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On December 19 2012 23:20 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 23:07 Khaldor wrote:On December 19 2012 23:01 TeeTS wrote:
So I must admit I'm a bit disappointed in this thread by you Khaldor, because this thread only seems to try the same thing you are critizing with it, you post some questionable statistics that may mislead people into assuming wrong things. I'm disappointed that people like you (and belive me, you are not alone in this) don't even get what point I'm trying to make. You guys are arguing things that have nothing to do with what I said. I bet half of the posters in here didn't even read the first post I made. But I kinda gave up already. It's pointless in this community to try to reason an argument without people instantly drifting to a completely different topic. The tweets alone that I got are a joke and nothing else. People quoting random "facts" or numbers that are simple falsifications or plain lies. At the same time I'm trying over and over again to come back to my original point only to see it ignored in the post following mine. I agree with that, the Starcraft Community is way too much whinny about balance, even when I play on ladder I get insulted at the begining of the game just because I play Zerg, even though balance has nothing to do with winrate on ladder game. 
I hear you, but that is not really a problem of balancewhine, its a much more general problem with douchiness on ladder. I play terran in diamond and 9 out of 10 wins ends up with the opponent telling me to fuck my mother, go die or similar, all because I have the indecency of winning a macrogame (I never write anything except glhf and gg).
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On December 19 2012 23:00 Khaldor wrote:
There's one thing that a lot of the posters in here don't seem to understand: I never said the game is balanced, on the contrary. I said it's not and that some things have to be changed. The whole issue is also more directed at the PvZ whining than anything else. Terran has been struggeling in the last 6 months.
The point here is that there is so much bitching going around that I was curious. One very common argument is that Protoss can't win any tournaments anymore. So I looked it up and found those stats. Of course they don't say anything about Protoss struggeling in the lategame and being "forced" to end the game early. But they show very clearly that Protoss has won quite a significant amount of Premier Tournaments and is quite able to perform well on the top level. That does NOT mean that the game is perfect as it is. But it definitely means that the current complaints are taking it too far.
And that's all that I've been saying here. Nothing else. Complain about certain aspects of the game: yes. Whining like little girls that have been spanked by their parents: no.
I was about to write a dickish post about you, then I realised wtf - it's Khaldor! I feel ashamed now 
I love you broham, and this post is much more reasonable than your OP - at any rate, it expresses your point more clearly.
I'm a T, and even if the win ratios would be dead even 50-50, the matchup STILL feels completely miserable - you always feel behind in eco, you always feel like you have to push, you need to stretch everything to the limit to maintain a semblance of map control, and at all points you know you're on a ticking time-bomb.
Win ratios which, anyway, are nowhere near even, and this including ridiculous 16h16p no scout against 11/11 which make up for a consistent amount of terran wins... and, obviously, shouldn't
But you talk mainly about ZvP, and that I can't say much about - but from people's posts, I'm not sure if the story is much brighter - it's true however that, at points, P players haven't done bad for themselves either.
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What was the motivation of making this thread? To pretend like there isn't an obvious imbalance/issues with the game? It's quite easy to lie with statistics and pretend something is something else when it's not.
If you want more telling results, look at the top 16 finishes of a lot of the tournaments in the last 8 months as well as these provided by dvorak on reddit:
dvorak posted on reddit:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being David Kim Sparkles and 10 being IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA how do you rate the Grand Finals of the 8 most recent big-name Premier events:
WCS Asia - PvP
WCS Word - PvP
WCG - PvP
DreamHack Winter - PvT
DreamHack Bucharest - ZvZ
GSL Season 5 - ZvZ
MLG Fall - ZvZ
IGN Season 5 - ZvZ"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see, despite what you tried to make out to be a balanced stat sheet in the OP, that's not how the game actually is. Nor are results anywhere near indicative of balance or the current metagame. Sure, they can be a quick reference, but they don't tell even 1% of the story.
Starcraft's viewership has steadily declined (regardless of what optimistic fanbois and paid casters will tell you) because of the gameplay stagnating into infestor broodlord every game with Zerg, 2 base immortal allins to fight Zerg from Protoss, and Terrans becoming non-existent.
