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On October 23 2012 23:11 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
I don't think many of us think that Jessica was solely responsible. For me, it's more her behaviour after the ship has gone down. In fact I don't know if it was her responsible at all. Miscommunication and bad feelings aside, let's be honest here: they had no sponsors, that's why they folded.
Though i agree, but you have to question as to why they had no sponsors aswell, something management also play's a big part in.
Not a single company wanted to sponsor a 2x GSTL champion team ?
Could it be sponsors rather not deal with some one that shares personal information to the community ? (let's be honest this is not the first time things got out of hand)
We will proberly never know but her actions pref to this sure were not charming either. They could not have helped, her marketing skills left to desire.
Also i really don't like the idea of Jessica to now burn these players to the ground by releasing all this personal recorded information.
And that call where she announced all this drama aswell with the quote "you dug your own grave"
Things have gone to personal from that point, and i blame Boxer for not being able to stop her.
It just shows how bad her management skills are and where you can not keep personal feelings out of the business side of things.
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On October 23 2012 23:10 openbox1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:02 Hryul wrote:On October 23 2012 22:31 KaienFEMC wrote:
People mentioned way earlier that Korean netizens are furious at Crank on this script.
Not just Koreans, any Asians will not let Crank go easily at this thing.
It is a culture difference, and what I don't really get is why are Westerners judging Korean behaviour using Western standard? Another good example of cultural difference again comes up in Jessica's interview in response to Crank. Warning: gross oversimplification: So it is right to be silent on female circumcision because it is "african culture"? Or slavery because it is a "Dixie thingy"? Culture can only be an explanation but never an excuse for actions. Very catchy last line. However, he was talking about judging social behaviors. About what is acceptable and unacceptable in etiquette which is unique to every culture. Your examples are extreme. I hardly think slavery and female circumcision are analogous to how different cultures judge what is and isn't polite behavior. And please don't say for the dixies thought it was polite owning slaves.  I know you use the disclaimer gross oversimplification but it isn't even that at all. Its just a completely irrelevant comparison.
I used this extreme examples to point out that culture may determine what people living there accept as positive/negative behavior. We still judge it as wrong :p
My point, which many people here seem to share, is that she was the team manager and in her role as such she should be responsible for the team. I cannot imagine a (successful) culture where the leaders are not held responsible for their failure in leadership but the ones they overlook.
I don't know what would be the social acceptable solutions for the problems Jessica had were but I am quite sure it was her duty to hold the team together instead of throwing dirt at everyone.
I haven't read the new interview after the MMA one she gave, but from the quotes it seems she admits failure on her side. This is what we all I wanted to see in the first place.
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On October 23 2012 23:49 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:11 Subversive wrote:On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
I don't think many of us think that Jessica was solely responsible. For me, it's more her behaviour after the ship has gone down. In fact I don't know if it was her responsible at all. Miscommunication and bad feelings aside, let's be honest here: they had no sponsors, that's why they folded. Though i agree, but you have to question as to why they had no sponsors aswell, something management also play's a big part in. Not a single company wanted to sponsor a 2x GSTL champion team ? Could it be sponsors rather not deal with some one that shares personal information to the community ? (let's be honest this is not the first time things got out of hand) We will proberly never know but her actions pref to this sure were not charming either. They could not have helped, her marketing skills left to desire. Also i really don't like the idea of Jessica to now burn these players to the ground by releasing all this personal recorded information. And that call where she announced all this drama aswell with the quote "you dug your own grave" Things have gone to personal from that point, and i blame Boxer for not being able to stop her. It just shows how bad her management skills are.
Yeah of course. You're right and I agree with you. But I don't want to prejudge her about the sponsorship thing. A lot of teams in Korea seem hard up for money and sponsors. Her treatment of her former players is reprehensible though. Beyond unprofessional, it's just cruel and degrading. Trying to break and ruin a bunch of young people... for what? Because they were ungrateful and rude? Wow her kids are in for a tough ride.
On October 23 2012 23:53 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:10 openbox1 wrote:On October 23 2012 23:02 Hryul wrote:On October 23 2012 22:31 KaienFEMC wrote:
People mentioned way earlier that Korean netizens are furious at Crank on this script.
Not just Koreans, any Asians will not let Crank go easily at this thing.
