As a rebuttal to Artosis blog post, Destiny has tried to clarify his initial post by emphasizing the importance of the casual scene for the health of the pro scene.
There's actually a 500+ comment post on r/leagueoflegends right now talking about this issue:
"Do you think people are going to want to bust their balls playing 15 hours a day of a game like Starcraft 2 and make like maybe $100K when there are million dollar tournaments for League of Legends?"
"Do you think that sponsors are going to want to sponsor an event that gets 50,000 viewers on a tournament when another event that applies to the exact same demographic with a 95% crossover from other communities is going to have 650,000 viewers?" He asked rhetorically. "What do you expect there?"
People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
Way better on point than his recent post. He is 100% right. However I'd like to note that the average age of LOL players is probably a lot younger than SC2. So SC2 people probably have more buying power. Anyway this does not make up for the huge difference in viewer base.
On October 20 2012 04:23 zazen42 wrote: People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
All that is totally irrelevant in terms of esports because you can love a game to death but be a financial dead end.
On October 20 2012 04:23 zazen42 wrote: People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
I think you are alone with your opinion. Tons of people are switching to LoL (well not exactly 'switching' but devoting their time). Unfortunately very few people like you are around, which is clearly not enough for starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 and LoL are not that different in esports aspect. Its not like comparing Starcraft 2 to UEFA...
On October 20 2012 04:23 zazen42 wrote: People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
Like destiny said, it doesnt matter what one person thinks if the majority stop playing sc2. Who are you going to play with ? Insane AI or some super tryhard gosu?
On October 20 2012 04:23 zazen42 wrote: People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
I don't think he is saying that SC2 will die as a game. He is talking about the pro scene. Which does depend on viewers. Of course, the game itself won't die because of lack of prize money since 99.9% of games don't have a pro scene at all.
It's sad, but I'm forced to agree. I really hope there's some serious consideration being put into this in Blizzard, because the disparity between viewers and player base is becoming absurd.
On October 20 2012 04:26 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Way better on point than his recent post. He is 100% right. However I'd like to note that the average age of LOL players is probably a lot younger than SC2. So SC2 people probably have more buying power. Anyway this does not make up for the huge difference in viewer base.
I would argue this point of SC2 player base having more purchasing power as well. This would be demonstrated by how many people show up and pay an enterence fee to watch it live. MLG should be a good indicator of this, at least in the West. Watching something online, is good, but I think people buying a ticket in person says more about the purchasing power of that fan base.
That said, I know from my own small circle of friends, all who have great jobs and a lot of disposable income, that SC2 is losing their interest. They never log on to play and no longer watch tournaments. I was talking to one the other day and he asked about HOTS. I told him a little about it and his eyes glazed over. This is a guy who played 10k games of WC3 and several thousand of SC2. We need that spark to draw people back into the game.
He is 100% right but I don't think Artosis will bother trying to believe and understand what he actually says. Imho, Artosis is blinded by the ''beauty of Sc2'' and all that stuff.
This song makes me think of how the actual SC2 situation is atm:
How? Because it's the same thing. There are major problems, problems that must be fixed, and we, the people must unite and fix it... We must do everything in our power to make Blizzard wake the fuck up, theoretically we need to construct a 10 ton church bell and ring it so hard that Blizzard's headquarters shake and tremble.
it's always been like this and it's why developers are going towards EZ mode to make it more available to casual players. The thing is blizzard made this game easier, but it didn't make finding games in B.Net any easier and they admitted that and are working on it.
On October 20 2012 04:35 jj33 wrote: Not trying to be argumentative, but I am not clear on this.
I'm assuming most casual gamers do not watch sc2 tournaments much if at all. So how does making the game more "casual friendly" help?
I remember in the bw days, (when I was still playing) most people that played BGH etc did not follow the pro scene anyways.
I just think games like LoL is more appealing to the masses. I mean sc1/bw wasn't a game that had mass appeal too.
Once again not trying to disagree or be argumentative.
I disagree. I am your typical casual gold league player. I watch pro streams including Destiny's and tournaments when I can for free. Actually most viewers who watch tournaments are casual. That's the whole point of Destiny's argument.
I do agree with all his points, especially on Pros not seeing how important the casual scene is. This goes with a lot of us in this forum as well. We are merely a faction of the whole SC2 playerbase, and not even all of us care about the drama, the strategies, the players.
many of us complaining about SC2 being too easy compared to BW, or listing tonnes of reasons why game is boring (micro preventing spells like FF and fungal, with whole race over reliance on these spells), screaming auto mine/worker saturation number makes the game EASY, the UI problem, laddering Anxiety problem, no LAN, Playing SC2 feels so lonely because of the chatroom
I believe that a game popularity grows expodentally with it's player number, the lesser there is, the faster the number falls, only stablising when there is only the more core players who care about strategies or care about ladder
amazing skilled players do not draw people to play the game nearly as much as a fun game does. a fun looking game draws new players and a fun game make them stay.
Some believe making a game harder to play would make the win more rewarding. Some believe making the game easier to play would allow the casual to enjoy more. But the game should just be fun to play, not harder/easier.
and my main concern is HOTS doesn't look as fun as it needs to be
I don't think we really need a pro scene. The game won't die (there is no comparable RTS out there), so there will be enough opponents on bnet and there will be streams and high level play even with only 'amateurs' playing. RTS are nerdish games comparable to (partially) chess, i don't think they have real mass-potential. They'll have a stable slowly growing audience and player base, but will not be mainstream ever. soccer > chess . A big plus is that RTS tend to keep long term interest (if blizzard does not decide to simplify Starcraft further). This will make the fan base much more stable which is important long term. I think LOL will peak and fade away. A good, complex RTS will stay. So it is probably not a good idea to make sc2 more simple long term, as you'll get bored once the optimal builds+compositions are figured out. It was a major plus of BW micro-heavy design, that even after 5 years of play, new players and playstyles rose relying on specializing in microing specific units .
The thing with sc2 is once you get to masters it's like either you play 30 games a day and try improve or play X amount and maybe stay at the same level and you can't really try different strats because the game is unforgiving if you try and deviate from the meta unless you have uber gosu mechanics to make anything work.
Having played and loved both I think LoL is a superior game over the long term, as it remains fun and doesn't become a job like sc2 does.
"Do you think people are going to want to bust their balls playing 15 hours a day of a game like Starcraft 2 and make like maybe $100K when there are million dollar tournaments for League of Legends?"
its not about the FUCKING MONEY if you're only here or only playing sc2 to make money the gtfo! we don't want you if thats the case...we're all here because we love the game and if someone is exploiting its popularity to make money then fuck them
I'll be playing sc2 for years to come as i have these last few years and as i did with brood war all the years before it and yes sc2 is shrinking but this is long overdue, the tournaments with less money will die out and then we will have ourselves a set # of tourneys that we all watch and love. but now with a new tournament every fucking week and 10 streams across all languages and X amount of prize money and blah blah blah. im sick of it, i would rather play the game and only watch like 1 or maybe 2 tournaments that i follow like the gsl and osl and MAYBE MLG but that is usually a waste of my weekend because there is one casted match then 3 hours staring at a screen showing the audience (maybe thats changed recently but last time i watched mlg that was the case) i think the reason that viewership has dropped is because people are realizing they'd rather PLAY the game than just sit around and watch it all the time
Destiny and Artosis aren't disagreeing with each other. They are talking about different aspect of SC2. Destiny talks about monetizing aspect negatively, and Artosis talks about the game itself positively. I agree with both, which is possible because their points are not mutually exclusive.
"Do you think people are going to want to bust their balls playing 15 hours a day of a game like Starcraft 2 and make like maybe $100K when there are million dollar tournaments for League of Legends?"
its not about the FUCKING MONEY if you're only here or only playing sc2 to make money the gtfo! we don't want you if thats the case...we're all here because we love the game and if someone is exploiting its popularity to make money then fuck them
I'll be playing sc2 for years to come as i have these last few years and as i did with brood war all the years before it and yes sc2 is shrinking but this is long overdue, the tournaments with less money will die out and then we will have ourselves a set # of tourneys that we all watch and love. but now with a new tournament every fucking week and 10 streams across all languages and X amount of prize money and blah blah blah. im sick of it, i would rather play the game and only watch like 1 or maybe 2 tournaments that i follow like the gsl and osl and MAYBE MLG but that is usually a waste of my weekend because there is one casted match then 3 hours staring at a screen showing the audience (maybe thats changed recently but last time i watched mlg that was the case) i think the reason that viewership has dropped is because people are realizing they'd rather PLAY the game than just sit around and watch it all the time
dude, every company in sc2 wants to make money, that will not happen if there is a small audience for sc2 and a big one for LoL, we need to forget this "everyone's in it for the luv of esports" bullshit
When it comes down to it, money will overpower any beauty and technicality that any game has to offer. If LoL can generate more money, that's where sponsors will go. Destiny can not be wrong here as this is basic business fundamentals since as long as modern economics has existed.
It's hard to imagine how Blizzard can "save" SC2 and shoot up to 650,000 viewer tournaments. The game isn't suddenly going to be transformed and be made appealing for a large audience. It is now becoming the core game of the tournament scene and we will be playing second fiddle to LoL and DOTA2 from here on out. Don't be sad until it's gone forever, just continue supporting your favorite pros!
On October 20 2012 04:59 Davron wrote: When it comes down to it, money will overpower any beauty and technicality that any game has to offer. If LoL can generate more money, that's where sponsors will go. Destiny can not be wrong here as this is basic business fundamentals since as long as modern economics has existed.
