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On October 23 2012 23:58 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:55 vrok wrote:On October 23 2012 23:42 Rabiator wrote:On October 23 2012 23:36 vrok wrote:On October 23 2012 23:27 Subversive wrote:
He broke down into tears. Why is that so unacceptable. Men should be allowed to cry and show emotion. It doesn't make them weak. Western anglo-saxon culture really needs to change that. What? How is breaking down not weak? It's pretty much the definition. It's not like he was being tortured by the CIA. Don't overdo the political correctness. Just because it can be understandable and acceptable, doesn't mean it's not weak. Dont overdo the "guys need to be tough and not cry" thing. Psychological pressure like that can really put a lot ... and I mean A LOT ... of pressure on someone and you dont need physical violence to start this. If you dont understand it then dont judge Crank and the crying part has NOTHING to do with the team imploding, so why bring it up? I could just as well say that "not crying is weak", because you are too afraid to show your emotions. It has no part in the discussion, so better ignore it. The real problem comes from the line of thinking that being weak is supposedly unacceptable. It's not. It's ok to be weak. Doesn't mean people have to ignore it, lie about it, and start pretending it doesn't exist. Wow you're right. So strange to think that people associate some negative connotations with weakness. Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:22 Art.FeeL wrote:
From the phone convo I say that CranK is one heck of a crybaby. He seems so weak mentally and emotionally. In the end. it was fault of both parties. Crank for his dodging and not being direct and Jessica's for her authoritativeness. Crybaby and weak mentally and emotionally. Now tell me where he is implying that it's ok or fine to be weak.
That has nothing to do with whether it's acceptable or not. It's just a statement of how he perceives Crank from the phone call. Even if he dislikes weakness, that doesn't mean it's unacceptable to him. Obfuscating the entire matter for no other reason than crusading about political correctness serves no one.
A big part of government and society in general is about taking pressure off of the individual and distributing it over the entire population, where and as needed. Some are weaker than others and we accept it. Lying about it helps no one.
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1878 Posts
On October 24 2012 00:01 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:55 fluidin wrote:
Hmmm... I think you guys really don't understand how Asian culture works. Korean, Japanese and certain Chinese ones are especially different from Western values.
When you look at things like the brand of Confucianism that ancient emperors popularized and got passed down, you might start to understand the difference in motivations between both cultures.
Isn't it telling that Korean netizens are angry and Crank and supporting Jessica/Boxer wholeheartedly? In this case, I believe a lot of korean netizens feel Crank (and MMA) has bit the hand that fed him. And this truly is taboo in Asian culture. In the past, people used to say that teachers are always right and students are always wrong, even if the student is correct. This shows the amount of significance and expected respect being placed on elders in authoritative positions.
As an example, you guys probably didn't feel that Crank raising his voice was any big of a deal at all. But I bet you the Korean netizens would feel that was a significant mark of disrespect.
Also, I believe there was a responsibility placed upon Crank to keep MMA and guys in line. However he didn't fulfill this and made some dodgy moves that led to Jessica/Boxer's image of him plummeting. This sounds a lot like there is no proper way to address mistakes of people who are considered "superiors". How does such a society work?
You wait til they die then say they were wrong.
On a more serious note, you apologise and back down even if you stick by your principles. I say this coming from a very very traditional Asian family, to the point til this day my mother and a few of my aunts still have a lesser say in family issues coz they're 1. women and 2. technically, relative outsiders.
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On October 24 2012 00:15 Elfian wrote:
I feel like there are just too young(?) to understand the concept of being on a contract. Anyway, I think the general atmosphere of TL is too pro Crank and MMA. It might be translation issues, but Jessica strictly speaking had no faults. She was lenient on her side of the contract, she really took no money, and she took care of them. Maybe the only fault was trusting MMA and Manager J. She admitted that a long time ago.
Talking about Western and Asian culture, I would think that even in the States and Europe, it would be frowned upon if you betray your friends and mentor. I know fanboys will hate this but the general sense in Korea is not that MMA and Crank bit the hand that fed them but that they were bunch of whiny babies (despite their age) because Boxer and Jessica treated them too well. Even if you read the phone conversation, Crank is just whining and Boxer is being his mom.