It is a culture difference, and what I don't really get is why are Westerners judging Korean behaviour using Western standard? Another good example of cultural difference again comes up in Jessica's interview in response to Crank. Warning: gross oversimplification: So it is right to be silent on female circumcision because it is "african culture"? Or slavery because it is a "Dixie thingy"? Culture can only be an explanation but never an excuse for actions. Very catchy last line. However, he was talking about judging social behaviors. About what is acceptable and unacceptable in etiquette which is unique to every culture. Your examples are extreme. I hardly think slavery and female circumcision are analogous to how different cultures judge what is and isn't polite behavior. And please don't say for the dixies thought it was polite owning slaves. I know you use the disclaimer gross oversimplification but it isn't even that at all. Its just a completely irrelevant comparison. I used this extreme examples to point out that culture may determine what people living there accept as positive/negative behavior. We still judge it as wrong :p My point, which many people here seem to share, is that she was the team manager and in her role as such she should be responsible for the team. I cannot imagine a (successful) culture where the leaders are not held responsible for their failure in leadership but the ones they overlook. I don't know what would be the social acceptable solutions for the problems Jessica had were but I am quite sure it was her duty to hold the team together instead of throwing dirt at everyone. I haven't read the new interview after the MMA one she gave, but from the quotes it seems she admits failure on her side. This is what we all I wanted to see in the first place.
Read the interview. Despite appearing to change her story here and there she is definitely not accepting much responsibility. You get the impression though that it is wearing on her as well. In a small way I actually feel bad for her. She is sort of a whirlwind of destruction and is even hurting herself. That last line where she says she is forgiving but has to see this through and won't stop - sad...
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On October 23 2012 23:42 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:36 vrok wrote:On October 23 2012 23:27 Subversive wrote:
He broke down into tears. Why is that so unacceptable. Men should be allowed to cry and show emotion. It doesn't make them weak. Western anglo-saxon culture really needs to change that. What? How is breaking down not weak? It's pretty much the definition. It's not like he was being tortured by the CIA. Don't overdo the political correctness. Just because it can be understandable and acceptable, doesn't mean it's not weak. Dont overdo the "guys need to be tough and not cry" thing. Psychological pressure like that can really put a lot ... and I mean A LOT ... of pressure on someone and you dont need physical violence to start this. If you dont understand it then dont judge Crank and the crying part has NOTHING to do with the team imploding, so why bring it up? I could just as well say that "not crying is weak", because you are too afraid to show your emotions. It has no part in the discussion, so better ignore it.
The real problem comes from the line of thinking that being weak is supposedly unacceptable. It's not. It's ok to be weak. It doesn't mean people have to ignore it, lie about it, and start pretending it doesn't exist.
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Hmmm... I think you guys really don't understand how Asian culture works. Korean, Japanese and certain Chinese ones are especially different from Western values.
When you look at things like the brand of Confucianism that ancient emperors popularized and got passed down, you might start to understand the difference in motivations between both cultures.
Isn't it telling that Korean netizens are angry at Crank and supporting Jessica/Boxer wholeheartedly? In this case, I believe a lot of korean netizens feel Crank (and MMA) has bit the hand that fed him. And this truly is taboo in Asian culture. In the past, people used to say that teachers are always right and students are always wrong, even if the student is correct. This shows the amount of significance and expected respect being placed on elders in authoritative positions.
As an example, you guys probably didn't feel that Crank raising his voice was any big of a deal at all. But I bet you the Korean netizens would feel that was a significant mark of disrespect.
Also, I believe there was a responsibility placed upon Crank to keep his juniors (which would include MMA and guys) in line. However he didn't fulfill this and made some dodgy moves that led to Jessica/Boxer's image of him plummeting.
We can judge these cultural habits as wrong, but in the end this is more domestic than international and I don't think our views will hold much weighted significance. I believe more respect for the Korean culture should be existent.
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Reading about how MMA hired his own personal coach and didn't even pay him is...ugghhhhh. This kid...
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On October 23 2012 23:55 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:42 Rabiator wrote:On October 23 2012 23:36 vrok wrote:On October 23 2012 23:27 Subversive wrote:
He broke down into tears. Why is that so unacceptable. Men should be allowed to cry and show emotion. It doesn't make them weak. Western anglo-saxon culture really needs to change that. What? How is breaking down not weak? It's pretty much the definition. It's not like he was being tortured by the CIA. Don't overdo the political correctness. Just because it can be understandable and acceptable, doesn't mean it's not weak. Dont overdo the "guys need to be tough and not cry" thing. Psychological pressure like that can really put a lot ... and I mean A LOT ... of pressure on someone and you dont need physical violence to start this. If you dont understand it then dont judge Crank and the crying part has NOTHING to do with the team imploding, so why bring it up? I could just as well say that "not crying is weak", because you are too afraid to show your emotions. It has no part in the discussion, so better ignore it. The real problem comes from the line of thinking that being weak is supposedly unacceptable. It's not. It's ok to be weak. Doesn't mean people have to ignore it, lie about it, and start pretending it doesn't exist.
