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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 19 2012 19:42 opterown wrote: i suggest not paying much attention to minor/major tournaments since those lists are not updated very regularly and are often inconsistent For minor tournaments maybe still results which are updated are probably accurate i quess. | ||
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Tankz123
Denmark228 Posts
On December 19 2012 19:50 Cereb wrote: Khaldor: Look at these numbers guys - maybe we could calm down the balance complaining abit? Community: Lemmie ****ing tell you why these numbers are completely useless and why it's okay for me to complain all the time. Then proceeds to talk about balance and problems with the game... T_T Nice try Khaldor! <3 To be honest, the numbers are useless, unless blizzards design philosophy involves "buffing certain races at certain time to achieve "perfect balance" in major winning tournaments. if that's the case (pretty much the same they did with WoW), the game is doomed. | ||
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thuracine
United States582 Posts
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
Guys, did you know, the amount of pirates has drastically decreased over the past centuries, did you also know that Global warming has increased? The less pirates we have the more global warming we will have, Correlation BABY! | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
kind of strange you of all people would ask the community to stop complaining about balance. you should want the infestor dealt with, too, really. and maybe -1 fungal range will do the trick, but of course only lots of time and data will tell that story | ||
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
On December 19 2012 18:09 MilesTeg wrote: No one cares about facts anymore. We've let people feel like they're entitled to whine way too much. People just live in a fantasy world at this point. There's this idea that everything a Terran does is so insanely difficult, Terran players are so good...They should win every game really. And Zergs? All they do is a-move. Fungal is basically like a-moving anyway. Mutas? That's not real harassment. It's easy, zerg harassment. Splitting (NOT broodlords) , force fields, this is the only micro that counts. Never mind that it's actually probably easier to harass than it is to defend harassment;Terran players are better because they drop stuff. Even when they lose they're better. Fortunately if you just get off the Internet you realize that people are usually not as retarded as the vocal minority that infested starcraft would make you think. Pretty much this. It seems like there are no legitimate wins or losses anymore. Everyone make so many excuses. It's a joke. | ||
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Destroyr
Germany299 Posts
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AlternativeEgo
Sweden17309 Posts
People tend to dislike the mass infestors and what it does to the zerg match-ups, and we get to see a lot of those these days. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On December 19 2012 19:39 n0ise wrote: Go play ladder as T at a decently high level on any ladder and - take an economic/army/whatever advantage against T and see how it plays out - take an economic/army/whatever advantage against P and see how it plays out - take an economic/army/whatever advantage against Z and enjoy only being barely behind. Or watch high level terrans stream. People lose from 1-2 bases up. I won't disagree with the fact that, hypothetically, on a 14 hour/day practice scenario, the best korean terran playing flawlessly can have a perfectly even game vs the best Z. Anything below perfection for the Terran just gets punished too easily. I respect you a lot, but you're just wrong on this one. People don't echo thoughts off twitter, they state their own thoughts after playing/following the game. They get frustrated. Blizzard, while probably focused on HoTS just ignores this matter, so naturally, people will get angry and even more vocal. I agree with saying that 'it's not as bad as some make it to be' - at the same time, it also doesn't help pretending that Z doesn't have serious 'issues' at the moment. I think it's hilarious how everyone in this thread keeps proving Khaldor right. The community does indeed feature a lot of people who are prone to gross exaggerations. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On December 19 2012 20:23 Integra wrote: Great, another thread that uses statistics without context which only relies on correlation without any proof of actual causation or how it is even linked to the correlation in question in the first place. Guys, did you know, the amount of pirates has drastically decreased over the past centuries, did you also know that Global warming has increased? The less pirates we have the more global warming we will have, Correlation BABY! Pretty much. From reddit: Sorry, Khaldor but basing it off this is not a good idea, considering people weren't crying about balance pre queen patch. Results in premier tournaments since Queen Patch - Zerg: 1st 10 times, 2nd 11 times Protoss: 1st 11 times, 2nd 11 times Terran: 1st 5 times, 2nd 4 times Now this seems pretty good for protoss/zerg, and awful for terran, and not to mention that quite a few of the protoss ones were things like WCS, which the playerbase was chosen before zergs started dominating, WCG where CombatEx was in the Ro8 and the Dreamhack Summer with 2-3 koreans, aswell as the start of the sentry/immortal all in. As for terrans, their first win came at MLG Summer Arena won by TaeJa. Even though there were a lot of zergs, TaeJa only faced Losira and won 2-1. Asus ROG, another tournament won by TaeJa, he didn't play a single zerg and there was only 8 of them in a 32 player tournament. Dreamhack Valencia won again by TaeJa, he defeated 3 zergs, but the only notable one is Stephano 2-1 in a non elimination match, and other 2 EU zergs. IEM Cologne won by Mvp, it was the first sighting of the hellion/banshee opener and caught the EU zergs with their pants down, not to mention Mvp vs eu zergs? he should be winning most of the time. And at last, IEM Singapore with a very weak overall playerbase, and still there was no terrans in the tournament, but luckily 2 qualified via the open bracket. Also, while the results are not as imbalanced as all the whine would have you think, the gameplay is fucking atrocious in any Zerg matchup. