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On October 20 2012 04:23 zazen42 wrote:
People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
seriously just think about it and you will realize your not even making a relevant point in this discussion
that is besides the hots part
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I really think SC 2 is gonna be ok as long as SC 2 gets like 60,000 viewers it can grow. The problem right now is really blizzard is being so restricting. I am hoping blizzards WCS thing is amazing....But ya.
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@WoW-Arena und WoW >10m players
wow arena players were and are a very small minority of the entire wow population
@LoL is so easy, i can play it half asleep..
you do notice that the other team is playing the same game? It mind boggles me how someone can even spout something that stupid and not get kicked out of the discussion instantly. It is a pvp game - you get better, your opponents get better (this is called matchmaking). That you can pick the game up and not start at the bottom of the barrel as a (semi-)serious gamer doesn't mean anything.
Or is this supposed to mean that at a pro level all games are around 50-50 because both teams are hitting the skill ceiling?
SC2 is also "easy" to play, just go deep bronze (or somewhere way below your skill level), if you can enjoy a game were you get constantly told that you are playing on a really low level.
Of course LoL is more enjoyable to non-hardcore-competitive players - not because it is easy - because it is a team game, more social interaction, less anxiety and the option, should shit hit the fan, to blame your teammates. The most played game-mode doesn't have a visible ranking and and aside from that it got a lot of new meaningfull content, which you can aquire by playing the game.
PS/edit:
Just something that casuals would be interested in, we will get a gamemode in hots which is very similar to lol-unranked-matchmaking (a good step imho), let players there have the basic units for free and let them acquire some campaign-style units for winning x games/gathering y sc2-points, you could even patch some new stuff from time to time in. Hell you could even go the hero-wc3 path with that.
Yeah, that would create a disconnect to the "real" and competitive sc2 and yeah there would be an inherit imbalace (which you could put the blame on for losing a game) that would make every competitive player jump out of its seat, but it would be fun - and fun, like someone (thank you) mentioned earlier should always be the most important thing for every game developer ever.
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After watching this vid I felt like logging on just to see how "graveyard" battle.net 2.0 is, and considering I haven't logged on in 2 months (which already shows destiny's point)... 4 people playing WoW, 1 person playing d3, no people playing sc2... Log onto LoL, 10 friends online, 6 of which are currently playing a game. And considering my SC2 friends list is larger than my LoL friends list (I used that facebook integration Real ID thing a few times in sc2), this is pretty depressing.
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On October 22 2012 04:45 Black0ut wrote:
After watching this vid I felt like logging on just to see how "graveyard" battle.net 2.0 is, and considering I haven't logged on in 2 months (which already shows destiny's point)... 4 people playing WoW, 1 person playing d3, no people playing sc2... Log onto LoL, 10 friends online, 6 of which are currently playing a game. And considering my SC2 friends list is larger than my LoL friends list (I used that facebook integration Real ID thing a few times in sc2), this is pretty depressing.
Yeah, you've proven it. Sc2 is dead, you are all correct guys the game is over, let's admit it and move on. Can we change this thread now to discuss which game we should all switch to? I say World of Warcraft.
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On October 22 2012 04:45 Black0ut wrote:
After watching this vid I felt like logging on just to see how "graveyard" battle.net 2.0 is, and considering I haven't logged on in 2 months (which already shows destiny's point)... 4 people playing WoW, 1 person playing d3, no people playing sc2... Log onto LoL, 10 friends online, 6 of which are currently playing a game. And considering my SC2 friends list is larger than my LoL friends list (I used that facebook integration Real ID thing a few times in sc2), this is pretty depressing.
Granted I have a few more LoL friends than Starcraft, however:
LoL- 15, 12 playing a game.
Starcraft - 0.
Also after having said this, I'm deciding which game to play now, and It's LoL.
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bye bye sc2,,, bye bye blizzard u suck balls u greedy noobs.
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Do people seriously play LoL? On teamliquid?
I dunno... I think that game is the biggest piece of trash shit I've ever seen and played. It's like.. other shit games gather around and pray at this LoL game over how completely garbage it is..
and comparing LoL to something as Starcraft 2... Oh wow.
User was warned for this post
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What I really don't see how LoL and SC2 have anything in common at all. (Besides an ancient shared relative). The only problem I see is that some people rate Moba games in the same category as RTS, which is just not the case.
The chance might be a bit larger that an SC2 player would switch to LoL than to MW3, but there the similarities end. And if MW3 now was big in e-sports, would you start playing MW3?
I don't buy all the omg-we-are-doomed messages. Before SC2 I played AOE3 online, in its max it had probably fewer people active than SC2 will have in 10 years, and still there was no problem to find opponents. However that more SC2 fans would be willing to pay for for example HD streams is irrelevant, those things can be nice extra income, but can never be the main income of the e-sports scene: that must be advertisements. You can even see them as a kind of prisoners-dilema: if you have a relative popular tournament it might be an advantage to ask money for HD streams, but if everyone does it, it will kill the e-sport.