Wow you're right. So strange to think that people associate some negative connotations with weakness.
On October 23 2012 23:22 Art.FeeL wrote:
From the phone convo I say that CranK is one heck of a crybaby. He seems so weak mentally and emotionally. In the end. it was fault of both parties. Crank for his dodging and not being direct and Jessica's for her authoritativeness.
Crybaby and weak mentally and emotionally. Now tell me where he is implying that it's ok to be weak.
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On October 23 2012 23:55 fluidin wrote:
Isn't it telling that Korean netizens are angry and Crank and supporting Jessica/Boxer wholeheartedly? In this case, I believe a lot of korean netizens feel Crank (and MMA) has bit the hand that fed him. And this truly is taboo in Asian culture. In the past, people used to say that teachers are always right and students are always wrong, even if the student is correct. This shows the amount of significance and expected respect being placed on elders in authoritative positions.
Actually this is not really true. Korean netizens were on Jessica's side for ESF thing, but the latest Jessica response to MMA have a lot of them calling her out.
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There's a really interesting xkcd today, wonder if he follows this sort of stuff: http://xkcd.com/1124/
It's pretty much my take on the situation, it wasn't good for anyone, but it would have blown over if Jessica hadn't latched onto it with the ferocity that she did.
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On October 23 2012 23:53 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:49 Lysanias wrote:On October 23 2012 23:11 Subversive wrote:On October 23 2012 23:08 wasabay wrote:Poll: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise?Jessica. She mishandled this very badly (99) 53% It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere (46) 25% Manager J (14) 7% MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams (12) 6% Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together. (8) 4% Crank. (8) 4% 187 total votes Your vote: What do you think is likely at fault for SlayerS's demise? (Vote): Jessica. She mishandled this very badly
(Vote): Boxer. He should had done more to keep the team together.
(Vote): Crank.
(Vote): MMA and his band of "thugs" who felt the team is falling apart and are looking for foreign teams
(Vote): Manager J
(Vote): It's a combination of miscommunication and deterioration of practising atmosphere
I don't think many of us think that Jessica was solely responsible. For me, it's more her behaviour after the ship has gone down. In fact I don't know if it was her responsible at all. Miscommunication and bad feelings aside, let's be honest here: they had no sponsors, that's why they folded. Though i agree, but you have to question as to why they had no sponsors aswell, something management also play's a big part in. Not a single company wanted to sponsor a 2x GSTL champion team ? Could it be sponsors rather not deal with some one that shares personal information to the community ? (let's be honest this is not the first time things got out of hand) We will proberly never know but her actions pref to this sure were not charming either. They could not have helped, her marketing skills left to desire. Also i really don't like the idea of Jessica to now burn these players to the ground by releasing all this personal recorded information. And that call where she announced all this drama aswell with the quote "you dug your own grave" Things have gone to personal from that point, and i blame Boxer for not being able to stop her. It just shows how bad her management skills are. Yeah of course. You're right and I agree with you. But I don't want to prejudge her about the sponsorship thing. A lot of teams in Korea seem hard up for money and sponsors. Her treatment of her former players is reprehensible thought. Beyond unprofessional, it's just cruel and degrading. Trying to break and ruin a bunch of young people... for what? Because they were ungrateful and rude? Wow her kids are in for a tough ride.
Indeed you are right, i know to little about the sponsors and how they work excatly in korea to state it that bold.
All else we are on the same page by no means are MMA and his band of thugs angels, they messed up badly and are as much to blame. But unlike her they atleast apologize for all there mistakes and faults.
This could have been so simple if all took there blame and moved on.
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On October 23 2012 23:55 fluidin wrote:
Hmmm... I think you guys really don't understand how Asian culture works. Korean, Japanese and certain Chinese ones are especially different from Western values.
When you look at things like the brand of Confucianism that ancient emperors popularized and got passed down, you might start to understand the difference in motivations between both cultures.