On the issue of being passive aggressive, you don't know how passive aggressive actual workplaces are (in the States). Jessica was trying to keep the team together, and now she gave up and you kids are saying she should just suck it up. She invested tons of money without wanting repayment and wanted to see her lover's dream come true, but the people she cared for totally crushed it and hurt her lover. I would be pissed if I were in her position. I am thinking she had been rather soft on them even after. Her new interviews are only responses to MMA and Crank's lies.
To some TLers, please do suck it up if someone does that to you.
She did take money. She said she didn't and then MMA released his bank records and she backtracked and tried to say what she meant was that she didn't take the money straight away ie, that he didn't give her the money [straight away]. That last part is kind of relevant. She's a liar.
As for the rest, investing money is a risk. And as for people crushing their dreams that's just wild speculation and only her side of the story.
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She took the money per the contract and gave it back later (they should have put it in before she told them to). It is in the Korean interviews. She is not a liar. You are truly Subversive per your name.
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On October 24 2012 00:01 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:55 fluidin wrote:
Hmmm... I think you guys really don't understand how Asian culture works. Korean, Japanese and certain Chinese ones are especially different from Western values.
When you look at things like the brand of Confucianism that ancient emperors popularized and got passed down, you might start to understand the difference in motivations between both cultures.
Isn't it telling that Korean netizens are angry and Crank and supporting Jessica/Boxer wholeheartedly? In this case, I believe a lot of korean netizens feel Crank (and MMA) has bit the hand that fed him. And this truly is taboo in Asian culture. In the past, people used to say that teachers are always right and students are always wrong, even if the student is correct. This shows the amount of significance and expected respect being placed on elders in authoritative positions.
As an example, you guys probably didn't feel that Crank raising his voice was any big of a deal at all. But I bet you the Korean netizens would feel that was a significant mark of disrespect.
Also, I believe there was a responsibility placed upon Crank to keep MMA and guys in line. However he didn't fulfill this and made some dodgy moves that led to Jessica/Boxer's image of him plummeting. This sounds a lot like there is no proper way to address mistakes of people who are considered "superiors". How does such a society work?
Apparently they crash a lot of planes. (According to Malcolm Gladwell lol)
Does the foreign market have any monetary effect on the Korean SC2 teams at all? If so, if the issue is culturally divisive and you behave in your 'local' way, you are alienating a big chunk of your customers. If we're not important over there in the business side of things, then it makes sense to behave in a way that is consistent with what your customers are expecting 
Don't you love it when people reduce everything human to economics? :D
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On October 24 2012 00:24 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:58 Subversive wrote:On October 23 2012 23:55 vrok wrote:On October 23 2012 23:42 Rabiator wrote:On October 23 2012 23:36 vrok wrote:On October 23 2012 23:27 Subversive wrote:
He broke down into tears. Why is that so unacceptable. Men should be allowed to cry and show emotion. It doesn't make them weak. Western anglo-saxon culture really needs to change that. What? How is breaking down not weak? It's pretty much the definition. It's not like he was being tortured by the CIA. Don't overdo the political correctness. Just because it can be understandable and acceptable, doesn't mean it's not weak. Dont overdo the "guys need to be tough and not cry" thing. Psychological pressure like that can really put a lot ... and I mean A LOT ... of pressure on someone and you dont need physical violence to start this. If you dont understand it then dont judge Crank and the crying part has NOTHING to do with the team imploding, so why bring it up? I could just as well say that "not crying is weak", because you are too afraid to show your emotions. It has no part in the discussion, so better ignore it. The real problem comes from the line of thinking that being weak is supposedly unacceptable. It's not. It's ok to be weak. Doesn't mean people have to ignore it, lie about it, and start pretending it doesn't exist. Wow you're right. So strange to think that people associate some negative connotations with weakness. On October 23 2012 23:22 Art.FeeL wrote:
From the phone convo I say that CranK is one heck of a crybaby. He seems so weak mentally and emotionally. In the end. it was fault of both parties. Crank for his dodging and not being direct and Jessica's for her authoritativeness. Crybaby and weak mentally and emotionally. Now tell me where he is implying that it's ok or fine to be weak. That has nothing to do with whether it's acceptable or not. It's just a statement of how he perceives Crank from the phone call. Even if he dislikes weakness, that doesn't mean it's unacceptable to him. Obfuscating the entire matter for no other reason than crusading about political correctness serves no one. A big part of government and society in general is about taking pressure off of the individual and distributing it over the entire population, where and as needed. Some are weaker than others and we accept it. Lying about it helps no one.
