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i think sc2 is not big enough to support a pro-scene. But this does not mean it will die.
High level amateur play and smallish online cups can be similar entertaining, so there is simply no market for multi million dollar tourneys - because no one wants to pay the bill. You can create a nearby similar viewer experience with some 100 $ and a twitch account. Being the best competetive RTS game out there, SC2 will not die anytime soon. It would be a huge mistake to simplify/ease it further as current viewerbase is there exactly because they enjoy RTS not MOBA's.
Anyway blizzard should relax restrictions on mapmaking and mods, add LAN. Actually tolerating pirate copies could be an alternative to F2Play and make the game more popular again. The restrictions of BNET are a huge factor regarding dwindling popularity in PC-bangs. They should focus to enforce valid copies beeing used in tourneys and streams, but relax copy protection in private/closed environments. Maybe make WOL free as hots is out.
Many software companies don't get the fact, that pirate copies often times work like kind of advertising leading to more income long term.
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On October 21 2012 09:41 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 09:22 uzushould wrote:
As well you should think about how much does blizzard earn with sc2 and how much does RIOT earn.....bliz once sold sc for about 2 million times. It costs like 60 $ for the customer from this 60 there are about 10 % tax, 30 for the shop selling it, and about 5 $ transport costs, material costs and so on, leaves 15 for blizzard (probably less).
that makes 30 millions. Now discount all the costs for the server the production the support the public work sponsorships ....
they maybe made like 5 millions with it....thats it, they are not earning anything since then. They now can not invest millions into esports, it would just not be profitable.
You have no idea how the retail price is distributed. 30 for the shop? They wish. Profit margins on things like games are really low for retailers. $5 transport costs? Perhaps if you ship each box individually from Blizzard HQ. But once you bundle things in larger shipments, the transport costs per unit drop dramatically. The profit margin for Blizzard is much higher than you think it is.
i worked in a freight forwarding agency when i was young so i know pretty good how much transport costs. And sending goods from blizz to europe for example then partions to bigger warehouses, who send it to the compans consolidation warehouse and then send small packes with like 50 - 200 games to the stores, then add the costs for the duty (or if no duty the process and documents required) thats quite expensive altogether, then add the packing costs, the material costs for the game itself and if a company manages to keep this costs at 5 $ they did a fucking great job.
As well its not that the store gets 30 for the selling, but its not like the store where you buy it, buys directly from blizzard, the bought it from a distributor, and this distributor bought it from a bigger distributor....and everyone of them wants to earn some dollars....i just didn t wanted to go that deep into it explaining everything....but i think 30 $ for the hole selling is reasonable.
but thats not even what my post was all about, it was about how blizzard is not interested in sc2 having a lot of active players while RIOT is.
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How I know SC2 is in trouble.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gsX8E.png)
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I definitly think that the lack luster Arcade is a large part of SC2 losing its active player base. In WC3 most of my friends moved to DOTA. So when I logged in, they were still on, just not laddering, but playing DOTA or footy wars!!!! In SC2 they stopped playing SC2 all together. So when I log in, my friends list is basically empty.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote:How I know SC2 is in trouble. O_o wtf?
@thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2.
And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium.
That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options...
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On October 21 2012 21:58 Ammanas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote:How I know SC2 is in trouble. O_o wtf? @thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2. And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium. That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options...
I see that MLG mvp ppv at like sub 1000 viewers, it's pathetic.
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It's been said a trillion time, but I really think that if Blizzard add stream in the launcher, tournaments will probably double their viewers...
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On October 21 2012 22:02 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 21:58 Ammanas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote:How I know SC2 is in trouble. O_o wtf? @thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2. And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium. That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options... I see that MLG mvp ppv at like sub 1000 viewers, it's pathetic.
It's still 10k that goes directly to MLG. It's probably more than 50k free viewers would generate...
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On October 21 2012 22:04 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 22:02 Xahhk wrote:On October 21 2012 21:58 Ammanas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote:How I know SC2 is in trouble. O_o wtf? @thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2. And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium. That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options... I see that MLG mvp ppv at like sub 1000 viewers, it's pathetic. It's still 10k that goes directly to MLG. It's probably more than 50k free viewers would generate...
But still it shows that people aren't that willing. There were alot more the first ppv.
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sc2 gonna die soon. Blizzard just fail now compare to 10 years ago. Its all about the money. you suck blizzard.
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On October 21 2012 21:58 Ammanas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote:How I know SC2 is in trouble. O_o wtf? @thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2. And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium. That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options...
