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On December 04 2012 01:39 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:32 mikedebo wrote:On December 04 2012 01:31 renaissanceMAN wrote:On December 04 2012 01:27 ImFromPortugal wrote:On December 04 2012 00:53 renaissanceMAN wrote:On December 04 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:
It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics. Why would you say that? Polt & Bomber made it to the #3 and #4 spots of the most recent IPL, Polt has been slightly up and down lately, but remains on an upward trend. MKP is good, but still tilts every once in a while, Taeja has fizzled out, but this could be due to injury. Who are you referring to? MVP is down for the count due to his injury, I hope he doesn't retire.  If this is some attempt to put the blame on terrans for not winning recently, you're grossly mis-informed. damn bro.. you can't get sarcasm at all lol third time in this thread! I'll just stop replying and cry at my desk at work i think he was being sarcastic i'm kind of serious
i wasn't 
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Northern Ireland25991 Posts
On December 04 2012 01:59 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 00:59 MrCon wrote:On December 04 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:
It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics. It's also a morale issue, when terran is at 51% vs zerg, Blizzard find it a big problem and give ferrarilords and queendralisks, and when zerg wins 70%, Blizzard thinks balance is fine and nerf eggs life by 20. If you're a pro and a terran nowadays, there is just no perspective or future before HOTS, so train for what ? You have no idea what you're talking about, it's actually kind of scary.
He is kind of right with the central idea though, that it's a balance between perception and pure stats that has to be looked at, rather than each them in isolation.
I mean I've heard Zergs describe Daybreak as 'slightly favouring Zerg' in ZvT and claiming that Antiga is 'massively Terran favoured'. Stats don't back this up at all in the current metagame. The reason the attitude still exist is a remnant of a former metagame where Marine-Tank pushes and slower hive enabled you to take the middle ground and split the map this kind of interaction in timings and intersection of strats has changed, so the map stats have changed accordingly. Ah the days of MVP splitting the map and sniping everything... good times
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On December 03 2012 23:53 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 23:00 Psychobabas wrote:
TvZ looks legit
No imbalance here not sure if srs. kind of glad I'm not playing this game right now, it's sad that there are those who think this game is "balanced"
Not serious xD
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My (potentially biased) takeaways:
Zerg has an unfair advantage against Terran
Protoss vs Terran is refreshingly fair
Zerg has an unfair advantage against Protoss except when Protoss goes for the immortal/sentry all-in
ZvZ is the only Zerg MU that feel legitimate to me when I watch.
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Funny thing is that only one in history of sc2 we have one matchup over 59% and it was for one month. (TvZ in 2010)
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On December 04 2012 01:51 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 00:24 Topzerg wrote:I remember in 2010 when Terran was ridiculously OP and Terrans were all saying the reason why there was so many Terrans winning and participating in GSL only because MORE players played that race. Well here it is for all you terrans: The only reason Zerg is winning more right now is because they have the most players playing the race which obviously means they have more of the BEST players. Sounds fun? Source... just so I don't get banned : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=18619321% of people had that amazing logic. Funny you say something like that because even now you have more terrans in Code S than protoss or zerg. It is not about counting number of players it is about the win rates. So yes, it is true that more Koreans picked terran but even though they are in majority, they are getting their asses kicked by zergs. And when Code S level player drops to Code A he will most likely get back to Code S despite of balance and you will again have more terrans in next season of Code S which will again get their asses kicked...
That's actually a good point.
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On December 03 2012 23:05 Netsky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 22:57 Yello wrote:On December 03 2012 22:50 Saechiis wrote:
I think Zerg is advantaged in the marathon tournaments that currently make out most of the tournament scene since they can play standard every game and have a good shot at winning. In terms of player specific preparations I feel Terran can do a lot to even things up, but that's only really the case in long term tournaments like GSL. This is TvZ for the last season of GSL: + Show Spoiler +38.2% Set Winrate for Terran against Zergs (34W 55L) At least for the last season of GSL Terrans were performing extremely bad vs Zerg. Or Zerg were performing really well. If we jump back one more season things looks a lot more balanced with 47% Winrate for Terran vs Zerg (47W 53L) Even though it's a much smaller sample size, this number is far more accurate imo. Due the closer skill level of the players and higher skill level overall. I would also be very curious of the percentage of the Terran wins that came from 2 rax.
Very good point about the 2 rax. So many Terrans are just going 2 rax because they would rather take a "coin flip" approach than meet the (less than 50% chance) of the impending Zerg BL/Infestor deathball. Seeing as though last GSL stats were missed, these numbers are not only bad for TvZ, but terrible if you reduce wins from 2 rax.
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On December 04 2012 08:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
Hmm it would seem TvP and PvZ are nicely balanced. So how the fuck do they change ZvT without fucking Zerg over vs Toss?
Infestor nerf
Hydra buff
?
toss deathballs are gonna destroy the Z that way due to huge splash dmg.
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On December 04 2012 08:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
Hmm it would seem TvP and PvZ are nicely balanced. So how the fuck do they change ZvT without fucking Zerg over vs Toss?
Infestor nerf
Hydra buff
?