There is a real problem with the game, and any attempt to falsify that or create a fantasy world in which there is no problem is not going to help this game's lifetime run any longer. Instead what it will do is slowly cause more and more people to leave SC2 like they have in recent months because they are not stupid as spectators and got tired of bland, low depth gameplay.
Instead of trying to lie with statistics, you as a caster have a responsibility to this game and the spectators to speak up when there is such an obvious problem with the game. One can only yell "amazing fungal" so many times before spectators realize something is wrong with the game. I have said it before, but Starcraft fans are some of the smartest fans out there - they are not stupid, do not treat them as such or they will simply leave for other games, we as a fan community do not expect a high quality product such as Starcraft 2 being ruined by something as obvious as broodlord/infestor literally every game.
The SC fandom originated from Brood War, so there were of course high expectations, and no one wants to see this game die to glaringly obvious balance issues.
/real talk that is all.
p.s. To all reading this thread, just because someone is a known figure in the community, do not take what they say at face value, at least research it, and question it because they could literally be slinging bs your way. FYI, i do not mean disrespect to khaldor, I am a fan of his casting, became a fan when even after he started getting fame he would still cast "lower level" tournaments on tourney streams which i thought was awesome.
Just gotta keep things real y0.
+ Show Spoiler +
TLDR: StarCraft2 casters, even though not all bad, will try to convince you SC2 is not AS imbalanced as you believe it is, regardless of statistics put right in front of them proving otherwise.
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On December 19 2012 23:30 Optimus_13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 23:20 Vanadiel wrote:
Optimus_13 : So your point is that when terran won 8 tournament while Zerg and protoss just 2, the game was more balanced? ^^ No my point is that at the moment zergs>terrans notning more
Nobody says otherwise, it's the idea that there is "no way a terran can win against a Zerg unless he is one thousand times better" that is pretty much wrong and annoying as hell.
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Russian Federation15 Posts
On December 19 2012 23:37 Vanadiel wrote:Nobody says otherwise, it's the idea that there is "no way a terran can win against a Zerg unless he is one thousand times better" that is pretty much wrong and annoying as hell.
Did i say something like that?-_-
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On December 19 2012 17:11 Belha wrote:Gonna repost this cose i posted it in a pretty forgotten thread. Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 12:54 Belha wrote:
Win rates latelly have been missleading. If you don't differentiate between the facts and the quality of the stats, then the numbers worth nothing.
Here I looked deeper inside the most important tournaments from the last months, not just blind numbers, analysis.
2012 MLG Fall Championship:
Top 4: 1º Life; 2º Leenock; 3º Bomber; 4º Flash ; All code S level
About Top4: 2 top Z's in the world, and 2 top T's in the world. (2z 2T 0P)
Toughest opposition: Basically best of the best, with the exception of Startale P's, Hyun, Sniper and Mvp.
2012 Battle.net World Championship
Top4: 1º Parting ; 2º Creator; 3º Rain; 4º Sen
About Top4: Prolly the best 3 P's in the world, and foreigner Z. (1z 0T 3P)
Toughest opposition: Roro (code B), Curious (code A), Stephano, then pure foreigners
Observation: The 3 code S participants ended with the 3 top spots. Only 4T (all non korean) among 32 players.
World Cyber Games 2012:
Top 4: 1º Parting; 2ºAdelscot; 3º MacSed; 4º Lowely
About Top4: Top korean P and 3 foreigners. (1z 0T 3P)
Toughest opposition: MKP....... That's it. The rest of the player pool was just gm level, weaker compared to top pro level.
IEM Season VII - Singapore
Top 4: 1º Sting; 2º Grubby; 3º Slivko; 4º Vortix
About Top4: Korean T, and 3 foreigners. (2z 1T 1P)
Toughest opposition: Not much. MC (code A boss toss), Revival (code B zerg) and Yugioh (code A z).
Observations: Only 3 T players, only 1 korean, who took the trophy.