There are some easy/needed things blizzard could do however. As proposed here before adding the ability on your SC2 homescreen to easily select a tournament and watch it (preferably in-game, but via a link to a webpage would also be fine) would already help alot.
What is less easy, but simply needed, is to fix the broken matchups. Today I decided to watch some SC2 games on my TV. And we have DH going on: good idea, right? In the end I switched to the Iron Squid tournament since all the ZvZ and PvZ made me want to slit my wrists. Sure as terran I might be biased, but PvZ is so freaking boring. And ZvZ can be a bit more interesting, but in DH that was also mainly exact mirror strategies, where 15 minutes in the game the difference in tech research was something like 10 seconds.
PvP is then also a broken matchup, but at least is can still be quite enjoyable to watch with blink micro (at least in early/mid game).
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On October 22 2012 05:47 MasterFischer wrote:
Do people seriously play LoL? On teamliquid?
I dunno... I think that game is the biggest piece of trash shit I've ever seen and played. It's like.. other shit games gather around and pray at this LoL game over how completely garbage it is..
and comparing LoL to something as Starcraft 2... Oh wow.
obviously if it would be such a garbage game it wouldn't be that popular
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On October 22 2012 04:29 Gajarell wrote:
@LoL is so easy, i can play it half asleep..
you do notice that the other team is playing the same game? It mind boggles me how someone can even spout something that stupid and not get kicked out of the discussion instantly. It is a pvp game - you get better, your opponents get better (this is called matchmaking). That you can pick the game up and not start at the bottom of the barrel as a (semi-)serious gamer doesn't mean anything.
A good way how to define the complexity of a game:
+ Show Spoiler +Let X be the maximum efficiency a player can utilize IF he is in perfect condition and 100% focused. Let Y be the efficiency a player can utilize if he is in a less perfect condition (tired, drunk, mentally absent, emotional distressed,...). Keep the player condition constant, vary the game. The closer Y gets to X, the easier the game.
Example:
condition= "I am drunk and tired"
tic tac toe : I can play perfectly and without any mistakes. Y=X. EASY game.
Chess: forget it, Y is probably somewhere around 0.05*X. DIFFICULT game.
notes:
+ Show Spoiler +You don't compare individual players with varying values of X (maximum efficiency aka player skill). You compare different games in regard to a certain player condition and estimate the changes in Y. So telling me that a tired grandmaster can defeat a focused gold league player is totally besides the point, thank you. The point is that a tired GM player performs much worse than a focused GM player and a tired gold player performs much worse than a focused gold player.
I used a lot of terms in my definition which aren't clear at all. Like "efficiency". This definition is basically stolen from a text book about game theory (mathematics, not actual games i am afraid). It lost a lot of its precision due to my translation from math into english. But you should still get the point.
LoL vs SC2:
+ Show Spoiler +Obviously lol and sc2 are much closer than tic tac toe and chess. Also "measuring Y" is more a gedankenexperiment than anything else. Therefore the above definition is nothing but a suggestion.
Still: lol is easier than sc2. Deal with it.
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On October 22 2012 05:47 MasterFischer wrote:
Do people seriously play LoL? On teamliquid?
I dunno... I think that game is the biggest piece of trash shit I've ever seen and played. It's like.. other shit games gather around and pray at this LoL game over how completely garbage it is..
and comparing LoL to something as Starcraft 2... Oh wow.
May I redirect you to the LoL sub-forum on teamliquid!!!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=51
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On October 22 2012 05:56 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 04:29 Gajarell wrote:
@LoL is so easy, i can play it half asleep..
you do notice that the other team is playing the same game? It mind boggles me how someone can even spout something that stupid and not get kicked out of the discussion instantly. It is a pvp game - you get better, your opponents get better (this is called matchmaking). That you can pick the game up and not start at the bottom of the barrel as a (semi-)serious gamer doesn't mean anything.
A good way how to define the complexity of a game: + Show Spoiler +Let X be the maximum efficiency a player can utilize IF he is in perfect condition and 100% focused. Let Y be the efficiency a player can utilize if he is in a less perfect condition (tired, drunk, mentally absent, emotional distressed,...). Keep the player condition constant, vary the game. The closer Y gets to X, the easier the game.
Example:
condition= "I am drunk and tired"
tic tac toe : I can play perfectly and without any mistakes. Y=X. EASY game.
Chess: forget it, Y is probably somewhere around 0.05*X. DIFFICULT game. notes: + Show Spoiler +You don't compare individual players with varying values of X (maximum efficiency aka player skill). You compare different games in regard to a certain player condition and estimate the changes in Y. So telling me that a tired grandmaster can defeat a focused gold league player is totally besides the point, thank you. The point is that a tired GM player performs much worse than a focused GM player and a tired gold player performs much worse than a focused gold player.