Better maps.
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
On December 04 2012 08:02 kcdc wrote:
My (potentially biased) takeaways:
Zerg has an unfair advantage against Terran
Protoss vs Terran is refreshingly fair
Zerg has an unfair advantage against Protoss except when Protoss goes for the immortal/sentry all-in
ZvZ is the only Zerg MU that feel legitimate to me when I watch.
I have to agree with this - proper PartinG style immortal sentry all in (3 immortal ~8 sentry moveout at 8:50) is rare and very few have the warp prism control and general ability, but i think it might be slightly unfair at the highest level, where it feels like there is nothing the zerg side can do to win - but it might not be certain. It seems less of a problem than 1-1-1 was (which was much stronger on the smaller map pools of 2011)
In general matchups against zerg seem awful. I feel horrible watching the best terrans trying to get into an advantageous position, but it seems more and more like trying to force the zerg to mess up so they dont lose their entire army regardless of micro to an attack move command when they do chose to engage
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And where im supposed to see that ZvT matchup is Imba ..... ????
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On December 03 2012 22:07 tomatriedes wrote:
I feel the ZvP stat is a bit misleading because several of these tournaments were lacking top Korean zergs. If any of Life, Leenock, Violet, Sniper, Hyun, Symbol etc. had have attended WCG, Dreamhack, WCS and IEM these stats would have been much different.
But thanks anyway!
Then you're saying that in TvZ, Zerg would have a greater winning rate? Omg, Blizz what are you doing?
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On December 04 2012 08:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
Hmm it would seem TvP and PvZ are nicely balanced. So how the fuck do they change ZvT without fucking Zerg over vs Toss?
Infestor nerf
Hydra buff
?
Bring back old snipe? This doesnt affect TvP because EMP is more valuable.
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On December 04 2012 00:24 Topzerg wrote:I remember in 2010 when Terran was ridiculously OP and Terrans were all saying the reason why there was so many Terrans winning and participating in GSL only because MORE players played that race. Well here it is for all you terrans: The only reason Zerg is winning more right now is because they have the most players playing the race which obviously means they have more of the BEST players. Sounds fun? Source... just so I don't get banned : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=18619321% of people had that amazing logic.
Except that at the time, all the most successful Brood War players that switched over (Nada, MVP, Boxer etc. etc.) WERE playing Terran and that poll was taken dispite ZERO Terran tournament wins!
So not are you fucking stupid for bringing up 2010 arguments when Steppes of War was still in the map pool, but you aren't even reading them right.
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On December 04 2012 08:15 Emzeeshady wrote:
Hmm it would seem TvP and PvZ are nicely balanced. So how the fuck do they change ZvT without fucking Zerg over vs Toss?
Infestor nerf
Hydra buff
?
What unit has no use in TvP because of feedback? The raven. So a HUGE raven change won't affect TvP
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On December 04 2012 00:24 Topzerg wrote:I remember in 2010 when Terran was ridiculously OP and Terrans were all saying the reason why there was so many Terrans winning and participating in GSL only because MORE players played that race. Well here it is for all you terrans: The only reason Zerg is winning more right now is because they have the most players playing the race which obviously means they have more of the BEST players. Sounds fun? Source... just so I don't get banned : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=18619321% of people had that amazing logic.
Then by your logic, you're saying that Zerg is OP. Seriously, your post doesn't contribute anything. I think a proper raven buff could definitely help out late game TvZ.
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Northern Ireland25991 Posts
On December 04 2012 09:10 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 08:02 kcdc wrote:
My (potentially biased) takeaways:
Zerg has an unfair advantage against Terran
Protoss vs Terran is refreshingly fair
Zerg has an unfair advantage against Protoss except when Protoss goes for the immortal/sentry all-in
ZvZ is the only Zerg MU that feel legitimate to me when I watch. I have to agree with this - proper PartinG style immortal sentry all in (3 immortal ~8 sentry moveout at 8:50) is rare and very few have the warp prism control and general ability, but i think it might be slightly unfair at the highest level, where it feels like there is nothing the zerg side can do to win - but it might not be certain. It seems less of a problem than 1-1-1 was (which was much stronger on the smaller map pools of 2011) In general matchups against zerg seem awful. I feel horrible watching the best terrans trying to get into an advantageous position, but it seems more and more like trying to force the zerg to mess up so they dont lose their entire army regardless of micro to an attack move command when they do chose to engage
Consider why that is unfair, or at least imo. The 1/1/1 used to work in exactly the same way in PvT, even if you knew it was coming you could still die. However, it was patched before the metagame/map pool changes were kicking in. Blizzard couldn't really have predicted this, and it kind of has changed a lot of PvP things as well.
I went to test this to try and hold outschool 1/1/1s with a friend, not super high level games, but tweaked the Immortal range. They're still holdable with the range, it's the economy boost kicking in at the right time with a 1 Rax FE that lets you hold it.
However, the Won/Won/Won is really only as good as it is as a direct consequence of the Immortal buff, which was to fix the TvP equivalent of it.
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Not enough samples in play to take this seriously. Good info anyway.
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EPT
