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On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry.
He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that.
If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site:
Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse"
Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit"
**joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team)
Coach: "You lied to me"
Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!"
So if this really happened, it would be professional right?
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On October 23 2012 23:27 Irave wrote:This drama isn't very fun anymore 
There is fun drama but this is just sad drama (mostly because it includes the legendary Boxer). A great team like Slayers is going to fall and the last thing people will remember is the controversy before its disband
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On October 24 2012 00:42 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:40 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. Bullied? He even admitted that he lied to Jessica in the phone call: Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation. Choi: I did back then. And failed to see why it's an important topic of discussion: Choi: (raises voice) Why do you keep blabbering about the past. Boxer asked him multiple times to discuss the situation in person. He gave Crank, who was emotionally unstable at the moment, the time to collect himself. Basically saying "Hey, you're crying, take some time, collect yourself and when you're fine let's talk again". Crank also said he did not want to see Jessica. Boxer wasn't saying it would be the two of them. Boxer also said if he just came and apologised it would all be over. Sounds like coercion and not Boxer wanting to be kindly and work it out with him. Boxer sounds like he wanted everyone to just make-up and get on with their lives. And you can't blame him. Edit: And there's a dispute over whether Boxer ever contacted Crank about coming and meeting up. Crank says at the end that he will come if it will all end afterwards. Crank claims in his interview that Boxer never called or messaged him.
Q: Have you tried to contact Crank again after the phone call on August 10?
A: If you think about the hierarchy between the manager and the player, wouldn't it be wrong for me to contact him first? Crank should have called or texted me first, but he didn't. After that day, he acted on his own.
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On October 24 2012 00:42 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:40 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. Bullied? He even admitted that he lied to Jessica in the phone call: Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation. Choi: I did back then. And failed to see why it's an important topic of discussion: Choi: (raises voice) Why do you keep blabbering about the past. Boxer asked him multiple times to discuss the situation in person. He gave Crank, who was emotionally unstable at the moment, the time to collect himself. Basically saying "Hey, you're crying, take some time, collect yourself and when you're fine let's talk again". Crank also said he did not want to see Jessica. Boxer wasn't saying it would be the two of them. Boxer also said if he just came and apologised it would all be over. Sounds like coercion and not Boxer wanting to be kindly and work it out with him. Boxer sounds like he wanted everyone to just make-up and get on with their lives. And you can't blame him. Edit: And there's a dispute over whether Boxer ever contacted Crank about coming and meeting up. Crank says at the end that he will come if it will all end afterwards. Crank claims in his interview that Boxer never called or messaged him.
Knowing Korean, I would say it sounds like boxer just wanting to end this quietly for both parties (more for Crank.) He knows Jessica wouldn't stop if Crank tries to go against her. He is both tired and sounds like he is giving up because he feel betrayed and his dream gone so he doesn't want problems. That is why people in Korea are saying he is like a Buddha right now, just forgiving everyone.
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On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right?
Haha in that context it does sound pretty ridiculous.
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On October 24 2012 00:42 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:40 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. Bullied? He even admitted that he lied to Jessica in the phone call: Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation. Choi: I did back then. And failed to see why it's an important topic of discussion: Choi: (raises voice) Why do you keep blabbering about the past. Boxer asked him multiple times to discuss the situation in person. He gave Crank, who was emotionally unstable at the moment, the time to collect himself. Basically saying "Hey, you're crying, take some time, collect yourself and when you're fine let's talk again". Crank also said he did not want to see Jessica. Boxer wasn't saying it would be the two of them. Boxer also said if he just came and apologised it would all be over. Sounds like coercion and not Boxer wanting to be kindly and work it out with him. Boxer sounds like he wanted everyone to just make-up and get on with their lives. And you can't blame him. Edit: And there's a dispute over whether Boxer ever contacted Crank about coming and meeting up. Crank says at the end that he will come if it will all end afterwards. Crank claims in his interview that Boxer never called or messaged him.
Disagree with the coercion part (though that's probably up for interpretation), agree with the "just make up" part.
Edit part: see fluidin's explanation. Yes, it sucks from a Western point of view, but that's Korean culture and you have to accept it.
