EPTStarCraft 2 Balance - Premier Cupresults in 2012 - Page 2
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StavrosHL
Greece128 Posts
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bearhug
United States999 Posts
On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote: After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go: As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results:
What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days. TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
Many of the tournament wins you sampled ended in the first minutes of the game. If you ask any of the top tier players it seems that if you don't end the game quickly(as any race other than zerg) Your going to have a harder time winning. Which isn't balance. It's clearly a balance issue late-game at the moment. I can admit that other races are winning tournaments as-well. But games should be a even graph until the game ends. And currently that's not the case. | ||
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bearhug
United States999 Posts
On December 19 2012 17:17 StavrosHL wrote: counting top places for the whole 2012 without taking into consideration the balance patches is totally meaningless. Agree. And it does not tell what the CURRENT balance looks like. | ||
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gylka
Ukraine50 Posts
On December 19 2012 17:00 Khaldor wrote: We are looking at an entire year here. Whats the reason to look at the entire year if at early 2012 and at late 2012 (after infestor patch and ghost nerf) it was different games (absolute different balance)? You can collect statistics only on period of time when no balance changes are made (better starting after month or two after patch when people figure out how to play with that changes) and judge on that. Roughly speaking its juggling with facts. If you can find a terran winning major tournament last couple month - you're lucky, make a wish... but you know better that it didnt happen. | ||
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
IEM singapore DH valencia IEM cologne ASUS ROG Summer Arena DH stockholm are all fairly "lower tier" premier tournaments compared to the MLG championships and IPLs, WCSs and GSLs etc. The last major premier win was by aLive and that was in april :p | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
More important is the racial distribution for each round and racial success rate per round. Even if a P wins first place, it's more telling of balance if every player in the Ro8 except for one is of one race. >.> | ||
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Gimmeurladderpoints
Germany372 Posts
Look at the blizzard cup. (which you and wolf are casting, so I don't have to tell you that  ) Look at all the foreign zergs who are suddenly nearly on korean level. Thank you for looking those stats up though. | ||
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Yello
Germany7411 Posts
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Hiea
Denmark1538 Posts
Results in premier tournaments since Queen Patch - Zerg: 1st 10 times, 2nd 11 times Protoss: 1st 11 times, 2nd 11 times Terran: 1st 5 times, 2nd 4 times Since otherwise it will be the same problem, 80% of the post will be people saying the results include before any whining started. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
For this information to be useful, we'd have to break it down by patch, month, or quarter. Edit: looks like someone did right above me: On December 19 2012 17:32 Hiea wrote: Hey Khaldor I posted this on reddit and I really think you should add it to your OP Results in premier tournaments since Queen Patch - Zerg: 1st 10 times, 2nd 11 times Protoss: 1st 11 times, 2nd 11 times Terran: 1st 5 times, 2nd 4 times Since otherwise it will be the same problem, 80% of the post will be people saying the results include before any whining started. This is my point. | ||
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gylka
Ukraine50 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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WhiteSatin
United States308 Posts
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
zerg: 45% winrate in finals protoss: 46% winrate in finals terran: 62% winrate in finals + Show Spoiler + obviously terran is the strongest race, right? haha, which sort of shows my point :p these stats don't mean all that much for the greater balance picture. | ||
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tokinho
United States792 Posts
On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote: After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go: As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results:
