Win Rates:Tournaments from September - December - Page 8
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On December 04 2012 01:59 Skwid1g wrote: You have no idea what you're talking about, it's actually kind of scary. What do you mean? He's pretty correct.... This revisionist history going on here on TL is what is scary... Have people forgotten how many countless nerfs Terran has been subjected to? Have people forgotten how the map pool has evolved in the past 2 years? Even through the periods of utter Terran domination and GomTvT we had Zerg champions. Zergs hadn't even developed the use of Infestors yet and they were winning GSLs for fucks sake. Queen/Overlord buffs came mere weeks after Blizzard announced the game was as balanced as it had ever been. Ghosts nerfs came swiftly after MVP dominated NesTea in a single showmatch. Protoss and Zerg can cry all they want, but at least players of those races are still winning shit and at least foreign P/Z have some hope of making a career out of SC2. Terrans are being forced into retirement. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
btw, does this mean map or set win rates? | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On December 04 2012 02:06 Wombat_NI wrote: He is kind of right with the central idea though, that it's a balance between perception and pure stats that has to be looked at, rather than each them in isolation. I mean I've heard Zergs describe Daybreak as 'slightly favouring Zerg' in ZvT and claiming that Antiga is 'massively Terran favoured'. Stats don't back this up at all in the current metagame. The reason the attitude still exist is a remnant of a former metagame where Marine-Tank pushes and slower hive enabled you to take the middle ground and split the map this kind of interaction in timings and intersection of strats has changed, so the map stats have changed accordingly. Ah the days of MVP splitting the map and sniping everything... good times good time* Unlike this current stint of Zerg domination with a single unit, Terran hardly gets to revel in any of their own innovations before a swift kick in the balls is in order. | ||
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Brett
Australia3821 Posts
On December 04 2012 10:10 Scila wrote: 60% ZvT win ratio. "We do not see a significant imbalance at the top level of play." Also wtf PvZ is actually Protoss favored, probably because you can do your sentry immortal all-in. Probably because most of these tournaments have featured multiple top Korean protoss playing against what is, to them at least, second tier opposition in foreign zerg players. I wouldn't read much at all into these stats. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10363 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25984 Posts
On December 04 2012 10:12 aksfjh wrote: good time* Unlike this current stint of Zerg domination with a single unit, Terran hardly gets to revel in any of their own innovations before a swift kick in the balls is in order. It's so sad man, I pine for the glorious sound of snipes raining down from the mouse of MVP. Yeah even if it was broken, at least it was rare, and thus kind of cool to see occasionally. Zerg is so, so homogenised. Everyone seems to play either similarly, but to different degrees of proficiency. Leenock then kind of does some ridiculously intricate and cool build every so often, just to keep it interesting. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On December 04 2012 10:16 Brett wrote: Probably because most of these tournaments have featured multiple top Korean protoss playing against what is, to them at least, second tier opposition in foreign zerg players. I wouldn't read much at all into these stats. Not even that. It's like a Korean All-Star Protoss lineup being pitted against the best of the b-teams from all over the world. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On December 04 2012 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote: It's so sad man, I pine for the glorious sound of snipes raining down from the mouse of MVP. Yeah even if it was broken, at least it was rare, and thus kind of cool to see occasionally. Zerg is so, so homogenised. Everyone seems to play either similarly, but to different degrees of proficiency. Leenock then kind of does some ridiculously intricate and cool build every so often, just to keep it interesting. I will admit that some of the recent GSL TvZ games were really, really good, despite of the awful imbalance. Zerg showcased some amazing midgame strengths and fantastic unit control to over come positioning, showing what the race can do when you don't just a-move on the minimap while focusing on injects. It's just sad that the matchup for Zerg is basically how I play "scary" FPSs: with a auto-win cheat waiting for me if I ever find myself against a wall. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25984 Posts