On October 24 2012 00:45 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:43 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 00:32 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:30 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:29 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:26 Elfian wrote:
She took the money per the contract and gave it back later (they should have put it in before she told them to). It is in the Korean interviews. She is not a liar. You are truly Subversive per your name. Yeah whatever. Nice personal attack. Now you say whatever when I tell you she did not lie. I just dislike spreading false "truths". Apologies if I had been too harsh. No problem. From what I understood she had said earlier that she had not taken the money. But perhaps I'm wrong and she did say she gave it back. That does sound familiar. The part about the interviewer questioning her about it and bringing up the bank records seems odd then. But I might have misunderstood. I can only find something this in the Slayers to disband thread (Waxangel translation): "This is something I've heard lately, but there's a rumor that I've been running the team by collecting money from the players" where she claims she didnt use the money to run the team (which is different to a "I did not collect money" claim), which apparently is true when she was able to pay back said money. She implied that she never took any money at all. Then MMA said that she did take money and her stated reason was to help pay for wages for people like Cella. In this interview she says she did take some money, but that that was ok because it was a contractual obligation.
I provided a direct quote where she only claims that she didnt use player money to run the team. Not that she didnt collect any money at all.
I dont see how you can call that a lie, I call that you twisting her words.
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On October 24 2012 00:54 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:45 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:43 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 00:32 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:30 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:29 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:26 Elfian wrote:
She took the money per the contract and gave it back later (they should have put it in before she told them to). It is in the Korean interviews. She is not a liar. You are truly Subversive per your name. Yeah whatever. Nice personal attack. Now you say whatever when I tell you she did not lie. I just dislike spreading false "truths". Apologies if I had been too harsh. No problem. From what I understood she had said earlier that she had not taken the money. But perhaps I'm wrong and she did say she gave it back. That does sound familiar. The part about the interviewer questioning her about it and bringing up the bank records seems odd then. But I might have misunderstood. I can only find something this in the Slayers to disband thread (Waxangel translation): "This is something I've heard lately, but there's a rumor that I've been running the team by collecting money from the players" where she claims she didnt use the money to run the team (which is different to a "I did not collect money" claim), which apparently is true when she was able to pay back said money. She implied that she never took any money at all. Then MMA said that she did take money and her stated reason was to help pay for wages for people like Cella. In this interview she says she did take some money, but that that was ok because it was a contractual obligation. I provided a direct quote where she only claims that she didnt use player money to run the team. Not that she didnt collect any money at all. I dont see how you can call that a lie, I call that you twisting her words.
That's just ridiculous... by your logic, she collected money but didn't use it to run the team. WTF she collect money for? To buy jewelry?
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On October 23 2012 23:55 fluidin wrote:
Hmmm... I think you guys really don't understand how Asian culture works. Korean, Japanese and certain Chinese ones are especially different from Western values.
When you look at things like the brand of Confucianism that ancient emperors popularized and got passed down, you might start to understand the difference in motivations between both cultures.
Isn't it telling that Korean netizens are angry at Crank and supporting Jessica/Boxer wholeheartedly? In this case, I believe a lot of korean netizens feel Crank (and MMA) has bit the hand that fed him. And this truly is taboo in Asian culture. In the past, people used to say that teachers are always right and students are always wrong, even if the student is correct. This shows the amount of significance and expected respect being placed on elders in authoritative positions.
As an example, you guys probably didn't feel that Crank raising his voice was any big of a deal at all. But I bet you the Korean netizens would feel that was a significant mark of disrespect.
Also, I believe there was a responsibility placed upon Crank to keep his juniors (which would include MMA and guys) in line. However he didn't fulfill this and made some dodgy moves that led to Jessica/Boxer's image of him plummeting.
We can judge these cultural habits as wrong, but in the end this is more domestic than international and I don't think our views will hold much weighted significance. I believe more respect for the Korean culture should be existent.
Great post. I was remembering bits of this from the puma fiasco and it's good to get a definitive statement like this.
I think discredits the Korean sentiment on the situation. We have no obligation to give the koreans a pass on the quality of their judgement out of cultural sensitivity. With my background as a liberal westerner, blind kowtowing to authority is foolish and placing so much weight on how rather than what was said is (when I can get this objectivity) the wrong way to analyze a situation.
To put Crank in the wrong because he raised his voice to a 30 year old star and then drag his marketability through the mud for some pretty abitrary reasons is completely nuts.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=321767
Another post about korean culture. I couldn't find the post by the english teacher about his experience in Korea. I remember he talks for awhile about the downsides of this implicit superiority of elders. There's also a discussions about racism and asian cultures that might be worth considering if we want to argue about automatically deferring to another culture.
