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Win Rates:Tournaments from September - December - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Account252508
Profile Joined February 2012
3454 Posts
December 04 2012 00:51 GMT
#141
--- Nuked ---
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
December 04 2012 00:54 GMT
#142
Zerg dominating both MUs.
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
December 04 2012 01:00 GMT
#143
On December 04 2012 01:59 Skwid1g wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2012 00:59 MrCon wrote:
On December 04 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:
It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics.

It's also a morale issue, when terran is at 51% vs zerg, Blizzard find it a big problem and give ferrarilords and queendralisks, and when zerg wins 70%, Blizzard thinks balance is fine and nerf eggs life by 20.
If you're a pro and a terran nowadays, there is just no perspective or future before HOTS, so train for what ?


You have no idea what you're talking about, it's actually kind of scary.


What do you mean? He's pretty correct....

This revisionist history going on here on TL is what is scary...

Have people forgotten how many countless nerfs Terran has been subjected to? Have people forgotten how the map pool has evolved in the past 2 years? Even through the periods of utter Terran domination and GomTvT we had Zerg champions. Zergs hadn't even developed the use of Infestors yet and they were winning GSLs for fucks sake. Queen/Overlord buffs came mere weeks after Blizzard announced the game was as balanced as it had ever been. Ghosts nerfs came swiftly after MVP dominated NesTea in a single showmatch.

Protoss and Zerg can cry all they want, but at least players of those races are still winning shit and at least foreign P/Z have some hope of making a career out of SC2. Terrans are being forced into retirement.
FuzzyJAM
Profile Joined July 2010
Scotland9300 Posts
December 04 2012 01:00 GMT
#144
Blizzard: We are currently happy with the state of balance and see no cause for concern.
Did you ever say Yes to a single joy?
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-04 01:09:08
December 04 2012 01:08 GMT
#145
I'm a bit surprised by this. Although the tvz winrate is far from optimal, i thought it would've been more in favor of zerg to be honest.

btw, does this mean map or set win rates?
Scila
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1849 Posts
December 04 2012 01:10 GMT
#146
60% ZvT win ratio. "We do not see a significant imbalance at the top level of play." Also wtf PvZ is actually Protoss favored, probably because you can do your sentry immortal all-in.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
December 04 2012 01:12 GMT
#147
On December 04 2012 02:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2012 01:59 Skwid1g wrote:
On December 04 2012 00:59 MrCon wrote:
On December 04 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:
It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics.

It's also a morale issue, when terran is at 51% vs zerg, Blizzard find it a big problem and give ferrarilords and queendralisks, and when zerg wins 70%, Blizzard thinks balance is fine and nerf eggs life by 20.
If you're a pro and a terran nowadays, there is just no perspective or future before HOTS, so train for what ?


You have no idea what you're talking about, it's actually kind of scary.

He is kind of right with the central idea though, that it's a balance between perception and pure stats that has to be looked at, rather than each them in isolation.

I mean I've heard Zergs describe Daybreak as 'slightly favouring Zerg' in ZvT and claiming that Antiga is 'massively Terran favoured'. Stats don't back this up at all in the current metagame. The reason the attitude still exist is a remnant of a former metagame where Marine-Tank pushes and slower hive enabled you to take the middle ground and split the map this kind of interaction in timings and intersection of strats has changed, so the map stats have changed accordingly. Ah the days of MVP splitting the map and sniping everything... good times

good time*

Unlike this current stint of Zerg domination with a single unit, Terran hardly gets to revel in any of their own innovations before a swift kick in the balls is in order.
Brett
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Australia3821 Posts
December 04 2012 01:16 GMT
#148
On December 04 2012 10:10 Scila wrote:
60% ZvT win ratio. "We do not see a significant imbalance at the top level of play." Also wtf PvZ is actually Protoss favored, probably because you can do your sentry immortal all-in.

Probably because most of these tournaments have featured multiple top Korean protoss playing against what is, to them at least, second tier opposition in foreign zerg players. I wouldn't read much at all into these stats.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10363 Posts
December 04 2012 01:18 GMT
#149
nice, thanks for this!
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25984 Posts
December 04 2012 01:20 GMT
#150
On December 04 2012 10:12 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2012 02:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
On December 04 2012 01:59 Skwid1g wrote:
On December 04 2012 00:59 MrCon wrote:
On December 04 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:
It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics.

