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One of the problems I have always had with fungal growth is how it produces and instantaneous swing in advantage to zerg that cant be microed out of. For players it is frustrating, and for spectators it is boring.
To improve this I propose making fungal growth start at 100% movement speed and reduce to 0% movement speed over the duration of the spell. I do not know how the SC2 engine works, therefore it may be difficult to implement a continuous and steady decreased from 100 to 0, therefore a voidray like implementation could be used. For the first second of duration the units have 90% movement speed, the second second they have 60% movement speed, the third second they have 30% movement speed, and for the final second the units are immobilized.
For me this works for the spell since it is a "Fungal Growth" and grows over time until the unit is rooted to the ground. This new workup of the spell would allow a player to micro in a limited capacity to help reduce the losses after the spell is cast. The spell is still very powerful and disruptive, however now allows for micro by the player and is much more exciting for the spectator. Imagine castors yelling "OMG Fungal on all those marines! The Banelings are coming! AN AMAZING SPLIT, those banelings were not very cost efficient there!". Or "Fungal on the medivac, is it going to get out of range of that queen in time... They its slowing ANNNNNNNNNNND IT GOT AWAY WITH 5hp!".
The slowing coefficents for each second the duration can be tweaked heavily to produce interesting dynamics with the units based on relative speeds between zerg units and other races.
What does TL think of this idea?
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On November 14 2012 02:04 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 18:00 Chylith wrote:On November 13 2012 14:56 Turbo.Tactics wrote:On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote:![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/4/4b/Restoration.gif) Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) " brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this. Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios. Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out... In brood war Restoration was single target for 50?(correct me if I'm wrong here) Energy that was cast from the Medic. Mind you, none of the things it countered were AoE except maelstrom and ensnare, both of which were much smaller than current fungal. Maelstrom was the only one that actually stopped a unit(besides lockdown which was single target) Ensnare just slowed by 75%?(Again correct me if I'm wrong on the % here lol) Plague was "sort of" AoE(it migrated to nearby mechanical units ;p) but that's an entirely different thing anyways, not really comparable to fungal. Now with all that said, Restoration would have to be AoE(obviously smaller than fungal in radius or it'd make fungal kinda useless) and it would be very clunky unless it "did" other things, just like the brood war Restoration did. ;p It also wouldn't remedy the problems protoss are having with fungal growth, or hell even the problems zerg have in ZvZ with fungal growth. Plus I very much doubt that they'll add a new medivac upgrade(or whatever, but medivac does seem the best place for this upgrade) in WoL. If this was the path they took as a solution we'd see no change till Heart of the Swarm. Somehow I doubt most people want to wait that long. Uhhh, you need to get your facts straight about BW plague. It was straight up AoE exactly how you describe maelstrom / Ensnare (put plague debuff on every target hit) and would do 300 damage as a DOT on the target unless it was removed by restoration or the target dropped below 4 HP (it was 3 damage per tick but couldn't kill the unit. Thus, a unit could wind up with 1, 2, or 3 HP at the end of the plague.) (on protoss, it would damage hull but not shields) And it didn't "spread" either. Just chiming in about fact checking, don't mind me.
Oh no worries, that's why I said I wasn't sure about a lot of these things, it's been like 5 years since I've last played brood war. xD I just remembered it as spreading(I guess cause it's AoE was quite small?) but yeah. <3
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I pray that this nerf comes soon for the sake of SC2.
I just watched TheSTC outplay this zerg so fucking hard and the zerg won somehow. It was like watching a top 15 grandmaster play a low master player. I can't take much more of this game in its current state.
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imo i think that fungal growth should slow for 19.8% and it can stack up to five times so it stops at 99%. For units with special abilities like for example blink the ability should have a little cooldown. I think the damage should also stack like maybe for example 20 25 30 35 etc. This is with the projectile version of fg.
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I am going to say once what the only real considerations should be at this stage.
-First change Infested terran cost to 35 energy.
-Consider making fungal slow massive units instead of stopping them.
-Also consider the idea of fungal having a "delayed effect of armored units. Slow for 2 seconds, root for 2 seconds. I think fungal should not be changed for light units at all and the damage should not be changed for armored but you could fit some cool effects of slow spreading fungal on a unit while giving a good player a brief chance to micro before getting rooted (abilities like blink would obviously be nullified instantly.
