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On December 04 2012 00:13 WeRRa wrote:
I'm really surprised that TvP looks so balanced, i really think it favors protoss. Well i guess it is as balanced as PvZ, till mid game all is fine, but at the lategame terran falls apart against protoss and protoss falls apart against zerglategame. So the reason why TvP and ZvP look so balanced are timing attacks/all ins like 1/1/1 or immortal sentry push.
I have to disagree. In TvP we have seen on a regular basis, that it is difficult, but possible to outplay the Protoss as a terran. Taeja, Bomber, Byun, Polt, Maru and so on have all shown this in the last months. I think TvP might be ok balanced. The tools for the protoss here seem to be a bit easier to use, but it's still winable without banking on a huge protoss blunder. In TvZ this seems not to be the case. The only terran wins I've seen lately were BO wins (mostly Helliontimings against unprepared Zergs) or Zerg screwing up totally. The matchup is seriously broken!
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I remember in 2010 when Terran was ridiculously OP and Terrans were all saying the reason why there was so many Terrans winning and participating in GSL only because MORE players played that race.
Well here it is for all you terrans: The only reason Zerg is winning more right now is because they have the most players playing the race which obviously means they have more of the BEST players.
Sounds fun?
Source... just so I don't get banned : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186193
21% of people had that amazing logic.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On December 04 2012 00:19 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 00:13 WeRRa wrote:
I'm really surprised that TvP looks so balanced, i really think it favors protoss. Well i guess it is as balanced as PvZ, till mid game all is fine, but at the lategame terran falls apart against protoss and protoss falls apart against zerglategame. So the reason why TvP and ZvP look so balanced are timing attacks/all ins like 1/1/1 or immortal sentry push. I have to disagree. In TvP we have seen on a regular basis, that it is difficult, but possible to outplay the Protoss as a terran. Taeja, Bomber, Byun, Polt, Maru and so on have all shown this in the last months. I think TvP might be ok balanced. The tools for the protoss here seem to be a bit easier to use, but it's still winable without banking on a huge protoss blunder. In TvZ this seems not to be the case. The only terran wins I've seen lately were BO wins (mostly Helliontimings against unprepared Zergs) or Zerg screwing up totally. The matchup is seriously broken!
It's a case of a top tier player, who's playing well having not just the chance to beat his opponent in terms of the win, but having the potential to completely destroy him. Bomber managed to beat Rain, who had previously looked extremely good in PvT against the likes of Taeja and Polt who have good TvP. He didn't just beat him though, he destroyed him straight-up.
It's the problem with balancing for Korean Terrans and their skill level, by the way they do it. Korean Terrans have the ability to improve so much with just pure mechanics because the reference point seems to be what Terrans are potentially capable of, at the highest level (Korean T). The other end of this is that to balance this, Korean Protoss players for example, cannot 'scale' with mechanical chops in the same way without breaking the balance between the aspects of Protoss that enable terrible players to win games, and the potential of a Protoss with those advantages who has sick mechanics to raise the 'peak' level. Thus Protoss players cannot improve to the same degree or by the same methods as Terran. They have to focus on other things like hitting refined timings.
I mean consider MC. I know he has been called 'GM level' with all three races, although I haven't seen his Terran. A guy who had good enough chops mechanically to play Zerg to a level that a GSL level player thought it would be good enough for him to use as a practice partner (who was that btw?)
MC is a guy with at least some degree of mechanical competence if he can play all three races to that kind of level. Why does nobody ever say 'wow MC's macro is sick' or indeed, why does MC not deviate his style at all in PvZ really? Yeah the builds will change, but his entire PvZ is based around timing attacks near enough.
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On December 04 2012 00:24 Topzerg wrote:I remember in 2010 when Terran was ridiculously OP and Terrans were all saying the reason why there was so many Terrans winning and participating in GSL only because MORE players played that race. Well here it is for all you terrans: The only reason Zerg is winning more right now is because they have the most players playing the race which obviously means they have more of the BEST players. Sounds fun? Source... just so I don't get banned : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=18619321% of people had that amazing logic.
Nah, the majority of pro players really did pick terran at the start, maps also favored terran.
Also, terran had a 52,5 % win ratio in tvz 2010 while zerg is now at 55,6% in 2012 (gsl based tournaments)
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It's actually insane how blizzard:
1) says the stats show even winrates
2) talks about zvp, but almost never about zvt.
The problem is ZvT atm, and I hope blizzard realises that something needs to change. The key is a HUGE raven change, because the raven has no use in TvP, so TvP will remain unaffected.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On December 04 2012 00:19 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 00:13 WeRRa wrote:
I'm really surprised that TvP looks so balanced, i really think it favors protoss. Well i guess it is as balanced as PvZ, till mid game all is fine, but at the lategame terran falls apart against protoss and protoss falls apart against zerglategame. So the reason why TvP and ZvP look so balanced are timing attacks/all ins like 1/1/1 or immortal sentry push. I have to disagree. In TvP we have seen on a regular basis, that it is difficult, but possible to outplay the Protoss as a terran. Taeja, Bomber, Byun, Polt, Maru and so on have all shown this in the last months. I think TvP might be ok balanced. The tools for the protoss here seem to be a bit easier to use, but it's still winable without banking on a huge protoss blunder. In TvZ this seems not to be the case. The only terran wins I've seen lately were BO wins (mostly Helliontimings against unprepared Zergs) or Zerg screwing up totally. The matchup is seriously broken!