I used a lot of terms in my definition which aren't clear at all. Like "efficiency". This definition is basically stolen from a text book about game theory (mathematics, not actual games i am afraid). It lost a lot of its precision due to my translation from math into english. But you should still get the point. LoL vs SC2: + Show Spoiler +Obviously lol and sc2 are much closer than tic tac toe and chess. Also "measuring Y" is more a gedankenexperiment than anything else. Therefore the above definition is nothing but a suggestion than anything else.
Still: lol is easier than sc2. Deal with it.
That doesn't say much about the complexity, but mainly about the amount of focus required for the game. If we follow this definition something like whack-a-mole would also be considered a complex game.
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Good points. People should recognize this to fix Starcraft 2 as casual game to bring more people.
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On October 22 2012 06:08 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 05:56 Grummler wrote:On October 22 2012 04:29 Gajarell wrote:
@LoL is so easy, i can play it half asleep..
you do notice that the other team is playing the same game? It mind boggles me how someone can even spout something that stupid and not get kicked out of the discussion instantly. It is a pvp game - you get better, your opponents get better (this is called matchmaking). That you can pick the game up and not start at the bottom of the barrel as a (semi-)serious gamer doesn't mean anything.
A good way how to define the complexity of a game: + Show Spoiler +Let X be the maximum efficiency a player can utilize IF he is in perfect condition and 100% focused. Let Y be the efficiency a player can utilize if he is in a less perfect condition (tired, drunk, mentally absent, emotional distressed,...). Keep the player condition constant, vary the game. The closer Y gets to X, the easier the game.
Example:
condition= "I am drunk and tired"
tic tac toe : I can play perfectly and without any mistakes. Y=X. EASY game.
Chess: forget it, Y is probably somewhere around 0.05*X. DIFFICULT game. notes: + Show Spoiler +You don't compare individual players with varying values of X (maximum efficiency aka player skill). You compare different games in regard to a certain player condition and estimate the changes in Y. So telling me that a tired grandmaster can defeat a focused gold league player is totally besides the point, thank you. The point is that a tired GM player performs much worse than a focused GM player and a tired gold player performs much worse than a focused gold player.
I used a lot of terms in my definition which aren't clear at all. Like "efficiency". This definition is basically stolen from a text book about game theory (mathematics, not actual games i am afraid). It lost a lot of its precision due to my translation from math into english. But you should still get the point. LoL vs SC2: + Show Spoiler +Obviously lol and sc2 are much closer than tic tac toe and chess. Also "measuring Y" is more a gedankenexperiment than anything else. Therefore the above definition is nothing but a suggestion than anything else.
Still: lol is easier than sc2. Deal with it. That doesn't say much about the complexity, but mainly about the amount of focus required for the game. If we follow this definition something like whack-a-mole would also be considered a complex game.
Well, i don't know, being tired and drunk doesn't make me much worse in whack-a-mole. But of course you can always be "too drunk", i guess  . I didn't want to give a super precise definition. But you need to start somehwere. And it is for sure better than saying "YOU CAN'T COMPARE PVP GAMES!!!!".
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Why are Starcraft 2 events still PPV? I haven't watched SC2 in awhile since switching most of my time to LoL, but when I want to watch some this MLG v Proleague thing is PPV. t.t Not the best thing for the scene.
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It's true, we need more viewers, the problem with the accessibility is that people who want to try it need to pay before playing, and only the multiplayer mode is fun, trial version does not give a good enough preview of how it can be fun, LoL is free so many people will try it, also, the casual scene is really important as he says, even if we have to see 12 years old people on Live events, we just can't loose to LoL !
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On October 22 2012 06:21 Headshot wrote:
Why are Starcraft 2 events still PPV? I haven't watched SC2 in awhile since switching most of my time to LoL, but when I want to watch some this MLG v Proleague thing is PPV. t.t Not the best thing for the scene.
where are sc2 going to get income then?
w/o ppv, the price pool will be smaller.
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On October 22 2012 06:21 Headshot wrote:
Why are Starcraft 2 events still PPV? I haven't watched SC2 in awhile since switching most of my time to LoL, but when I want to watch some this MLG v Proleague thing is PPV. t.t Not the best thing for the scene.
Because if sc2 is going to be a working e-sport ppv is the most stable source of income. You can't build a sport on sponsorship alone. The biggest obstacle to sc2 e-sports is people who want to watch it but are not willing to pay for themselves. This is a problem for all games, LoL included.
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On October 22 2012 05:47 MasterFischer wrote:
Do people seriously play LoL? On teamliquid?
I dunno... I think that game is the biggest piece of trash shit I've ever seen and played. It's like.. other shit games gather around and pray at this LoL game over how completely garbage it is..
and comparing LoL to something as Starcraft 2... Oh wow.
i play LoL
he plays LoL
we play LoL
theres a LoL forum on this site..
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EPT