+ Show Spoiler + Because this is the internet, obvious disclaimer that this doesn't mean that Western culture is better in every way itself and that there aren't worthwhile tradeoffs. To restate, my point is just because korean culture leads one to be unsympathetic to crank doesn't mean I must or even should discard my western interpretation of events. In fact, I might have an obligation to oppose an injustice.
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On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:
If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site:
Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse"
Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit"
**joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team)
Coach: "You lied to me"
Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!"
So if this really happened, it would be professional right?
Two points on this:
1. Unlike Ballotelli Crank did not have a contract with his team! (and he expressed beforehand that he wants to leave after the season)
2. If Ballotelli found a way to exit his current contract and joining ManU, than we would actually call him clever, because he played the legal game better his old manager.
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On October 24 2012 00:59 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:54 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:43 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 00:32 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:30 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:29 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:26 Elfian wrote:
She took the money per the contract and gave it back later (they should have put it in before she told them to). It is in the Korean interviews. She is not a liar. You are truly Subversive per your name. Yeah whatever. Nice personal attack. Now you say whatever when I tell you she did not lie. I just dislike spreading false "truths". Apologies if I had been too harsh. No problem. From what I understood she had said earlier that she had not taken the money. But perhaps I'm wrong and she did say she gave it back. That does sound familiar. The part about the interviewer questioning her about it and bringing up the bank records seems odd then. But I might have misunderstood. I can only find something this in the Slayers to disband thread (Waxangel translation): "This is something I've heard lately, but there's a rumor that I've been running the team by collecting money from the players" where she claims she didnt use the money to run the team (which is different to a "I did not collect money" claim), which apparently is true when she was able to pay back said money. She implied that she never took any money at all. Then MMA said that she did take money and her stated reason was to help pay for wages for people like Cella. In this interview she says she did take some money, but that that was ok because it was a contractual obligation. I provided a direct quote where she only claims that she didnt use player money to run the team. Not that she didnt collect any money at all. I dont see how you can call that a lie, I call that you twisting her words. That's just ridiculous... by your logic, she collected money but didn't use it to run the team. WTF she collect money for? To buy jewelry?
I'm pretty sure in her latest interview she mentioned that she used the money to buy things for the players, like recreational stuff. She also said something along the lines of "I told the players as a joke, 'you can sue me if I use the money for myself'".
Edit: This is the link to the interview: http://esfiworld.com/news/jessica-responds-mma-apologize-then-i-will-forget-everything-and-forgive-you
Here is the actual quote from the interview: "I then gathered the players and explained how this money will be used. I said, 'This money will not be used on me, but rather used on coaching staffs Ryu, Hong, and J manager's salaries, and the rest will be used on benefits for players.' The benefits here are better soccer balls, winter uniforms. and badminton gear for players who didn’t like to play soccer. I also used the money on taxi fees whenever I was unable to transport players. I even joked that 'You can sue me if I used it for my own.'"
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On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right?
Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid.
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On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid.
You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS
The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible.
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On October 24 2012 01:00 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:
If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site:
Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse"
Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit"
**joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team)
Coach: "You lied to me"
Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!"
So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Two points on this: 1. Unlike Ballotelli Crank did not have a contract with his team! (and he expressed beforehand that he wants to leave after the season) 2. If Ballotelli found a way to exit his current contract and joining ManU, than we would actually call him clever, because he played the legal game better his old manager.
Also who gives a shit what reason Crank stated for leaving earlier than he already had made clear. He wasnt under contract so he had no obligation. Talking morals is just ridiculous in this context. Last I checked we didnt live according to some Kantian maxim where lying is always wrong no matter who knocks at your door.
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On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible.
lol free food, free housing... Which he gave up by leaving. Give me a break.
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Something that stands out to me quite a lot is how much "foreign team" gets thrown around, as if wanting to leave the team for another Korean team wouldn't be nearly as horrible as joining a foreign one.
This whole fiasco is just getting pathetic though, someone needs to be an adult and decide to stop airing dirty laundry regardless of what netizens will think. Only Boxer seems to have any level of professionalism here
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You can argue that there was a verbal contract in effect but I have no idea how Korea handles stuff like that.
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On October 24 2012 01:09 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible. lol free food, free housing... Which he gave up by leaving. Give me a break.
And suddenly all the earlier food reappears?
Time & money was invested into him. Again - since there was no contract it's legal to leave.