I counter your anecdotal evidence about you (and perhaps even your friends too) being hardcore Starcraft 2 watchers with my anecdotal evidence about knowing nobody who gives a shot about SC2 and hasn't done for 6 months. On the other hand, I have 'casual' friends who watched LoL championships and did so without anybody telling them where to go look or ANYTHING. They watched because RIOT told their players that it was going on and where to find it.
Also, you don't seem to understand how sponsorships work. You watch TV, right? And you have an idea how many millions are being spent on making each and every one of those braindead, half-minute commercials, right? And that companies have to pay millions more to even get the thing on TV? Why would they do that? Because of numbers, because of exposition. Basically, if what you are saying is truth, and that LoL has more viewer rotation than SC2, that is a larger pool of not as dedicated fans, that is even better than if LoL just had 650'000 hardcore viewers. That means MUCH, MUCH more exposition for the sponsors, that means MUCH more incentive to throw money at the game.
RIOT is minting it because the game is accessible, fun to play and supports the largest progaming scene in the world. The only thing in eSports that LoL's tournament scen edoesn't just flat out dwarf is the Korean Brood War Scene of around 2004. Anything else that we have ever seen, except PERHAPS DotA in China is just inisignificantly small. Hardcore viewers mean nothing if they are the only thing. They are the skeleton of the proscene, the players are the brain but the casual viewers are everything else. Without casual viewers the scene will always be fatally small.
Look at Quake. At a particular LAN, the organizers couldn't even get the monitors sponsored, so the fans brought them themselves. They lugged highdefinition monitors cross-country so they could watch Quake, because the sponsors didn't care. I dare say that beat anything the SC2 has to offer in terms of hardcore viewership. Still, who the fuck cares about Quake? And that is my point, and it has been my point ever since LoL gained the slightest amount of popularity, that casual players are important, because without them there is no scene.
Look at Bloodline Champions. Do you even remember that game? It was designed to take the Dota and LoL teamfights and make a super competitive game that could foster a tournament scene. 2GD played a part in making that game, if I recall correctly. It is an awesome competitive game, it really is, everything is a skill shot, everything is hard, all classes are mobile.
And nobody gave a fuck. It even had a tournament scene, and exposure at CyberArena tournaments in the CIS countries. Still, nobody gave a fuck.
No casual players, no scene. Deal with it.
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Why isn't the casual audience there?
Because idiot Blizz listened to BW elitists who did not like anything about WC3.
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On October 21 2012 23:02 teapot wrote:
Why isn't the casual audience there?
Because idiot Blizz listened to BW elitists who did not like anything about WC3.
HEY back off!
WC3 was a great game that required massive APM on individual unit micro.
The best of its kind.
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On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote:How I know SC2 is in trouble.
Good, as a caster he's been clueless and stuttering nonsense for the past year or so, it will give someone actually working hard a chance to make money
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On October 21 2012 23:11 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 23:02 teapot wrote:
Why isn't the casual audience there?
Because idiot Blizz listened to BW elitists who did not like anything about WC3. HEY back off! WC3 was a great game that required massive APM on individual unit micro. The best of its kind.
I don't know if you understood my point.
WC3 had better team games, better FFA games, better custom games, better chat system. Everything required to build a community was in WC3.
But Blizzard wanted to focus on the 1v1 pro scene that the TL BW elitists are infatuated with, and all that fell by the way side. This is their idea of starcraft utopia, there just isn't anyone in it - everyone is instead playing a game descended from wc3 custom map.
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On October 21 2012 23:19 teapot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 23:11 Xiphos wrote:On October 21 2012 23:02 teapot wrote:
Why isn't the casual audience there?
Because idiot Blizz listened to BW elitists who did not like anything about WC3. HEY back off! WC3 was a great game that required massive APM on individual unit micro. The best of its kind. I don't know if you understood my point. WC3 had better team games, better FFA games, better custom games, better chat system. Everything required to build a community was in WC3. But Blizzard wanted to focus on the 1v1 pro scene that the TL BW elitists are infatuated with, and all that fell by the way side. This is their idea of starcraft utopia, there just isn't anyone in it - everyone is instead playing a game descended from wc3 custom map.
lol what
Haven't you seen people talking about how they preferred old Bnet, BGH games, and even how you used to play 1s, etc to the current SC2 model of isolated 1v1s? You know, like the person who made the statement this thread is based on?
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On October 21 2012 23:25 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 23:19 teapot wrote:On October 21 2012 23:11 Xiphos wrote:On October 21 2012 23:02 teapot wrote:
Why isn't the casual audience there?
