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On October 22 2012 00:59 Urasim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 00:49 thezanursic wrote:On October 22 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On October 22 2012 00:32 NightOfTheDead wrote:On October 22 2012 00:29 Urasim wrote:On October 22 2012 00:19 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars will be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2.
And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map. It is them who had to see all the potential. Fun fact: DotA in Warcraft3 was based on Aeon of Strife in Starcraft: Brood War. We wouldn't have DotA without Starcraft: Brood War. Probably, but we had Aeon on Wc3 also. Though the way it was evolving, became Dota in its' current form and when it became THAT much popular was on WC3 platform. In a sense, BW killed SC2. Never thought that I would say that. Wait what? His thinking: BW created AoS > DotA map in WC3 inspired by AoS > DotA spawns the Moba genre > Moba genre killing starcraft2. Of course the Moba genre isn't actually killing starcraft2, but that is what he is trying to get at, and I am guessing he isn't being 100% serious.
Well, it is pretty accurate actually. Moba is influencing the success of SC2. And probably in a negative way the way sponsors may go. Although it remains to be seen in the future, with our hope it is being the other way around.
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On October 22 2012 01:05 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 00:59 Urasim wrote:On October 22 2012 00:49 thezanursic wrote:On October 22 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On October 22 2012 00:32 NightOfTheDead wrote:On October 22 2012 00:29 Urasim wrote:On October 22 2012 00:19 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars will be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2.
And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map. It is them who had to see all the potential. Fun fact: DotA in Warcraft3 was based on Aeon of Strife in Starcraft: Brood War. We wouldn't have DotA without Starcraft: Brood War. Probably, but we had Aeon on Wc3 also. Though the way it was evolving, became Dota in its' current form and when it became THAT much popular was on WC3 platform. In a sense, BW killed SC2. Never thought that I would say that. Wait what? His thinking: BW created AoS > DotA map in WC3 inspired by AoS > DotA spawns the Moba genre > Moba genre killing starcraft2. Of course the Moba genre isn't actually killing starcraft2, but that is what he is trying to get at, and I am guessing he isn't being 100% serious. Well, it is pretty accurate actually. Moba is influencing the success of SC2. And probably in a negative way the way sponsors may go. Although it remains to be seen in the future, with our hope it is being the other way around.
Starcraft2 will only die when Blizzard kills it. Even if there are only ten people logging into the game it wouldn't be dead. Same goes for any game.
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Did someone use Nickelback to make a serious point earlier in this thread?
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Respect to Destiny he's totally right. There needs to be more casual options in SC2. Most gamers I know are intimidated by SC2.
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and now blizzard is going to take this the wrong way and release a patch 6 months from now that helps noobify all micro mechanics.
i don't understand why they refuse to make the lobby more social or remove the shitty macro mechanics that are repetitive and boring. THOSE are what breaks the casual scene.
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On October 22 2012 00:25 Chuggles wrote:
I play both League of Legends and Starcraft II and I feel that the main reason that I play League of Legends more is that it's unranked and doesn't matter if I lose. Sure with the introduction of an unranked ladder there will be more people going into taking 1v1 more seriously (as they can build confidence), but I think that Destiny is 100% on the ball here with what really matters. League of Legends feels like there's less on the line, and when you lose it doesn't feel like you're solely responsible. I find myself playing more team games in Starcraft for this reason, but there's only so much you can do until you get bored - and that's where the custom games should come in.
Fun fact: It doesn't matter if you lose a game of ranked Starcraft 1v1 either.
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On October 22 2012 02:26 Harbinger631 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 00:25 Chuggles wrote:
I play both League of Legends and Starcraft II and I feel that the main reason that I play League of Legends more is that it's unranked and doesn't matter if I lose. Sure with the introduction of an unranked ladder there will be more people going into taking 1v1 more seriously (as they can build confidence), but I think that Destiny is 100% on the ball here with what really matters. League of Legends feels like there's less on the line, and when you lose it doesn't feel like you're solely responsible. I find myself playing more team games in Starcraft for this reason, but there's only so much you can do until you get bored - and that's where the custom games should come in. Fun fact: It doesn't matter if you lose a game of ranked Starcraft 1v1 either.
Its irrelevant how important *you* think it is, the point is that many, many people obviously do feel ladder anxiety, and its probably because their rank and league matter to them if Chuggles is a good indicator. Sarcastic commentary that ignores reality isn't really helping anything.
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I believe Destiny is totally right on this one. Blizzard started off bad with creating battle.net 2.0, removing lan support and missing out on a dota clone and the huge mod scene of warcraft 3.
Now with the free to play games getting bigger and bigger, time is running out. You don't get the viewership back with HOTS if it costs any money, no matter if it is 60$ or 30$.