It's also a morale issue, when terran is at 51% vs zerg, Blizzard find it a big problem and give ferrarilords and queendralisks, and when zerg wins 70%, Blizzard thinks balance is fine and nerf eggs life by 20.
If you're a pro and a terran nowadays, there is just no perspective or future before HOTS, so train for what ?


You have no idea what you're talking about, it's actually kind of scary.

He is kind of right with the central idea though, that it's a balance between perception and pure stats that has to be looked at, rather than each them in isolation.

I mean I've heard Zergs describe Daybreak as 'slightly favouring Zerg' in ZvT and claiming that Antiga is 'massively Terran favoured'. Stats don't back this up at all in the current metagame. The reason the attitude still exist is a remnant of a former metagame where Marine-Tank pushes and slower hive enabled you to take the middle ground and split the map this kind of interaction in timings and intersection of strats has changed, so the map stats have changed accordingly. Ah the days of MVP splitting the map and sniping everything... good times

good time*

Unlike this current stint of Zerg domination with a single unit, Terran hardly gets to revel in any of their own innovations before a swift kick in the balls is in order.

It's so sad man, I pine for the glorious sound of snipes raining down from the mouse of MVP. Yeah even if it was broken, at least it was rare, and thus kind of cool to see occasionally.

Zerg is so, so homogenised. Everyone seems to play either similarly, but to different degrees of proficiency. Leenock then kind of does some ridiculously intricate and cool build every so often, just to keep it interesting.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
December 04 2012 01:21 GMT
#151
On December 04 2012 10:16 Brett wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2012 10:10 Scila wrote:
60% ZvT win ratio. "We do not see a significant imbalance at the top level of play." Also wtf PvZ is actually Protoss favored, probably because you can do your sentry immortal all-in.

Probably because most of these tournaments have featured multiple top Korean protoss playing against what is, to them at least, second tier opposition in foreign zerg players. I wouldn't read much at all into these stats.

Not even that. It's like a Korean All-Star Protoss lineup being pitted against the best of the b-teams from all over the world.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
December 04 2012 01:26 GMT
#152
On December 04 2012 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2012 10:12 aksfjh wrote:
On December 04 2012 02:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
On December 04 2012 01:59 Skwid1g wrote:
On December 04 2012 00:59 MrCon wrote:
On December 04 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:
It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics.

It's also a morale issue, when terran is at 51% vs zerg, Blizzard find it a big problem and give ferrarilords and queendralisks, and when zerg wins 70%, Blizzard thinks balance is fine and nerf eggs life by 20.
If you're a pro and a terran nowadays, there is just no perspective or future before HOTS, so train for what ?


You have no idea what you're talking about, it's actually kind of scary.

He is kind of right with the central idea though, that it's a balance between perception and pure stats that has to be looked at, rather than each them in isolation.

I mean I've heard Zergs describe Daybreak as 'slightly favouring Zerg' in ZvT and claiming that Antiga is 'massively Terran favoured'. Stats don't back this up at all in the current metagame. The reason the attitude still exist is a remnant of a former metagame where Marine-Tank pushes and slower hive enabled you to take the middle ground and split the map this kind of interaction in timings and intersection of strats has changed, so the map stats have changed accordingly. Ah the days of MVP splitting the map and sniping everything... good times

good time*

Unlike this current stint of Zerg domination with a single unit, Terran hardly gets to revel in any of their own innovations before a swift kick in the balls is in order.

It's so sad man, I pine for the glorious sound of snipes raining down from the mouse of MVP. Yeah even if it was broken, at least it was rare, and thus kind of cool to see occasionally.

Zerg is so, so homogenised. Everyone seems to play either similarly, but to different degrees of proficiency. Leenock then kind of does some ridiculously intricate and cool build every so often, just to keep it interesting.