Because idiot Blizz listened to BW elitists who did not like anything about WC3. HEY back off! WC3 was a great game that required massive APM on individual unit micro. The best of its kind. I don't know if you understood my point. WC3 had better team games, better FFA games, better custom games, better chat system. Everything required to build a community was in WC3. But Blizzard wanted to focus on the 1v1 pro scene that the TL BW elitists are infatuated with, and all that fell by the way side. This is their idea of starcraft utopia, there just isn't anyone in it - everyone is instead playing a game descended from wc3 custom map. lol what Haven't you seen people talking about how they preferred old Bnet, BGH games, and even how you used to play 1s, etc to the current SC2 model of isolated 1v1s? You know, like the person who made the statement this thread is based on?
Eeyep, not sure what's he saying with 1 vs 1 pro scene, haven't Blizzard toned down the mechanics difficulty enough?
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On October 21 2012 16:17 Gonzo103 wrote:
I would describe my self as an casual player how likes to challenge my self. i love the strategic depth of the game and also the physical components of the game. I am gold so in the eyes of most ppl here pretty casual.
why i think sc2 has a problem:
- ladder system is failing to understand psychological behavior of human beings
your win/loss ratio is kept near 50 percent so you try your little heart out to win but at the end of the day you lost near the same amount of games you have won.
it don't matter that your MMR is raising you don't feel it. this is frustrating. It would be even more frustrating if you win more when you above the 50% skill level or less when you below.
If you are a beginner and almost always are going to lose a game, you will stop playing very soon. If you are in diamond and you win most of your games, it gets boring either.
With getting a higher MMR, the games get more interesting. That is why you play for. You still can grind total win numbers if you just win 3 out of 10 games. And you know that another day you will win 7 out of 10 games.
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On October 21 2012 21:58 Ammanas wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote:How I know SC2 is in trouble. O_o wtf? @thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2. And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium. That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options...
People willing to pay for SC2 stuff isn't the issue. Pay per view isn't going to fuel this business, large viewership numbers are.
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On October 21 2012 11:00 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 10:50 Gentso wrote:On October 21 2012 10:49 Gentso wrote:A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both. A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth. Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game. I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2. Man this come off as so ignorant, you label league a simplistic game lacking any depth like 100 other people on TL here and don't even go into any detail because it's painfully obvious the most time you spent with the game was less than 30 minutes. Are you some expert who can make judgements or generalizations without providing any support as you have just done? Gamers can't handle your game? That's you excuse for why SC2 can't attract players like LoL? Heh, I don't think this requires any refutation just reading the statement is enough to dismiss it immediately. I think the horrible trend you are noticing is that hardcore gamers have become a minority to casuals as games have become more popular with the mainstream; gamers themselves have not changed, it's not "they can't handle it", it's the majority of gamers are looking for something different than SC2 gasp. It's not realistic to think that someone coming into PC gaming for the first time is ready to devote all his time to SC2 to get to a level where he can even play the game. SC2 has done a terrible job creating an environment for casuals to enjoy, not "people can't handle the game" it's blizzard job to fix that.
I've detailed my opinion on the topic a million times, and plus I don't want to derail the discussion too much. First off, let me get two things straight. I've played quite a bit of League because my friends did. I started to play ranked, played about 15 games, and had a 70% win rate.Pretty confident I would've hit top elo, because I've done that in every game I play. Secondly, I'm not making excuses for SC2. I haven't played it for about a year.
Your second paragraph is just completely wrong. Hardcore gamers have always been a minority, but in the past games were different. Obviously the gaming community is constantly growing, but it all boils down to what the casual gamers are playing. The truth is that the generation of gamers that grew up playing older games can handle a bit of depth without getting frustrated because we grew up with those games. Nowadays gamers are spoiled to the point that if they complain loud enough they can actually nerf games to make them easier. A casual gamer in the past would play a few games of unreal tournament, a few hours of half life, age of empires, etc. A casual gamer today will log a few games of call of duty or league of legends. That would be ok with me if not for the fact that these same people also complain when games are too hard for them (WoW/Diablo nerfs, SC2 balance whine, etc), and the best developers giving in to this generation's dollar.This is why Valve has ascended to be my favorite game developer, because they and Gabe N were here from the beginning and they don't have corporate pressure. I hope to god Half Life 3 doesn't get dumbed down like Crysis 2 for example.
SC2 can never retain a big casual audience and Blizzard can't do anything about it without dumbing the game down considerably. This generation's casual will never play games like SC2, and I've witnessed it for myself. My friends are gamers of this generation and I tried introducing them to the games I've played, and they didn't play more than 3 games of SC2 without quitting, more than a few minutes on inferno without quitting, more than a few minutes of Battlefield without quitting, and more then a few games of DOTA2 before going back to League. My friends have actually said to me that they wish they could play DOTA2 and the level they play League, because they recognize that it's a better competitive game.That's why I'm saying SC2 is about is big as a game like this is going to get.
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EPT