I'm not obfuscating at all. I could just call your words sophistry then if we want to start criticising each other. And I'm not lying about it being weakness - I just happen to disagree with you.
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Edit: And it's not some crusade about political correctness. I don't happen to like it, it's a view. Argue on it's merits rather than trying to label it.
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SoCal, USA3955 Posts
On October 24 2012 00:05 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 23:18 shiroiusagi wrote:
In the phone conversation translation, Boxer says Crank wasn't a contracted player. what the heck is all the fuss is about?????
I understand talking to your elders, but young people's mind changes. Crank seemed like he had no where to go after wanting to leave Slayers. Crank was given an opportunity by TotalBiscut's wife's team, why not take it. I am pretty sure anyone who had nothing was given a opportunity for something they would take it. I can't even barely call Crank's "lie" a lie.
Jessica is not leaving this rest and keeps on bringing back on the drama, it's like she won't stop till she gets what she wants. All the shit is on Crank. The atmosphere dampened when he leaves? What about Dragon, Ganzi, or Taeja??? Also it pisses me off that she blames the team failing on the players, (besides eSF I can understand that, but that's still blaming something else.) She doesn't even take one bit doing zero wrong. She was the TEAM MANAGER. If the team fails, there was something wrong with the team management. If she did a good job doing team management, the team wouldn't have fallen.
And releasing a private conversation is pretty damn low. Bold part: You apparently dont read everything there is. She took the blame for hiring manager J. And considering that is the one thing that started everything (negative influence of MMA and fueling his evil side, no sponsors) it's basically taking the blame for SlayerS failure. 1st question about contract: His actions are legally allowed, but that doesnt change that he's a despicable (contemptible?) human. He lied to get off the team, even though other players were able to get off the team by just stating said wish. He lied that he will go home and practice for the GSTL match, while never intending to play, so he didnt give a fuck about his teammates. He insulted an elder & boss (sorry that's not only a "Korean" thing. Even we Westerners have standards and this is below them). He put Cella in a bad situation by asking him to lie for Crank. As I said - legally there's no problem here, since he wasnt under contract. But it's also legal to tell the world how he acted.
I don't remember reading her saying she took the blame for hiring manager J. < _ > There is so much to read. :| I really hate arguments though. I just wish Jessica would stop it. And hopefully not release anymore stuff (in the ESFI translation she said there is more to be revealed). Already at this point it would be best everything dropped and everyone go on their separate ways. It already sucks that this drama has to be happening under SlayerS team. Can't we just remember the great things SlayerS has done in the past? Instead get to see the name get tarnished under this drama that almost seems never ending. :|
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Well, dude J is the bad guy and the others just can't handle any kind of pressure, because there is actually no need to disband, they are are just butt hurt.
We should give all of them a pony and a big hug and hopefully the shitstorm will go away.
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On October 24 2012 00:26 Elfian wrote:
She took the money per the contract and gave it back later (they should have put it in before she told them to). It is in the Korean interviews. She is not a liar. You are truly Subversive per your name.
Yeah whatever. Nice personal attack.
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On October 24 2012 00:29 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:26 Elfian wrote:
She took the money per the contract and gave it back later (they should have put it in before she told them to). It is in the Korean interviews. She is not a liar. You are truly Subversive per your name. Yeah whatever. Nice personal attack.
Now you say whatever when I tell you she did not lie. I just dislike spreading false "truths". Apologies if I had been too harsh.
Anyway, at this point Jessica is only responding not attacking.
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On October 24 2012 00:30 Elfian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:29 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:26 Elfian wrote:
She took the money per the contract and gave it back later (they should have put it in before she told them to). It is in the Korean interviews. She is not a liar. You are truly Subversive per your name. Yeah whatever. Nice personal attack. Now you say whatever when I tell you she did not lie. I just dislike spreading false "truths". Apologies if I had been too harsh.
No problem. From what I understood she had said earlier that she had not taken the money. But perhaps I'm wrong and she did say she gave it back. That does sound familiar. The part about the interviewer questioning her about it and bringing up the bank records seems odd then. But I might have misunderstood.