It's hard to imagine how Blizzard can "save" SC2 and shoot up to 650,000 viewer tournaments. The game isn't suddenly going to be transformed and be made appealing for a large audience. It is now becoming the core game of the tournament scene and we will be playing second fiddle to LoL and DOTA2 from here on out. Don't be sad until it's gone forever, just continue supporting your favorite pros!
that's the thing, I never had this expectation of sc2 to grow so large. LIke I said, it's an RTS. RTS in general was never a huge genre.
Like you said, maybe it's the natural order of things, that a game like sc2 will never be as appealing / big to the masses like LoL or dota.
I think the big problem with starcraft 2 is that it doesn't have something to keep casual players there, and to keep playing.
I remember with WC3, they had daily tournaments ran by blizzard, TONS of UMS, chat channels for your friends, and ofcourse you could ban people out of your channel if they were annyoing! Watching replays with buddies. So what does SC2 have, a game that was released way after. The sad thing? It has NONE of those. So as a player, what drive do I have to keep playing? Rank up the ladder points? The options for selecting UMS is garbage, and if it isn't on the "front page" nobody will every join my damn game.
I don't really think Destiny is right in a sense. Blizzard can market SC2 all they want, but how do you know people will tune into these streams and what not? Well... The reason why LoL suceeds and Starcraft doesn't is because of the skill cap. LoL is very easy to start playing and understand, you can get fairly good pretty easily. But with starcraft that really isn't the case. It takes quite the long time to fully understand what is going on, and to grasp the game. I think that reason alone is why starcraft wont grow.
Why does Destiny make it out like LoL is just some random game just lying there, open for anyone to just pick up and win a million bucks? It takes some effort to win even in LoL.
With that said, I want to bring up a few things to balance his rather biased stance in the questions. First off he assumes that big prize pools equal success and a healthy game. While that is possible, in this case it's known that Riot sponsor many and most importantly the biggest tournaments themselves so we really don't know. Does Blizzard sponsor any tournaments? A few as far as I know, but the rest of SC2 tournaments are built on outside parties' willingness to put in cash. Furthermore there aren't as many tournaments in LoL as there are in SC2, so I wouldn't be too quick about deeming LoL the unconditional victor because there is one or a few tournaments with very high prizes. Also he seems to be disregarding the fact that prizes in LoL are split on what, 5-6 players (starting line-up + eventual standins) and potentially the gaming organisation behind the players takes a cut aswell. The thing with LoL I think is that the prize pools don't really reflect the difficulty of the game so it's a semi-bubble that way, but I suppose it won't be a problem as long as long as money is being put in.
Second: does Destiny have any information regarding the demographics of those "650k viewers" or is he pulling supposed knowledge regarding those peoples' preferences out of his arse? As far as I know LoL is particularly big in asian countries, the same countries where the wages are extremely low internationally speaking and people spend a lot of time in internet cafés because they simply can't afford computers and especially not fancy gaming peripherals. The fact that LoL is a free game is imperative to those people even playing the game, and them showing interest in it. Hell, i'd estimate the purchasing power among many of the western LoL players is weak aswell, as many are drawn to the game because it's free. Now, exactly how much effect does he think marketing will have when a big portion of the audience can't even afford the products marketed? LoL is known for directing people to tournament streams from within the game browser itself, so logically you'd expect the viewers of the stream to consist of a lot of the beforementioned people because they are probably a majority of the LoL player base. I remember Destiny being fond of the marketing term conversion rate, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the aggregated CR for those 50k SC2 viewers wasn't that much less than for those "650k" LoL viewers.
On October 20 2012 04:37 rift wrote: I'd like the community to be smaller and more mature. Fewer tournaments would be nice as well.
I don't know about smaller, but more mature definitely. And fewer tourneys too, I feel like i've watched enough gaming streams for a life time in the last 2 years
Why do people complain about UMS? If it's lack of variety it's the fault of the community... but it is so much easier to find UMS now than before. Wc3 FT and BW was open UMS list, refresh until you find a game you want, hope your friends get in.
On October 20 2012 05:06 VPVanek wrote: I think the big problem with starcraft 2 is that it doesn't have something to keep casual players there, and to keep playing.
I remember with WC3, they had daily tournaments ran by blizzard, TONS of UMS, chat channels for your friends, and ofcourse you could ban people out of your channel if they were annyoing! Watching replays with buddies. So what does SC2 have, a game that was released way after. The sad thing? It has NONE of those. So as a player, what drive do I have to keep playing? Rank up the ladder points? The options for selecting UMS is garbage, and if it isn't on the "front page" nobody will every join my damn game.
I don't really think Destiny is right in a sense. Blizzard can market SC2 all they want, but how do you know people will tune into these streams and what not? Well... The reason why LoL suceeds and Starcraft doesn't is because of the skill cap. LoL is very easy to start playing and understand, you can get fairly good pretty easily. But with starcraft that really isn't the case. It takes quite the long time to fully understand what is going on, and to grasp the game. I think that reason alone is why starcraft wont grow.
Even with all those features you listed that wc3 had, I remember when dota popped up, it still kicked wc3's ass.
I agree, as I said as well, games like LoL naturally have more appeal than a game like sc2.
On October 20 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: I don't think we really need a pro scene. The game won't die (there is no comparable RTS out there), so there will be enough opponents on bnet and there will be streams and high level play even with only 'amateurs' playing. RTS are nerdish games comparable to (partially) chess, i don't think they have real mass-potential. They'll have a stable slowly growing audience and player base, but will not be mainstream ever. soccer > chess . A big plus is that RTS tend to keep long term interest (if blizzard does not decide to simplify Starcraft further). This will make the fan base much more stable which is important long term. I think LOL will peak and fade away. A good, complex RTS will stay. So it is probably not a good idea to make sc2 more simple long term, as you'll get bored once the optimal builds+compositions are figured out. It was a major plus of BW micro-heavy design, that even after 5 years of play, new players and playstyles rose relying on specializing in microing specific units .
I agree with you there but the point is that we SC2 players want SC2 to be THE esport game. We want it to be the biggest and best game out there. SC2 was support to revitalize the BW scene but it didn't happen. The foreign community did embrace it but it's now slowly deteriorating due to several reasons. Mainly lack of sponsorship. And there isn't much sponsorship because of viewership. That's just one of the reasons. Not to mention the whole balance side of things and how hard it is to watch zvp.
On October 20 2012 05:07 Mouzone wrote: Why does Destiny make it out like LoL is just some random game just lying there, open for anyone to just pick up and win a million bucks? It takes some effort to win even in LoL.
With that said, I want to bring up a few things to balance his rather biased stance in the questions. First off he assumes that big prize pools equal success and a healthy game. While that is possible, in this case it's known that Riot sponsor many and most importantly the biggest tournaments themselves so we really don't know. Does Blizzard sponsor any tournaments? A few as far as I know, but the rest of SC2 tournaments are built on outside parties' willingness to put in cash. Furthermore there aren't as many tournaments in LoL as there are in SC2, so I wouldn't be too quick about deeming LoL the unconditional victor because there is one or a few tournaments with very high prizes. Also he seems to be disregarding the fact that prizes in LoL are split on what, 5-6 players (starting line-up + eventual standins) and potentially the gaming organisation behind the players takes a cut aswell. The thing with LoL I think is that the prize pools don't really reflect the difficulty of the game so it's a semi-bubble that way, but I suppose it won't be a problem as long as long as money is being put in.
Second: does Destiny have any information regarding the demographics of those "650k viewers" or is he pulling supposed knowledge regarding those peoples' preferences out of his arse? As far as I know LoL is particularly big in asian countries, the same countries where the wages are extremely low internationally speaking and people spend a lot of time in internet cafés because they simply can't afford computers and especially not fancy gaming peripherals. The fact that LoL is a free game is imperative to those people even playing the game, and them showing interest in it. Hell, i'd estimate the purchasing power among many of the western LoL players is weak aswell, as many are drawn to the game because it's free. Now, exactly how much effect does he think marketing will have when a big portion of the audience can't even afford the products marketed? LoL is known for directing people to tournament streams from within the game browser itself, so logically you'd expect the viewers of the stream to consist of a lot of the beforementioned people because they are probably a majority of the LoL player base. I remember Destiny being fond of the marketing term conversion rate, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the aggregated CR for those 50k SC2 viewers wasn't that much less than for those "650k" LoL viewers.
Strawman fallacy much? That's not the point he made. The point he's making is that Riot caters to casual gamers very well to a point that those gamers will play the same game over a long period of time, compared to SC2 which is very hardcore in comparision. Log into b.net and it tries to get you to ladder which is intimidating to casuals. Look at it from the perspective of a gold leaguer who plays for fun. Most people who ladder get burned out in a few months and when they want to relax and play customs, the system for custom games just sucks.
And yes, League of Legends actually did get 650k viewers. And no, this is not just Riot doing their usual direct players to stream as you've pointed out. The actual venue of the championships was filled to the brim with people.
People seem to misunderstand things like this. Catering to casual players doesn't mean dumbing down the 1v1. In fact, Casuals don't PLAY 1v1. SC, both BW and 2, are essentially two games packaged as one. You have the ladder, 1v1 tryhard, highly competitive, and then you have Custom/UMS games. Nexus Wars, Mineralz, Starjeweled, and the like.
Fact is, I haven't played any form of ladder in over a year now. I'm a competitive gamer, but a competitive FPS player, and relearning my entire approach to play isn't really worth it because I always go back to FPS. The custom games however are great and I play at least every other day, they're fun and lower pressure. THATS what needs focus. Not only the custom side, but user interaction. Chat rooms, groups, etc etc. Battle.net 2.0 is a dead, empty place, with empty space and a hard to use interface when it comes to finding people and finding custom games.
I agree that focusing almost entirely on ladder/melee was, and is a mistake. Sadly, from the screens released for HoTS, it doesn't seem thats changed much (just made prettier), and is likely not a game I or a LOT of other people are going to pick up because of that.
