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On November 13 2012 14:56 Turbo.Tactics wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote:![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/4/4b/Restoration.gif) Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) " brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this. Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios. Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out...
In brood war Restoration was single target for 50?(correct me if I'm wrong here) Energy that was cast from the Medic.
Mind you, none of the things it countered were AoE except maelstrom and ensnare, both of which were much smaller than current fungal. Maelstrom was the only one that actually stopped a unit(besides lockdown which was single target) Ensnare just slowed by 75%?(Again correct me if I'm wrong on the % here lol) Plague was "sort of" AoE(it migrated to nearby mechanical units ;p) but that's an entirely different thing anyways, not really comparable to fungal.
Now with all that said, Restoration would have to be AoE(obviously smaller than fungal in radius or it'd make fungal kinda useless) and it would be very clunky unless it "did" other things, just like the brood war Restoration did. ;p
It also wouldn't remedy the problems protoss are having with fungal growth, or hell even the problems zerg have in ZvZ with fungal growth. Plus I very much doubt that they'll add a new medivac upgrade(or whatever, but medivac does seem the best place for this upgrade) in WoL. If this was the path they took as a solution we'd see no change till Heart of the Swarm. Somehow I doubt most people want to wait that long.
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Is this really about power level? I mean ghosts were nerfed because they were a do it all caster, when it's supposed to be a support unit. The infestor right now counters everything (air, land, massive, everything). Shouldn't they just make it hard-counter less so that it's hard-counters would prevent the massing and boring games that's caused by it? Given that infestor/broodlord seems to be the main source of complaints shouldn't infestors be weakened versus air more than anything else? That would mean that terran could deal with the composition a lot better and so could protoss. However nerfing infestor AA would mean that while versus terran infestor/ultra would still be viable (NP if they go BCs), that composition would be useless versus protoss. Hence nerfing infestor AA would require a buff to hydras. Given that hydras melt to siege tanks and collosi that seems reasonable and making another unit viable would only mean more variety which would make games more fun to watch.
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The infestor is way too versatile. Its all purpose. Does everything, for a cheap cost. Make it less versatile.
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Honestly if infestors get changed, Blizzard is going to have to do something to fix Zerg. Theres a reason we rely so heavily on the infestor. Zergs rely so heavily on infestors to transition from mid to late game where the game is going to really break depending on the course Blizzard wants to take.
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For me the best way to balance it out is :
You can't kill units with it and becomes projectile. Seems reasnoble to me you can't turn around games because you have 5infestors in the making who kill 50supply of units. The dmg can be dodged so skilled players will beat bad players and also if Zerg player lands it on time it will show the skill of the player. The only thing i see which might make problem is spells like blink but if they buff the speed of the projectile i think it would be fine.
EDIT : Also i think energy nerf should be ok. Like If you have 4-5 festors you need to decide should i spam fungal or spam terrans. If they make it 1 fungal per infestor massing only casters will be shit.
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On November 13 2012 17:33 transcendent one wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 17:29 Shinta) wrote:
I think this whole thread is ridiculous... Don't change infestors at all = the best case scenario (y)
Most other thought of changes would require either a zerg buff or more zerg units.
Making a major change like that to the infestor would break the game -.- the reason for this thread is that infestor breaks the game as it is now. also everyone knows that zerg would get a buff if infestor got nerfed hard. however if it got slight nerfs no buffs would be required, it's your time to accept that.
No... the whole reason for this thread is that some people hate the infestor.
You want to make a significant change to the infestor?
1) make the cost 3 supply
2) nerf the infestor
2a) make aoe smaller
2b) make eggs same hp as IT
3) buff the infestor.
3a) make aoe range longer
3b) increase ms of infestor
I think this unnecessary change will be sufficient to calm you guys down.
Edit: all other proposed nerfs suggested in this thread seem to be completely ridiculous, and wouldn't contribute to the game at all imho.
On November 13 2012 18:08 Severus_ wrote:
For me the best way to balance it out is :
You can't kill units with it and becomes projectile. Seems reasnoble to me you can't turn around games because you have 5infestors in the making who kill 50supply of units. The dmg can be dodged so skilled players will beat bad players and also if Zerg player lands it on time it will show the skill of the player. The only thing i see which might make problem is spells like blink but if they buff the speed of the projectile i think it would be fine.
EDIT : Also i think energy nerf should be ok. Like If you have 4-5 festors you need to decide should i spam fungal or spam terrans. If they make it 1 fungal per infestor massing only casters will be shit.
If you can't kill units with it, it becomes a projectile, and the energy is nerfed, the infestor will be 100% obsolete. Used in about 5% of all zerg games.
Having it become a projectile is the only viable option of those 3
Can't kill units is an interesting idea to force it into a support unit position, but things significant buffs need to also be suggested. Reducing energy to allow only 1 fungal will make the infestor near worthless, and never used.
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find something else and dont balance the game around a broken skill
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Northern Ireland23783 Posts
On November 13 2012 14:56 Turbo.Tactics wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote:Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) " brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this. Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios. Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out...