Isn't it telling that Korean netizens are angry and Crank and supporting Jessica/Boxer wholeheartedly? In this case, I believe a lot of korean netizens feel Crank (and MMA) has bit the hand that fed him. And this truly is taboo in Asian culture. In the past, people used to say that teachers are always right and students are always wrong, even if the student is correct. This shows the amount of significance and expected respect being placed on elders in authoritative positions.
As an example, you guys probably didn't feel that Crank raising his voice was any big of a deal at all. But I bet you the Korean netizens would feel that was a significant mark of disrespect.
Also, I believe there was a responsibility placed upon Crank to keep MMA and guys in line. However he didn't fulfill this and made some dodgy moves that led to Jessica/Boxer's image of him plummeting.
This sounds a lot like there is no proper way to address mistakes of people who are considered "superiors". How does such a society work?
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I feel sorry for Boxer, being married to such an annoying, petty bitch. Everything I read from her makes me cringe, and every video I've seen of her around Slayers or just Boxer makes me feel bad for them all. She's basically just a brat, and all of this drama shows it pretty clearly, regardless of what percentage of the blame is on her.
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On October 24 2012 00:02 SUSUGAM wrote:
I feel sorry for Boxer, being married to such an annoying, petty bitch. Everything I read from her makes me cringe, and every video I've seen of her around Slayers or just Boxer makes me feel bad for them all. She's basically just a brat, and all of this drama shows it pretty clearly, regardless of what percentage of the blame is on her.
Boxer is not married yet, and for all her fault (not someone I'd like hang out with), calling her a petty bitch is not a good idea.
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On October 23 2012 23:18 shiroiusagi wrote:
In the phone conversation translation, Boxer says Crank wasn't a contracted player. what the heck is all the fuss is about?????
I understand talking to your elders, but young people's mind changes. Crank seemed like he had no where to go after wanting to leave Slayers. Crank was given an opportunity by TotalBiscut's wife's team, why not take it. I am pretty sure anyone who had nothing was given a opportunity for something they would take it. I can't even barely call Crank's "lie" a lie.
Jessica is not leaving this rest and keeps on bringing back on the drama, it's like she won't stop till she gets what she wants. All the shit is on Crank. The atmosphere dampened when he leaves? What about Dragon, Ganzi, or Taeja??? Also it pisses me off that she blames the team failing on the players, (besides eSF I can understand that, but that's still blaming something else.) She doesn't even take one bit doing zero wrong. She was the TEAM MANAGER. If the team fails, there was something wrong with the team management. If she did a good job doing team management, the team wouldn't have fallen.
And releasing a private conversation is pretty damn low.
Bold part: You apparently dont read everything there is. She took the blame for hiring manager J. And considering that is the one thing that started everything (negative influence of MMA and fueling his evil side, no sponsors) it's basically taking the blame for SlayerS failure.
1st question about contract:
His actions are legally allowed, but that doesnt change that he's a despicable (contemptible?) human.
He lied to get off the team, even though other players were able to get off the team by just stating said wish.
He lied that he will go home and practice for the GSTL match, while never intending to play, so he didnt give a fuck about his teammates. He insulted an elder & boss (sorry that's not only a "Korean" thing. Even we Westerners have standards and this is below them). He put Cella in a bad situation by asking him to lie for Crank.
As I said - legally there's no problem here, since he wasnt under contract. But it's also legal to tell the world how he acted.
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On October 24 2012 00:01 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:55 fluidin wrote:
Hmmm... I think you guys really don't understand how Asian culture works. Korean, Japanese and certain Chinese ones are especially different from Western values.
When you look at things like the brand of Confucianism that ancient emperors popularized and got passed down, you might start to understand the difference in motivations between both cultures.
Isn't it telling that Korean netizens are angry and Crank and supporting Jessica/Boxer wholeheartedly? In this case, I believe a lot of korean netizens feel Crank (and MMA) has bit the hand that fed him. And this truly is taboo in Asian culture. In the past, people used to say that teachers are always right and students are always wrong, even if the student is correct. This shows the amount of significance and expected respect being placed on elders in authoritative positions.
As an example, you guys probably didn't feel that Crank raising his voice was any big of a deal at all. But I bet you the Korean netizens would feel that was a significant mark of disrespect.
Also, I believe there was a responsibility placed upon Crank to keep MMA and guys in line. However he didn't fulfill this and made some dodgy moves that led to Jessica/Boxer's image of him plummeting. This sounds a lot like there is no proper way to address mistakes of people who are considered "superiors". How does such a society work?
