the ground army-Colossi rate
FF on Baneling to force zerg player smarter and more tactical use of Banelings; they'll be forced to think in cost/benefit relation using them along with zerglings or creating micro cycles like "Baneling spread", this would stimulate the use of Mutalisk or even Hydras; this is coming with a Baneling health buff
FF on Fungal Growth to force zerg players to have punishment in reckless FG shots and changing FG mechanics to any of this options: -Making FG a missile cast OR -FG no more rooting units, instead slowing movement speed
In my opinion Archons must remain the same
Reviewing each race "big guy" ground unit (Colossus for Protoss, Thor for Terran and Ultralisk for Zerg) I notice a couple of things in my Terran biased mind:
-Thor have not possibilities of retreating for disadvantageous battles (Colossus have the climbing terran capability and Ultralisk have a ridiculous bulkyness) -Thor have not splash damage capabilities (Both Ultralisk and Colossus have splash damage) -Thor is the only unit with a nearly useless cost/benefit upgrade with 250mm Cannon (While Colossus gets Extended Thermal Lance and Ultralisk have Chtinous Plating, both considered mid/late game essential upgrades) -Thor is the only "big guy" unit with anti-air capabilities, however it's also the same "big guy" unit without relevant sinergy to another units to make that anti-air capabilities worthy -Thor have the lowest DPS
I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE THOR FULFILL THE SAME ROLES AS ULTRALISK OR COLOSSUS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THOR A SINERGIC USEFUL UNIT, so my ideas for the mighty Thor are...
-Make the Thor attack with a 3-5 linear splash damage to ground units along with a +1 range upgrade
OR
-Make the 250mm Cannon upgrade a 5x5 matrix AoE similar to the used by the Odin in the campaign (with obvious damage adjust to metagame)
I think those changes will clean some imbalance issues with recent patches...
Friendly fire banelings would literally break the game. Good luck fighting terran bio when you blow up half of your zerglings.
Give reason and examples, Baneling have not a risk using it besides miss detonation, it will only change the matter that if you pair them with the speedling they'll with actually die; that's why more bulky Banes will compensate and paired with air/long range units will do better
The reality is, You would surround the terran army with zerglings and then the banelings come in and after it hits 1 marine half your zerglings will die because they die in 1 hit to banelings. Thats ridiculous.
So, you're using an "a+move" engagement to get your point? FF in banes will mean more brains using them and that will mean a more balanced attention distribution between attacking zerg and defending terran... Still not giving examples or scenarios, just random comments
So you don't understand the difference between whole army a-move and "surround" with lings and then run in with banelings? Time to use your own brain, before telling others to do so...
just make banelings friendly fire WITH THE EXCEPTION it doesn't affect other banelings. so this way you have to take better care of your zerglings but banelings are still far from being useless.
On December 24 2012 09:54 Epx wrote: WAHT THE FUCK IS YOUR GUYS PROBLEM?!
just make banelings friendly fire WITH THE EXCEPTION it doesn't affect other banelings. so this way you have to take better care of your zerglings but banelings are still far from being useless.
Why do you yell this? That passionate about breaking the game, huh?
Like. Mutas glaive attacks would be dumb, hitting friendly mutas. And I will fly one corruptor into your medivacs and watch thors FF down all your medivacs. etc etc.
Also, what use will you have of hellions? One almost-ling-surround and the hellions will burn themself down. Or you come in with two rows of hellions (like 2-3-4 hellions into the mineral line), and the hellions in the back shoot down the front ones.
The current hunter seeker missile. You use it, I run my targeted unit closer to your units, and you're the one losing your army, not me.
Maybe make Baneling FF but at reduced damage to own units, otherwise it would be totally unbalanced. Maybe like 50% or 25% it could be even less. Maybe tanks could too make reduced damage to own units... or do they already?