What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days. TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is Khaldor, I have several problems with this. Basically you say don't qq, but the reason for this is that we feel like its falling on deaf ears. Like when you casted the GSTL at IPL4 and people were shouting we want lan. They added this in HOTS. The biggest problem that i have is how many people are not interested in the game anymore from zerg imbalance. Fundamentally, I don't feel like subscribing to the GSL right now when every tournament is infestor broodlord corruptor. I think that has to be the number one driver of the game. Money. Money talks. I think that the reason why you should not say things like this is that your livelihood depends on blizzard fixing this. I have long argued that adding 1 food supply cost for infestors and brood lords would basically fix the game. Zergs could still do a spine drop to get higher than 200 supply. Tournaments try to add certain maps to make other races more viable. Most tournaments use ohana now just to give toss a chance. I hate watching PvZ on ohana. Its just aweful. I'm surprised that you are supporting balance right now more than anyone else. Match win rates are way more important that tournament wins. I think your argument is weak. The question I have is how many people are still going to watch starcraft or play hots if they are not confident in the leadership. Money talks, don't forget that. In the GSL the players with the highest match winrates are 1. Life, sniper DRG, leenock, hyun for individuals. 2. sniper, yonghwa, symbol, Leenock, JYP for the team games. How many fight clubs did hyun win? I want to see creator, squirtle, parting, supernova, marineking, MVP, rain, seed, Yonghwa, Major, have a fighting chance in the future. I don't feel like blizzard is part of the community any more for being so passive about this for so long. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On December 19 2012 17:45 opterown wrote: see, the funny thing with such a low stat pool is that: zerg: 45% winrate in finals protoss: 46% winrate in finals terran: 62% winrate in finals + Show Spoiler + obviously terran is the strongest race, right? haha, which sort of shows my point :p these stats don't mean all that much for the greater balance picture. Mvp only has a 66% win ratio in tournament finals, so it's not even Mvp's fault terran are so strong in finals  | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On December 19 2012 17:51 tokinho wrote: Khaldor, I have several problems with this. Basically you say don't qq, but the reason for this is that we feel like its falling on deaf ears. Like when you casted the GSTL at IPL4 and people were shouting we want lan. They added this in HOTS. The biggest problem that i have is how many people are not interested in the game anymore from zerg imbalance. Fundamentally, I don't feel like subscribing to the GSL right now when every tournament is infestor broodlord corruptor. I think that has to be the number one driver of the game. Money. Money talks. I think that the reason why you should not say things like this is that your livelihood depends on blizzard fixing this. I have long argued that adding 1 food supply cost for infestors and brood lords would basically fix the game. Zergs could still do a spine drop to get higher than 200 supply. Tournaments try to add certain maps to make other races more viable. Most tournaments use ohana now just to give toss a chance. I hate watching PvZ on ohana. Its just aweful. I'm surprised that you are supporting balance right now more than anyone else. Match win rates are way more important that tournament wins. I think your argument is weak. The question I have is how many people are still going to watch starcraft or play hots if they are not confident in the leadership. Money talks, don't forget that. In the GSL the players with the highest match winrates are 1. Life, sniper DRG, leenock, hyun for individuals. 2. sniper, yonghwa, symbol, Leenock, JYP for the team games. How many fight clubs did hyun win? I want to see creator, squirtle, parting, supernova, marineking, MVP, rain, seed, Yonghwa, Major, have a fighting chance in the future. I don't feel like blizzard is part of the community any more for being so passive about this for so long. No they didn't...? | ||
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thuracine
United States582 Posts
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
I agree with you that maybe it's not as imbalanced as people make it out to be. However, as a spectator, Wings of Liberty is currently 100% awful to watch except for TvT or TvP. PvP can be interesting sometimes, and it's slowly been getting better. However, every matchup involving a Zerg is just disgusting and frustrating to watch. THAT is where most of the complaining is coming from, really. When you have ENTIRE god damn matchups dominated by a single unit (infestor) it just makes things completely horrible to watch, and will (rightly so) spark balance discussion. I'd be interested to know how many non Zerg tournament champions have A) Been against a Zerg player and B) Were as a result of the non Zerg competitor winning more than 1 long term macro game. | ||
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 19 2012 18:03 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I agree with you that maybe it's not as imbalanced as people make it out to be. However, as a spectator, Wings of Liberty is currently 100% awful to watch except for TvT or TvP. PvP can be interesting sometimes, and it's slowly been getting better. However, every matchup involving a Zerg is just disgusting and frustrating to watch. i actually think zvz is really fun to watch these days lol. it's not bad, give it a try :p | ||
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