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On December 19 2012 22:33 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 22:17 madespecifically wrote:On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote:After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go: As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results: - Zerg: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 16 times
- Protoss: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times
- Terran: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 8 times
What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days. TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is Those stats must be rigged or chosen selectively so that balance doesn't seem as bad as it was/is. For a year zergs have been dominating tournaments, to the point where Scarlett could take games off MMA or other code S terrans. I have been actively following the pro scene and tournaments and I have barely seen a terran even make it to top 3, let alone win. Even if you show me stats telling that zerg hasn't been dominating both proscene and ladder, I wouldn't believe it. Balance was and still is heavily in zerg's favor. The gsl zvz finals, the bwc with 15 zergs out of 32 players, where did those tournaments go? People who were not following the proscene as actively as I did might believe that stuff, but not me. It doesn't explain why there are countless numbers of threads on TL and on BattleNet stating how imbalanced infestor brood lord is, how easily zergs reach late game, and how much more skill it takes to win with terran vs zerg than with zerg vs terran or protoss. I am not calling those stats presented bullshit, just incomplete, or selectively chosen. Anyone who follows the proscene in the recent year must know that those stats can't simply be correct. Do you know who Khaldor, the author of the OP, is?
I know Khaldor for a long time, from his wc3 days as a manager of 4k and mouz, and have been actively followig him. However, I can't agree with information which is simply not true or misguided. I have a brain on my own, I have watched all major tournaments this year, I play at masters/ gm level, zerg has been dominating, terran has been almost non existent. Look on TL and on BattleNet there are numerous threads stating why and how op zerg is, and there are numerous threads discussing the utter zerg dominance on almost any major tournament.
With all due respect to Khaldor, I can't accept the results he presents nor accept a statement that balance is or was fine. I have seen otherwise and I think any sane person following the scene will agree that zerg is and was dominating the proscene, hence starcraft was anything but balanced.
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On December 19 2012 22:32 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 21:53 Otolia wrote:On December 19 2012 20:23 Integra wrote:
Great, another thread that uses statistics without context which only relies on correlation without any proof of actual causation or how it is even linked to the correlation in question in the first place.
Guys, did you know, the amount of pirates has drastically decreased over the past centuries, did you also know that Global warming has increased? The less pirates we have the more global warming we will have, Correlation BABY!
Although you are right, there is way more linkage between balance and tournaments results than between pirates and global warming. You are making too sweeping general statements about this. You mean there exists a link between balance and tournaments performance which is true. My example still stands however since people are making up their own link or cause of how the statistics should be used just as I did in the example with the pirates, as in they aren't explaining the links or causes that actually behind the statistical data. It's just guess work.
Way to discard the second paragraph and disagree with me even though I was agreeing with you.
You don't like people arguing with you, do you ?