On December 24 2012 09:54 Epx wrote: WAHT THE FUCK IS YOUR GUYS PROBLEM?!
just make banelings friendly fire WITH THE EXCEPTION it doesn't affect other banelings. so this way you have to take better care of your zerglings but banelings are still far from being useless.
Posting this again in case you have any answer at all before yelling your ass off: Then please, explain how with friendly fire they will be usefull at all? Solo groups will get sniped easely, put them in your army and they will blow it up. The only useful thing left is baneling mines.
Baneling friendly fire is stupid because of the way the unit is designed. I wouldn't mind seeing it do less splash damage depending on the radius though. Units like the collosi should do AOE just because they are currently low micro units and it would make what is traditionally an a-move unit into something that requires more skill to use much like a reaver.
Less friendly fire makes the game easier, which is obviously the design philosophy going from bw to star 2, don't really see why colossi, fungal, banes etc. don't do splash besides dumbing down the game. I would honestly not be shocked if blizzard is gonna remove more ff (tanks) from the game in lotv or even going into starcraft 3, I mean we want those casuals right?
On December 24 2012 10:52 Lorch wrote: Less friendly fire makes the game easier, which is obviously the design philosophy going from bw to star 2, don't really see why colossi, fungal, banes etc. don't do splash besides dumbing down the game. I would honestly not be shocked if blizzard is gonna remove more ff (tanks) from the game in lotv or even going into starcraft 3, I mean we want those casuals right?
Did Lurkers did FF? No they didn't cause they weren't designed to. Did Muta's in BW FF? No they didn't cause they weren't designed to. You cannot give units that were not designed to friendly fire since it would completely and utterly break them. Should have ranted against blizzard when they designed Starcraft 2. But suddenly 2year and a half later banelings suddenly need to do FF. This simply looks like just another knee jerk reaction to the current metagame where zerg is imbalanced. Just look at the OP...
On December 24 2012 10:52 Lorch wrote: Less friendly fire makes the game easier, which is obviously the design philosophy going from bw to star 2, don't really see why colossi, fungal, banes etc. don't do splash besides dumbing down the game. I would honestly not be shocked if blizzard is gonna remove more ff (tanks) from the game in lotv or even going into starcraft 3, I mean we want those casuals right?
For Archons, banelings and Ultras it's quite simple. It would be stupid. low range units that deal splash are bound to attack units of their own kind, no matter how well you can play. I guess, that's why the Archon and the mutalisk didn't have FF on their splash in BW either...
On December 24 2012 07:27 Blargh wrote: By the way, using "FF" as an abbreviation for "Friendly Fire" is sort of annoying because so many people are used to it being "Force Field". Not really a big deal, just was confusing for the first 3 times I saw it.
Anyway, tanks and friendly fire vs zerg is actually pretty stupid. Either make it so more things have a friendly fire mechanic (ultras splash damage, for instance?) or make tanks have an upgrade that removes/nullifies friendly fire. If you remember campaign (if you played it)... there was an upgrade you could get for tanks that made friendly fire much less. In fact, there were about 10 upgrades that would add a lot more depth and actually be good changes if Blizzard implemented them. More upgrades = more choices = better game.
I don't agree with that sentiment. Starcraft has always been relatively simple. Low numbers of units, upgrades and research but incredibly diverse and hard to play. Simply adding more upgrades into the game doesn't necessarily improve the game at all
Fungal should definitely be FF, because as it is now zerg can just click wherever, but with FF fungal it would take a lot more skill to not cripple your own army
I agree that fungal should have friendly fire, if it can fungal opponnent zergs then it should affect your own army. The friendly fire dynamic is really nice and should be implemented not only on units but maps should have similar things that can do damage to units. I expect Kespa to add such maps.
On December 23 2012 03:03 Callynn wrote: Lurker did FF as well - which is why I don't get the decision to make the swarm host.
or didn't it lol.. I forgot -.-. Plague did for sure though.
HoTS is not BW
So why is the Tank splash taken over from BW while the lurker (SH) aoe is not?
