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StarCraft 2 Balance - Premier Cupresults in 2012 - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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StavrosHL
Profile Joined December 2010
Greece128 Posts
December 19 2012 08:17 GMT
#21
counting top places for the whole 2012 without taking into consideration the balance patches is totally meaningless.
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
December 19 2012 08:18 GMT
#22
Unfortunately, there is something called "weight" which you did not consider. If you want to do statistical analysis, you must consider the associated weights. Otherwise, the conclusion is fault.


On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote:
After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go:

As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results:
  • Zerg: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 16 times
  • Protoss: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times
  • Terran: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times

What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days.

TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is

We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
NeWeNiyaLord
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Norway2474 Posts
December 19 2012 08:18 GMT
#23
I agree with you Khaldor, but one issue related to balance I can think of is that Mid to late game the game is not balanced.
Many of the tournament wins you sampled ended in the first minutes of the game.

If you ask any of the top tier players it seems that if you don't end the game quickly(as any race other than zerg) Your going to have a harder time winning. Which isn't balance. It's clearly a balance issue late-game at the moment. I can admit that other races are winning tournaments as-well. But games should be a even graph until the game ends. And currently that's not the case.
This is where we begin. Show your true self, Battosai.
bearhug
Profile Joined September 2010
United States999 Posts
December 19 2012 08:19 GMT
#24
On December 19 2012 17:17 StavrosHL wrote:
counting top places for the whole 2012 without taking into consideration the balance patches is totally meaningless.


Agree. And it does not tell what the CURRENT balance looks like.
We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it.
gylka
Profile Joined January 2012
Ukraine50 Posts
December 19 2012 08:19 GMT
#25
On December 19 2012 17:00 Khaldor wrote:
We are looking at an entire year here.

Whats the reason to look at the entire year if at early 2012 and at late 2012 (after infestor patch and ghost nerf) it was different games (absolute different balance)? You can collect statistics only on period of time when no balance changes are made (better starting after month or two after patch when people figure out how to play with that changes) and judge on that.
Roughly speaking its juggling with facts.

If you can find a terran winning major tournament last couple month - you're lucky, make a wish... but you know better that it didnt happen.
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
December 19 2012 08:21 GMT
#26
one more point i suppose is that even though liquipedia tries to be the definitive source, even with "premier" tournaments there are clearly different tiers of "premiership". for example, IPL5, GSL, etc stand out and are much larger and have better players than the IEMs and smaller dreamhacks, for example. several of the terran wins are at those smaller tournaments e.g.
IEM singapore
DH valencia
IEM cologne
ASUS ROG
Summer Arena
DH stockholm

are all fairly "lower tier" premier tournaments compared to the MLG championships and IPLs, WCSs and GSLs etc. The last major premier win was by aLive and that was in april :p
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
December 19 2012 08:27 GMT
#27
I don't agree with looking at winners and runners up as anything significant in balance discussions.

More important is the racial distribution for each round and racial success rate per round. Even if a P wins first place, it's more telling of balance if every player in the Ro8 except for one is of one race. >.>
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Gimmeurladderpoints
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany372 Posts
December 19 2012 08:30 GMT
#28
WHile i's true that the balance whine got out of hand lately, opterown is right. Premier tounraments are not = Permier tournaments. And those with the most stacked pool (IPL, GSL) have been dominated by Zerg now, while Protoss is doing not that great, and terran is doing horrendously bad. Also you have to consider, that the zerg domination really got out of hand in the second half of 2012. So the state of the game is actually worse, than these stats make it out to be.
Look at the blizzard cup. (which you and wolf are casting, so I don't have to tell you that ) Look at all the foreign zergs who are suddenly nearly on korean level.