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On December 19 2012 16:54 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 16:46 Insoleet wrote:On December 19 2012 16:42 opterown wrote:
as i mentioned over there too, premier tournament wins are not exactly the best way to determine balance. why? you're looking at two players out of an entire player field, possibly 32 or even up to 72 players. in this case, what is more relevant is individual skill, not balance. for example, throw taeja in a pool of mediocre zergs and he will probably come first. but throw a bunch of mediocre terrans and mediocre zergs together and you will likely get a zvz final. you want to compare results from players of similar skill, not players who stand out. for example, you may look at IEM singapore and DH winter and say "oh look we had TvP finals" when the zergs who were at either tournament weren't top tier like the finalists. there were no korean zergs at DH and stephano/nerchio, skilled as they may be, are not as good as hero or taeja. the same thing applies for IEM - while there were quite a few zergs playing, they were all pretty mediocre. both zergs in the semifinals also lost by just one map too. these are just some examples that thread is stupid, but does it matter if i post there or not? i've read the thread. what i meant by posting over there too was directed at khaldor; i posted on reddit
Stephano and Nerchio are as skilled as Taeja and Hero ( in my opinion and many will agree ), they have similar results ( Stephano is the one who has the most out of the four ) you can think what you want though, but dont present it as a fact when it's not
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 19 2012 22:42 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 22:36 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On December 19 2012 22:33 [F_]aths wrote:On December 19 2012 22:17 madespecifically wrote:On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote:After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go: As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results: - Zerg: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 16 times
- Protoss: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times
- Terran: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 8 times
What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days. TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is Those stats must be rigged or chosen selectively so that balance doesn't seem as bad as it was/is. For a year zergs have been dominating tournaments, to the point where Scarlett could take games off MMA or other code S terrans. I have been actively following the pro scene and tournaments and I have barely seen a terran even make it to top 3, let alone win. Even if you show me stats telling that zerg hasn't been dominating both proscene and ladder, I wouldn't believe it. Balance was and still is heavily in zerg's favor. The gsl zvz finals, the bwc with 15 zergs out of 32 players, where did those tournaments go? People who were not following the proscene as actively as I did might believe that stuff, but not me. It doesn't explain why there are countless numbers of threads on TL and on BattleNet stating how imbalanced infestor brood lord is, how easily zergs reach late game, and how much more skill it takes to win with terran vs zerg than with zerg vs terran or protoss. I am not calling those stats presented bullshit, just incomplete, or selectively chosen. Anyone who follows the proscene in the recent year must know that those stats can't simply be correct. Do you know who Khaldor, the author of the OP, is? Yes, He's the guy that starts a topic then neglects to respond to any of the criticism except for the first 2 posts He is probably busy following the proscene. Also there is little substantial criticism in this thread.
i got plenty in first two pages
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On December 19 2012 22:45 RaelSan wrote:
Stephano and Nerchio are as skilled as Taeja and Hero
If a moving your army while pumping roaches/lings from 11 hatches is equivalent of stimming, splitting, dropping on 3 places at once, focus firing with tanks and just being an awesome micro god, yes, then Stephano is as skilled as Taeja.
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On December 19 2012 22:45 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 22:32 Integra wrote:On December 19 2012 21:53 Otolia wrote:On December 19 2012 20:23 Integra wrote:
Great, another thread that uses statistics without context which only relies on correlation without any proof of actual causation or how it is even linked to the correlation in question in the first place.
Guys, did you know, the amount of pirates has drastically decreased over the past centuries, did you also know that Global warming has increased? The less pirates we have the more global warming we will have, Correlation BABY!
Although you are right, there is way more linkage between balance and tournaments results than between pirates and global warming. You are making too sweeping general statements about this. You mean there exists a link between balance and tournaments performance which is true. My example still stands however since people are making up their own link or cause of how the statistics should be used just as I did in the example with the pirates, as in they aren't explaining the links or causes that actually behind the statistical data. It's just guess work. Way to discard the second paragraph and disagree with me even though I was agreeing with you. You don't like people arguing with you, do you ?
Like you said, we both agree, therefor I did not argue and instead simply filled you in on the parts which you did not understand. The second paragraph was fine, that's why I did not include it since that's fully possible as well.