I am very much aware that HotS isn't BW >.>
On December 23 2012 03:05 Gladiator333 wrote:
On December 23 2012 02:56 Propelled wrote: All AoE should be capable of friendly fire, with the only exception possibly being banelings on banelings.
Indeed, I don't know why it isn't currently. Design blunder?
I wouldn't call it a blunder, but a poor choice. They should either add FF to all races and balance the game around that, or not add it at all. But that is simply a design choice. Don't forget that most Zerg units (in WoL) have melee or very short range (except the hydra and air) - which would punish them a lot more with FF than Terran for example, who has mostly units with a lot of range.
Actually banelings really should friendly fire. Then they will be used much more carefully and there will be a lot more micro. Herp derp so many banelings is just really boring to watch.
banelings doing friendly fire will make them less useful than reapers, only banelings in large numbers are effective, also banelings introduce micro already and nerfing them will make them almost unseen
Just make the banelings more powerful.
Infested Terrans in BW did friendly fire as well, and when there were neutral command centers they got used. Except they did about 1000x more damage than banelings for roughly the same cost.
Sources of Splash Damage without Friendly Fire: Units: Hellion, Thor (AA), Colossus, Archon, Baneling, Muta, Ultra Spells: Fungal Plan. Fort.
Sources of Splash Damage with Friendly Fire: Units: Siege Tank (Siege Mode) Spells: Storm, EMP, Nuke, HSM
I think that Blizzard's intent was that no unit's basic attack should do friendly fire, but rather only spells, so that you are consciously choosing to take the risk of damaging your own units, and not have them do it on their own. The one quasi-exception is the siege tank, and in this case you are accepting the risk by activating siege mode (just like activating a spell), and the unit was designed with this in mind. Even in BW (so far as I recall), the only sources of splash with friendly fire were spells, and not basic attacks (except sieged tanks and infested terrans).
Every spell with splash (except Fungal) also does friendly fire; Fungal probably doesn't because it would be too damaging to lings, especially with chain fungals (30 damage per fungal, 35 health on a ling, and before patch 1.3 it was 36 damage), whereas Zealots can tank Storms.
Wouldn't the remove of friendly fire essentially end the death ball? To reduce friendly fire one would likely spread their units more right? AKA YES PLZ!
Analyzing the splash attacks/spells and their friendly fire potential:
Colossus: Medium impact, because of the horizontal line which mostly hitting enemy lines perfectly to begin with. Biggest impact on Zealots and when Zerglings, ITs, Broodlings, Roaches close into the Protoss army. Archon: Big impact, would splash Zealots and other Archons. If fighting in melee range, it would splash itself. really stupid Baneling: Big impact. Chainreactions would kill all banelings if one died. The unit with its current stats would become completly useless. really stupid Infestor: Low to medium impact. If combined with a projectile (HotS) it might become extremely bad. With an instant fungal, it would mostly just mean that people had one more reason to aim very exactly. Might have some influence when combined with melee units that chase kiting opponents (zergling, baneling). Interesting in the light of wanting to nerf fungal. Mutalisk: Big impact. A Mutalisk would kill itself. probably really stupid Ultralisk: Big impact. Would splash other Ultralisks, Zerglings and Banelings and when in melee range (Ultras have 1range!) it would splash itself. really stupid Hellion: Big impact. Would kill itself faster than the units it should kill. really stupid Thor (anti air): Low impact. Would probably have the biggest impact when fighting Broodlords with Mech, as the corruptors could try to close in to draw friendly fire on the vikings. might be interesting, but seems completely unnecessary Planetary Fortress: Big impact. Would kill its mineral line or the SCVs repairing it and everything sourrounding it faster than the actual attacks. Would turn this building useless.really stupid
So yeah, all in all it seems like most of the units were designed not to have friendly fire. I guess it would be interesting to test on some units (Infestor, Colossus, Thor).