On October 20 2012 05:07 Mouzone wrote: Why does Destiny make it out like LoL is just some random game just lying there, open for anyone to just pick up and win a million bucks? It takes some effort to win even in LoL.
With that said, I want to bring up a few things to balance his rather biased stance in the questions. First off he assumes that big prize pools equal success and a healthy game. While that is possible, in this case it's known that Riot sponsor many and most importantly the biggest tournaments themselves so we really don't know. Does Blizzard sponsor any tournaments? A few as far as I know, but the rest of SC2 tournaments are built on outside parties' willingness to put in cash. Furthermore there aren't as many tournaments in LoL as there are in SC2, so I wouldn't be too quick about deeming LoL the unconditional victor because there is one or a few tournaments with very high prizes. Also he seems to be disregarding the fact that prizes in LoL are split on what, 5-6 players (starting line-up + eventual standins) and potentially the gaming organisation behind the players takes a cut aswell. The thing with LoL I think is that the prize pools don't really reflect the difficulty of the game so it's a semi-bubble that way, but I suppose it won't be a problem as long as long as money is being put in.
Second: does Destiny have any information regarding the demographics of those "650k viewers" or is he pulling supposed knowledge regarding those peoples' preferences out of his arse? As far as I know LoL is particularly big in asian countries, the same countries where the wages are extremely low internationally speaking and people spend a lot of time in internet cafés because they simply can't afford computers and especially not fancy gaming peripherals. The fact that LoL is a free game is imperative to those people even playing the game, and them showing interest in it. Hell, i'd estimate the purchasing power among many of the western LoL players is weak aswell, as many are drawn to the game because it's free. Now, exactly how much effect does he think marketing will have when a big portion of the audience can't even afford the products marketed? LoL is known for directing people to tournament streams from within the game browser itself, so logically you'd expect the viewers of the stream to consist of a lot of the beforementioned people because they are probably a majority of the LoL player base. I remember Destiny being fond of the marketing term conversion rate, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the aggregated CR for those 50k SC2 viewers wasn't that much less than for those "650k" LoL viewers.
I measure success of any game by amount of people playing it. Viewership and tournaments are just a secondary stuff which completely depend on number of players. For example, if 10m people play the game there is a good chance that 50k will be interested in watching it, hence there is a reason to sponsor a tournament.
Delibarately making a game difficult, and hoping that ordinary people will come to watch how some guys pulling off some stuff they could never do, is at the very least stupid.
"Do you think people are going to want to bust their balls playing 15 hours a day of a game like Starcraft 2 and make like maybe $100K when there are million dollar tournaments for League of Legends?"
its not about the FUCKING MONEY if you're only here or only playing sc2 to make money the gtfo! we don't want you if thats the case...we're all here because we love the game and if someone is exploiting its popularity to make money then fuck them
I'll be playing sc2 for years to come as i have these last few years and as i did with brood war all the years before it and yes sc2 is shrinking but this is long overdue, the tournaments with less money will die out and then we will have ourselves a set # of tourneys that we all watch and love. but now with a new tournament every fucking week and 10 streams across all languages and X amount of prize money and blah blah blah. im sick of it, i would rather play the game and only watch like 1 or maybe 2 tournaments that i follow like the gsl and osl and MAYBE MLG but that is usually a waste of my weekend because there is one casted match then 3 hours staring at a screen showing the audience (maybe thats changed recently but last time i watched mlg that was the case) i think the reason that viewership has dropped is because people are realizing they'd rather PLAY the game than just sit around and watch it all the time
dude, every company in sc2 wants to make money, that will not happen if there is a small audience for sc2 and a big one for LoL, we need to forget this "everyone's in it for the luv of esports" bullshit
all im saying is if the players are here for the money, the quote was talking about the players, if you're only playing to make money of course you're going to want to stop because there is no genuine love of the game. and with koreans being so much better than us anyone only playing for money is going to become real poor real quick because they don't have the passion to back up the time spent playing so they'll eventually spend less time playing and more time doing other things because they can't keep up with the practice, thus they'll lose more and make less.
let's look at counter strike for example MOST top level players in cs actually have full time jobs while playing on the side because they love it and its because of that love the cs has managed to stay somewhat alive for so long whereas many sc2 players ONLY play sc2 which just isn't profitable unless you are a top player. right now there are too many players and not enough money in the scene to keep them all here so we need to see a shrinking of the scene so that the few genuinely skilled players remaining so that we can see not only top level games but people who can actually play full time. Right now the definition of sc2 pro seems to be any chump who gets into masters and make a little money doing playhem tourney's and such and that just isn't sustainable
LoL stream numbers are massively inflated, I wonder what the real numbers are. Still higher than SC2 by far but not quite as staggering as some people suggest.
On October 20 2012 05:07 Mouzone wrote: Why does Destiny make it out like LoL is just some random game just lying there, open for anyone to just pick up and win a million bucks? It takes some effort to win even in LoL.
With that said, I want to bring up a few things to balance his rather biased stance in the questions. First off he assumes that big prize pools equal success and a healthy game. While that is possible, in this case it's known that Riot sponsor many and most importantly the biggest tournaments themselves so we really don't know. Does Blizzard sponsor any tournaments? A few as far as I know, but the rest of SC2 tournaments are built on outside parties' willingness to put in cash. Furthermore there aren't as many tournaments in LoL as there are in SC2, so I wouldn't be too quick about deeming LoL the unconditional victor because there is one or a few tournaments with very high prizes. Also he seems to be disregarding the fact that prizes in LoL are split on what, 5-6 players (starting line-up + eventual standins) and potentially the gaming organisation behind the players takes a cut aswell. The thing with LoL I think is that the prize pools don't really reflect the difficulty of the game so it's a semi-bubble that way, but I suppose it won't be a problem as long as long as money is being put in.
Second: does Destiny have any information regarding the demographics of those "650k viewers" or is he pulling supposed knowledge regarding those peoples' preferences out of his arse? As far as I know LoL is particularly big in asian countries, the same countries where the wages are extremely low internationally speaking and people spend a lot of time in internet cafés because they simply can't afford computers and especially not fancy gaming peripherals. The fact that LoL is a free game is imperative to those people even playing the game, and them showing interest in it. Hell, i'd estimate the purchasing power among many of the western LoL players is weak aswell, as many are drawn to the game because it's free. Now, exactly how much effect does he think marketing will have when a big portion of the audience can't even afford the products marketed? LoL is known for directing people to tournament streams from within the game browser itself, so logically you'd expect the viewers of the stream to consist of a lot of the beforementioned people because they are probably a majority of the LoL player base. I remember Destiny being fond of the marketing term conversion rate, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the aggregated CR for those 50k SC2 viewers wasn't that much less than for those "650k" LoL viewers.
I was about to argue your point but you've made it for me. I'd clarify however, that the simplicity and accessibility of LoL means a lot of people play it. I'd assume most people interested in watching League of Legends are more likely to be players for those two reasons.
On October 20 2012 05:20 bokeevboke wrote: Delibarately making a game difficult, and hoping that ordinary people will come to watch how some guys pulling off some stuff they could never do, is at the very least stupid.
On October 20 2012 05:22 BreakfastBurrito wrote: LoL stream numbers are massively inflated, I wonder what the real numbers are. Still higher than SC2 by far but not quite as staggering as some people suggest.
The only point I have to somewhat challenge is the "100k" vs "1mil." The prize is divided five ways, so it'd be $200k per person. However, this brings another point: there should be less tournaments so that more money could go to those fewer tournaments. Just a thought.
I really like Destiny's thoughts here, though. He usually has well thought out arguments. A lot this week.
On October 20 2012 04:49 ETisME wrote: ... Some believe making a game harder to play would make the win more rewarding. Some believe making the game easier to play would allow the casual to enjoy more. But the game should just be fun to play, not harder/easier.
On October 20 2012 05:17 r4pture wrote: People seem to misunderstand things like this. Catering to casual players doesn't mean dumbing down the 1v1. In fact, Casuals don't PLAY 1v1. SC, both BW and 2, are essentially two games packaged as one. You have the ladder, 1v1 tryhard, highly competitive, and then you have Custom/UMS games. Nexus Wars, Mineralz, Starjeweled, and the like.
Fact is, I haven't played any form of ladder in over a year now. I'm a competitive gamer, but a competitive FPS player, and relearning my entire approach to play isn't really worth it because I always go back to FPS. The custom games however are great and I play at least every other day, they're fun and lower pressure. THATS what needs focus. Not only the custom side, but user interaction. Chat rooms, groups, etc etc. Battle.net 2.0 is a dead, empty place, with empty space and a hard to use interface when it comes to finding people and finding custom games.
I agree that focusing almost entirely on ladder/melee was, and is a mistake. Sadly, from the screens released for HoTS, it doesn't seem thats changed much (just made prettier), and is likely not a game I or a LOT of other people are going to pick up because of that.
Totally agree with both!
I see myself playing less and less, the game is just becoming boring. Battle.net feels so lonely... Why dont they start the SC2 game with a big live chatroom and all kind of buttons to interact with others and play games just for fun? I hope this will get improved in HOTS.
Do we actually have some solid numbers on the number of people who still play SC2? I remember there used to be some threads on TL that showed graphs of how many players played the game in Season 2 compared to Season 3 for example, and we saw a dramatic decline. I wonder what its like today, in comparison with the past. But it would be good to have both viewers and players in that graphic.
Anyway Destiny is right, but there will always be a niche market for SC2 that will allow people to have their tournaments, which is as it should be. The size and pool for tournaments should be proportional to the number of people who enjoy the game; if its small then its small.