2012 DreamHack Open: Winter
Top4: 1º Hero; 2º Taeja; 3º monchi and Nerchio.
About Top4: Top korean P and Top korean T. Then 2 foreigners. (1z 1T 2P)
Toughest opposition: Naniwa, TheStc and Stephano. Rest are foreigners and foreign level koreans.
Observations: No korean Z. Only 4 T, still 2 managed to Ro8.
GSL Code S Season 4
Top4: 1º Life; 2º MvP; 3º Taeja and Rain.
About Top4: Top tier koreans. (1z 2T 1P)
Toughest opposition: Best of the best.
GSL Code S Season 5
Top4: 1º Sniper; 2º Hyun; 3º Bogus and Ryung.
About Top4: All top tier koreans. (2z 2T 0P)
Toughest opposition: Best of the best.
Observation: 1 P in Ro8
IGN ProLeague Season 5
Top4: 1º Leenock; 2º Violet; 3º Polt; 4º Bomber.
About Top4: All top tier koreans. (2z 2T 0P)
Toughest opposition: Best of the best, both koreans and foreigners (no Kespa players tho).
Observation: No P at Ro8, clear Z dominance in Tournament bracket.
What can you get from all these?
From the weaker tournaments (with the least quality of players, few koreans and lot of foreigners):
- Terrans are usually the least represented race between foreigners, by a huge margin.
- All were won almost always simply by the most notable/safe bet players. In those cases, those players were the invited korean P's.
Now all the tournaments that held all best of the best in the player pool (aka the players are not a limiting factor), have this facts:
- From the 4 top8's : 15z 12T 5P
- From the 4 top4's : 7z 8T 1P (all koreans)
- All were won by Z players. Ok, I should add it the GSL Blizzard Cup Top6.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments_Medalists/Race
All time results. Terran is op. How does it come that Protoss and Zergs win but Terrans still have more wins lol? Code S never had lesser then 12 terran players. In Code A and Up and Downs only 1 race is winning and it is Terran.
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On December 19 2012 16:22 Khaldor wrote:After I posted this on Reddit a few people argued that the information should rather be posted on TL. So here you go: As it's nearly the end of 2012 now and after all the recent balance whining I was curious about the results in Premier Tournaments in 2012. So I took the liberty of having a closer look at Liquipedia and the race distribution for 1st and 2nd place finishers in 2012. Here are the results: - Zerg: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 16 times
- Protoss: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 15 times
- Terran: 1st - 13 times, 2nd - 8 times
What does this mean? I'm not trying to say the game is balanced. Nor am I saying that certain units (Infestors hi?) don't need to be changed. All I am saying is that these days everyone echoes "facts" they've read on Twitter, Reddit or here on TL whithout even thinking about them. The game is certainly not perfect and there are a lot of things that need to be changed, BUT it is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be these days. TLDR: StarCraft2, even though not balanced, is not AS imbalanced as people might want you believe it is
There are different levels of balance. There is balance that has to be considered for the highest, most competitive level of gameplay where mindgames and metagame take part. There is balance that has to be considered for masters level players that spam the ladder with their games that may or may not be as good as those competing on stage. Finally, there is the lowest level of balance that needs to be considered as if it is impossible for anyone to move up in the game because of how difficult it is, then no one would ever play.
There are some easy components of StarCraft II and there are some difficult components that only the fairest of fair competitors can take advantage of. Balance isn't just a single construct, it's made of different tiers and different opinions.
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On December 19 2012 23:37 avilo wrote:
What was the motivation of making this thread? To pretend like there isn't an obvious imbalance/issues with the game? It's quite easy to lie with statistics and pretend something is something else when it's not.
If you want more telling results, look at the top 16 finishes of a lot of the tournaments in the last 8 months as well as these provided by dvorak on reddit:
dvorak posted on reddit:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being David Kim Sparkles and 10 being IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA how do you rate the Grand Finals of the 8 most recent big-name Premier events:
WCS Asia - PvP
WCS Word - PvP
WCG - PvP
DreamHack Winter - PvT
DreamHack Bucharest - ZvZ
GSL Season 5 - ZvZ
MLG Fall - ZvZ
IGN Season 5 - ZvZ"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see, despite what you tried to make out to be a balanced stat sheet in the OP, that's not how the game actually is. Nor are results anywhere near indicative of balance or the current metagame. Sure, they can be a quick reference, but they don't tell even 1% of the story.
