Having a matchup being entirely dominated by single strat is NEVER ever a good thing. Balanced? Maybe. But it makes everything completely stale and horrible to watch.

sabas123

Netherlands3122 Posts

November 25 2012 17:23 GMT

#143

On November 26 2012 00:38 Antares_ wrote:
Right now, also a better player always wins. Having an ability to choose a right build for right map against particular opponent, is a big part of skill.

but when its basicly becomes a coinflip it doesn't.

fighter2_40

United States420 Posts

November 25 2012 17:29 GMT

#144

Nope. From games that I watch, pvp has been way more dynamic and forgiving than the 4 gate vs 4 gate days.

Also, as a master protoss player, it is of my personal belief that PvP now is way better.

Asmodeusx

286 Posts

November 25 2012 17:33 GMT

#145

None of those high win rates happened because of 4 gate.

There are no hard counter strategies, unless you don't scout and don't build robo for 10 minutes or something stupid like that.

Try understanding the matchup first before trying to change it.

willyallthewei

United States265 Posts

November 26 2012 02:44 GMT

#146

On November 26 2012 02:33 Asmodeusx wrote:
None of those high win rates happened because of 4 gate.

There are no hard counter strategies, unless you don't scout and don't build robo for 10 minutes or something stupid like that.

Try understanding the matchup first before trying to change it.

Oh, so if you gate robo gate --> expand, and i go 4 gate phoenix, that is not a hard counter?

Okay. You are welcomed to play me anytime.

zEnVy

United States446 Posts

November 26 2012 03:16 GMT

#147

On November 25 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:

Show nested quote +

correct.

short games are boring. prefer longer games with lots of small micro battles over one micro battle that decides game in first 10 mins.

Have you seen a 20 minute PvP? It's just a giant colossi vs colossi a move and whoever has more colossi wins the game in one giant 20 second fight with almost no micro.

magnaflow

Canada1521 Posts

November 26 2012 03:23 GMT

#148

On November 25 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:

Show nested quote +

correct.

short games are boring. prefer longer games with lots of small micro battles over one micro battle that decides game in first 10 mins.

I don't know what you are watching but PvP usually ends with 1 battle, regardless of the length of the match.

Stalker/zealot micro over collosus wars any day IMO

To3-Knee

Canada100 Posts

November 26 2012 03:40 GMT

#149

Even if 4gate was more consistent with bringing forth the better player at micro, there are other aspects of the game to consider as well. SC2 isn't just all about micro and I would prefer to see some decision making come into play at high level games than to see who can command their units best. It's great to see amazing control, but it isn't the only reason I like the game.

Jimmysc2

United States18 Posts

November 26 2012 04:04 GMT

#150

There's two parts of Starcraft, one is called macro and one is called micro, also the longer the game lasts the higher the chance of the better player winning will be. That is all.

ZjiublingZ

United Arab Emirates439 Posts

November 26 2012 04:12 GMT

#151

On November 26 2012 13:04 TeAL_ wrote:
There's two parts of Starcraft, one is called macro and one is called micro, also the longer the game lasts the higher the chance of the better player winning will be. That is all.

There is also strategy. This game would be a lot more boring if the player with the better micro/macro always won.

Carbonthief

United States289 Posts

November 26 2012 04:42 GMT

#152

I'm just not seeing these hard counters people talk about when discussing pvp. I mean there are a few obvious ones like dt beats phoenix, but for the most part all openings are viable against almost all other openings. Some openings leave you in a bad position vs other openings, but that's far from being a hard counter. For example, I have heard people claim phoenix beats robo, but I have seen robo beat phoenix all the time. I have seen pro's open 3 gate robo, and then when they scouted phoenix just skipped immortals for collosus, and have been able to either do a push or expand really fast. There are a ton of options, and new openings being explored all the time, but even more interesting than the openings themselves are the transitions and reactions to opponents builds.

No, pvp isn't a pure micro fest anymore, that's not a bad thing though. There's a good deal more strategy in the matchup now. It makes the matchup way more interesting to watch and play, and gives strategic players ways to outthink an opponent who may outclass them in mechanics, and that is a completely legitimate way to win.

