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On October 24 2012 01:12 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible. In your opinion, not in mine. We also seem to have different definitions of pay: pay/pā/
Verb:
Give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred.
Rofl.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pay
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On October 24 2012 01:15 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:12 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible. In your opinion, not in mine. We also seem to have different definitions of pay: pay/pā/
Verb:
Give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred. So korean team need to paid salary to thier players and stop to provide food/house?
Stop putting words in my mouth please. I was just defending my statement of Crank not being paid.
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Does anyone know why Boxer kept insisting on "resolving the matter cleanly?" From the reading the recording, it seems like Boxer knew about the call being recorded and wanted to keep things off the record/off the phone. He also knew about Jessica's destructive nature, taking everyone down with her in a fight lol. I think that's why he tried to prevent by meeting up and making sure they all understood each other.
If I understand correctly, Crank was considered the captain of the team, a responsible and trusting person in the team. When he found out about the MMA situation, he kept it to himself instead of informing Boxer, Jessica or the other coaches. I think that's what Boxer was critizing him for. Also, since he was considered the captain, when he left without properly informing the team, it made MMA, Alicia, Ryung not take the whole thing seriously so they all left at the same time as well.
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lmao I think Jessica is like Yoko Ono...just breaks good groups up with their presense...
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On October 24 2012 01:12 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:09 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible. lol free food, free housing... Which he gave up by leaving. Give me a break. And suddenly all the earlier food reappears? Time & money was invested into him. Again - since there was no contract it's legal to leave. And if your point is morals dont mean shit: Good, following your logic, dragging his name through the mud & destroying his reputation is no problem.
Good thing that my point isnt that then. My point is simply that morals are highly subjective and how you value a situation changes depending on knowledge of motive as well as consequence. Its a highly volatile area and one shoiuld be careful to judge things based on the fact that only one side provides evidence (due to being quite sneaky in my opinion, im not even entirely sure it would be legal to record phonecalls like that and later publish them in sweden). One would have to be extremely naive to think that what one side provides is the whole truth, and so since there were no legal obligations for crank to stay and he had already said he was going to leave after the season, I really dont care if he lied about why he left earlier.
If you actually want certainty that youre going to get something back for your investments, you have to make a contract. You cant come whining when someone doesnt do what you want them to just because you think that the world revolves around you and you gave them something. "but but but, he lied to me". "well was he under contract?" "no... but but but he lied to me". Well I personally dont give a shit, especially since he couldve told the truth (assuming he lied) and just walked out that door anyway so it really didnt matter if he lied or not, the outcome wouldve stayed exactly the same exact maybe the wrath of jessica wouldve been less. But who knows about that even.
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and then, the Interview Wars lasted for 2 weeks..
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Jessica seems like someone who has the best intentions, but just doesn't get 'it', without realizing it.
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On October 24 2012 01:28 Siphyo wrote:
Jessica seems like someone who has the best intentions, but just doesn't get 'it', without realizing it.
i think that she thinks that she actually matter
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Jessica seems to have some problems directly addressing concerns on her management.
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On October 24 2012 01:18 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:15 nOondn wrote:On October 24 2012 01:12 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible. In your opinion, not in mine. We also seem to have different definitions of pay: pay/pā/
Verb:
Give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred. So korean team need to paid salary to thier players and stop to provide food/house? Stop putting words in my mouth please. I was just defending my statement of Crank not being paid.
But he was paid in food, housing, coaching, so your statement is wrong. Your lack of English doesnt help you there.
On October 24 2012 01:21 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:12 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:09 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible. lol free food, free housing... Which he gave up by leaving. Give me a break. And suddenly all the earlier food reappears? Time & money was invested into him. Again - since there was no contract it's legal to leave. And if your point is morals dont mean shit: Good, following your logic, dragging his name through the mud & destroying his reputation is no problem. Good thing that my point isnt that then. My point is simply that morals are highly subjective and how you value a situation changes depending on knowledge of motive as well as consequence. Its a highly volatile area and one shoiuld be careful to judge things based on the fact that only one side provides evidence (due to being quite sneaky in my opinion, im not even entirely sure it would be legal to record phonecalls like that and later publish them in sweden). One would have to be extremely naive to think that what one side provides is the whole truth, and so since there were no legal obligations for crank to stay and he had already said he was going to leave after the season, I really dont care if he lied about why he left earlier. If you actually want certainty that youre going to get something back for your investments, you have to make a contract. You cant come whining when someone doesnt do what you want them to just because you think that the world revolves around you and you gave them something. "but but but, he lied to me". "well was he under contract?" "no... but but but he lied to me". Well I personally dont give a shit, especially since he couldve told the truth (assuming he lied) and just walked out that door anyway so it really didnt matter if he lied or not, the outcome wouldve stayed exactly the same exact maybe the wrath of jessica wouldve been less. But who knows about that even.
I already said earlier, and still do, that there is no legal issue here (due to the lack of contract). I agree with you there.
You say that you dont give a shit about him lying. and that "Talking morals is just ridiculous in this context."
And I say, if you take the point that talking morals in such a context is ridiculous, it's also ridiculous for complaining that Jessica washes the dirty laundry in public.
Because this is also not illegal, and the only problems with it are of a moral nature. Of course, if you apply different morals in each case you're correct. Of course exactly 2 morals where one is bad and the other isnt bad 
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lol they fed and housed to guy for a year and he just lies and leave
sweet jesus
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On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right?
No, but if not in contract, it is not fkin anyone's business what player does with his life.