I will admit that some of the recent GSL TvZ games were really, really good, despite of the awful imbalance. Zerg showcased some amazing midgame strengths and fantastic unit control to over come positioning, showing what the race can do when you don't just a-move on the minimap while focusing on injects. It's just sad that the matchup for Zerg is basically how I play "scary" FPSs: with a auto-win cheat waiting for me if I ever find myself against a wall.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25984 Posts
December 04 2012 01:37 GMT
#153
On December 04 2012 10:26 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2012 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote:
On December 04 2012 10:12 aksfjh wrote:
On December 04 2012 02:06 Wombat_NI wrote:
On December 04 2012 01:59 Skwid1g wrote:
On December 04 2012 00:59 MrCon wrote:
On December 04 2012 00:50 kcdc wrote:
It's crazy how all the top level Terrans stopped practicing so hard. At least the Zergs have redoubled their work ethics.

It's also a morale issue, when terran is at 51% vs zerg, Blizzard find it a big problem and give ferrarilords and queendralisks, and when zerg wins 70%, Blizzard thinks balance is fine and nerf eggs life by 20.
If you're a pro and a terran nowadays, there is just no perspective or future before HOTS, so train for what ?


You have no idea what you're talking about, it's actually kind of scary.

He is kind of right with the central idea though, that it's a balance between perception and pure stats that has to be looked at, rather than each them in isolation.

I mean I've heard Zergs describe Daybreak as 'slightly favouring Zerg' in ZvT and claiming that Antiga is 'massively Terran favoured'. Stats don't back this up at all in the current metagame. The reason the attitude still exist is a remnant of a former metagame where Marine-Tank pushes and slower hive enabled you to take the middle ground and split the map this kind of interaction in timings and intersection of strats has changed, so the map stats have changed accordingly. Ah the days of MVP splitting the map and sniping everything... good times

good time*

Unlike this current stint of Zerg domination with a single unit, Terran hardly gets to revel in any of their own innovations before a swift kick in the balls is in order.

It's so sad man, I pine for the glorious sound of snipes raining down from the mouse of MVP. Yeah even if it was broken, at least it was rare, and thus kind of cool to see occasionally.

Zerg is so, so homogenised. Everyone seems to play either similarly, but to different degrees of proficiency. Leenock then kind of does some ridiculously intricate and cool build every so often, just to keep it interesting.

I will admit that some of the recent GSL TvZ games were really, really good, despite of the awful imbalance. Zerg showcased some amazing midgame strengths and fantastic unit control to over come positioning, showing what the race can do when you don't just a-move on the minimap while focusing on injects. It's just sad that the matchup for Zerg is basically how I play "scary" FPSs: with a auto-win cheat waiting for me if I ever find myself against a wall.

Well Ryung's games were sick, good strategy of exploiting map architecture and using his strengths to win.

That's the exact kind of thing I talk about when I talk about 'balance'. Yeah it's a balance between players of relative proficiency, having equal chances.

There's also the balance between difficulty and ease of execution, fun vs monotony and solid standards against variety to consider.

Ryung was able to use the specific characteristics of that map to play a style that suits his strengths, and was considered to be very Zerg favoured by many. That's what Starcraft is about man
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
c0sm0naut
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1229 Posts
December 04 2012 01:41 GMT
#154
I think that one month should go by and we should look at rates as a community WITH blizzard

if the rates still show zerg at around 55-60% in both matchups, infestors should take a large nerf. I dont mean something like reducing the HP of the eggs, because that only limits their usefulness in one way. they should completely remove one of it's utilities, or at least make the infestors less suited for a role than another unit of zerg. For example, I think changing infestors burrow movement to be as easily detectable as a ghost, DT, or banshee would be a good move because it would make mutalisks a more viable harassment option in some circumstances. Other ideas from me would be, taking armor off of the morphing infested terran completely in combination with the HP nerf to 80, Making fungal growth unable to stun air units (this is i think the change that would have the greatest effect on the metagame), decreasing the radius of fungal growth to 1.5 and nerfing the damage to 35. Each of these changes alone would have a huge impact probably enough to where we wouldn't need to change anything about T or P in the meantime (maybe considering changing the way interceptors and fungal growth works as well)
Monochromatic
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
United States998 Posts
December 04 2012 02:01 GMT
#155
Would it be possible to see it in different months?