Thank you for looking those stats up though.
~Ryung~Genius~Bomber~Nestea~Liquid_Jinro~Sage~San~jjakji~Boxer~Fantasy~Polt~
Yello
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany7411 Posts
December 19 2012 08:31 GMT
#29
Nice try at calming down the balance whiners... but it doesn't work like this. Balance whiners don't care about statistics, much less so about meaningless statistics like this.
Just ahead of time, know your addiction's not a crime. It's just a smaller part of who you want to become in the end.
Hiea
Profile Joined March 2012
Denmark1538 Posts
December 19 2012 08:32 GMT
#30
Hey Khaldor I posted this on reddit and I really think you should add it to your OP

Results in premier tournaments since Queen Patch -
Zerg: 1st 10 times, 2nd 11 times
Protoss: 1st 11 times, 2nd 11 times
Terran: 1st 5 times, 2nd 4 times

Since otherwise it will be the same problem, 80% of the post will be people saying the results include before any whining started.
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-19 08:39:40
December 19 2012 08:38 GMT
#31
These numbers don't really help determine anything. Over the course of the last year, there's been many balance patches. If each race is really overpowered 1/3rd of the time, the year is going to have good results on the whole. The fact that Zerg was much weaker at the start of the year says nothing about their strength now, although these numbers try to make it.

For this information to be useful, we'd have to break it down by patch, month, or quarter.

Edit: looks like someone did right above me:

On December 19 2012 17:32 Hiea wrote:
Hey Khaldor I posted this on reddit and I really think you should add it to your OP

Results in premier tournaments since Queen Patch -
Zerg: 1st 10 times, 2nd 11 times
Protoss: 1st 11 times, 2nd 11 times
Terran: 1st 5 times, 2nd 4 times

Since otherwise it will be the same problem, 80% of the post will be people saying the results include before any whining started.


This is my point.
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
gylka
Profile Joined January 2012
Ukraine50 Posts
December 19 2012 08:38 GMT
#32
Whats the point figuring out is some tournament is major or not? It was different games during this year, and now even patch zerg Idra started to win some games last months...

User was warned for this post
WhiteSatin
Profile Joined December 2012
United States308 Posts
December 19 2012 08:43 GMT
#33
First/Second/Third place winnings are not enough, there's a ton of other factors as someone else pointed out, so taken just like that can be misleading.. those stats are nice on the appearance but definitely not something to refer to when mentioning balance
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-19 08:45:42
December 19 2012 08:45 GMT
#34
see, the funny thing with such a low stat pool is that:
zerg: 45% winrate in finals
protoss: 46% winrate in finals
terran: 62% winrate in finals

+ Show Spoiler +
obviously terran is the strongest race, right?


haha, which sort of shows my point :p these stats don't mean all that much for the greater balance picture.
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
tokinho
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States789 Posts
December 19 2012 08:51 GMT
#35
On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote:
After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go:

As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results:
  • Zerg: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 16 times
  • Protoss: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times
  • Terran: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 8 times

What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days.

TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is


Khaldor,
I have several problems with this.

Basically you say don't qq, but the reason for this is that we feel like its falling on deaf ears. Like when you casted the GSTL at IPL4 and people were shouting we want lan. They added this in HOTS.

The biggest problem that i have is how many people are not interested in the game anymore from zerg imbalance. Fundamentally, I don't feel like subscribing to the GSL right now when every tournament is infestor broodlord corruptor. I think that has to be the number one driver of the game. Money. Money talks. I think that the reason why you should not say things like this is that your livelihood depends on blizzard fixing this. I have long argued that adding 1 food supply cost for infestors and brood lords would basically fix the game. Zergs could still do a spine drop to get higher than 200 supply.

Tournaments try to add certain maps to make other races more viable. Most tournaments use ohana now just to give toss a chance. I hate watching PvZ on ohana. Its just aweful.

I'm surprised that you are supporting balance right now more than anyone else. Match win rates are way more important that tournament wins. I think your argument is weak. The question I have is how many people are still going to watch starcraft or play hots if they are not confident in the leadership. Money talks, don't forget that.

In the GSL the players with the highest match winrates are
1. Life, sniper DRG, leenock, hyun for individuals.
2. sniper, yonghwa, symbol, Leenock, JYP for the team games.

How many fight clubs did hyun win?