On December 24 2012 13:35 cydial wrote: Fungal being FF would be interesting.
Then again people like Browder and Kim balance this game based on arbitrary feelings and their own diamond league experience.
kim is in grandmasters, he balances.
browder is in plat, he designs.
you can do the math
Was going to say, I was sure at least one of the two was Masters if not GM. From a HOTS perspective adding FF to Fungal seems like a premature change with all the new updates to the Infestor. It seems like a rather unnecessary complication with a large transition and new/retunring influx of players in the next six months.
I was always confused as to why Colossus didn't do splash, but at this point I don't think that it would be doing balance any favors especially in PvP. Think of 10+ Colossi basically creating a death trap for chargelots and other ground units both dealing friendly damage.
Friendly fire on colossus would be interesting to say the least. It would certainly make immortal play in PvP more viable because the enemy colossus will help melt their own wall of chargelots so your immorts can start hitting the money units. It would also reduce the viability of a huge concave with a bunch of colossus because then instead of a line it's a parabola that arcs towards your own units. I'd love to test this one out.
Infestor fungal ff? Yes please. Maybe not even damage the units if it's too crippling, maybe just root friendly units without damaging them? Or maybe some upgrade that stops friendly units from being damaged. But I would loooove to see this one get implemented to mix up some strategies.
Thor I'm indifferent about, but then again it could open up things like corruptor bombs or something.
TL;DR - I would love to see Colossus and Fungal both have friendly fire to try and mix up PvZ which I have to admit is unbearable in its current state.
I've always thought of how psionic storm barely brushes charging zealots and archons with damage in PvX. I find it kind of unjust, because if storms barely do any damage, Protoss can just storm all over the place in hopes of hitting whatever race they're against without needing to worry about losing zealots to their own storms. Storms should be placed more carefully. So that's how I feel about friendly fire. Fungal friendly fire would analogically make sense too; Zergs would need to be more careful when placing them, and auto-fungals and auto-storms would actually be pretty entertaining to watch on a higher level, making the game more interesting.
Now that I think about it. I would like to see friendly fire on collossus. That unit has helped noobs win for long enough. Everything else should be the same though.
Fungal definitely needs FF. Given that hellions are used primarily to harass, I think FF on them could work. They would need a slight buff to compensate. i was under the impression colossi already did FF?
Friendly fire on Fungal Growth seems like it could be a good change, but it actual makes the problem worse. Okay, so Infestors now hit Broodlings. Great...
FG having FF would make Banelings worse and Zerglings less useful when used with Infestors. Basically, it wouldn't affect Infestor/Broodlord at all but would make Zergs use Banelings/Zerglings a lot less while just massing up more Infestors. Every game would be mass Infestors even more than it is already.
Fungal Growth needs to be changed, but friendly fire isn't the answer.
On December 25 2012 01:28 CrtBalorda wrote: Now that I think about it. I would like to see friendly fire on collossus. That unit has helped noobs win for long enough. Everything else should be the same though.
Yeah, great idea... Just wait till the zerg move burrowed roaches under Protoss army with 3-4 collossi and then watch the show I don't even know why this is discussed... Tanks do friendly fire because : a. All terran units are ranged b. The core Terran units are being healed c. There should be a trade off for the siege mode. Protoss and zerg units never did friendly fire and never will, because this will break the game. The only thing that can be considered are the spells... Fungle with friendly fire will be interesting, but I don't think that it will be really impactful. I mean... you don't fungle units when your lings are already over them. You fungle them so your lings and banelings can catch up and surround/kill. Even if you fungle surrounded units for the damage, usualy they are in one clump and the fungle will hit them and minimal amount of lings. In broodlord/infestor even if you fungle the broodlings nobody cares... Stalkers still can't blink, archons still can't move, broodlords still kill everything.
On December 25 2012 01:47 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Fungal definitely needs FF. Given that hellions are used primarily to harass, I think FF on them could work. They would need a slight buff to compensate. i was under the impression colossi already did FF?