There's also subtle differences in aspects of the matchup that kind of reward Protoss players for multipronged aggression more so than against Zerg (bar like, warp prism play). Protoss players can mineral dump in Zealots to run into mineral lines in PvT at timings that actually reward doing such a play in terms of some tangible benefit. They can hit say in the timings before Terrans have really set up defences against such plays, or even use it positionally. Say a 10 Zealot runby is coming to a Terran mineral line and the T player spots it, well that's forcing a decision to be made between retreating his army from wherever it is (ceding territory), or 'taking the hit' to his economy and continuing with something like trying to snipe a third. This in turn, enables a bit more multitasking to be in evidence from the Protoss player's perspective, not because it's flashy or entertaining, but because it's good play.
Protoss can't do this against Zerg without zealots warp prisms in my view. Attempts at Zealot runbys may occasionally work, because a player is terrible, but Zerg's units tend to be fast enough and destroy Zealots for no loss (like roaches) for this approach to not really work. Creep allows such shenanigans to be spotted much earlier too, as a matter of course. A Terran CAN spot a Zealot runby a mile off with things like marine patrols, but he doesn't have the kind of failsafe that creep vision gives a Zerg. You also can't really spare gas units to do this, because they're too risky to lose in the most part. This is why something like a small gateway/sentry poke is almost never seen anymore. Not because the idea to pressure at whatever time it is is inherently bad, but because the risk of failing with a poke (especially without scouting info) can literally lose you the game there and then. You thus need to bypass terrain with warp prisms to try and exploit the fact that the speed roaches and zerglings can move fucking fast in 2 planes, but lack the ability to move in the 3rd dimension.
Once you have the lategame architecture set up to be able to afford prisms, maybe speed and maybe Templar tech for storm drops, the Zerg has already passed the critical mass/cutoff point in which that is stopping Broodlords emerging, or something like that. Yeah you can still harass him to death and win, but it's really hard to actively force Zerg into the kind of decision making I referenced, noncommitally.
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On December 03 2012 22:52 Bellazuk wrote:
Hehe guyz it's top best players in the world, so b4 whinning think that if people menaged to get gm as terran/protoss and your stuck in diamond, that's not the result of the game being imba lololol. I have many friends with poorn skills claming imba all the time , it's just easier to point out imba than say I'm not good enough. In LoL people whine about teamates being bad right, in sc2 it's 1v1, so I guess u figured out my point.
Great tournament, I'd prob expect infestor nerf anyways but not sure if it will bring down the whinners because even when gsl was all about TvT , players were saying zerg op so I guess at this point it doesn't matter that much.
ofc we are all stuck at diamond :|
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Zerg doesn't need a nerf, Terran just needs a buff against biological.
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On December 04 2012 00:47 Butterednuts wrote:
Zerg doesn't need a nerf, Terran just needs a buff against biological.
... wat?
The only problem Terran has is the ability to deal with late game zerg armies effectively. A correct raven fix would probably fix that.
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It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics.
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On December 04 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:
It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics.
Why would you say that? Polt & Bomber made it to the #3 and #4 spots of the most recent IPL, Polt has been slightly up and down lately, but remains on an upward trend. MKP is good, but still tilts every once in a while, Taeja has fizzled out, but this could be due to injury.
Who are you referring to? MVP is down for the count due to his injury, I hope he doesn't retire. 
If this is some attempt to put the blame on terrans for not winning recently, you're grossly mis-informed.
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On December 04 2012 00:24 Topzerg wrote:I remember in 2010 when Terran was ridiculously OP and Terrans were all saying the reason why there was so many Terrans winning and participating in GSL only because MORE players played that race. Well here it is for all you terrans: The only reason Zerg is winning more right now is because they have the most players playing the race which obviously means they have more of the BEST players. Sounds fun? Source... just so I don't get banned : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=18619321% of people had that amazing logic.
Even now there is more Terrans in GSL than Zergs and Protoss btw.
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TvP's and PvZ's winrates are surprisingly close. Terran win rate is low maybe they should have a up ( Blizzard if you read this post it's for you ).
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On December 04 2012 00:14 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 00:13 WeRRa wrote:
I'm really surprised that TvP looks so balanced, i really think it favors protoss. Well i guess it is as balanced as PvZ, till mid game all is fine, but at the lategame terran falls apart against protoss and protoss falls apart against zerglategame. So the reason why TvP and ZvP look so balanced are timing attacks/all ins like 1/1/1 or immortal sentry push. Nah, lategame is fine if you are a korean terran.
It's not even Korean Terrans, just a select few Korean Terrans...
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On December 04 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:
It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics.
It's also a morale issue, when terran is at 51% vs zerg, Blizzard find it a big problem and give ferrarilords and queendralisks, and when zerg wins 70%, Blizzard thinks balance is fine and nerf eggs life by 20.
If you're a pro and a terran nowadays, there is just no perspective or future before HOTS, so train for what ?
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we need slayers back to get TvZ balanced without blizzard haha
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On December 04 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:
It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics.
I think the real issue is terrans stopped practicing TvZ, I mean back a few months ago there were lots of pros that had excellent TvZ, now I can't even think of one that I would say is a solid TvZ sniper. They must have all switched to practicing TvP instead, while zergs continued to refine ZvT (not sure who they practiced against though, surely couldn't have been terrans since no terran is really practicing TvZ anymore?)
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
Are people actually taking kcdc's fine ironic post seriously? Jesus christ get a sarcasm filter folks.
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On December 04 2012 01:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
Are people actually taking kcdc's fine ironic post seriously? Jesus christ get a sarcasm filter folks.
I was just about to make a very similar post. Some people... 
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Thanks for the charts man.
But honestly now. Who is really surprised with that TvZ Chart. Totally....... "Balanced".
IPL,MLG,GSL. Like gawd. Save humanity.
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EPT