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On December 19 2012 22:36 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 22:33 [F_]aths wrote:On December 19 2012 22:17 madespecifically wrote:On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote:After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go: As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results: - Zerg: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 16 times
- Protoss: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times
- Terran: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 8 times
What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days. TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is Those stats must be rigged or chosen selectively so that balance doesn't seem as bad as it was/is. For a year zergs have been dominating tournaments, to the point where Scarlett could take games off MMA or other code S terrans. I have been actively following the pro scene and tournaments and I have barely seen a terran even make it to top 3, let alone win. Even if you show me stats telling that zerg hasn't been dominating both proscene and ladder, I wouldn't believe it. Balance was and still is heavily in zerg's favor. The gsl zvz finals, the bwc with 15 zergs out of 32 players, where did those tournaments go? People who were not following the proscene as actively as I did might believe that stuff, but not me. It doesn't explain why there are countless numbers of threads on TL and on BattleNet stating how imbalanced infestor brood lord is, how easily zergs reach late game, and how much more skill it takes to win with terran vs zerg than with zerg vs terran or protoss. I am not calling those stats presented bullshit, just incomplete, or selectively chosen. Anyone who follows the proscene in the recent year must know that those stats can't simply be correct. Do you know who Khaldor, the author of the OP, is? Yes, He's the guy that starts a topic then neglects to respond to any of the criticism except for the first 2 posts
The guy who "neglects to answer posts" had to go to the GSL to cast the Blizzard Cup after he wrote his last post. Sorry I can't be at two places at once. I'm working on it, but it's not as easy as I thought
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On December 19 2012 22:51 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 22:45 RaelSan wrote:
Stephano and Nerchio are as skilled as Taeja and Hero If a moving your army while pumping roaches/lings from 11 hatches is equivalent of stimming, splitting, dropping on 3 places at once, focus firing with tanks and just being an awesome micro god, yes, then Stephano is as skilled as Taeja.
Jeez. Like it's all he's able to do?
Anyway, I agree with Kaldor on this subject, the game isn't perfect right now, but the situation isn't as bad as some people claim (whatever the stats) and it's certainly not as bad as it used to be, I remember the time where only Nestea was successful as a Zerg in the ZvT match up and people were claiming that the match up was balanced but just that terrans were just better player.
Furthermore, about balance of the game, people just complains about certains units (Sometimes without letting the metagames evolves like Muta in PvZ at early 2012, remember? ) and forgot that maps usually plays way more in the balance of a match up.
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On December 19 2012 22:55 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 22:36 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On December 19 2012 22:33 [F_]aths wrote:On December 19 2012 22:17 madespecifically wrote:On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote:After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go: As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results: - Zerg: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 16 times
- Protoss: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times
- Terran: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 8 times
What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days. TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is Those stats must be rigged or chosen selectively so that balance doesn't seem as bad as it was/is. For a year zergs have been dominating tournaments, to the point where Scarlett could take games off MMA or other code S terrans. I have been actively following the pro scene and tournaments and I have barely seen a terran even make it to top 3, let alone win. Even if you show me stats telling that zerg hasn't been dominating both proscene and ladder, I wouldn't believe it. Balance was and still is heavily in zerg's favor. The gsl zvz finals, the bwc with 15 zergs out of 32 players, where did those tournaments go? People who were not following the proscene as actively as I did might believe that stuff, but not me. It doesn't explain why there are countless numbers of threads on TL and on BattleNet stating how imbalanced infestor brood lord is, how easily zergs reach late game, and how much more skill it takes to win with terran vs zerg than with zerg vs terran or protoss. I am not calling those stats presented bullshit, just incomplete, or selectively chosen. Anyone who follows the proscene in the recent year must know that those stats can't simply be correct. Do you know who Khaldor, the author of the OP, is? Yes, He's the guy that starts a topic then neglects to respond to any of the criticism except for the first 2 posts The guy who "neglects to answer posts" had to go to the GSL to cast the Blizzard Cup after he wrote his last post. Sorry I can't be at two places at once. I'm working on it, but it's not as easy as I thought
You have much to learn from TotalBiscuit, young Khaldorwan  That man never fails to respond to a post that mentions his name.
+ Show Spoiler +Now waiting for TB to intentionally not respond to prove me wrong
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There's one thing that a lot of the posters in here don't seem to understand: I never said the game is balanced, on the contrary. I said it's not and that some things have to be changed. The whole issue is also more directed at the PvZ whining than anything else. Terran has been struggeling in the last 6 months.