These changes should be implemented first and if zergs are still playing one dimensionally then more changes should be considered.
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On November 14 2012 13:32 Goshdarnit wrote:
I am going to say once what the only real considerations should be at this stage.
-First change Infested terran cost to 35 energy.
-Consider making fungal slow massive units instead of stopping them.
-Also consider the idea of fungal having a "delayed effect of armored units. Slow for 2 seconds, root for 2 seconds. I think fungal should not be changed for light units at all and the damage should not be changed for armored but you could fit some cool effects of slow spreading fungal on a unit while giving a good player a brief chance to micro before getting rooted (abilities like blink would obviously be nullified instantly.
These changes should be implemented first and if zergs are still playing one dimensionally then more changes should be considered.
Everyone should keep an open mind of what can, and what will, prevent mass infestor/OP infestor/BL armies. There are some subtle changes that will completely invalidate mass infestor play. These are not the *only* changes that should be considered. In fact, slowing massive units will not change anything about TvZ play because thors are already so slow that slowing them with fungal is the same as rooting them. In PvZ, fungal is not the problem for archons, its the broodlings. No longer rooting the collosi only buffs prehive protoss timings while not even helping the lategame PvZ situation (which is the exact opposite what the change should be doing). Changing IT to 35 energy could help for mass infestor play in ZvT (although I'm not so certain, now instead of 20 full energy infestors lobbing out 160 IT, they will lob out 100. Will that be enough to actually push people away from mass infestors?), but the problem is still the fungal in ZvP.
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Make Infested Terrans cost 25 Minerals :D
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why not make guardian shield lessen or negate fungals? i never see guardian shield used late game, might as well have them in late game as well.
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Given that all matchups with zerg are currently balanced around the infestor it's pretty silly to talk about changing the infestor without talking about adjusting the rest of the game. It's like saying forcefield should be nerfed without saying how protoss is going to survive the early game without having it in the current form. Remember what the game looked like for zerg before blizzard turned the infestor into a core unit? Not pretty. I can't stand the unit and would love to see it changed but right now as the rest of the game stands it's pretty essential in both zvp and zvt.
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On November 14 2012 14:07 reikai wrote:
Make Infested Terrans cost 25 Minerals :D
This is a terrible idea, zergs will just turtle until late game, bank 10k minerals, then push out with maxed broodlord/infestor and infinity infested terrans (unless you mean both 25 minerals and 25 energy)
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after we balance the infestor, zerg will realize that it doesnt even need it to just A move and beat everyone
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Yes, Yes and freakn MORE Yes !
Reason: Same goes for Storm and EMP, they can hit your own units and you need to control your infestors better if fungal can target your own units !
Reason 2: Remove that freakn energy upgrade ! Same for Ghosts, since HT's don't have energy upgrade either.
Reason 3: Fungal can't kill units, like bloodbath from defiler in SC:BW, that would be enough.
Reason 4: You can still use blink if you're being fungaled
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Well, if we look at Infestor, I'd say that Fungal Growth is the most broken thing about it.
Next we can look at what would actually make sense. Fungal hitting airbourne opponents doesn't make any sense, and it could use a delay because they probably can't grow instantly. Maybe like half a second before it takes effect, or even a full second. Might need to buff Neural Parasite to help with anti-airing but I think that it's important to first try changes that make the most sense story/setting-wise.
I also think that burrowmove should require an upgrade and that summoned units shouldn't get upgrades but that would likely require additional zerg buffs or nerfs for other races.
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On November 14 2012 23:26 Shikyo wrote:
Well, if we look at Infestor, I'd say that Fungal Growth is the most broken thing about it.
Next we can look at what would actually make sense. Fungal hitting airbourne opponents doesn't make any sense, and it could use a delay because they probably can't grow instantly. Maybe like half a second before it takes effect, or even a full second. Might need to buff Neural Parasite to help with anti-airing but I think that it's important to first try changes that make the most sense story/setting-wise.
I also think that burrowmove should require an upgrade and that summoned units shouldn't get upgrades but that would likely require additional zerg buffs or nerfs for other races.