I feel like some people are in denial, some want SC2 to be the greatest esport of all time and can't accept that others like other games more, so they denigrate them as stupid or blame sponsors for not investing enough, or blame Blizzard for not advertising enough. The problem isn't anything except SC2 itself. The game is simply not appealing enough to the vast majority of people, and by now I doubt that anything is going to make people seriously reconsider.
On October 20 2012 04:23 zazen42 wrote: People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
I think you are alone with your opinion. Tons of people are switching to LoL (well not exactly 'switching' but devoting their time). Unfortunately very few people like you are around, which is clearly not enough for starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 and LoL are not that different in esports aspect. Its not like comparing Starcraft 2 to UEFA...
He's not alone. I don't care about LoL or Dota, I would never play or watch them, they're not interesting to me. SC2 is for me a much deeper, more interesting game.
As much as I don't like Destiny, he does make a valid point about Battle.net 2.0 being a graveyard. I haven't bothered with Arcade mode, but from what I've seen it's alright. Blizzard's biggest mistake was releasing Bnet 2.0 as it was (even as it is). The terrible custom game setup and the lack of chat support drove a lot of casual players and modders away. After the release the game was hugely popular (well and still is) and Blizzard focused on balancing the game, instead of focusing on the modding community, which, as it turns out, was a mistake.
SC2 is a brilliant game, but I do miss the stupid titles on custom games, the public games with obs, the trivia bots in the chat, the clan wars, battle.net tournament, etc. These are all things Blizzard can improve on and HOTS is their chance to get back lost players and attract new people. They can do it and I am sure they will, I just hope it's not too late.
On October 20 2012 05:25 namori wrote: Wow people shunning artosis' passion and siding with someone like destiny who just want more casual players to watch his stream
Wow youre being dramatic and prejudicial. Use your head. Youre just blindly infatuated with Artosis because of his stature in the community and blindly hating Destiny because of unrelated past incidences. Try actually listening to what he has to say and you'll probably agree with him.
I like Artosis' passion, thats what makes the pro scene so great. People who care about the game can strive to reach new heights without much motivation other than their love for the game. Thats why there's such a separation between the pros and us casuals and thats what makes the major tournaments so impressive. However, Destiny is absolutely right in that going on and on about the "beauty" of this game does nothing to stop the dwindling of the fan base. Catering balance decisions towards the pro community is great for the legitimacy of the game, but ignoring the casual fan base in the process is just shooting yourself in the foot.
On October 20 2012 05:25 namori wrote: Wow people shunning artosis' passion and siding with someone like destiny who just want more casual players to watch his stream
Wow youre being dramatic and prejudicial. Use your head. Youre just blindly infatuated with Artosis because of his stature in the community and blindly hating Destiny because of unrelated past incidences. Try actually listening to what he has to say and you'll probably agree with him.
I like Artosis' passion, thats what makes the pro scene so great. People who care about the game can strive to reach new heights without much motivation other than their love for the game. Thats why there's such a separation between the pros and us casuals and thats what makes the major tournaments so impressive. However, Destiny is absolutely right in that going on and on about the "beauty" of this game does nothing to stop the dwindling of the fan base. Catering balance decisions towards the pro community is great for the legitimacy of the game, but ignoring the casual fan base in the process is just shooting yourself in the foot.
He's always pointing out viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers which is the only thing he wants because he lives off of them. Artosis is caring about the game itself.
I honestly don't care about viewer numbers, I want a great competitive game to watch and play
SC2 has already hit its peak and is going to keep declining now. HotS might spark a little more interest but I don't think it will have any staying power unless blizzard fixes like everything.
SC2 tournaments would seem much "newer" if instead of adding 1 - 2 maps competitive maps every year (the map pools have been nearly identical since the influx of Daybreak/Cloud Kingdom/Ohana/Metropolis were added), tournaments need to be swapping out 1 - 2 maps every month or two, or per tournament/season in the case of tournaments like MLG, Dreamhack, IEM, etc. Or as Diamond's post on how to make a tournament map pool says, have a 5 map pool and have one of those maps be a new map, or else new maps will just get vetoed like they've been in NASL or back at IPL4.
Even the LoL people are saying a big reason tournaments aren't dull is because of new champions. New maps that haven't been figured out offer new strategies. Pros will keep saying it's too risky and will ruin tournaments like they've been since Steppes of War but at this point I'm not sure how much we have to lose in terms of viewership numbers.
I guess that's sort of an aside since this doesn't have tons to do with casuals but there's obviously a ton of work to do on tha front as well - Starcraft is a really awesome part of my life but I'm not logged in nearly as much as I was in Brood War. Even though I only played a few games a day I was probably logged in 5 - 6 hours every day in the background just because. Now there's really no reason to unless I know I'm going to make time to ladder.
overall this is a pretty daft argument and there is just 1 factor which is ruling all of this and i cant believe ive not read it yet. BW was one of its kind, this shit was just starting out and gave us innovation. New games arent doing this anymore. LOL and all the other mobas soon became innovative as it was a different way to play the core game (wc3). You could argue sc and wc are the same game except the focus went on units rather than a char/hero . .its the same fucking game but you could choose what you liked best, micro v macro . . simple. A very good contrast of essentially the same game. My point is this however, games come out too thick and fast. The trends will always shift. sc2 seems like its in a slump, its not. i personally think we have been over saturated with it. Soon this will happen to lol and then some other shit will come out further dividing the fanbase. sc2 is not dead and is not going to die, lol is prosperous right now and WILL ALWAYS BE COS ITS FUCKING FREE this is the main factor which is driving the popularity, that and the fact its easy as shit to pick up and play and has an interface with loads of customisation. It specs like wow. 11 million people play that game dont you know?. Serious. im 32 years old, got a decent job and buy everything, i have been playing games sc(mostly) all my life. most of you reading and responding to this will still be at home with ur parents, no job and or below 20 . . YOU dont have a family and havent got much disposable income so dont buy sc2 and its patches which may be £30+ get lol and play it forever for free. Another point is this, i work with 11-16's. i have the xbox360 vs ps3 argument every day. Why do 90% of the people i teach have a ps3. Me and all my mates own them all, but just polay the xbox. Their first point in explaining why the ps3 is better is the online is free and that is their ONLY argument. they then start talkin shit like got uncharted and better graphics but we all know this is whatever speak.
SC2 ive found caters for the older gamer, its harder and requires more time to learn, the people i teach who bought the game dont play it any more but are level 30 [del]40+[/del](EDIT just bashing keys ) on lol (im lvl11 cos id sooner play sc2) Starcraft is a great game, Destiny is right with the casual market, more players. FREE always dominates the polls. the bottom line is sc2 is harder, takes longer and you have to pay for it. lol is easy, free and . . .well free!
On October 20 2012 06:13 StatixEx wrote: overall this is a pretty daft argument and there is just 1 factor which is ruling all of this and i cant believe ive not read it yet. BW was one of its kind, this shit was just starting out and gave us innovation. New games arent doing this anymore. LOL and all the other mobas soon became innovative as it was a different way to play the core game (wc3). You could argue sc and wc are the same game except the focus went on units rather than a char/hero . .its the same fucking game but you could choose what you liked best, micro v macro . . simple. A very good contrast of essentially the same game. My point is this however, games come out too thick and fast. The trends will always shift. sc2 seems like its in a slump, its not. i personally think we have been over saturated with it. Soon this will happen to lol and then some other shit will come out further dividing the fanbase. sc2 is not dead and is not going to die, lol is prosperous right now and WILL ALWAYS BE COS ITS FUCKING FREE this is the main factor which is driving the popularity, that and the fact its easy as shit to pick up and play and has an interface with loads of customisation. It specs like wow. 11 million people play that game dont you know?. Serious. im 32 years old, got a decent job and buy everything, i have been playing games sc(mostly) all my life. most of you reading and responding to this will still be at home with ur parents, no job and or below 20 . . YOU dont have a family and havent got much disposable income so dont buy sc2 and its patches which may be £30+ get lol and play it forever for free. Another point is this, i work with 11-16's. i have the xbox360 vs ps3 argument every day. Why do 90% of the people i teach have a ps3. Me and all my mates own them all, but just polay the xbox. Their first point in explaining why the ps3 is better is the online is free and that is their ONLY argument. they then start talkin shit like got uncharted and better graphics but we all know this is whatever speak.
SC2 ive found caters for the older gamer, its harder and requires more time to learn, the people i teach who bought the game dont play it any more but are level 40+ on lol (im lvl11 cos id sooner play sc2) Starcraft is a great game, Destiny is right with the casual market, more players. FREE always dominates the polls. the bottom line is sc2 is harder, takes longer and you have to pay for it. lol is easy, free and . . .well free!
Many games can co-exist at the same time. Destiny is creating a false scenario where unless SC2 is getting 600,000 viewers and remains equal to LoL it will dwindle and die. If this was the case we would all be seeing only the most popular sport in our respective countries succeed, the rest would fail to get sponsorship money. The reality is there's still businesses who sponsor Bowls tournaments. Fucking. Bowls. What the fuck is it? Who cares. Why aren't they sponsoring Basketball instead? SC2 is settling after a bubble, and luckily the name Starcraft and Blizzard are well respected enough and have enough content lined up to keep it from going anywhere for a long time.
I also disagree with the idea that it's a 95% crossover, but let's fly with that for a second. Destiny is seeing LoL much like record companies have seen the internet since about Napster. If there is a 95% crossover then the huge influx of people LoL is introducing to eSports will intermingle with the SC2 viewers, whether it be at "LANs" (lel) or online. It doesn't have to be portrayed as all one way traffic away from SC2, some of those LoL players will watch and try out Starcraft as well. All these different games help enrich the scene overall, bringing more investment.