The point here is that there is so much bitching going around that I was curious. One very common argument is that Protoss can't win any tournaments anymore. So I looked it up and found those stats. Of course they don't say anything about Protoss struggeling in the lategame and being "forced" to end the game early. But they show very clearly that Protoss has won quite a significant amount of Premier Tournaments and is quite able to perform well on the top level. That does NOT mean that the game is perfect as it is. But it definitely means that the current complaints are taking it too far.
And that's all that I've been saying here. Nothing else. Complain about certain aspects of the game: yes. Whining like little girls that have been spanked by their parents: no.
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I don't like the term Premier Tournament here. Can you compare an IEM to a MLG or an event like GSL or IPL where more than 80% of the very top players in the world are participating?
Of course not. Those just a little smaller tournaments are oftentimes dominated by the few(1-4) top players that participate. This makes the data you could take from the results there pretty useless. What can we take from a championship level GSL terran defeating 10 midtier european zergs in a row? Nothing!
Then we have the thing with the queenrangepatch in the middle of the year. I can't imagine any terran complaining about TvZ before that patch, the matchup was fine there and in a good spot. So why do you take data from before that point into account here, when you want to adress the current complains?
Addionally we have what opterown mentioned. There are many more factors that play into winning a tournament than balance and skill. To actually win a big tournament many things have to come together, hell even what you eat for breakfast and during the tournament plays a huge role and 39 might be a way to little samplesize to rule out those random factors.
So I must admit I'm a bit disappointed in this thread by you Khaldor, because this thread only seems to try the same thing you are critizing with it, you post some questionable statistics that may mislead people into assuming wrong things.
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On December 19 2012 22:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +Zerg: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 16 times
Protoss: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times
Terran: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 8 times While those numbers look relatively even, you need a much more elaborate analysis. Things like: -What tournaments are these? More prestigious cups and prize pools, location (Korea or foreign), how many people were in the tournament, how many players from each race entered in... these are all important. -What's the breakdown per quarter year? If one race won all their tournaments in the past three months and nothing beforehand, that's far different than if every race has won the same number of tournaments every quarter. We also need to take patches into consideration. -Which players, and how many players from each race, won these tournaments? If, for example, only 3 Korean players were responsible for every 1st and 2nd place Zerg title this year, whereas there were a much larger number of Terran and Protoss finalists (including both Koreans and foreigners), then those differences indicate something important to us.
Exactly what I thought when I first read the OP. I think I'm gonna have to start breaking down some numbers.
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On December 19 2012 23:01 TeeTS wrote:
So I must admit I'm a bit disappointed in this thread by you Khaldor, because this thread only seems to try the same thing you are critizing with it, you post some questionable statistics that may mislead people into assuming wrong things.
I'm disappointed that people like you (and belive me, you are not alone in this) don't even get what point I'm trying to make. You guys are arguing things that have nothing to do with what I said. I bet half of the posters in here didn't even read the first post I made.
But I kinda gave up already. It's pointless in this community to try to reason an argument without people instantly drifting to a completely different topic. The tweets alone that I got are a joke and nothing else. People quoting random "facts" or numbers that are simple falsifications or plain lies. At the same time I'm trying over and over again to come back to my original point only to see it ignored in the post following mine.
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Russian Federation15 Posts
They dont call em patch zergs for nothing.
same stats, but didvided by a patch
before queen range buff
1 places T/Z/P- 8/2/2
2 places T/Z/P- 4/5/3
after
1 places T/Z/P- 5/11/11
2 places T/Z/P- 4/11/12
Thats the real story of a balance
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On December 19 2012 23:07 Optimus_13 wrote:
They dont call em patch zergs for nothing.
same stats, but didvided by a patch
before queen range buff
1 places T/Z/P- 8/2/2
2 places T/Z/P- 4/5/3
after
1 places T/Z/P- 5/11/11
2 places T/Z/P- 4/11/12
Thats the real story of a balance
Who are the patch protosses then? -.-' lol
I think you misunderstand the difference between "what a patch is supposed to do" and "blah blah blah PATCHZERG blah blah blah!!"