Wasn't phase shield for the Protoss something similar to this in HoTS, and apparently it didn't see much use and got scrapped?
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I think they could just remove Infested Terran, make Neural Parasite standard, and then buff Hydras (or make them cheaper). That would mean you still keep Fungal Growth along the Hive tech path, but you don't just get to spam one type of unit to do everything. It would force more diverse compositions and actual financial commitment to ranged ground-to-air units.
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On November 13 2012 18:00 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 14:56 Turbo.Tactics wrote:On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote:Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) " brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this. Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios. Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out... In brood war Restoration was single target for 50?(correct me if I'm wrong here) Energy that was cast from the Medic. Mind you, none of the things it countered were AoE except maelstrom and ensnare, both of which were much smaller than current fungal. Maelstrom was the only one that actually stopped a unit(besides lockdown which was single target) Ensnare just slowed by 75%?(Again correct me if I'm wrong on the % here lol) Plague was "sort of" AoE(it migrated to nearby mechanical units ;p) but that's an entirely different thing anyways, not really comparable to fungal. Now with all that said, Restoration would have to be AoE(obviously smaller than fungal in radius or it'd make fungal kinda useless) and it would be very clunky unless it "did" other things, just like the brood war Restoration did. ;p It also wouldn't remedy the problems protoss are having with fungal growth, or hell even the problems zerg have in ZvZ with fungal growth. Plus I very much doubt that they'll add a new medivac upgrade(or whatever, but medivac does seem the best place for this upgrade) in WoL. If this was the path they took as a solution we'd see no change till Heart of the Swarm. Somehow I doubt most people want to wait that long.
Uhhh, you need to get your facts straight about BW plague. It was straight up AoE exactly how you describe maelstrom / Ensnare (put plague debuff on every target hit) and would do 300 damage as a DOT on the target unless it was removed by restoration or the target dropped below 4 HP (it was 3 damage per tick but couldn't kill the unit. Thus, a unit could wind up with 1, 2, or 3 HP at the end of the plague.) (on protoss, it would damage hull but not shields) And it didn't "spread" either.
Just chiming in about fact checking, don't mind me.
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On November 13 2012 20:38 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 14:56 Turbo.Tactics wrote:On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote:Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) " brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this. Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios. Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out... Wasn't phase shield for the Protoss something similar to this in HoTS, and apparently it didn't see much use and got scrapped?
No, it actually got scrapped because it countered Fungal way too hard, and didn't see any of use against other abilities. At least, that is what Blizzard said in one of their posts before changing the Oracle, as explanation why they didn't like the Phase Shield.
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On November 13 2012 18:04 ReachTheSky wrote:
The infestor is way too versatile. Its all purpose. Does everything, for a cheap cost. Make it less versatile.
It's almost like marines just it cost gas and is tier2.
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Here is an old idea of mine i posted before.
Definition of the problem
+ Show Spoiler +For the zerg units I feel like the infestor itself makes it so that allot of units cant show the full potential . Here is something From a previous post of mine of the problem “As the game functions right now the problem with fungal It’s not about that the ability itself but the advantage being to advance thru one tech tree without taking any major risk. What we have to remember fungal growth is one of the ability that have changed the most since the launch of sc2. The changes was done initially done to give zerg a better response to handling Protoss armored units. I think everyone agrees on that handling allot of the late game protoss composition without fungals would be impossible. The problem here is that the fungal when first presented had a low damage output and a long rotting effect(it was also a missile attack if remember it correctly). When increasing the damage to handle protoss ground units more effectively it lead to a different problem that is present now. This is also why these kinds of big changes on abilities should not be done often as the effect of the changes can lead to different problems in the future. The problem that has occurred is the fugal effectives off handling air units. I think people agree on that choosing different unit composition should lead to different advantages and disadvantages. One unit should not be the answer to everything. The following logic was presented from blizzard when nerfing ghost: + Show Spoiler +"Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic
We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal.
While we like to see creative and innovative use of units, we felt that in this case Snipe was becoming too effective against zerg’s most expensive units. When adjusting the ability, we tried to settle on a number that would allow using Snipe to remain a viable tactic, though not as powerful as it is now. With this change, brood lords will fall in ten casts of Snipe rather than six (taking into account health regeneration), while an ultralisk will die in 21 casts, up from 11. This also significantly increases the number of ghosts and stockpiled energy needed to pull this tactic off, which we feel confident about because, previously, terran players rarely needed to consider the energy on their ghosts units.