Starcraft's viewership has steadily declined (regardless of what optimistic fanbois and paid casters will tell you) because of the gameplay stagnating into infestor broodlord every game with Zerg, 2 base immortal allins to fight Zerg from Protoss, and Terrans becoming non-existent.
There is a real problem with the game, and any attempt to falsify that or create a fantasy world in which there is no problem is not going to help this game's lifetime run any longer. Instead what it will do is slowly cause more and more people to leave SC2 like they have in recent months because they are not stupid as spectators and got tired of bland, low depth gameplay.
Destiny, is that you?
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No you don't, I wasn't pointing at you, just the general balanced whine on TeamLiquid at every tournament, where people talk more about balance than the game.
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Nobody cares about pre infestor patch. These results don't mean much, if anything at all.
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On December 19 2012 17:03 Rowrin wrote:
You can spin statistics to say anything, you really have to dive into how the statistics were taken before you make assumptions, kinda like what opterown said.
This right here. Useless thread.
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On December 19 2012 23:37 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 23:30 Optimus_13 wrote:On December 19 2012 23:20 Vanadiel wrote:
Optimus_13 : So your point is that when terran won 8 tournament while Zerg and protoss just 2, the game was more balanced? ^^ No my point is that at the moment zergs>terrans notning more Nobody says otherwise, it's the idea that there is "no way a terran can win against a Zerg unless he is one thousand times better" that is pretty much wrong and annoying as hell.
Yes, but it is a fact you have to be a lot better than your opponent to consistently win with terran vs zerg.
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On December 19 2012 23:49 namste wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 17:03 Rowrin wrote:
You can spin statistics to say anything, you really have to dive into how the statistics were taken before you make assumptions, kinda like what opterown said. This right here. Useless thread.
Yep. The reddit one got downvoted to oblivion so he posted it here :/
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What's the point in this, you could manipulate the stats/conclusions in ANY way you want by taking a slightly different sample. If you just look at the games it's obvious that some shit is seriously broken and spectators are switching to LoL and dota because of it. This is very sad because a balanced sc2 would be a clearly superior game to both play and watch.
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why do people still think that all three races has to win an equal amount of games in tournaments for the game to be considered balanced, lol
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It is sad to see that Khaldor, especially as a caster, doesn't seem to understand balance. It's not just the quantity of wins, yeah? It's also the quality of the wins.
On 10 May 2012, Blizzard released the infamous Queen patch, after that it was 'Zergs after Zergs' placing first in tournaments. The numbers then become skewed back into "balance", as per your definition.
But in return, the spirit of the game is crushed. Its just game after game of BL/infestor crushing top-tiers Terrans without any possibility of a response to the composition.
/edit
My last post in this god-awful thread. It would have been closed in an instant if it weren't posted by Khaldor.
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On December 19 2012 23:37 avilo wrote:
What was the motivation of making this thread? To pretend like there isn't an obvious imbalance/issues with the game? It's quite easy to lie with statistics and pretend something is something else when it's not.
If you want more telling results, look at the top 16 finishes of a lot of the tournaments in the last 8 months as well as these provided by dvorak on reddit:
dvorak posted on reddit:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being David Kim Sparkles and 10 being IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA how do you rate the Grand Finals of the 8 most recent big-name Premier events:
WCS Asia - PvP
WCS Word - PvP
WCG - PvP
DreamHack Winter - PvT
DreamHack Bucharest - ZvZ
GSL Season 5 - ZvZ
MLG Fall - ZvZ
IGN Season 5 - ZvZ"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
As you can see, despite what you tried to make out to be a balanced stat sheet in the OP, that's not how the game actually is. Nor are results anywhere near indicative of balance or the current metagame. Sure, they can be a quick reference, but they don't tell even 1% of the story.