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On October 24 2012 00:29 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:26 Elfian wrote:
She took the money per the contract and gave it back later (they should have put it in before she told them to). It is in the Korean interviews. She is not a liar. You are truly Subversive per your name. Yeah whatever. Nice personal attack.
Its like that you don't even care about your stance.
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After reading the transcription Jessica is basically blackmailing Crank over a misunderstanding in order to get an apology or admission of wrongdoing from him which I wouldn't do especially since that could open him up to legal trouble.
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On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry.
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All that needed to happen is one big team meeting with everyone. Everyone voices their opinions and issues, their goals and what they want to do in the future. Everyone understands each other, No one is left in the dark, no name calling or backstabbing or underhandedness. So simple.
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On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry.
That's my point. Someone said he was being a crybaby and weak for breaking down. I was attacking that view.
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On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry.
Bullied?
He even admitted that he lied to Jessica in the phone call:
Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation.
Choi: I did back then.
And failed to see why it's an important topic of discussion:
Choi: (raises voice) Why do you keep blabbering about the past.
Boxer asked him multiple times to discuss the situation in person. He gave Crank, who was emotionally unstable at the moment, the time to collect himself. Basically saying "Hey, you're crying, take some time, collect yourself and when you're fine let's talk again".
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On October 24 2012 00:40 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. Bullied? He even admitted that he lied to Jessica in the phone call: Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation. Choi: I did back then. And failed to see why it's an important topic of discussion: Choi: (raises voice) Why do you keep blabbering about the past. Boxer asked him multiple times to discuss the situation in person. He gave Crank, who was emotionally unstable at the moment, the time to collect himself. Basically saying "Hey, you're crying, take some time, collect yourself and when you're fine let's talk again".
Crank also said he did not want to see Jessica. Boxer wasn't saying it would be the two of them. Boxer also said if he just came and apologised it would all be over. Sounds like coercion and not Boxer wanting to be kindly and work it out with him. Boxer sounds like he wanted everyone to just make-up and get on with their lives. And you can't blame him.
Edit: And there's a dispute over whether Boxer ever contacted Crank about coming and meeting up. Crank says at the end that he will come if it will all end afterwards. Crank claims in his interview that Boxer never called or messaged him.
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On October 24 2012 00:32 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:30 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:29 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:26 Elfian wrote:
She took the money per the contract and gave it back later (they should have put it in before she told them to). It is in the Korean interviews. She is not a liar. You are truly Subversive per your name. Yeah whatever. Nice personal attack. Now you say whatever when I tell you she did not lie. I just dislike spreading false "truths". Apologies if I had been too harsh. No problem. From what I understood she had said earlier that she had not taken the money. But perhaps I'm wrong and she did say she gave it back. That does sound familiar. The part about the interviewer questioning her about it and bringing up the bank records seems odd then. But I might have misunderstood.
I can only find something this in the Slayers to disband thread (Waxangel translation):
"This is something I've heard lately, but there's a rumor that I've been running the team by collecting money from the players" where she claims she didnt use the money to run the team (which is different to a "I did not collect money" claim), which apparently is true when she was able to pay back said money.
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On October 24 2012 00:43 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:32 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:30 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:29 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:26 Elfian wrote:
She took the money per the contract and gave it back later (they should have put it in before she told them to). It is in the Korean interviews. She is not a liar. You are truly Subversive per your name. Yeah whatever. Nice personal attack. Now you say whatever when I tell you she did not lie. I just dislike spreading false "truths". Apologies if I had been too harsh. No problem. From what I understood she had said earlier that she had not taken the money. But perhaps I'm wrong and she did say she gave it back. That does sound familiar. The part about the interviewer questioning her about it and bringing up the bank records seems odd then. But I might have misunderstood. I can only find something this in the Slayers to disband thread (Waxangel translation): "This is something I've heard lately, but there's a rumor that I've been running the team by collecting money from the players" where she claims she didnt use the money to run the team (which is different to a "I did not collect money" claim), which apparently is true when she was able to pay back said money.
She implied that she never took any money at all. Then MMA said that she did take money and her stated reason was to help pay for wages for people like Cella. In this interview she says she did take some money, but that that was ok because it was a contractual obligation.
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