If you remove the anti air ability what anti air units does the zerg still have that can attack both? muta's and queens.
the moment you mes around with the anti air you have to give hydra's a buff so they can be used as compensation and because they are simply useless now.
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On November 14 2012 10:52 Wilsonator wrote:
One of the problems I have always had with fungal growth is how it produces and instantaneous swing in advantage to zerg that cant be microed out of. For players it is frustrating, and for spectators it is boring.
To improve this I propose making fungal growth start at 100% movement speed and reduce to 0% movement speed over the duration of the spell. I do not know how the SC2 engine works, therefore it may be difficult to implement a continuous and steady decreased from 100 to 0, therefore a voidray like implementation could be used. For the first second of duration the units have 90% movement speed, the second second they have 60% movement speed, the third second they have 30% movement speed, and for the final second the units are immobilized.
For me this works for the spell since it is a "Fungal Growth" and grows over time until the unit is rooted to the ground. This new workup of the spell would allow a player to micro in a limited capacity to help reduce the losses after the spell is cast. The spell is still very powerful and disruptive, however now allows for micro by the player and is much more exciting for the spectator. Imagine castors yelling "OMG Fungal on all those marines! The Banelings are coming! AN AMAZING SPLIT, those banelings were not very cost efficient there!". Or "Fungal on the medivac, is it going to get out of range of that queen in time... They its slowing ANNNNNNNNNNND IT GOT AWAY WITH 5hp!".
The slowing coefficents for each second the duration can be tweaked heavily to produce interesting dynamics with the units based on relative speeds between zerg units and other races.
What does TL think of this idea?
I agree that the slow effect changing over time is the best solution. It adds a dynamic twist while compromising between root (which is just bad) and straight up slow (which is redundant with time warp now).
Not entirely sure, but I think it might be better to start at 0% movement speed and increase to 100%. At least, I think that would work better for fungals/banelings versus marines since a good Terran can just split like normal if it starts at 100%.
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The same way you balance the Warhound . . . admit that it's too damned powerful for the game and remove it.
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Just saying, these polls aren't credible, and making infested terran eggs the same HP as an infested terran renders them useless because the only reason they are used in ZvT is cause of the HP so you can bust in with the rest of your army. and in ZvP they will be killed so fast by a colossus or a storm, and in ZvT, tanks will just kill them in like what, 2 shots? And in ZvZ it doesn't matter though.
The only change of these that would make the game more interesting is fungal growth projectile, and maybe slow (but I think that's too much of a nerf). honestly, the game is fine as it is and we don't need to see changes until HotS is out.
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On November 15 2012 08:06 NOOBALOPSE wrote:
Just saying, these polls aren't credible, and making infested terran eggs the same HP as an infested terran renders them useless because the only reason they are used in ZvT is cause of the HP so you can bust in with the rest of your army. and in ZvP they will be killed so fast by a colossus or a storm, and in ZvT, tanks will just kill them in like what, 2 shots? And in ZvZ it doesn't matter though.
The only change of these that would make the game more interesting is fungal growth projectile, and maybe slow (but I think that's too much of a nerf). honestly, the game is fine as it is and we don't need to see changes until HotS is out.
Let the free units kill the other free units woooooooooo
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I don't know if anyone has had this idea yet. But what if infested terrans didn't get the ranged attack upgrades. Maybe carapace too. But it would make them weaker only in the late game when there are lots of infestors.
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On November 14 2012 17:33 NexCa wrote:
Yes, Yes and freakn MORE Yes !
Reason: Same goes for Storm and EMP, they can hit your own units and you need to control your infestors better if fungal can target your own units !
Reason 2: Remove that freakn energy upgrade ! Same for Ghosts, since HT's don't have energy upgrade either.
Reason 3: Fungal can't kill units, like bloodbath from defiler in SC:BW, that would be enough.
Reason 4: You can still use blink if you're being fungaled
The reason HT don't have the energy upgrade is cause it meant instant storm. Just warp in templar and storm. When you need ghosts or infestors or ravens you need to aticipate when you have to build them. So they pop out when you need it. HT w/ energy upgrade needs no preperation. Just warp in 2 and storm twice and morph into archon.
ps. defiler spell was called plague
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EPT