“
(http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4448820/Situation_Report_Patch_143-2_10_2012)
The exact logic and be applied to fungal growth. Infesters are able to counter most options every other race can present. Previously a well executed air attack from protoss could force hydras if the zerg couldn’t handel it with spore crawlers and queens. Blizzard further patched the spore crawlers rooting time to make it easier for zergs. After the infester changed combined with people figuring out the effectiveness off fungal u could now bypass hydras completely without any problems at all. U end up going to the infesters tech which u would have gone for anyway. The opponent is no longer able to force u do adjust your play with his air play and can comfortably play as u wanted to do . Instead it should be choice of going hydras or doing a good defend with queens and spores. IF u wish to skip hydras/coroupters and take the risk to defend air only with queens and spores u should be rewarded with being able to go infesters. Currently there is no risk att all since the infesters with fungal combined with infested terran counters air units. Fungal growth is not game breaking with any means or overpowered but it does give a unfair advantage to zerg . I believe infesters effectives against air units should be addressed . There should be a bigger risk of going infesters for zerg since the other lair tech choices presents risk factors that seem to be lacking in the infesters. This problem becomes more apparent in late game where the fungal ability is used to both shut down the ground and air army. Making you rely less on your corrupters. Infested terran used to supplement the lack of attacking units which allows u to have a higher supply of infesters. This is my take on it and its only an opinion and by no means facts. I believe people have different opinions in this subject and its more beneficial to present them that trashing down other people opinions. With the hots beta out now I think it’s a good time to find other solution to supplement the role that fungal growth gives now. In wings of liberty its made sense to use infesters to address the issue zerg hade with protos but with the hots beta I hope they try to find other ways.
My suggestion is to change the fungal growth completely to a mass corruption spell. The abilty will work ass following: spawns swamp pool in the target area. Units/building 1.5 radius(believe it’s the same range as blinding cloud) will take 20% more damage. The damage increase can be adjusted and if it should work on buildings and your own units.
The idea here is to increase the skill cap for the area control and have an ability that by itself isn’t good but synergize with the other units well. The concept of space control should work similar to the creep spread. As players don’t want to fight when they are on creep they would not like to take a fight if there units are in the clouded area. In that sense u can put this ability down to force your opponent to reposition but it’s their choice if they want to engage with less favorable position or a 20% more damage taken. Fungal growth in its current form forces the engement without any opportunity to retreat.
Overall this spell should work better with the current zerg units and allow hydras,swarmhost and viper be more favorable to use. At the same time combining any of these units with the infesters would make them more effective.
Poll: Is the change worth testing out in the beta?No (4) 100% Yes (0) 0% 4 total votes Your vote: Is the change worth testing out in the beta? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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Your suggestion is horrible couse it would leave zerg with ONE aoe in form of melee range banelings.
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So long as Infested Terrans are nerfed well enough, I just don't see anything else being dangerous about the infestor. Even chain fungals.
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Reminder: if fungal growth is changed to not do enormous damage reliably, you have to buff:
-the hydralisk
-the mutalisk
-the roach
-the zergling
...
basically all the units that have idiotic stats and can't cost-effectively fight without fungal DPS assisting
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I voted solely for making Fungal Growth a projectile. One thing I feel Starcraft 2 lacks is back and forth play between players.
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Well this thread seems to have become a place where people post their ideas on how to change the infestor so here's my suggestion.
Nerfs
Fungal - remove the damage and the root, make it just an AoE snare.
Infested Terran - Increase the energy cost from 25 to 50.
Buffs
Infested Terran - When they die, they explode causing an AoE damage over time effect pretty much identical to the damage component of current fungal growth.
Before you start rage typing about how insanely OP that might be, keep in mind a few key points:
1. There would be half as many infested terrans due to the cost being doubled. This is a massive nerf the the tank-y-ness issue and their raw dps out put.
2. Infested terran's move at a snails pace. They are easy to walk away from and the snare value of fungal could be tuned to just the right amount where player skill on both sides can effect how much damage the combination of spells does.
3. You might say, wait, even at 50 energy, this means you could cause the AoE damage effect more times than you could when it is part of the 75 energy fungal growth! But remeber this AoE damage, just like modern Fungal or Storm, doesn't overlap. So getting hit with it multiple times just means the duration timer starts over again with no increase in damage per second done. More importantly, it could now be dodged by running from the ITs before they die. Its up to the Zerg player to force you into a spot where you can't avoid them, or to use them to force you to run away when they don't want to fight you in that position.
The result - both spells are weakened from their current state, yet both still have a role and feel threatening. Each spell has a more directed purpose: fungal is a debuff, IT's are a positional damage source. The effect of each spell can be mitigated by the opponent's micro. Zerg still has an AoE alternative to banelings and ultras. IT's are still powerful when you can force your opponent to fight them, but less so in mid map engagements. And if any of these changes end up being too severe of a nerf, the strength of the fungal snare, IT explosion, or core IT health/dps could be adjusted independently to make sure the Infestor is still a desirable unit.
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Remove smart cast, i guess it sounds like a degrade in terms of "evolving sc2" but i feel that most problems would be solved or at least fixed a little. But i guess this would never happen since it would make sc2 not very noob friendly which is Blizzards target market.
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Please add the option of increased energy cost of Infested terrans. I think they are the real problem with the unit. Zerg needs fungal imo but the spawning free armies at such a rapid pace is silly.
IMO Infested Terrans should cost 35 energy. It means Infestors can only make 2 upon creation and they can only make 5 at max energy instead of 8.
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EPT