And to add on that it would be like this:
Ballotelli: "Hey coach we havent been doing good lately, we need to do smth"
Coach: "No, its fine"
Ballotelli: "Team is unhappy with current situation"
Coach: "I said it's fine, i dont see anything's wrong."
Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse"
Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit"
**joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team)
Coach: "You lied to me"
Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? Our team was bound to fail and i tried to converse. I had no choice, im broke!"
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On October 24 2012 01:40 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:18 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 01:15 nOondn wrote:On October 24 2012 01:12 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible. In your opinion, not in mine. We also seem to have different definitions of pay: pay/pā/
Verb:
Give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred. So korean team need to paid salary to thier players and stop to provide food/house? Stop putting words in my mouth please. I was just defending my statement of Crank not being paid. But he was paid in food, housing, coaching, so your statement is wrong. Your lack of English doesnt help you there.
Okaaay, I thought I made clear which sense of the word "pay" I intended to use by posting the according dictionary response, you know, the one to which you made the polite "rofl" reply. I'll try to reformulate my original statement so that even you understand it:
"Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor did he receive any monetary compensation for services agreed to between both parties."
Sorry for the slight derail of the thread everyone, but unfortunately I had to answer this nonsensical pedantry.
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SO basically, what was pinned completely on MMA, Alicia, Crank especially, and the other A team SlayerS players is now turned onto Jessica. After reading this I'm actually upset at Jessica, she lied, blatantly no less. It's not as if no blame falls on the players, it does since we saw that Crank didn't act appropriately and that the players didn't enact change, they only asked for it; however, Jessica is the root cause for all of it.
- She is the reason people didn't want to play GSTL because she made them so stressed according to Crank;
- She is the reason Crank and MMA got badmouthed when they were relegated to home or the B team respectively;
- She is the reason that players had to spend hours going to and from GSL with no rides and then made the excuse that she cares by sending Alicia a rice cooker instead of using that money to fix the situation;
- She is the reason BoxeR quit, the reason that he left to SKT1 (which she just happened to have left that detail out of her original statement that she would argue with him and this, ALONG with his back injury caused him to quit playing);
- She is the one who bad mouthed her players consistently and then bound them into a contract which she did not tell them to get legal guidance on (that is incredibly shady, if she wants to be a good manager she should have told them their rights);
- She threatened players with INSANE fees that weren't justifiable when they asked to be traded, and even when they asked she refused to give them more than a day to think about it at one time.
I can go on, but this is what I see, which is a huge deviation from what had happened. She lied to us, she embellished heavily and she made players look so bad, for no reason, that their careers have been close to shattered (especially in the case of Alicia). It's not like the players have 0 fault, but this shouldn't happen again in e-Sports is we want e-Sports to be taken seriously.
EDIT: I suck at BBcode.
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You people do realize that almost no one receives actual "monetary" compensation in Korea for playing SC2 right (outside of tournament winnings)?
Point in case, Nestea and MVP were never salaried.
The fact that Slayers provided boarding and food is standard.
That they also provided a host of external benefits including rental cars, dental, and cosmetics is extraordinary.
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On October 24 2012 01:53 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:40 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:18 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 01:15 nOondn wrote:On October 24 2012 01:12 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible. In your opinion, not in mine. We also seem to have different definitions of pay: pay/pā/
Verb:
Give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred. So korean team need to paid salary to thier players and stop to provide food/house? Stop putting words in my mouth please. I was just defending my statement of Crank not being paid. But he was paid in food, housing, coaching, so your statement is wrong. Your lack of English doesnt help you there. Okaaay, I thought I made clear which sense of the word "pay" I intended to use by posting the according dictionary response, you know, the one to which you made the polite "rofl" reply. I'll try to reformulate my original statement so that even you understand it: "Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor did he receive any monetary compensation for services agreed to between both parties." Sorry for the slight derail of the thread everyone, but unfortunately I had to answer this nonsensical pedantry.
Some how I don't think people understand that arguing a legal contract missing wouldn't just remove obligations from Crank's side, it ALSO removes obligations from Jessica's side. So the entire argument is pointless. Why would Jessica have a legal obligation to Crank if they weren't even under contract? A contract goes both ways and all I've heard is people saying "it's fine for Crank to lie because he wasn't contracted" then turning back and say "Jessica had an obligation to help Crank's situation".
If I agree to work for a guy under verbal agreement then either I validate that verbal agreement as factual and binding, or I admit that neither party had an obligation to each other. I can't just pick and choose and say "Pay me for the amount we agreed upon, also I'm not going to work any more because you didn't put up the part of the bargain, oh also I lied to you but you can't penalize me because we weren't under contract." The argument is preposterous.
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On October 24 2012 01:57 lambac0re wrote:
You people do realize that almost no one receives actual "monetary" compensation in Korea for playing SC2 right (outside of tournament winnings)?
Point in case, Nestea and MVP were never salaried.
The fact that Slayers provided boarding and food is standard.
That they also provided a host of external benefits including rental cars, dental, and cosmetics is extraordinary.
thats sick, you guys realise how much dental / cosmetics cost in korea ?
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Ouch. I winced when Boxer said the line "MMA's thugs" but at least he was kind to Crank.
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well at least Boxer is aware of how destructive jessica is
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On October 24 2012 02:12 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:57 lambac0re wrote:
You people do realize that almost no one receives actual "monetary" compensation in Korea for playing SC2 right (outside of tournament winnings)?
Point in case, Nestea and MVP were never salaried.
The fact that Slayers provided boarding and food is standard.
That they also provided a host of external benefits including rental cars, dental, and cosmetics is extraordinary. thats sick, you guys realise how much dental / cosmetics cost in korea ?
Ain't nothing in this world for free.
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