TeslasPigeon

464 Posts

November 26 2012 05:07 GMT

#153

On November 26 2012 13:42 Carbonthief wrote:
I'm just not seeing these hard counters people talk about when discussing pvp.

The most notable I can think of, was Seed vs MC GSL finals. If I recall correctly, MC lost every game due to build orders (hard countering). I believe the actual tournament (game play) was under 90 minutes. It was ridiculously short and pathetic moment showcasing the severe lack of quality SC2 can have at moments.

Ender2701

United States581 Posts

November 26 2012 05:26 GMT

#154

As a player I kinda preferred the days before phoenix builds the most. With the introduction of phoenix builds PvP has gotten worse imo. Phoenix vs Phoenix is really random and not that fun, and Phoenix vs anything else tends to be one of those games where both players max before they attack.

The time of blink, robo, and some expanding builds was the most fun imo.

Oh and BW PvP was way better than any Sc2 PvP so far T_T

JackReacher

United States197 Posts

November 26 2012 05:38 GMT

#155

4Gate is still very much viable, it's just a PART of the metagame now instead of being "the metagame" in and of itself. Greedy/tech builds are popular in PvP, often one player will go a bit more "safe" and be at a disadvantage in the long run against the greedier player, however these "greedy" openings that get a quicker tech or a better economy often are not "4 Gate safe", so it still holds an important place in a matchup as something that you have to account for IF you want your build to be safe; it's a strategy that you can go to as a means of punishing someone who is trying to, say, delay their 2nd Gate too much or skipping/getting late Sentries in favor of getting their tech out quicker, getting a quicker Nexus or something to that effect and getting an advantage on you in a BoX series. If someone has a tendency to go quick 2nd gas 1 Gate robo and getting a better Colossus count that leads into a dificult econ advantage and you recognize it, you can sometimes 4Gate him and just get a build order win. Essentially, it's not dead because its mere existence serves the purpose of keeping players honest in PvP.

As far as build order rock paper scissors, it's not necessarily like that in PvP; the Robo/Stargate/Twilight counter triangle is more of a soft-counter relationship. Blink against Robo expand is very map-dependent and there are many ways it can play out with no clear "winner" where you could say "he has an inherent advantage because Robo counters Twilight" or vice versa; the same goes for Phoenix vs. Blink openers; it's definitely not a huge advantage for the blink player, Phoenixes can definitely work and get out a faster expansion. The only real super hard-counter (tech-wise) is going for an unsafe Stargate opener and just flat out never getting detection and losing to a fast DT build, but most people going Stargate get a Robo down either before their 3rd Gateway or shortly after, because one of the advantage of Phoenix openings is keeping his gas probe count in check, expanding quicker and possibly ending up with higher Colossus count often off of double Robo. You can't simply say "Robo > Twilight > Stargate > Robo"; it's nowhere near as simple as that.

Leetley

1796 Posts

November 26 2012 08:46 GMT

#156

Let it evolve... it will certainly do when HotS comes out.

GreyKnight

United States4720 Posts

November 26 2012 08:51 GMT

#157

the collosus is just boring, it needs to go.

SigmaoctanusIV

United States3313 Posts

November 26 2012 08:53 GMT

#158

Well seeing how PvP is still a deciding factor in openings, Do you like PvP still? it has changed because people don't do it anymore doesn't mean it still doesn't have it's potency. Also 4 gates are pretty good in HOTS too mothership core giving vision help you snipe off sentries

-Celestial-

United Kingdom3867 Posts

November 26 2012 10:43 GMT

#159

On November 26 2012 14:07 TeslasPigeon wrote:

Show nested quote +

Oh god I remember that.

I was hyped up for a proper showcase of how much PvP had improved from 4-gate all day, every day. Finally putting to rest the perception it was literally all about 4-gates and mass colossus.

Instead we got that...mess...

Regardless, no. Its better now. Especially with stuff like Phoenix builds (♥ Phoenix).

InVerno

258 Posts

November 26 2012 10:52 GMT

#160

Just look at HotS PvP, actually is the best mu by far ... in WoL maybe the're some flaws, but the next future seems bright and very enjoyable either for players and spectators.