It didn't work very well, obviously. How else do you think western developments overtook the Chinese ones? Ancient emperors and their brand of absolute ruling using "heaven's mandate" killed off a ton of forward thinking scholars. And China had a LOT of those.
In fact, I think was because there was such an abundance of wise ministers that China even remained strong after killing off so many of them. The most successful emperors were obviously those that often truly listened to their good ministers.
A lot of faith was placed upon people in power actually being good, or at least wise. Luckily for China this seemed to work alright.
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On October 23 2012 19:49 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:The phone call is now translated! HERE!
Is it just me or does this sound completely horrible for Jessica and Boxer? Isn't it their evidence?
Jessica sounds like a bitch and Boxer actually sounds like he's trying to destroy crank mentally. That sounds like an extortion call. How does this make them look good in any way shape or form?
Oh also, it seems that she did indeed lie about why crank was going home. I don't understand how this is evidence. If anything it just shattered the illusion that boxer was blameless. He sounds incredibly incompetent here.
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I feel like there are just too young(?) to understand the concept of being on a contract. Anyway, I think the general atmosphere of TL is too pro Crank and MMA. It might be translation issues, but Jessica strictly speaking had no faults. She was lenient on her side of the contract, she really took no money, and she took care of them. Maybe the only fault was trusting MMA and Manager J. She admitted that a long time ago.
Talking about Western and Asian culture, I would think that even in the States and Europe, it would be frowned upon if you betray your friends and mentor. I know fanboys will hate this but the general sense in Korea is not that MMA and Crank bit the hand that fed them but that they were bunch of whiny babies (despite their age) because Boxer and Jessica treated them too well. Even if you read the phone conversation, Crank is just whining and Boxer is being his mom.
On the issue of being passive aggressive, you don't know how passive aggressive actual workplaces are (in the States). Jessica was trying to keep the team together, and now she gave up and you kids are saying she should just suck it up. She invested tons of money without wanting repayment and wanted to see her lover's dream come true, but the people she cared for totally crushed it and hurt her lover. I would be pissed if I were in her position. I am thinking she had been rather soft on them even after. Her new interviews are only responses to MMA and Crank's lies.
To some TLers, please do suck it up if someone does that to you.
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By the way, I just read through the translation and it has weird nuances that aren't in the originals. There are also mistranslations. I just don't have time to translate it though.
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On October 24 2012 00:15 Elfian wrote:
I feel like there are just too young(?) to understand the concept of being on a contract. Anyway, I think the general atmosphere of TL is too pro Crank and MMA. It might be translation issues, but Jessica strictly speaking had no faults. She was lenient on her side of the contract, she really took no money, and she took care of them. Maybe the only fault was trusting MMA and Manager J. She admitted that a long time ago.
Talking about Western and Asian culture, I would think that even in the States and Europe, it would be frowned upon if you betray your friends and mentor. I know fanboys will hate this but the general sense in Korea is not that MMA and Crank bit the hand that fed them but that they were bunch of whiny babies (despite their age) because Boxer and Jessica treated them too well. Even if you read the phone conversation, Crank is just whining and Boxer is being his mom.
On the issue of being passive aggressive, you don't know how passive aggressive actual workplaces are (in the States). Jessica was trying to keep the team together, and now she gave up and you kids are saying she should just suck it up. She invested tons of money without wanting repayment and wanted to see her lover's dream come true, but the people she cared for totally crushed it and hurt her lover. I would be pissed if I were in her position. I am thinking she had been rather soft on them even after. Her new interviews are only responses to MMA and Crank's lies.
To some TLers, please do suck it up if someone does that to you.
There are thousands of company that folds everyday, most of them are more important than a SC2 team. Vast majority of them do not do a press conference to air all their dirty laundries. Because that's how responsible business act. What TLer act like in this situation has absolutely zero relevancy because not many of them are business manager, Jessica were though.
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On October 24 2012 00:13 boxturtle wrote:Is it just me or does this sound completely horrible for Jessica and Boxer? Isn't it their evidence? Jessica sounds like a bitch and Boxer actually sounds like he's trying to destroy crank mentally. That sounds like an extortion call. How does this make them ook good in any way shape or form? Oh also, it seems that she did indeed lie about why crank was going home. I don't understand how this is evidence. If anythong it just shattered the illusion that boxer was blameless. He sounds incredibly incompetent here.
Yeah I know right lol. If she thinks this is evidence that makes her look good or Crank bad, then she is really delusional. If she submitted this in a court you could just imagine the defence looking blankly.
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EPT