SC2 still has tricks up its sleeve. Blizzard have been working on this Blizzard Allstars game for quite a long time now to grab the casual audience, they've delayed it specifically to entice the casual gamer. Although I like playing DotA2 I'm actually interested in it because I'm pretty tired of the sa,e old DotA/HoN formula. Remember StarJeweled? It was a damn fun and what we need more of to keep SC2 fresh. I have to agree with what lalush said somewhere that Blizzard must know a lot of these problems but the team is probably operating almost barebones, once SC2 DotA is complete I think some extra manpower will be free'd up.
HotS Beta is exactly the right time for feedback but I find all the panic kinda funny, I love watching the Destiny fanbase.
On October 20 2012 04:44 Thylacine wrote: He is 100% right but I don't think Artosis will bother trying to believe and understand what he actually says. Imho, Artosis is blinded by the ''beauty of Sc2'' and all that stuff.
How? Because it's the same thing. There are major problems, problems that must be fixed, and we, the people must unite and fix it... We must do everything in our power to make Blizzard wake the fuck up, theoretically we need to construct a 10 ton church bell and ring it so hard that Blizzard's headquarters shake and tremble.
One day...
Never....ever....use Nickelback as an example for anything. I repeat: never. Ever. Unless it is a scornful or mean spirited comparison.
Morrows face made me scared It was like he was imagining himself having to switch to lol or something... First time ever i got scared like crap because all of the points mentioned in the video are the goddamn truth... I hope sc2 is not gonna end like this..
On October 20 2012 04:23 zazen42 wrote: People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
I think you are alone with your opinion. Tons of people are switching to LoL (well not exactly 'switching' but devoting their time). Unfortunately very few people like you are around, which is clearly not enough for starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 and LoL are not that different in esports aspect. Its not like comparing Starcraft 2 to UEFA...
What? You know people still play broodwar even though there's no money involved? People still play wc3 competitively and, there are still tournaments for it.
Just cause there's no enormous e-sports scene doesn't mean the game is dead.
Man I can't wait for the dismal "sky is falling" drama to die off. Giving it a couple weeks because TL loves to think the apocalypse has arrived.
I played WC3 for almost 10 years. Even at the end, there was a small but hardcore group of players. That's all I, personally, need. And I know SC2 will be much larger than that for an extended period of time. I realize my desires don't necessarily coincide with community ambition. I want a hardcore competitive game that challenges me, and I want to be able to play it against 1k-10k people (at least). SC2 provides that, and more.
If casuals want to play a game like LoL - let them. I'll be sniggering and queueing up another ladder game with the hardcore faithful.
I think we need a consolidation post about all of this SC2 is dying crap. Put it all in one place and keep that at a discussion. Seems like there is a new thread popping up every day.
On October 20 2012 06:13 StatixEx wrote: overall this is a pretty daft argument and there is just 1 factor which is ruling all of this and i cant believe ive not read it yet. BW was one of its kind, this shit was just starting out and gave us innovation. New games arent doing this anymore. LOL and all the other mobas soon became innovative as it was a different way to play the core game (wc3). You could argue sc and wc are the same game except the focus went on units rather than a char/hero . .its the same fucking game but you could choose what you liked best, micro v macro . . simple. A very good contrast of essentially the same game. My point is this however, games come out too thick and fast. The trends will always shift. sc2 seems like its in a slump, its not. i personally think we have been over saturated with it. Soon this will happen to lol and then some other shit will come out further dividing the fanbase. sc2 is not dead and is not going to die, lol is prosperous right now and WILL ALWAYS BE COS ITS FUCKING FREE this is the main factor which is driving the popularity, that and the fact its easy as shit to pick up and play and has an interface with loads of customisation. It specs like wow. 11 million people play that game dont you know?. Serious. im 32 years old, got a decent job and buy everything, i have been playing games sc(mostly) all my life. most of you reading and responding to this will still be at home with ur parents, no job and or below 20 . . YOU dont have a family and havent got much disposable income so dont buy sc2 and its patches which may be £30+ get lol and play it forever for free. Another point is this, i work with 11-16's. i have the xbox360 vs ps3 argument every day. Why do 90% of the people i teach have a ps3. Me and all my mates own them all, but just polay the xbox. Their first point in explaining why the ps3 is better is the online is free and that is their ONLY argument. they then start talkin shit like got uncharted and better graphics but we all know this is whatever speak.
SC2 ive found caters for the older gamer, its harder and requires more time to learn, the people i teach who bought the game dont play it any more but are level 40+ on lol (im lvl11 cos id sooner play sc2) Starcraft is a great game, Destiny is right with the casual market, more players. FREE always dominates the polls. the bottom line is sc2 is harder, takes longer and you have to pay for it. lol is easy, free and . . .well free!
currently i am prefering LoL over SC2. Is it because i am cheap? No, i actually bought the game (SC2). Is it because i do not appreciate the strategy, because i am too stupid? I don't think so, and after about 300 games spread over two years i was promoted to masters, and while only playing about one week in 8 or so i can still keep up with top diamond. Am i just not the RTS-kind of guy? No, i played about 10 years on average ~3 hours every day of Settlers 2 Gold edition, Anno 1602, Age of Empires (I + II), pretty much every part of the command and conquer series, BW, WC 3, WLBC 2 + 3 and many more. Even two week in reinstalled Age of Empires 2 TC and started plowing through the campaign once more.
The only RTS that i dislike playing however is SC2. Why? Because it feels like a mistake-game to me. If i win, i can pinpoint the mistake my opponent did, and do not feel very good about the win. If i lose, it usually is just one minor error as well. It is simply frustrating that all my efforts to build up, explore and set up are decided within two second, where i lose my banshee, or my army gets fungaled (and fungaled again and again), or i lose only very few roaches but it is enough that the enemy blink stalkers pile up and snowball into invincibility. Or i miss that one photon cannon, or i did not send one siege tank into battle, or i did not dodge that one storm perfectly, or my vikings were out of position, or my colossus took a weird path. Or i attack into forcefields + colossus and do not kill a single unit while losing my whole army, or suddenly there is a DT in every base and i lose, or there are 3 blue flame hellions roasting every single probe in about two seconds.
There IS too much damage in this game, and it swings too fast in one's favour, thus abruptly pretty much deciding the game right there. How many epic comebacks can you remember? Probably less than 10. In LoL i can be far behind, but given the right team and cooperation we can work as hard as we can and still come back and win. I would even dare and say it is the case for at least 5% of my games in LoL, where i still win after a huge disadvantage early on. One early death may put you severely behind, but it can be fixed. Whereas the loss of one or two stalkers in an early PvP - go figure.
As for those who say that it is a beautiful and complex game, and how hard it is to not make mistakes makes for a great pro scene due to a huge skill ceiling - true. But take this as an example: I once played a game, similar to Super Mario (you basically just run and jump and try to get from save point to save point). On average difficulty it was okay, and a nice game. On harder difficulty the stuns you had to pull were pretty difficult, and it took hours of finger muscle memory training to beat a couple rooms to make it to the next save point. On the hardest difficulty however, there was only one save point in the middle and one at the end (or none at all). When it took me hours to just train for a couple of those hindrances, doing them all without saving and restarting in between? Impossible. And that is how i feel about SC2 right now. It has so many downfalls, it is nearly impossible to play perfect. You just have to play the best you can and bank on your opponent to make a mistake. You do not win by a smart strategy or tactic, but rather by a plain misclick or badly taken fight of your opponent. Maybe he messed up in scouting, maybe he clumped up his high templar. Maybe you missed that little probe sneaking onto your ramp, blocking it with a pylon and a forge. In any case, the game is simply over, you do not get much of a satisfactory win, nor do you get a fair beating, it is just done and leaves you with a bad taste. Go play Age of Empires, where you CAN lose to early cheese, but a war still takes 10+ minutes of constant fighting, small skirmishes, runbys, incredible unit micro, correct counterunits and counterplay and factors in unique civilization attributes. Even if you lose, you usually had an epic fight, and not just 20 seconds.
Thus, in my opinion, SC2 is not fun to play at all. A game can be hard to master but easy to learn (LoL), and can be hard to master and frustrating to play (SC2). That is my reasoning behind the constant decrease in active SC2 players (and following that, decreasing interest in SC2 tournaments/streams)
Brood War wasn't any less frustrating to play, it's just that everyone who didn't play on iccup/pgtour/etc weren't aware how terribly awful they were and just played for fun. Blizzard needs to make the custom games, team games, and the social aspects more accessible and not feel like a cheap aside - I don't think most LoL players play ranked either. And most (casual) people who play LoL also aren't aware of how awful they are because a ridiculous amount believe in ELO Hell so they never play ranked.
That's not to say those things should be focused on at the expense of the 1v1 game, as there's still plenty of things to be worked on there but in terms of the casual player base ideas like "one mistake loses you the game" doesn't even matter until you hit masters.
Why isn't anyone realizing that you have to divide LoL price pools by five in order to be able to compare the value to sc2 price pools? If it is 100k in price pool for sc2 first place, and 1 million for LoL that is 200k per player on the LoL team. If it is 100k and 1 million in pool for the top 3 places in the tournament, then that is an average of 33k per sc2 player and 66k per LoL player. Considering there are also more sc2 tournaments and the LoL pricepools likely being inflated way beyond sustainability right now because they are trying to push the game into the market. Suddenly things don't look half as bad.
can we stop posting destiny interview and showcasts ? i seriously got pissed if he thinks for a gamer 100k or 1 milion is what makes him deciding what game to play . then 1v1 vs 5v5 . 1 milion dolar is actualy 250k , and if team gets 10% and lets say you pay some more for house ul actualy get around 200k . and all the " team play " dosent worth it . when you play with others you are dependent . you cant go play for 10 hours non stop almost never cuz some1 has to smoke in between games and so on . ppl who want to be independent and have the balls will always play 1v1 . ppl who want to get carried by the team or are not confident will most likely play team games as their career .
Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
The question also still remains, just how inflated are LoL viewer numbers? Yeah sure you can say that a single LoL tournament has more viewers but how many LoL tournaments are there? And more importantly how many LoL viewers are willing to SUBSCRIBE to watch? It is easy to get lots of viewers when it is free to watch. How many viewers would sc2 have if there was only one mlg a year and no other tournaments? The only thing that is declining is Destiny's stream viewer numbers and like any good businessman he is doing all of this to get attention.
On October 20 2012 06:55 DrowSwordsman wrote: Brood War wasn't any less frustrating to play, it's just that everyone who didn't play on iccup/pgtour/etc weren't aware how terribly awful they were and just played for fun. Blizzard needs to make the custom games, team games, and the social aspects more accessible and not feel like a cheap aside - I don't think most LoL players play ranked either. And most (casual) people who play LoL also aren't aware of how awful they are because a ridiculous amount believe in ELO Hell so they never play ranked.
That's not to say those things should be focused on at the expense of the 1v1 game, as there's still plenty of things to be worked on there but in terms of the casual player base ideas like "one mistake loses you the game" doesn't even matter until you hit masters.
They didn't make a good map maker program for custom maps like bunker wars and golems ect. They didn't make a good game search engine even though brood war's was kinda shitty you could still easily find a game. They don't let friends play with friends from a different server easily.
They also jerked this game around so hard with balance patches that a lot of people who would play, had to do too much work to simply play the game. Which in turn still causes the pro scene games to be quite boring. Even 2 years later I just don't find the actual gameplay appealing in most matches. There aren't the wow factors there were in brood war because they took them out, so a casual would never get stomped by carries, or walking into hold position lurkers, ect. And now, a casual won't watch the GSL because the matches are boring, meanwhile there isn't a reason to log in to battle.net because they're discouraged by patches, and bullshit, so the casual stops paying attention.
I don't think this thread needs to devolve into a LoL vs SC2 flame fest.
Destiny made really great points in his response.
1: Betamax vs VHS: VHS had a better marketing scheme and reached more people, thus became the standard. He compared this to Artosis' blog where he talks about starcraft being a game that people need to take time with to truly appreciate and understand. LoL doesn't take much time to understand and is fun to play once you have a grasp of the basics and can play a hero or two good enough to enjoy yourself. Starcraft is difficult to play without an understanding of build orders. You could say, "well hey, you can just get one all-in build and win plenty of games", but one all-in build gets you a lot of hate on the ladder. Hate that you don't necessarily get while playing LoL. It's completely understandable why people enjoy playing LoL even without the pay vs free aspect.
2: Sponsorships: Why would someone want to play 15 hours a day to win a 100k tournament, when they could play the same 15 hours to win a 1000k tournament? Why would sponsors sponsor an event with 50k viewers when they could sponsor an event with 650k viewers and a 95% demographic crossover rate? These are also good points. Of course, we could argue until we are blue in the face about the actual demographics of both games, but let's assume that 650k people can buy more shit than 50k people can. If I were a sponsor, I'd kick myself if I didn't try to sponsor a LoL event. Of course, SC2 events get sponsors as well, because 50k is no small number of people. But at the end of the day, more numbers is more potential customers. And SC2 doesn't have the numbers right now.
3: Getting people back to SC2: I haven't played SC2 in months now. I have pretty bad ladder anxiety and I'm too lazy to practice builds against the AI, and there are other games to play. I loved playing hero attack, and tower defense, and all the other customs though. The problem was, I never had people to talk to in between games. The graveyard that is B.net 2.0 is slowly killing SC2. There are other games that do the social aspect better. I myself play mostly single player games, so I couldn't really name any off the top of my head, but I assume LoL does it just by having a team aspect. I think that if Blizzard implemented the good old chat channels of Brood War, gave us replays we could watch with friends, and just spent more time focusing on the casual player of SC2, we'd have more viewers, more sponsors, more money, and more fun for everybody.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
Well, it's what Destiny wants. But then again he seems to be in it mainly for the money which is probably the underlying catalyst for him bringing this up. His only source of income is from the stream, so naturally he wants the casuals to flock to it to increase his profit. Who can blame him, right? He's streaming for a living seeing as he has no sponsors nor is he winning tournaments.
I think Destiny's view isn't to balance 1v1 for casual players, it's to balance 1v1 for pro/top level and to have pretty much UMS for the casual players. Right now the Arcade is terrible, and he wants to pretty much make it like it was on BW. In this way, Blizzard doesn't have to mess up the 1v1 at the top level and can still have the casual players' engagement with SC2.
For the most part, I kind of agree with him minus the prize pool thing (1m / 5 = 200k each). Some SC2 players can easily make more than that through prize money. Hopefully the SC2 scene will become somewhat big in Korea (as LoL is being the most dominant game there) if HotS is good...
the problem is, starcraft is too much skillbased and too less strategy based.
Most of the units are fast cheap and do a lot of dmg but die really fast, that makes micro in battle so much more important. High apm and good unitcontrol benefits from this facts, strategy knowledge and smartness don t.
This makes it pretty entertaining to watch because its like a soccerplayer outplaying 2-3 enemies and make a goal....its fast, its actionpacked its entertaining to watch.
But it doen t even matter how entertaining it is, someone who has not fun at playing sc2 will rarely watch a lot of tornaments...its more important to have a lot of casual players play the game, they will then automaticly watch tornaments, just like destiny says.
i was playing mid to high mastersleage and i d say my ability to micro and makro are limited (can t get more then 150 apm overall)....because .... well i think i m allready too old for this, this 15 year old guys have a huge advantage over me in this case.
I realised this, when i started to play Tiberium wars (command and conquer) again, its not as competetiv and not as deep as sc2 is, but its just so much more fun, and some of my friends who started to play TW again agree....TW was allways more fun then sc2 and will allways be more fun.....the only reason we switched to sc2 was because there are so less players in TW its difficult to get good games and because sc2 was a new game, so we talked ourselfs into it.
As well i think balance is broken on different skill levels and only balanced on the pro level....that is anyoing too and causes many players to stop playing sc2
On October 20 2012 07:22 hai2u wrote: its too late, even if Blizzard comes up with the greatest Bnet ever in HOTS, most of the casuals have already left, they're not coming back.
Nah, the casual players who have quit will come back in droves to play through the campaign, and will probably give the multiplayer side a shot to see how they feel about it. If there's something great in place for them when they do that, it'll be possible to get them to stick around.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
Well, it's what Destiny wants. But then again he seems to be in it mainly for the money which is probably the underlying catalyst for him bringing this up. His only source of income is from the stream, so naturally he wants the casuals to flock to it to increase his profit. Who can blame him, right? He's streaming for a living seeing as he has no sponsors nor is he winning tournaments.
In a lot of ways, though, his self-interest lines up with all of our interests as people who are still playing (or at least watching) the game. More people more engaged means more viewers for him, a bigger community, more people playing the game, better support for better-produced professional content, shorter queue times in game, you name it, it all gets better.
On October 20 2012 04:37 rift wrote: I'd like the community to be smaller and more mature. Fewer tournaments would be nice as well.
Then all the proffessionals that were used to get somewhat big salaries are gonna leave and play LoL or do other stuff, and all the tournaments are gonna be with no prizes, and won by people who are now in platinium league. :/
I really agree with destiny regarding how little the proffesional players care about the casual players, even though they are what supports their income. Its like farming wheat without looking at your fields a single time during the entire year and then harvesting and hoping you get lucky with the weather.
On October 20 2012 04:35 jj33 wrote: Not trying to be argumentative, but I am not clear on this.
I'm assuming most casual gamers do not watch sc2 tournaments much if at all. So how does making the game more "casual friendly" help?
I remember in the bw days, (when I was still playing) most people that played BGH etc did not follow the pro scene anyways.
I just think games like LoL is more appealing to the masses. I mean sc1/bw wasn't a game that had mass appeal too.
Once again not trying to disagree or be argumentative.
I don't think LoL is more appealing. The only reason why LoL has 500k viewers on a tourny is because more players play that game casually. Take note of how many SC2 players quit because of various reasons (mainly being ladder anxiety). It's not a casual game. The custom games suck in SC2, thus making it not a fund game to play casually. LoL is for the casual gamer. There is a pro scene but the game was always meant to be for casual players. Being free in the first place. Targeting the masses unlike SC2 with the larger learning curve targeted more hardcore players.
Think of how many of your RL friends own sc2? I think 100% of my friends who actually play computer games... also own SC2. Currently only I'm left playing SC2 because I was the only one that moved from casual to competitive. I don't get what is so hard to understand from blizzard that they have to cater to the masses. Not by balancing the game to it's easier at the bronze league but improving the game that people have been complaining to all along. Things like the user interface, chat channels, name changes, and custom games.
SC2 just isn't for the casual gamer so it will become less and less popular.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
This is what I believe will happen too. The thing is blizzard moves so slow that it will just take forever for them to do it.
There's something to this. Blizzard's approach has been "easy to learn, difficult to master,' but it seems their primary focus has been to try their level best to get all casuals to play ranked ladder 1v1. Even if you look at their hiding global ranking, hiding losses (fortunately they're reverting the losses). It's all about getting casuals to play ranked 1v1 which is probably the most hardcore competitive game type you can have. (How many 'dealing with ladder stress' threads have you seen?)
On TL it probably felt like there's an over representation of ladder gamers, but I rather suspect these were the rare birds in SCBW. Of all my real life friends that I've ever played with in SCBW, I am the only one that has ever played online against strangers never mind 1v1 ranked games. And I am the only one that will bother practicing openings and specific maneuvers and builds over and over again.
