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On December 03 2012 22:46 pprrii wrote:
Another funny example of Zerg domination, 3 events where top level of koreans (of each race) were attending
MLG - ZvZ Finals
GSL - ZvZ Finals
IPL - ZvZ Finals
xD
This reminds me of the GomTvT era; for Zerg of course. 4 Terrans in Top 4.
Having said that, I still have this stigma of ZvZ being shit (I just never gave it a chance to begin with, either); but the recent ZvZs aren't so bad to watch.
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TvZ looks legit
No imbalance here
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On December 03 2012 22:46 pprrii wrote:
Another funny example of Zerg domination, 3 events where top level of koreans (of each race) were attending
MLG - ZvZ Finals
GSL - ZvZ Finals
IPL - ZvZ Finals
xD
Interesting sidenote to that, they were all different Zs participating and winning. This isn't a case of "Life beats the crap out of every body!"
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Italy12246 Posts
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On December 03 2012 23:00 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 22:46 pprrii wrote:
Another funny example of Zerg domination, 3 events where top level of koreans (of each race) were attending
MLG - ZvZ Finals
GSL - ZvZ Finals
IPL - ZvZ Finals
xD
Interesting sidenote to that, they were all different Zs participating and winning. This isn't a case of "Life beats the crap out of every body!"
What about Leenock? He was in two of those finals, that seems like a butt kicking to me XD.
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you guys should prepare urselves for the up coming GSL World Tour with ZvZvZ all day lol
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On December 03 2012 22:57 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 22:50 Saechiis wrote:
I think Zerg is advantaged in the marathon tournaments that currently make out most of the tournament scene since they can play standard every game and have a good shot at winning. In terms of player specific preparations I feel Terran can do a lot to even things up, but that's only really the case in long term tournaments like GSL. This is TvZ for the last season of GSL: + Show Spoiler +38.2% Set Winrate for Terran against Zergs (34W 55L) At least for the last season of GSL Terrans were performing extremely bad vs Zerg. Or Zerg were performing really well. If we jump back one more season things looks a lot more balanced with 47% Winrate for Terran vs Zerg (47W 53L)
Even though it's a much smaller sample size, this number is far more accurate imo. Due the closer skill level of the players and higher skill level overall.
I would also be very curious of the percentage of the Terran wins that came from 2 rax.
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Well, we also get to a point where TvZ winrates are carried by very few individuals. (like at IPL5 where only Bomber and Polt where more or less the saving grace for terran), but Protoss is gonna face the same fate. Creator was the only Protoss to win a PvZ series in the last GSL Code S!
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The issue with tournament winrate is that there's a general tendancy towards 50% in the long run, no matter if the MU are imbalanced or not.
This is why it's more clever to judge balance based on top3 or top5.
I think I will post a thread on this issue tonight.
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Good read,
but I am sure this will turn into balance shitfest after page 5
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Thank you for your work. Just one small request: could you please make the numbers for the % winrates a bit bigger? So I/we can read them more easily without enlarging the pic.
And well, it looks like the age of the swarm has come. But lets just kick back and watch a bit more of ZvZ. Don't make hasty balance changes 
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For the OP to say there's nothing special despite the ZvT percentage is kind of silly. He sounds like a Zerg player, considering what he said about ZvP also.
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On December 03 2012 22:30 C[h]ili wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 22:17 tomatriedes wrote:On December 03 2012 22:09 onPHYRE wrote:
Interesting charts. I am not suprised to see P>Z despite all the protoss tears... Many of the wins were Korean protoss (barely) beating foreigner zergs. Looking at the last GSL where the skill level was even says a hell of a lot more about balance- ZvP: 19-10 (65.5%). But this is a too small number of observations, especially since observations are not independent of each other!
Actually it isn't completely. 30 is a "statistically relevant" number. Yes he's 1 off, but that doesn't introduce 15% margin of error. You can draw conclusions on a population of 2 million with a sample of 100 (or even 30). Or 25, depending on who you ask actually.
"Independent of each other" doesn't matter imo since the other games were all played with each set considered 3 matches I believe. Same method of sampling.
But yeah korean zergs didn't go to too many international events over that time i think, and we've seen foreign and korean balance be skewed away from each other before.
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On December 03 2012 23:22 xTrim wrote:
Good read,
but I am sure this will turn into balance shitfest after page 5
Of course it will, because balance is currently shit. 
Personally, I'd much rather be talking about how awesome the GSL finals were, and IPL as a whole.
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On December 03 2012 23:24 Doodsmack wrote:
For the OP to say there's nothing special despite the ZvT percentage is kind of silly. He sounds like a Zerg player, considering what he said about ZvP also.
I'm a Terran and I don't think I need to comment on the TvZ data, it speaks for itself.
I just mentioned TvP because it really stood out that most wins come from the absolute top tier Terrans, while the MU seems to be Protoss favored for the rest. The other wins/loses of the other MU are pretty evenly distributed between all levels of players.
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Not surprising for the TvZ result. That being said, I'm glad to see most matches are balanced. Remember if these are pooled from tournament top players will influence the results as they will have more zerg matches.
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prime examples of misleading winrates imo. tvz is obvious of course but the tvp and pvz winrates arent really showing the truth.
i guess blizzard does a good job with their asymmetrical balance concept...
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I definately believe zerg is too strong now but you can't make that conclusion from data like this.
Note that almost every tournament has a qualification. Thus race representation is not equal and the results will always gravitate towards 50/50 for each matchup.. If terran is underpowered there will simply be less terrans which will be better players though and on average they will have 50/50 results..
Qualification procedures tend to predate the tournaments by quite a big margin though, for example you qualify quite a long time ago for a MLG, IPL or GSL. This means the qualification balance can be quite different than the balance during the tournament, for example terran was overrepresented in GSL even after they got underpowered because there were so many code S terrans before. Since the GSL makes it easier to qualify if you were code S the racial makeup of the GSL lags behind the current balance.
All in all this results in these figures only giving a current trend and not saying anything about actual current balance. Zerg has definately gained ground recently but based on these data alone that could very well be just because the tournaments where flooded with less skilled terrans who got to qualify because T was too strong before.
Of course we also know racial representation in the recent tournaments which should really be combined with these data. Zerg placing so highly in qualification is a much better indicator they are overpowered now than zerg actually winning more than 50% in the tournaments itself.
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EPT
