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On November 26 2012 20:56 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 08:20 mTwRINE wrote:
With 4 Gate you have defense>offense>tech>defense rock paper scissor. Without 4 Gate you only have techroute rock paper scissor.
So its way better the way it is now. Maybe in theory. There was no such rock paper scissor with 4 gate wars. Offense always had the upper hand. Even if you somehow defend, you never get to leave outside your base because the failed 4-gater will leave the game. A frustrating and masochistic way of winning, I'd say. Edit: Is my memory failing? I rarely succeeded nor saw pros succeeding in defensive 4 gate. But I get to see quotes as this Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 08:29 Shebuha wrote:
"the better player won almost 100% of the time."
Well, that's true a lot of the time, but what's more true is that the player who plays better in a given game will win. In PvP the player who defensive 4 gated won almost 100% of the time against the aggressive 4 gater, and the teching player won a lot of the time against the defensive 4 gater.
??
Defensive four gate got you a slight edge vs. a full four gate, but you're right, the offensive player can camp the ramp and the ramp vision was higher then so it was easier to see your opponent coming down.
Alot of people making those rock paper scissor comments are only thinking about the TDA matchup where you can't really camp the choke quite as hard since its a two forcefield choke.
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Who says you can't still 4 gate? It's obviously not as viable as it was but I know GM's who 4 gate pvp on a semi-regular basis and we've seen modified versions at top level play to (I think it was Hero who tried it vs Rain last season? I could be wrong). At a mid-master level I still 4 gate a fair amount and PvP is by far my best match up.
Just because there is ways to hard stop it doesn't mean it's totally gone.
Edit: Should clarify, this is why it's better now, there is so many more options that it makes a type of 4 gate just one strategy in a list of many that can work given the right circumstance and execution, vs before where 4gate was just all you did.
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I prefer PvP now-adays over the old 4-gate styles. The main flaw of PvP now is the prevalence of robotics units, especially colossus in big numbers making attacking into certain positions very unappealing.
Lets just wait for Hots bringing in new units, especially the tempest potentially breaking colossus in large numbers!
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I like the actual state of PvP right now, even tho 4 gate was fun some years ago... 4 gate isn't as strong as it was before, and even now, you can't really win with 4 gate against Zerg/Terran anymore...
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Seriously, combatex just nearly beat parting at PvP, I'm sorry i feel that's good reason to bump this thread, I don't know how i feel about a matchup where such a thing can happen, seriously what the hell!
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On November 27 2012 18:55 NexCa wrote:
I like the actual state of PvP right now, even tho 4 gate was fun some years ago... 4 gate isn't as strong as it was before, and even now, you can't really win with 4 gate against Zerg/Terran anymore...
watch some gsl
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It's terrible when in a matchup both players do always the same thing. Now there is a variety of openings such as blink, phoenixes, etc. Of course lategame is very annoying, but at least early/mid game is funny, and the majority of PvPs finishes before it even with the 4 gate being less common.
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On November 30 2012 19:32 willyallthewei wrote:
Seriously, combatex just nearly beat parting at PvP, I'm sorry i feel that's good reason to bump this thread, I don't know how i feel about a matchup where such a thing can happen, seriously what the hell!
Did you even watch the games?
Are you mental?
Do you know why do we have BO3 in tournaments?
Top GM player taking a game off one of the best players in the world is so absurd to you, that it means something's wrong with the matchup? And what does it have to do with 4 gate?! (Nothing. Don't bother replying, it's just FYI)
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On November 25 2012 08:36 HolydaKing wrote:
Absolutely no...
Besides Colossi wars i think that PvP nowadays is getting more and more entertaining. I love the phoenix wars which somehow start to appear in professional games lately.
Yes! The matchup is awesome. Fast 3 warpgate allins, two base blink stalker, phoenix wars and even things like 1 gate expands are all possible to do nowadays, and it's all very entertaining to watch. Not to mention proxy robo builds.