Starcraft's viewership has steadily declined (regardless of what optimistic fanbois and paid casters will tell you) because of the gameplay stagnating into infestor broodlord every game with Zerg, 2 base immortal allins to fight Zerg from Protoss, and Terrans becoming non-existent.
There is a real problem with the game, and any attempt to falsify that or create a fantasy world in which there is no problem is not going to help this game's lifetime run any longer. Instead what it will do is slowly cause more and more people to leave SC2 like they have in recent months because they are not stupid as spectators and got tired of bland, low depth gameplay.
Instead of trying to lie with statistics, you as a caster have a responsibility to this game and the spectators to speak up when there is such an obvious problem with the game. One can only yell "amazing fungal" so many times before spectators realize something is wrong with the game. I have said it before, but Starcraft fans are some of the smartest fans out there - they are not stupid, do not treat them as such or they will simply leave for other games, we as a fan community do not expect a high quality product such as Starcraft 2 being ruined by something as obvious as broodlord/infestor literally every game.
The SC fandom originated from Brood War, so there were of course high expectations, and no one wants to see this game die to glaringly obvious balance issues.
/real talk that is all.
p.s. To all reading this thread, just because someone is a known figure in the community, do not take what they say at face value, at least research it, and question it because they could literally be slinging bs your way. FYI, i do not mean disrespect to khaldor, I am a fan of his casting, became a fan when even after he started getting fame he would still cast "lower level" tournaments on tourney streams which i thought was awesome.
Just gotta keep things real y0.
These stats are something more in tune with what we've been seeing on tournaments.
Besides, I think it is obvious that landing a so-called 'sick fungal' is far easier than dodging it. All in all, zerg is far easier to play and far more forgiving than terran and it is that discrepancy, that gap in skill requirement that makes up for the steady decline of viewers, and of professional terran players.
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So basically this thread is khaldor either making a very bad argument and then claiming he never did (often used tactic in debates) or khaldor thinks everyone should understand that his real goal was that protoss are whining for no reason (as a sidenote the "statistics" he uses are entirely worthless for several reasons, one being they dont even control for patches), all while never actually writing that. tl;dr If you cant read khaldors mind he will be angry and whine about teamliquid.
And now he has fled the field? ^^
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On December 19 2012 23:50 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 23:37 Vanadiel wrote:On December 19 2012 23:30 Optimus_13 wrote:On December 19 2012 23:20 Vanadiel wrote:
Optimus_13 : So your point is that when terran won 8 tournament while Zerg and protoss just 2, the game was more balanced? ^^ No my point is that at the moment zergs>terrans notning more Nobody says otherwise, it's the idea that there is "no way a terran can win against a Zerg unless he is one thousand times better" that is pretty much wrong and annoying as hell. Yes, but it is a fact you have to be a lot better than your opponent to consistently win with terran vs zerg.
A fact based on what? I'm really curious. How do you quantify the difficulty and the quality of a player?
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On December 20 2012 00:07 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 23:50 madespecifically wrote:On December 19 2012 23:37 Vanadiel wrote:On December 19 2012 23:30 Optimus_13 wrote:On December 19 2012 23:20 Vanadiel wrote:
Optimus_13 : So your point is that when terran won 8 tournament while Zerg and protoss just 2, the game was more balanced? ^^ No my point is that at the moment zergs>terrans notning more Nobody says otherwise, it's the idea that there is "no way a terran can win against a Zerg unless he is one thousand times better" that is pretty much wrong and annoying as hell. Yes, but it is a fact you have to be a lot better than your opponent to consistently win with terran vs zerg. A fact based on what? I'm really curious. How do you quantify the difficulty and the quality of a player?
Based on the amount of effort it is needed to achieve something. Fungal is kiddie game to place, very hard to dodge. It is easier to a move your lings than stim your marines, stutter step and split. It is easier to move your blings than to dodge them.
I think it is clear that commanding a brood lord infestor army is far easier than commanding a mmmv army. It is easier to make ling runbys than making multiprong drops.
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EPT