Or if the game is basically WoL with new harassment units which it shapes up to be.
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The fact that LoL is the number e-sport only supports my thoughts of people having horrible taste in games these days, not their fault I suppose younger ones were not around when quality games were being released all the time. Not that LoL is a bad game, not hating at all, just its been blown way out of proportion. I do not mind if sc2 (game is far from dead btw emo's) does keep this level of interest, maybe some gaming devs will be more inclined to start releasing some other rts titles. It should not dominate the whole genre like it is, its not that good of a game.
About the vid - Destiny is just worried about his falling viewer rates on his stream and stating the obvious mostly.
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On October 21 2012 23:35 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 11:00 DonKey_ wrote:On October 21 2012 10:50 Gentso wrote:On October 21 2012 10:49 Gentso wrote:A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both. A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth. Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game. I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2. Man this come off as so ignorant, you label league a simplistic game lacking any depth like 100 other people on TL here and don't even go into any detail because it's painfully obvious the most time you spent with the game was less than 30 minutes. Are you some expert who can make judgements or generalizations without providing any support as you have just done? Gamers can't handle your game? That's you excuse for why SC2 can't attract players like LoL? Heh, I don't think this requires any refutation just reading the statement is enough to dismiss it immediately. I think the horrible trend you are noticing is that hardcore gamers have become a minority to casuals as games have become more popular with the mainstream; gamers themselves have not changed, it's not "they can't handle it", it's the majority of gamers are looking for something different than SC2 gasp. It's not realistic to think that someone coming into PC gaming for the first time is ready to devote all his time to SC2 to get to a level where he can even play the game. SC2 has done a terrible job creating an environment for casuals to enjoy, not "people can't handle the game" it's blizzard job to fix that. I've detailed my opinion on the topic a million times, and plus I don't want to derail the discussion too much. First off, let me get two things straight. I've played quite a bit of League because my friends did. I started to play ranked, played about 15 games, and had a 70% win rate.Pretty confident I would've hit top elo, because I've done that in every game I play. Secondly, I'm not making excuses for SC2. I haven't played it for about a year. Your second paragraph is just completely wrong. Hardcore gamers have always been a minority, but in the past games were different. Obviously the gaming community is constantly growing, but it all boils down to what the casual gamers are playing. The truth is that the generation of gamers that grew up playing older games can handle a bit of depth without getting frustrated because we grew up with those games. Nowadays gamers are spoiled to the point that if they complain loud enough they can actually nerf games to make them easier. A casual gamer in the past would play a few games of unreal tournament, a few hours of half life, age of empires, etc. A casual gamer today will log a few games of call of duty or league of legends. That would be ok with me if not for the fact that these same people also complain when games are too hard for them (WoW/Diablo nerfs, SC2 balance whine, etc), and the best developers giving in to this generation's dollar.This is why Valve has ascended to be my favorite game developer, because they and Gabe N were here from the beginning and they don't have corporate pressure. I hope to god Half Life 3 doesn't get dumbed down like Crysis 2 for example. SC2 can never retain a big casual audience and Blizzard can't do anything about it without dumbing the game down considerably. This generation's casual will never play games like SC2, and I've witnessed it for myself. My friends are gamers of this generation and I tried introducing them to the games I've played, and they didn't play more than 3 games of SC2 without quitting, more than a few minutes on inferno without quitting, more than a few minutes of Battlefield without quitting, and more then a few games of DOTA2 before going back to League. My friends have actually said to me that they wish they could play DOTA2 and the level they play League, because they recognize that it's a better competitive game.That's why I'm saying SC2 is about is big as a game like this is going to get.
This is meta shift in these kind of threads. All discussion should start from this. :D
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Russian Federation117 Posts
Hope Blizzard sees it. He perfectly summarize why the viewership is down. And also why all of my friends have either switched to LoL or haven't ever played 1v1 SC2 ladder game and only playing 3v3 and 4v4...
Blizzard needs to put their shit together and i think the next patch is a step in the right direction, but a very small step.
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I say this while also being a LoL player, anyone who played both Dota 2 and LoL knows that dota 2 is a way superior game in terms of the skill needed, yet LoL is and will dominate it just like it will dominate sc2 in terms of viewers. Why? A large majority of gamers are simpletons who wants the easy entry level and low skill roof game where they can grind out games in zombie mode. Challenging games are not as attractive to a large group of players. This can hardly be news to anyone and it is just something you need to accept. Sc2 will never have LoL's viewers period, and it does not need to have them. sc2 needs enough viewers to function as an e-sport and attract pro players but it does not and can not "win" in terms of viewers, not without making it another dumbed down casual game that my grandma can play at the top level.
