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On November 26 2012 19:52 InVerno wrote:
Just look at HotS PvP, actually is the best mu by far ... in WoL maybe the're some flaws, but the next future seems bright and very enjoyable either for players and spectators.
Oh definitely, HotS PvP looks nothing short of amazing right now, can't wait untill builds become more fleshed out.
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I love PvP microbattles, but a 4gate only meta is awful.
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Immortals, phoenix, blink stalkers, collossi, long macro games requiring so much thought, micro and macro.
And you want to go back to 4-gate roll the dice. Why???????? PvP is SO much more interesting now, it's actually one of my favourite match-ups to watch (I don't play anymore but I was diamond Protoss, with PvP my best match up, I rarely 4 gated and tried immortal or stargate builds.)
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No.
First volley off of a stalker = win
Missing a probe nearby = loss
1 second late warpgate research = loss
If not that, the rest were cannos and/or proxy zealots. Absolutely DO NOT WANT to go back to those days.
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On November 25 2012 08:20 mTwRINE wrote:
With 4 Gate you have defense>offense>tech>defense rock paper scissor. Without 4 Gate you only have techroute rock paper scissor.
So its way better the way it is now.
Maybe in theory. There was no such rock paper scissor with 4 gate wars. Offense always had the upper hand. Even if you somehow defend, you never get to leave outside your base because the failed 4-gater will leave the game. A frustrating and masochistic way of winning, I'd say.
Edit: Is my memory failing? I rarely succeeded nor saw pros succeeding in defensive 4 gate. But I get to see quotes as this
On November 25 2012 08:29 Shebuha wrote:
"the better player won almost 100% of the time."
Well, that's true a lot of the time, but what's more true is that the player who plays better in a given game will win. In PvP the player who defensive 4 gated won almost 100% of the time against the aggressive 4 gater, and the teching player won a lot of the time against the defensive 4 gater.
??
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i think PvP is one of the better matchups nowadays
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Colossi wars is extremely boring from a spectator standpoint (imho of course). I am however glad that PvP is not all about 1 base all ins anymore.
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I like playing PvP nowadays which I didn't before. If it's more fun to spectate or not is hard to me to answer because what makes the MU interesting for me is to study the play and choices of both players.
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I don't want to go back to 4gate fest days. PvP now is a matchup of finess, mind and balls of steel (Much like ZvZ btw). Unlike non mirror matchups you can't rely on assymetry to play greedy, every expansion must be thought out, every move can have big consequences. As for the Colossus wars, it was shown that more Colossi =/= instant win and it's still a battle of positioning and army composition.
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it was better with 4gate in my opinion because i didnt auto lose from going robo against his stargate, i autoloss by having worse unit control
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Yeah I like the way it used to be better than how it is now. Change it back IMO.
...wait what thread am I in? I didn't read any of the words here including the title but I saw "was" and "better" and I definitely agree with those words in literally any context of human experience
(seriously this thread is defeatist as hell. why do B/O coinflip and 4gate have to be our only options?)
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On November 26 2012 20:52 usethis2 wrote:
No.
First volley off of a stalker = win
Missing a probe nearby = loss
1 second late warpgate research = loss
If not that, the rest were cannos and/or proxy zealots. Absolutely DO NOT WANT to go back to those days.
Yeah, I'm sure you were playing at a level where each stalker shot was well calculated and potentially game-deciding.
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On November 27 2012 03:02 c0sm0naut wrote:
it was better with 4gate in my opinion because i didnt auto lose from going robo against his stargate, i autoloss by having worse unit control
The autoloss thing is no longer true, there's a couple of early stalker poke timings that scout the tech... Although that's coming from a person who stargates every game anyway so take that with a grain of salt.
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On November 25 2012 08:36 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 08:34 astor wrote:On November 25 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 25 2012 08:19 RedZ wrote:
no correct. short games are boring. prefer longer games with lots of small micro battles over one micro battle that decides game in first 10 mins. show me a game of sc2 with a lot of small battles, sc2 is all about big endgame 200/200 battle -> end Jjakji vs Leenock on taldarim altar a year ago
what does it say when the best example you can think of is a year ago?
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On November 27 2012 07:24 laoji wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 08:36 JJH777 wrote:On November 25 2012 08:34 astor wrote:On November 25 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 25 2012 08:19 RedZ wrote:
no correct. short games are boring. prefer longer games with lots of small micro battles over one micro battle that decides game in first 10 mins. show me a game of sc2 with a lot of small battles, sc2 is all about big endgame 200/200 battle -> end Jjakji vs Leenock on taldarim altar a year ago what does it say when the best example you can think of is a year ago?
Slivko vs Grubby Game 4 this weekend.
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do you want only protoss with good micro to be rewarded and the macro and startegy tosses be left to die or would you prefer a scene where everyone has an equal chance?
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I'm glad that PvP has changed. 4 Gate is still a viable build and you can beat players who doesn't pay attention but tech builds are the "beauty" of PvP. Blink micro, phoenix multitasking, etc. ... love it.
But the PvP lategame colossi wars are just stupid, I must admit. I hope the tempest will be a solution for this problem.
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Stuff a long time ago is always better than what we have now... 
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A ridiculous statement... There are multiple Protoss who have very high win rates in PvP or look very strong in it in its current form. It will only be better in HOTS. As much as I have a dislike of Kespa players due to their overzealous fans, Rain is a beast in that match and has shown how you can win through greater skill. 4 gate allowed for much larger upsets if you messed up somewhere.
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On November 27 2012 07:24 laoji wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 08:36 JJH777 wrote:On November 25 2012 08:34 astor wrote:On November 25 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On November 25 2012 08:19 RedZ wrote:
no correct. short games are boring. prefer longer games with lots of small micro battles over one micro battle that decides game in first 10 mins. show me a game of sc2 with a lot of small battles, sc2 is all about big endgame 200/200 battle -> end Jjakji vs Leenock on taldarim altar a year ago what does it say when the best example you can think of is a year ago?
It means it has been happening for a long time and those huge 200/200 battles that people complain about are actually going away and not continuing.
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EPT