Like September only, or October only.
MC: "Guys I need your support! iam poor make me nerd baller" __________________________________________RIP Violet
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25984 Posts
December 04 2012 02:08 GMT
#156
On December 04 2012 10:41 c0sm0naut wrote:
I think that one month should go by and we should look at rates as a community WITH blizzard

if the rates still show zerg at around 55-60% in both matchups, infestors should take a large nerf. I dont mean something like reducing the HP of the eggs, because that only limits their usefulness in one way. they should completely remove one of it's utilities, or at least make the infestors less suited for a role than another unit of zerg. For example, I think changing infestors burrow movement to be as easily detectable as a ghost, DT, or banshee would be a good move because it would make mutalisks a more viable harassment option in some circumstances. Other ideas from me would be, taking armor off of the morphing infested terran completely in combination with the HP nerf to 80, Making fungal growth unable to stun air units (this is i think the change that would have the greatest effect on the metagame), decreasing the radius of fungal growth to 1.5 and nerfing the damage to 35. Each of these changes alone would have a huge impact probably enough to where we wouldn't need to change anything about T or P in the meantime (maybe considering changing the way interceptors and fungal growth works as well)

Exactly why you have to have a proper discussion with Blizzard and the idea that balanced 50/50 winrates don't necessarily make the game fun

I mean we disagree with Infestors I think, but the approach has some validity I believe. It's the timings that Zerg units come out, that are only made possible by Zerg design that really brings the issue into focus. I mean I consider Infestors as 'feeling' like a High Templar, that you can spam from the midgame and with less downside for overmaking them and a more versatile unit.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
December 04 2012 02:09 GMT
#157
--- Nuked ---
Sandermatt
Profile Joined December 2010
Switzerland1365 Posts
December 04 2012 02:10 GMT
#158
On December 04 2012 09:54 zmansman17 wrote:
Zerg dominating both MUs.



They dominate ZvP with 48% winrate?
c0sm0naut
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1229 Posts
December 04 2012 03:01 GMT
#159
On December 04 2012 11:08 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2012 10:41 c0sm0naut wrote:
I think that one month should go by and we should look at rates as a community WITH blizzard

if the rates still show zerg at around 55-60% in both matchups, infestors should take a large nerf. I dont mean something like reducing the HP of the eggs, because that only limits their usefulness in one way. they should completely remove one of it's utilities, or at least make the infestors less suited for a role than another unit of zerg. For example, I think changing infestors burrow movement to be as easily detectable as a ghost, DT, or banshee would be a good move because it would make mutalisks a more viable harassment option in some circumstances. Other ideas from me would be, taking armor off of the morphing infested terran completely in combination with the HP nerf to 80, Making fungal growth unable to stun air units (this is i think the change that would have the greatest effect on the metagame), decreasing the radius of fungal growth to 1.5 and nerfing the damage to 35. Each of these changes alone would have a huge impact probably enough to where we wouldn't need to change anything about T or P in the meantime (maybe considering changing the way interceptors and fungal growth works as well)

Exactly why you have to have a proper discussion with Blizzard and the idea that balanced 50/50 winrates don't necessarily make the game fun

I mean we disagree with Infestors I think, but the approach has some validity I believe. It's the timings that Zerg units come out, that are only made possible by Zerg design that really brings the issue into focus. I mean I consider Infestors as 'feeling' like a High Templar, that you can spam from the midgame and with less downside for overmaking them and a more versatile unit.


the infestor differs from the HT in that ghost is a viable counter for HT and can be zoned out with fungals before landing EMP. infestors also serve more roles being completely honest. there is a point at which, i can have like 20 ghosts with full energy and HT dont do shit, but i cant think of any ghost count that reliably lets me do that, especially one that is feasible to get to nowdays considering hive tech is coming at 16 min at the latest and zergs aren't sitting on 200/200 armies, they're trading them because they can remake faster with banked resources from an earlier (on average) third base.

this is exactly why i think they need to be changed in at least one way pretty significantly. it needs to lose the catch all feel it has
Owl
Profile Joined April 2005
145 Posts
December 04 2012 03:03 GMT
#160
Seems pretty balanced in Code S when top players have enough time to prepare and are playing bo5 or bo7.
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