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On October 22 2012 02:26 Harbinger631 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 00:25 Chuggles wrote:
I play both League of Legends and Starcraft II and I feel that the main reason that I play League of Legends more is that it's unranked and doesn't matter if I lose. Sure with the introduction of an unranked ladder there will be more people going into taking 1v1 more seriously (as they can build confidence), but I think that Destiny is 100% on the ball here with what really matters. League of Legends feels like there's less on the line, and when you lose it doesn't feel like you're solely responsible. I find myself playing more team games in Starcraft for this reason, but there's only so much you can do until you get bored - and that's where the custom games should come in. Fun fact: It doesn't matter if you lose a game of ranked Starcraft 1v1 either.
Alot of people get the 'you just got raped' feeling after you lose a one versus one match where there is no overwhelming imbalance and no other person to blame faults on. The man on the other side had his way with you electronically and casual players do not like that.
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On October 22 2012 02:57 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 02:26 Harbinger631 wrote:On October 22 2012 00:25 Chuggles wrote:
I play both League of Legends and Starcraft II and I feel that the main reason that I play League of Legends more is that it's unranked and doesn't matter if I lose. Sure with the introduction of an unranked ladder there will be more people going into taking 1v1 more seriously (as they can build confidence), but I think that Destiny is 100% on the ball here with what really matters. League of Legends feels like there's less on the line, and when you lose it doesn't feel like you're solely responsible. I find myself playing more team games in Starcraft for this reason, but there's only so much you can do until you get bored - and that's where the custom games should come in. Fun fact: It doesn't matter if you lose a game of ranked Starcraft 1v1 either. Alot of people get the 'you just got raped' feeling after you lose a one versus one match where there is no overwhelming imbalance and no other person to blame faults on. The man on the other side had his way with you electronically and casual players do not like that.
Yeah and you get that playing LoL too when you get absolutely rolled. If anything it is worse in LoL because if you make a mistake there, not only will you lose but with the amazing community you have a 50% chance of getting flamed by your own teammates for the rest of the game.
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On October 22 2012 02:56 VanGarde wrote:
I say this while also being a LoL player, anyone who played both Dota 2 and LoL knows that dota 2 is a way superior game in terms of the skill needed, yet LoL is and will dominate it just like it will dominate sc2 in terms of viewers. Why? A large majority of gamers are simpletons who wants the easy entry level and low skill roof game where they can grind out games in zombie mode. Challenging games are not as attractive to a large group of players. This can hardly be news to anyone and it is just something you need to accept. Sc2 will never have LoL's viewers period, and it does not need to have them. sc2 needs enough viewers to function as an e-sport and attract pro players but it does not and can not "win" in terms of viewers, not without making it another dumbed down casual game that my grandma can play at the top level.
the first LoL-Player i see, who admits that Dota 2 needs more skill. All the others still try to convince me that LoL is "as hard" as Dota :D.
But hey Argument is totally valid.
And Destiny didnt even Mention that Riot buys their ways into tourneys etc etc.
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Posting in support of better custom games interface and a better, more fun, map editor.
The best thing WC3 had was the custom games section and a fun map editor. In combination these two things ran an incredibly creative community of gaming, that spawned THOUSANDS of entertaining games, with well made sleek finished iterations of hundreds of game types. If SC2 wants to have an active casual community (it should), Blizzard should do their everything to recreate this phenomenon.
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Destiny is so incredibly smart
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On October 22 2012 02:56 VanGarde wrote:
I say this while also being a LoL player, anyone who played both Dota 2 and LoL knows that dota 2 is a way superior game in terms of the skill needed, yet LoL is and will dominate it just like it will dominate sc2 in terms of viewers. Why? A large majority of gamers are simpletons who wants the easy entry level and low skill roof game where they can grind out games in zombie mode. Challenging games are not as attractive to a large group of players. This can hardly be news to anyone and it is just something you need to accept. Sc2 will never have LoL's viewers period, and it does not need to have them. sc2 needs enough viewers to function as an e-sport and attract pro players but it does not and can not "win" in terms of viewers, not without making it another dumbed down casual game that my grandma can play at the top level.
(not in reply to the quoted)
Blizzard could make the effort of re-creating the features, that made BW watchable entertainment for non-players. As far as I understand, not nearly everyone who watched broodwar during it's ascent were playing the game.
The basic game play of SC2 is not that entertaining to watch.
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On October 22 2012 03:17 Kontys wrote:
Blizzard could make the effort of re-creating the features, that made BW watchable entertainment for non-players. As far as I understand, not nearly everyone who watched broodwar during it's ascent were playing the game.
The basic game play of SC2 is not that entertaining to watch.
Actually if anything this is what defines sc2 as an e-sport. There are so many people who watch it without playing. 90% of people I know personally who watch sc2 does not play it at all.
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Not a fan of Destiny, actually I have a dislike for him.
But. But he is right in his point on this subject.
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EPT