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On December 19 2012 20:23 Integra wrote: Great, another thread that uses statistics without context which only relies on correlation without any proof of actual causation or how it is even linked to the correlation in question in the first place. Guys, did you know, the amount of pirates has drastically decreased over the past centuries, did you also know that Global warming has increased? The less pirates we have the more global warming we will have, Correlation BABY! Although you are right, there is way more linkage between balance and tournaments results than between pirates and global warming. The thing you should have pointed out was that balance isn't necessarily the main factor into one's win of a major tournament but rather that its direct consequence, the meta-game, is what influences results. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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madespecifically
39 Posts
On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote: After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go: As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results:
What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days. TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is Those stats must be rigged or chosen selectively so that balance doesn't seem as bad as it was/is. For a year zergs have been dominating tournaments, to the point where Scarlett could take games off MMA or other code S terrans. I have been actively following the pro scene and tournaments and I have barely seen a terran even make it to top 3, let alone win. Even if you show me stats telling that zerg hasn't been dominating both proscene and ladder, I wouldn't believe it. Balance was and still is heavily in zerg's favor. The gsl zvz finals, the bwc with 15 zergs out of 32 players, where did those tournaments go? People who were not following the proscene as actively as I did might believe that stuff, but not me. It doesn't explain why there are countless numbers of threads on TL and on BattleNet stating how imbalanced infestor brood lord is, how easily zergs reach late game, and how much more skill it takes to win with terran vs zerg than with zerg vs terran or protoss. I am not calling those stats presented bullshit, just incomplete, or selectively chosen. Anyone who follows the proscene in the recent year must know that those stats can't simply be correct. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On December 19 2012 21:53 Otolia wrote: Although you are right, there is way more linkage between balance and tournaments results than between pirates and global warming. You are making too sweeping general statements about this. You mean there exists a link between balance and tournaments performance which is true. My example still stands however since people are making up their own link or cause of how the statistics should be used just as I did in the example with the pirates, as in they aren't explaining the links or causes that actually behind the statistical data. It's just guess work. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 19 2012 22:17 madespecifically wrote: Those stats must be rigged or chosen selectively so that balance doesn't seem as bad as it was/is. For a year zergs have been dominating tournaments, to the point where Scarlett could take games off MMA or other code S terrans. I have been actively following the pro scene and tournaments and I have barely seen a terran even make it to top 3, let alone win. Even if you show me stats telling that zerg hasn't been dominating both proscene and ladder, I wouldn't believe it. Balance was and still is heavily in zerg's favor. The gsl zvz finals, the bwc with 15 zergs out of 32 players, where did those tournaments go? People who were not following the proscene as actively as I did might believe that stuff, but not me. It doesn't explain why there are countless numbers of threads on TL and on BattleNet stating how imbalanced infestor brood lord is, how easily zergs reach late game, and how much more skill it takes to win with terran vs zerg than with zerg vs terran or protoss. I am not calling those stats presented bullshit, just incomplete, or selectively chosen. Anyone who follows the proscene in the recent year must know that those stats can't simply be correct. Do you know who Khaldor, the author of the OP, is? | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
On December 19 2012 22:33 [F_]aths wrote: Do you know who Khaldor, the author of the OP, is? Yes, He's the guy that starts a topic then neglects to respond to any of the criticism except for the first 2 posts | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46200 Posts
Zerg: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 16 times Protoss: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times Terran: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 8 times While those numbers look relatively even, you need a much more elaborate analysis. Things like: -What tournaments are these? More prestigious cups and prize pools, location (Korea or foreign), how many people were in the tournament, how many players from each race entered in... these are all important. -What's the breakdown per quarter year? If one race won all their tournaments in the past three months and nothing beforehand, that's far different than if every race has won the same number of tournaments every quarter. We also need to take patches into consideration. -Which players, and how many players from each race, won these tournaments? If, for example, only 3 Korean players were responsible for every 1st and 2nd place Zerg title this year, whereas there were a much larger number of Terran and Protoss finalists (including both Koreans and foreigners), then those differences indicate something important to us. | ||
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Zergofobic
Macedonia50 Posts
Or is it? Have you been contacted by David Kim and have you heard of patchzerg conspiracy? | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 19 2012 22:36 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Yes, He's the guy that starts a topic then neglects to respond to any of the criticism except for the first 2 posts He is probably busy following the proscene. Also there is little substantial criticism in this thread. | ||
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