All my other friends just want to play a fun comp stomp or play 2v2v2's with each other or play some fun custom map. And so that's definitely where Battlenet 0.2 has failed. Let the ladder be what the ladder is and don't hinder crazy hard skills to master for fear of losing the casual. They probably won't naturally gravitate to ladder games anyways. That's certainly not what is going to draw them in.
If at the beginning SC2 hadn't felt like a pristine graveyard with a terrible custom game lobby that felt like no-one was on, no chat channels (and even now chat channels are compatmentalized enough so as to not exist unless you seek them out) and no shared-replays, we could hold on to casuals. But that's where Blizzard should've thrown their energy if they wanted to keep casuals. Not this huge focus on getting everyone laddering and ignoring micro tricks. Casuals will ladder if they like the game enough, but 1v1 is not for everyone and I don't think it's as big a selling point as we competitive people would like to think.
In addition, like any AAA gaming company, they really need to re-evaluate their pricing for a game that's been out for a year. Especially if you're planning on releasing sequels, that price needs to be dropping pretty quickly after the first year so the game spread even further. And they should've had a one click button to stream tournaments like LoL does if they want to open the casuals minds to the competitive scene. (Made a thread about this like a year ago.) Yeah Blizzard is finally promoting it with a text link, but it's still inferior to how LoL promotes their tournaments.
edit tldr In short, Battlenet 0.2 feels like it was built around 1v1 ladder play with custom games/ the social side tacked on. I don't mind if the game itself is built around 1v1 ladder play. In fact for it to be a competitive game, I think it must. But in retrospect Battlenet ought not to have been built around 1v1 ladder play.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
Well, it's what Destiny wants. But then again he seems to be in it mainly for the money which is probably the underlying catalyst for him bringing this up. His only source of income is from the stream, so naturally he wants the casuals to flock to it to increase his profit. Who can blame him, right? He's streaming for a living seeing as he has no sponsors nor is he winning tournaments.
In a lot of ways, though, his self-interest lines up with all of our interests as people who are still playing (or at least watching) the game. More people more engaged means more viewers for him, a bigger community, more people playing the game, better support for better-produced professional content, shorter queue times in game, you name it, it all gets better.
That's not entirely true. The premise was that Blizzard would dumb the game itself down for all that to happen, let's say to a... LoL state. That's not something i'd want, ever.
I don't really like some of Destiny's personality, but i have to agree with all his points. SC2 is indeed like a stressfull quiet graveyard. Team play is severely underdeveloped. The whole B.net system feels like a prison. There's little freedom to customize, to create a game, give it a name, go to a general chat where everyone is promoting their recently created game, you need to play the games on the first page (everyone does it, so a vicious cycle is made), and so on. I haven't played SC2 for some time now, because i got too bored of 1v1, team games aren't customizable enough and end up feeling the same thing over and over, and custom maps are always the same. Some friends that played it casually also stopped, a few of them just play LoL because it's less stressfull and you don't need rigid build orders for 5 minutes (only to still lose to some random cheese).
It's pretty obvious the guys working at SC2 right now, aren't either putting enough effort or simply lack the necessary quality to make a good game. Even the music is shitty for crying out loud. Blizzard doesn't really seem what it used to be.
On October 20 2012 07:01 VanGarde wrote: Why isn't anyone realizing that you have to divide LoL price pools by five in order to be able to compare the value to sc2 price pools? If it is 100k in price pool for sc2 first place, and 1 million for LoL that is 200k per player on the LoL team. If it is 100k and 1 million in pool for the top 3 places in the tournament, then that is an average of 33k per sc2 player and 66k per LoL player. Considering there are also more sc2 tournaments and the LoL pricepools likely being inflated way beyond sustainability right now because they are trying to push the game into the market. Suddenly things don't look half as bad.
If you want to actually compare prize pools why would you divide by 5?
Why not compare the TOTAL prize pools for ALL players?
I.E 2012 LoL World Championships -> $2 million total prize pool 2012 Battle.net World Championship -> $250,000 total prize pool
How can anyone think that Destiny wants one versus one to be dumbed down for casuals? Please stop posting about one versus one... No one is debating that the game's faults are from one versus one. The game's faults are mostly because the viewership is decreasing because less and less people care about Starcraft2 as a whole. The game overall is not casual friendly.
How are big tournaments going to get a prize pool when sponsors pull their money and go to different games? How are teams going to send players anywhere when sponsors are non-existent? Sponsors would leave because the viewers will no longer be there to purchase stuff from them. What happens when sponsors don't make money? They leave. The logic is so simple, yet so many people miss the point.
Before anyone says "this is not how you should be going about changing the game", wrong! This is exactly what needs to happen. Like the old saying "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" (Meaning the loudest voices are likely to get the most attention). And it does work as seen in everything. Blizzard is changing their interface for Starcraft2, Blizzard is changing everything about Diablo3, Blizzard is making Starcraft2 more casual friendly, and so much more cool stuff is happening because of these voices! And, it is all thanks to people like Destiny and Artosis, and quite possibly some of you had posts that were heard by Blizzard.
I tried playing LoL at one point because it was free and found it incredibly boring, one-dimensional, and repetitive. Even if Blizzard fails to overhaul Bnet's UI (and a rehaul is desparately needed as many pointed out -- we need LAN, we need better custom game options, etc) I don't think LoL will steal all of SC2's popularity simply because it's not the same kind of game.
LoL is for people who like MMOs, building characters, etc. SC2 is military strategy game for players who appreciate strategic depth. Totally different markets and I can tell you that many of the strategy-oriented players like me will not ever be playing LoL with the same gusto we play SC2. It's that lack of depth that makes LoL more viewer and casual friendly. They each have their niche.
On October 20 2012 04:23 zazen42 wrote: People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
I really cannot agree with you here. you enjoy games with "strategic depth"? to be honest LoL has a lot of strategy. I think what you like is more mechanical complexity and execution of that strategy using superior ability. LoL is simple to pick up and play, yes, but to coordinate a team of 5 with 100 champions to choose from, different skill builds and item builds, different laning setups, different approaches to ganks and teamfights, and to work out the best composition and best approach to winning is incredibly deep strategically.
tl:dr, yes lol is easy to learn since u have 1 hero to control, but it is a strategically deep game
On October 20 2012 08:07 zazen42 wrote: I tried playing LoL at one point because it was free and found it incredibly boring, one-dimensional, and repetitive. Even if Blizzard fails to overhaul Bnet's UI (and a rehaul is desparately needed as many pointed out -- we need LAN, we need better custom game options, etc) I don't think LoL will steal all of SC2's popularity simply because it's not the same kind of game.
LoL is for people who like MMOs, building characters, etc. SC2 is military strategy game for players who appreciate strategic depth. Totally different markets and I can tell you that many of the strategy-oriented players like me will not ever be playing LoL with the same gusto we play SC2. It's that lack of depth that makes LoL more viewer and casual friendly. They each have their niche.
it took me about 25-30 full games of LoL to get into it and to even BEGIN to develop strategy. Have you played lol with friends on voice chat? It is incredibly fun and we are constantly coordinating, calling out missing opponents, calling for ganks and plays to stop the opposition, saving teammates or helping teammates out of sticky situations etc. It's NOT for people that like MMOs. you simply haven't seen the strategical aspects of LoL and you have for starcraft, therefore you assume there's no strategic depth.
I question if people who post comments ever even played LoL. The chat system is just the same in LoL, if anything it is worse. The custom game system in LoL is way worse too, so great you can create a customized name for your game? Joining a custom game involves scrolling through an infinite list of games with terrible names or descriptions, trying to figure out which is which, only to join and realize when the lobby is full that the host went afk 10 minutes ago and isn't coming back.
The only way that LoL is "better" at focusing the casual market is because it is way way easier. The very thing people seem to be united in NOT wanting starcraft 2 to be. If anything the major complaint of most sc2 fans and players is that Blizzard is making the game too easy. If you want sc2 to compete with LoL on it's terms you need to severely dumb the game down. They are different game, they cater to different fans and they should. Having the widest most casual market does in no way ensure e-sports success. All of these discussions would be fine if people did not make it out to be about e-sports. If you are just asking, how can sc2 get more casual players? Then that is one thing, but getting more casual players will not make a good e-sports game. If that were the case then many games would had been successful e-sports games before sc2.
The only thing you need to know to end all of these arguments about popularity and casual market is that WoW arena FAILED terribly as an e-sport. If a game with 9-10 million players can't run a successful e-sports scene that is the nail in the coffin for the argument that numbers = success. The key to a successful e-sport is without a doubt it's ability to attract viewers that don't play the game. Regular sports would never have gotten anywhere if you had to play hockey to enjoy watching it. This is the reason sc2 has grown so big, because there are so many people who watch it WITHOUT playing it. That is the key to success and if you want to ensure e-sports success you should not worry too much about which game has the most players but by how we can make the game even more viewable for non players. LoL has a lot of players, most of LoL's viewer base is also the people who play the game. That is a recipe for an e-sports scene that can not survive the eventual decline in player base.
Because ALL games will drop in player base. Really did we honestly expect sc2 player base to just keep rising? Or to stay stable? Ofcourse not, you will have a surge in players when a game is new, especially in casual players. Then as time goes on the less competitive players will drop off and switch to whatever is new, then the player base will plateau again when you only have the players who enjoy the game long term left. This is true for sc2 and for LoL. Losing players is natural, it is only a problem if you lose the vast majority of players.