I think friendly fire as is is fine and maybe the colossi could have some friendly fire as well but banes and infestors with friendly fire wouldn't be pretty to watch at all. I do dislike how broodlings cause the tank AI to autoattack them which in turn means that those several tanks which are meant for support will destroy your whole marine army and cause you to lose the game. If Blizzard went for guardian type of units for Broodlords, then aside from colossi, friendly fire is good enough in the game. Too much friendly fire might make the game worse and harder(harder is always good of course ).
On December 24 2012 10:04 Fusa wrote: you need hellions to kill their allies stuff like seige tanks.
only then you will see less, ling ling helion
This is so true. I know that most of the focus is on 1v1, but this is one of the ways how you can influence 2v2 without breaking 1v1.
After 2 years, it still feels weird, when I see my ally's helions and my zealtos don't die. Firebat allied fire was one of the biggest nightmares of my BW 2v2s and now it's gone for no reason. The same goes for Archoons.
this thread is gold... Kaisercommand, epx and others who fight for Banelings FF makes me laugh quite a lot :D
Who in their right mind would ever go bling ling if Blings did FF, unless they had~800 apm to spare (conclusion: nobody would ever use blings except for automaton 3000. )
On December 25 2012 00:35 Big J wrote: Analyzing the splash attacks/spells and their friendly fire potential:
Colossus: Medium impact, because of the horizontal line which mostly hitting enemy lines perfectly to begin with. Biggest impact on Zealots and when Zerglings, ITs, Broodlings, Roaches close into the Protoss army. Archon: Big impact, would splash Zealots and other Archons. If fighting in melee range, it would splash itself. really stupid Baneling: Big impact. Chainreactions would kill all banelings if one died. The unit with its current stats would become completly useless. really stupid Infestor: Low to medium impact. If combined with a projectile (HotS) it might become extremely bad. With an instant fungal, it would mostly just mean that people had one more reason to aim very exactly. Might have some influence when combined with melee units that chase kiting opponents (zergling, baneling). Interesting in the light of wanting to nerf fungal. Mutalisk: Big impact. A Mutalisk would kill itself. probably really stupid Ultralisk: Big impact. Would splash other Ultralisks, Zerglings and Banelings and when in melee range (Ultras have 1range!) it would splash itself. really stupid Hellion: Big impact. Would kill itself faster than the units it should kill. really stupid Thor (anti air): Low impact. Would probably have the biggest impact when fighting Broodlords with Mech, as the corruptors could try to close in to draw friendly fire on the vikings. might be interesting, but seems completely unnecessary Planetary Fortress: Big impact. Would kill its mineral line or the SCVs repairing it and everything sourrounding it faster than the actual attacks. Would turn this building useless.really stupid
So yeah, all in all it seems like most of the units were designed not to have friendly fire. I guess it would be interesting to test on some units (Infestor, Colossus, Thor).
That's you did above is how you analize a fact in a VERY VERY stupid and partial way...
Colossus.-ALL units tends to allign in concaves, FF could be considered due range and lack of intense micro of the unit.
Archon.- This unit never did and never will do FF due low range (and nobody seriously considered that option)
Baneling.- BW Infested Terran had THE EXACTLY SAME MECHANICS than this units and still did FF and was not broken, due beign part of the backbone of zerg army Banelings can have "baneling explosion inmunity" to preven banelings beign distroyed by another baneling still doing FF to another ground units...
Infestor.- Extremely needed, atack/defend rations broken by FG, I suggest along with FF the abolition of rooting the units, instead slowing them.
Mutalisk.- Mutalisk does not AoE "per se", it's glave wurm bound into 2 more targest, so Mutalisk is not included into possible FF units...
Ultralisk.- No actual problems with ultralisk now
Hellion, Thor, Planetary Fortress.- No problem with them, I suggested a re-work for Thor in previous posts...
EPT