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On December 19 2012 23:07 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 23:01 TeeTS wrote:
So I must admit I'm a bit disappointed in this thread by you Khaldor, because this thread only seems to try the same thing you are critizing with it, you post some questionable statistics that may mislead people into assuming wrong things. I'm disappointed that people like you (and belive me, you are not alone in this) don't even get what point I'm trying to make. You guys are arguing things that have nothing to do with what I said. I bet half of the posters in here didn't even read the first post I made. But I kinda gave up already. It's pointless in this community to try to reason an argument without people instantly drifting to a completely different topic. The tweets alone that I got are a joke and nothing else. People quoting random "facts" or numbers that are simple falsifications or plain lies. At the same time I'm trying over and over again to come back to my original point only to see it ignored in the post following mine.
I agree with that, the Starcraft Community is way too much whinny about balance, even when I play on ladder I get insulted at the begining of the game just because I play Zerg, even though balance has nothing to do with winrate on ladder game. 
Optimus_13 : So your point is that when terran won 8 tournament while Zerg and protoss just 2, the game was more balanced? ^^
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Last post sum's it up. The game has changed during the course of 2012, so balance should ideally only be taken from the current patch.
Edit: Post by Optimus_13 is what i'm referring to.
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On December 19 2012 23:07 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 23:01 TeeTS wrote:
So I must admit I'm a bit disappointed in this thread by you Khaldor, because this thread only seems to try the same thing you are critizing with it, you post some questionable statistics that may mislead people into assuming wrong things. I'm disappointed that people like you (and belive me, you are not alone in this) don't even get what point I'm trying to make. You guys are arguing things that have nothing to do with what I said. I bet half of the posters in here didn't even read the first post I made. But I kinda gave up already. It's pointless in this community to try to reason an argument without people instantly drifting to a completely different topic. The tweets alone that I got are a joke and nothing else. People quoting random "facts" or numbers that are simple falsifications or plain lies. At the same time I'm trying over and over again to come back to my original point only to see it ignored in the post following mine.
I totally get your point and I think you are right there. Especially because if we look at the GSL and the current Blizzard Cup we have, these zerg players owning the competition are really good and by no means patch zergs.
The thing I'm not liking here are the stats you use to back up your point. These stats are quite misleading and people liking stats might read your thread halfway through and then think, "hey terran has the same wins like zerg, so it's totally fine now" and there is no need for a change. The stats you are reffering to have major weakpoints which makes them way more useless than plain winratios, which should be taken with caution too!
I like that you want to be educational here, but this thread may achieve the opposite which is disappointing.
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On December 19 2012 23:07 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 23:01 TeeTS wrote:
So I must admit I'm a bit disappointed in this thread by you Khaldor, because this thread only seems to try the same thing you are critizing with it, you post some questionable statistics that may mislead people into assuming wrong things. I'm disappointed that people like you (and belive me, you are not alone in this) don't even get what point I'm trying to make. You guys are arguing things that have nothing to do with what I said. I bet half of the posters in here didn't even read the first post I made. But I kinda gave up already. It's pointless in this community to try to reason an argument without people instantly drifting to a completely different topic. The tweets alone that I got are a joke and nothing else. People quoting random "facts" or numbers that are simple falsifications or plain lies. At the same time I'm trying over and over again to come back to my original point only to see it ignored in the post following mine.
Khaldor if you wanted to convince people of something then statistics is not the right way to do it. Just look at past statistics threads on TL.Net, what exactly made you think people would go "He is right, look at those numbers!" when practically every previous statistics thread only made people more clearly declare what side they were on regarding the topic in question instead of convincing that they were "wrong" on on their original assessment.
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Russian Federation15 Posts
On December 19 2012 23:20 Vanadiel wrote:
Optimus_13 : So your point is that when terran won 8 tournament while Zerg and protoss just 2, the game was more balanced? ^^
No my point is that at the moment zergs>terrans notning more
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EPT