I want to see creator, squirtle, parting, supernova, marineking, MVP, rain, seed, Yonghwa, Major, have a fighting chance in the future. I don't feel like blizzard is part of the community any more for being so passive about this for so long.
Beyond One's Grasp
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
December 19 2012 08:54 GMT
#36
On December 19 2012 17:45 opterown wrote:
see, the funny thing with such a low stat pool is that:
zerg: 45% winrate in finals
protoss: 46% winrate in finals
terran: 62% winrate in finals

+ Show Spoiler +
obviously terran is the strongest race, right?


haha, which sort of shows my point :p these stats don't mean all that much for the greater balance picture.


Mvp only has a 66% win ratio in tournament finals, so it's not even Mvp's fault terran are so strong in finals
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
December 19 2012 08:54 GMT
#37
On December 19 2012 17:51 tokinho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote:
After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go:

As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results:
  • Zerg: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 16 times
  • Protoss: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times
  • Terran: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 8 times

What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days.

TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is


Khaldor,
I have several problems with this.

Basically you say don't qq, but the reason for this is that we feel like its falling on deaf ears. Like when you casted the GSTL at IPL4 and people were shouting we want lan. They added this in HOTS.

The biggest problem that i have is how many people are not interested in the game anymore from zerg imbalance. Fundamentally, I don't feel like subscribing to the GSL right now when every tournament is infestor broodlord corruptor. I think that has to be the number one driver of the game. Money. Money talks. I think that the reason why you should not say things like this is that your livelihood depends on blizzard fixing this. I have long argued that adding 1 food supply cost for infestors and brood lords would basically fix the game. Zergs could still do a spine drop to get higher than 200 supply.

Tournaments try to add certain maps to make other races more viable. Most tournaments use ohana now just to give toss a chance. I hate watching PvZ on ohana. Its just aweful.

I'm surprised that you are supporting balance right now more than anyone else. Match win rates are way more important that tournament wins. I think your argument is weak. The question I have is how many people are still going to watch starcraft or play hots if they are not confident in the leadership. Money talks, don't forget that.

In the GSL the players with the highest match winrates are
1. Life, sniper DRG, leenock, hyun for individuals.
2. sniper, yonghwa, symbol, Leenock, JYP for the team games.

How many fight clubs did hyun win?

I want to see creator, squirtle, parting, supernova, marineking, MVP, rain, seed, Yonghwa, Major, have a fighting chance in the future. I don't feel like blizzard is part of the community any more for being so passive about this for so long.


No they didn't...?
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
thuracine
Profile Joined February 2012
United States582 Posts
December 19 2012 09:00 GMT
#38
Mayans where right, terran died in 2012
KrazyTrumpet
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2520 Posts
December 19 2012 09:03 GMT
#39
Posted a similar response in the reddit thread:

I agree with you that maybe it's not as imbalanced as people make it out to be. However, as a spectator, Wings of Liberty is currently 100% awful to watch except for TvT or TvP. PvP can be interesting sometimes, and it's slowly been getting better. However, every matchup involving a Zerg is just disgusting and frustrating to watch.

THAT is where most of the complaining is coming from, really. When you have ENTIRE god damn matchups dominated by a single unit (infestor) it just makes things completely horrible to watch, and will (rightly so) spark balance discussion.

I'd be interested to know how many non Zerg tournament champions have A) Been against a Zerg player and B) Were as a result of the non Zerg competitor winning more than 1 long term macro game.
www.twitch.tv/krazy Best Stream Quality NA @KClarkSC2
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
December 19 2012 09:04 GMT
#40
On December 19 2012 18:03 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I agree with you that maybe it's not as imbalanced as people make it out to be. However, as a spectator, Wings of Liberty is currently 100% awful to watch except for TvT or TvP. PvP can be interesting sometimes, and it's slowly been getting better. However, every matchup involving a Zerg is just disgusting and frustrating to watch.

i actually think zvz is really fun to watch these days lol. it's not bad, give it a try :p
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
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