And if your point is morals dont mean shit:
Good, following your logic, dragging his name through the mud & destroying his reputation is no problem.
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On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible.
In your opinion, not in mine.
We also seem to have different definitions of pay:
pay/pā/
Verb:
Give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred.
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On October 24 2012 01:12 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 01:07 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 01:02 ACrow wrote:On October 24 2012 00:45 Elfian wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. He is still not acting like an adult whether he is crying or not imo. His career is falling down because he made choices, but he refuses to acknowledge that. If esports is sports, think about this quote someone said, pointing out how ridiculous it would be, in a Korean site: Ballotelli: "I need to quit because of the knee injury; it is getting worse" Coach: "Okay, I'll let you quit" **joins Manchester United** (or advertises himself to join another team) Coach: "You lied to me" Ballotelli: "Why are you doing this to me? I'm just trying to make a living! You didn't do anything for me!" So if this really happened, it would be professional right? Except this is a stupid metaphor, since Crank was neither contracted nor paid. You seem to miss the part where he was paid: free food, free housing, Cella's time & other advantages to be on SlayerS The no contract part makes it not illegal - but the act itself is still contemptible. In your opinion, not in mine. We also seem to have different definitions of pay: pay/pā/
Verb:
Give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred.
So korean team need to paid salary to thier players and stop to provide food/house?
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On October 24 2012 00:52 Elfian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 00:42 Subversive wrote:On October 24 2012 00:40 Zocat wrote:On October 24 2012 00:35 Gaela wrote:On October 24 2012 00:27 Subversive wrote:
And western society - especially the UK, Australia and America - do take a very dim view on men crying. Whether it's the same in Sweden I don't know, but that's how it is here.
Errrrrr... ok. No we don't. We may pretend we're against it and laugh jovially in the pub.. but when it comes down to it I know no one in the UK who would look at this situation and say that Crank was 'weak'. His career was falling down around him and he was being bullied by someone who culturally he isn't allowed to speak out against - I'm not sure how anyone can look at that and think that they would not cry. Bullied? He even admitted that he lied to Jessica in the phone call: Kim: You told me you didn't even think about joining a foreign team. Let's talk within the conversation. Choi: I did back then. And failed to see why it's an important topic of discussion: Choi: (raises voice) Why do you keep blabbering about the past. Boxer asked him multiple times to discuss the situation in person. He gave Crank, who was emotionally unstable at the moment, the time to collect himself. Basically saying "Hey, you're crying, take some time, collect yourself and when you're fine let's talk again". Crank also said he did not want to see Jessica. Boxer wasn't saying it would be the two of them. Boxer also said if he just came and apologised it would all be over. Sounds like coercion and not Boxer wanting to be kindly and work it out with him. Boxer sounds like he wanted everyone to just make-up and get on with their lives. And you can't blame him. Edit: And there's a dispute over whether Boxer ever contacted Crank about coming and meeting up. Crank says at the end that he will come if it will all end afterwards. Crank claims in his interview that Boxer never called or messaged him. Knowing Korean, I would say it sounds like boxer just wanting to end this quietly for both parties (more for Crank.) He knows Jessica wouldn't stop if Crank tries to go against her. He is both tired and sounds like he is giving up because he feel betrayed and his dream gone so he doesn't want problems. That is why people in Korea are saying he is like a Buddha right now, just forgiving everyone.
Yep. This is why Western and Korean have different point of view. Because there's translation barrier, a lot of stuff are lost in translation. People should not nitpick one translated sentence and conclude your point with it.
There're something people need to consider.
- Generation talk: Jessica and Crank are almost 20 years difference in age. Their way of talking, their experience in their own fields of profession are different. Jessica wants to do it professionally while Crank keep having the i-give-you-a-hint-you-go-solve-it-yourself-or-i-leave attitude.
- Voice tones: The translation gives a vibe that Crank is bullied, but it does not seem so in the actual voice.
- Knowledge: remember these kids are not your typical western 23,24 years old kids. These kids don't go to college or university, they spend a great deal of time playing games (social influence mostly). You hear great stories about successful players who overcame barriers and parent prejudice and make a lot of money, but behind 1 story like that, there're dozens of other players who are gonna have hardship later in life.
From both point of view, it does seem to me that Crank, MMA, and others group up, having rebellious youth talk, but then no one admit to be responsible for others. I'd love to hear other players' pov, such as Miya, Brown,.... on the matter.
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EPT