On December 04 2012 10:26 aksfjh wrote: I will admit that some of the recent GSL TvZ games were really, really good, despite of the awful imbalance. Zerg showcased some amazing midgame strengths and fantastic unit control to over come positioning, showing what the race can do when you don't just a-move on the minimap while focusing on injects. It's just sad that the matchup for Zerg is basically how I play "scary" FPSs: with a auto-win cheat waiting for me if I ever find myself against a wall. Well Ryung's games were sick, good strategy of exploiting map architecture and using his strengths to win. That's the exact kind of thing I talk about when I talk about 'balance'. Yeah it's a balance between players of relative proficiency, having equal chances. There's also the balance between difficulty and ease of execution, fun vs monotony and solid standards against variety to consider. Ryung was able to use the specific characteristics of that map to play a style that suits his strengths, and was considered to be very Zerg favoured by many. That's what Starcraft is about man | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
if the rates still show zerg at around 55-60% in both matchups, infestors should take a large nerf. I dont mean something like reducing the HP of the eggs, because that only limits their usefulness in one way. they should completely remove one of it's utilities, or at least make the infestors less suited for a role than another unit of zerg. For example, I think changing infestors burrow movement to be as easily detectable as a ghost, DT, or banshee would be a good move because it would make mutalisks a more viable harassment option in some circumstances. Other ideas from me would be, taking armor off of the morphing infested terran completely in combination with the HP nerf to 80, Making fungal growth unable to stun air units (this is i think the change that would have the greatest effect on the metagame), decreasing the radius of fungal growth to 1.5 and nerfing the damage to 35. Each of these changes alone would have a huge impact probably enough to where we wouldn't need to change anything about T or P in the meantime (maybe considering changing the way interceptors and fungal growth works as well) | ||
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Monochromatic
United States998 Posts
Like September only, or October only. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25984 Posts
On December 04 2012 10:41 c0sm0naut wrote: I think that one month should go by and we should look at rates as a community WITH blizzard if the rates still show zerg at around 55-60% in both matchups, infestors should take a large nerf. I dont mean something like reducing the HP of the eggs, because that only limits their usefulness in one way. they should completely remove one of it's utilities, or at least make the infestors less suited for a role than another unit of zerg. For example, I think changing infestors burrow movement to be as easily detectable as a ghost, DT, or banshee would be a good move because it would make mutalisks a more viable harassment option in some circumstances. Other ideas from me would be, taking armor off of the morphing infested terran completely in combination with the HP nerf to 80, Making fungal growth unable to stun air units (this is i think the change that would have the greatest effect on the metagame), decreasing the radius of fungal growth to 1.5 and nerfing the damage to 35. Each of these changes alone would have a huge impact probably enough to where we wouldn't need to change anything about T or P in the meantime (maybe considering changing the way interceptors and fungal growth works as well) Exactly why you have to have a proper discussion with Blizzard and the idea that balanced 50/50 winrates don't necessarily make the game fun I mean we disagree with Infestors I think, but the approach has some validity I believe. It's the timings that Zerg units come out, that are only made possible by Zerg design that really brings the issue into focus. I mean I consider Infestors as 'feeling' like a High Templar, that you can spam from the midgame and with less downside for overmaking them and a more versatile unit. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Sandermatt
Switzerland1365 Posts
On December 04 2012 09:54 zmansman17 wrote: Zerg dominating both MUs. They dominate ZvP with 48% winrate? | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On December 04 2012 11:08 Wombat_NI wrote: Exactly why you have to have a proper discussion with Blizzard and the idea that balanced 50/50 winrates don't necessarily make the game fun I mean we disagree with Infestors I think, but the approach has some validity I believe. It's the timings that Zerg units come out, that are only made possible by Zerg design that really brings the issue into focus. I mean I consider Infestors as 'feeling' like a High Templar, that you can spam from the midgame and with less downside for overmaking them and a more versatile unit. the infestor differs from the HT in that ghost is a viable counter for HT and can be zoned out with fungals before landing EMP. infestors also serve more roles being completely honest. there is a point at which, i can have like 20 ghosts with full energy and HT dont do shit, but i cant think of any ghost count that reliably lets me do that, especially one that is feasible to get to nowdays considering hive tech is coming at 16 min at the latest and zergs aren't sitting on 200/200 armies, they're trading them because they can remake faster with banked resources from an earlier (on average) third base. this is exactly why i think they need to be changed in at least one way pretty significantly. it needs to lose the catch all feel it has | ||
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Owl
145 Posts
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