But even those games that end in war of the worlds can be entertaining. Players seems to have realised that crazy colossi splitting and stutterstepping is a necessary thing to practice, and they have discovered that warp prisms are great. Such games - when executed with skill and multitasking - are exciting to watch.
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On November 25 2012 08:19 RedZ wrote:
no
User was warned for this post
I have to agree. Just go back and watch old PvP, it was boring as hell.
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Easy answer, NO.
4 gate vs 4 gate is extremely boring to watch. Remember when expanding in pvp was a shocker? Now we expand all the time which allows more variance. Ofc it sometimes goes colo wars which at least dustin browder has acknowledged as stagnant (sorry I don't have the source. It's in a recent interview somewhere. I think Blizzard's recent tourny in China). Best case situation for pvp, colo are rarely used and we get to see very diverse compositions every game.
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On December 01 2012 03:41 Asmodeusx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 19:32 willyallthewei wrote:
Seriously, combatex just nearly beat parting at PvP, I'm sorry i feel that's good reason to bump this thread, I don't know how i feel about a matchup where such a thing can happen, seriously what the hell! Did you even watch the games? Are you mental? Do you know why do we have BO3 in tournaments? Top GM player taking a game off one of the best players in the world is so absurd to you, that it means something's wrong with the matchup? And what does it have to do with 4 gate?! (Nothing. Don't bother replying, it's just FYI)
I don't need to know much more than the fact that a guy whose first off mid GM on NA ladder nearly beat a professional korean player who won WCS and trains in a pro house day and night with strategy advice from the best starcraft minds in the world.
Are you one of those mediocre low-GM or high masters players who actually think that this makes you good (or even decent)?
Sorry if i sound like an ass, but any game where a mid gm NA player with little to no tournament experience can take a standard game off a top flight korean pro, there's something wrong with that game.
It should be a basic, fundamental part of game design (one that's clearly present in Broodwar) where, multitasking and control should trump everything unless you are even in it, that is my belief. Unless i can match both your APM and precision, i should not stand a chance, its the moment that those two things are within a small disparity, that we move on to understanding and strategy.
A matchup dictated by strategic choice so much IMO is a bad matchup, it leaves things to chance.
It has to do w/ the fourgate because when each side has exactly the same amount of probes, the same warp in cool downs and equal units, the stronger player prevails 99% of the time.
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On November 30 2012 19:43 QzYSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 18:55 NexCa wrote:
I like the actual state of PvP right now, even tho 4 gate was fun some years ago... 4 gate isn't as strong as it was before, and even now, you can't really win with 4 gate against Zerg/Terran anymore... watch some gsl
Beating a terran with a 4 gate because he decided to go 3 CC off 2 marines has nothing to do with 4 gate being so strong. That's just protoss' cheesiest and earliest allin vs a mkp level greedy build.
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no, but it's still a trash matchup. The "tactical wheel" part of it is really frustrating to play as a player... You open robo, you die to stargate. You open stargate, you struggle vs blink builds. You open twilight, you struggle vs robo. You open pressure, you die to so on and so on...
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I think that PvP now it's a most random MU. 1 Mistake can lose your game.
About 4gate.. I disagree with you, now PVP its much better . I love phoenix, blink vs blink fights and very very early colossus pushes.
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Right now PvP is one of the most fun matchups to watch because of all the safe viable diverse tech paths. You've obviously got your risky tech paths as well. Example of a safe tech path: Stargates. They are practically useless in every other mu, but can be used with great efficiency in PvP. Then there is robo tech and gateway tech all extremely useful.
It's better without a doubt in the world.
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I personally enjoyed watching the 4 gate era, but claiming there is less skill now is wrong.
MC peaked in May 2011, so perhaps 4 gates favored him, but since then there have been 5
higher peaks by Squirtle, Oz, Tear, Inca and Creator.
The best PvP players now have higher ELOs than the best during the 4 gate era.
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EPT