The problem of e-sports has always been that it was never enjoyable to those who did not play the games, this is why there never was a real e-sport before sc2 in the west. Out of all of the people I know personally who got sc2 when it first came out, most of them don't play anymore because most of them are not competitive players. Most of those people also played LoL for a while. They got sc2 for the campaign, for ums and for team games and eventually they got tired of it. They got tired of LoL too obviously. But then if 70% of the people I know who first played sc2 stopped playing it, isn't that terrible? Well, you have to contrast that with the fact that out of those people 90% watch sc2 e-sports regularly. All of the people I know who stopped playing over a year ago subscribe to every gsl season.
On October 20 2012 08:00 Mouzone wrote: That's not entirely true. The premise was that Blizzard would dumb the game itself down for all that to happen, let's say to a... LoL state. That's not something i'd want, ever.
Actually, the premise was that they'd use the custom game and UMS system to make the game more friendly to casuals. Remember, Brood War is what Destiny pointed to as an example of how to do this better, and you can't say that that game was "dumbed down" in relation to SC2.
Dota kicked wc3 ass, it's just that SC2 is in a smaller genre and B2P x F2P, the problem is more related to SC2 being a RTS game than SC2 being a "bad" game.
anyway, there is a lack of competition in the RTS genre, so Blizzard don't need to work hard on SC2 to dominate. all the others RTS games are in far deeper shit than SC2.
On October 20 2012 08:00 Mouzone wrote: That's not entirely true. The premise was that Blizzard would dumb the game itself down for all that to happen, let's say to a... LoL state. That's not something i'd want, ever.
Actually, the premise was that they'd use the custom game and UMS system to make the game more friendly to casuals. Remember, Brood War is what Destiny pointed to as an example of how to do this better, and you can't say that that game was "dumbed down" in relation to SC2.
That is all fine but no one has ever actually articulated any evidence for why that would translate into more e-sports fans and viewers. That just means more ums players, why is it so self evident to people that someone who plays ums in sc2 follows the gsl? There is no evidence of that at all.
On October 20 2012 08:13 VanGarde wrote: The key to a successful e-sport is without a doubt it's ability to attract viewers that don't play the game.
Wrong. The key to a successful e-sport is its ability to attract viewers period. There are multiple ways of attracting viewers. League does it by having a huge player base first and foremost but League also does many other things. For example, SPECTATOR mode, the ability to jump into any game as it is going on and watch it live.
Blizzard does not have to do exactly what RIOT is doing with league. They can attack it from another angle. The problem is that they have no strategy for growing the viewer base.
On October 20 2012 08:13 VanGarde wrote: The key to a successful e-sport is without a doubt it's ability to attract viewers that don't play the game.
Wrong. The key to a successful e-sport is its ability to attract viewers period. There are multiple ways of attracting viewers. League does it by having a huge player base first and foremost but League also does many other things. For example, SPECTATOR mode, the ability to jump into any game as it is going on and watch it live.
Blizzard does not have to do exactly what RIOT is doing with league. They can attack it from another angle. The problem is that they have no strategy for growing the viewer base.
No the reason I say that you need to attract viewers that don't play is because every game inevitably loses players. I don't understand how people have missed out on the past 10 years of attempted e-sports history. This has been the problem with EVERY game, only people who play the game and really understand it enjoy watching it and then when a new game in that genre comes out the players move on.
People kept watching bw even when new rts games came out because there were a lot of people who enjoyed it as a spectator sport. If a game builds its entire viewer base on active players watching then that e-sport inevitably dies because the player base will shrink. You can't maintain a player base and keep growing it indefinitely. You will have too small of a market eventually to run an e-sport, you need people to watch without playing.
What people do not seem to be considering is that just because people are playing the game dose not mean they are going to watch tournaments and streams. In fact there is a chance that they will just play the game more and watch less.
However I will say that bliz could and should do a better job of marketing sc2 esports with an in game stream client for tournaments. Also I would definitely agree that sc2 as a whole would benefit from a big general chat channel on the front page of the menu screen because as newbies get into the game and start reading the chat and see a bunch of people talking about TL or some tournament that is going on they will be more likly to check it out especially since they probably would have never even heard about it before that or just been sceptical about e-sports and now that they can see a bunch off people are enjoying it they will feel more comfortable also they will have someone to talk to about it instead off just sitting alone in their room.
the interest in sc2 is declining is because sc2's 1v1 isn't nearly as interesting as brood war's. ZvP do I need to say more?
And the fact that the arcade and the map editor (+ support for map makers and the ease to release new maps and get them well known) are incredibly shitty.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
Well, it's what Destiny wants. But then again he seems to be in it mainly for the money which is probably the underlying catalyst for him bringing this up. His only source of income is from the stream, so naturally he wants the casuals to flock to it to increase his profit. Who can blame him, right? He's streaming for a living seeing as he has no sponsors nor is he winning tournaments.
lol his motivations doesn't matter, his points were valid
On October 20 2012 08:19 VanGarde wrote: That is all fine but no one has ever actually articulated any evidence for why that would translate into more e-sports fans and viewers. That just means more ums players, why is it so self evident to people that someone who plays ums in sc2 follows the gsl? There is no evidence of that at all.
Well UMS games are only half of what I was talking about. A better custom game system would also cover games of straight-up SC2 but with different, possibly more casual-friendly maps (like for example a BGH style map) or let people browse custom games in a way that would let them pick which one they wanted to join. The auto-joining a random custom game feature is part of what Destiny was complaining about.
As for UMS games, they do two things that help the SC2 community in a secondary way -- they can potentially sell more SC2 licenses (as DOTA sold WC3 licenses) and they can get eyes on the SC2 splash screens to help direct people to what's going on in the pro community. More SC2 licenses means a better business case for team and event sponsors, and more eyes on the splash screens potentially might mean more viewers for the events.
On October 20 2012 05:30 NexRex wrote: The only point I have to somewhat challenge is the "100k" vs "1mil." The prize is divided five ways, so it'd be $200k per person. However, this brings another point: there should be less tournaments so that more money could go to those fewer tournaments. Just a thought.
I really like Destiny's thoughts here, though. He usually has well thought out arguments. A lot this week.
why would you challenge that, I don't get this mentality, you get 5 people winning 200k each... it's still a FUCKTON more than only 1 player winning 100k
On October 20 2012 08:19 VanGarde wrote: That is all fine but no one has ever actually articulated any evidence for why that would translate into more e-sports fans and viewers. That just means more ums players, why is it so self evident to people that someone who plays ums in sc2 follows the gsl? There is no evidence of that at all.
Well UMS games are only half of what I was talking about. A better custom game system would also cover games of straight-up SC2 but with different, possibly more casual-friendly maps (like for example a BGH style map) or let people browse custom games in a way that would let them pick which one they wanted to join. The auto-joining a random custom game feature is part of what Destiny was complaining about.
As for UMS games, they do two things that help the SC2 community in a secondary way -- they can potentially sell more SC2 licenses (as DOTA sold WC3 licenses) and they can get eyes on the SC2 splash screens to help direct people to what's going on in the pro community. More SC2 licenses means a better business case for team and event sponsors, and more eyes on the splash screens potentially might mean more viewers for the events.
I repeat, getting more players is not the best way to secure e-sports success. Once again look at World of Warcraft, the game should focus on improving the viewer experience first.
On October 20 2012 08:07 zazen42 wrote: I tried playing LoL at one point because it was free and found it incredibly boring, one-dimensional, and repetitive. Even if Blizzard fails to overhaul Bnet's UI (and a rehaul is desparately needed as many pointed out -- we need LAN, we need better custom game options, etc) I don't think LoL will steal all of SC2's popularity simply because it's not the same kind of game.
LoL is for people who like MMOs, building characters, etc. SC2 is military strategy game for players who appreciate strategic depth. Totally different markets and I can tell you that many of the strategy-oriented players like me will not ever be playing LoL with the same gusto we play SC2. It's that lack of depth that makes LoL more viewer and casual friendly. They each have their niche.
There's nothing to steal. LoL is more popular than SC2 already, and has been for months, you just don't realize it because you're completely focused on SC2 and don't catch anything else that's going on regarding esports, of which this "community" is the self-proclaimed savior despite doing nothing that's really helping, except for ridiculously stupid threads on TL every fucking day.
On October 20 2012 08:45 VanGarde wrote: I repeat, getting more players is not the best way to secure e-sports success. Once again look at World of Warcraft, the game should focus on improving the viewer experience first.
Edit: Sure, viewer experience is an important component, but it's only one piece. As for which is more important, well, LoL's high stream numbers speak to putting streams and information about tournaments in the game interface having a good effect on event numbers, if you have the player volume to see that stuff.
On October 20 2012 08:45 VanGarde wrote: I repeat, getting more players is not the best way to secure e-sports success. Once again look at World of Warcraft, the game should focus on improving the viewer experience first.
You can repeat it all you want, but since I pointed out the exact mechanism by which more players can lead to more viewers (advertisements or video streams on the splash screen), and since this has worked to add hugely to LoL stream numbers, I'd say you're flat-out wrong. Sorry.
But the LoL stream numbers are precisely that players playing the game. Most players are NOT stable customers they are transitional customers who come to a game when it is hyped and then disappear in three months. How can people be arguing that this is happening to sc2 right now while simultaneously being ignorant to the same process in other games?
sc2 is a niche game, throwing bigger prize pool at it is not going to attract more viewers and gamers. It may create incentives for pro players, but sadly they are simply not important when it comes to popularities.
sc2 is doing ridiculously well given its genre and the ratio of viewers to players, but that is as good as it will be. RTS just isn't the powerhouse type of game that can attract casual gamers of today, only through custom maps will that be possible.
But gl trying to convince people to pay $60 to play custom maps, when there are so many game engines out there that developers can make their games and advertise as free
On October 20 2012 08:45 VanGarde wrote: I repeat, getting more players is not the best way to secure e-sports success. Once again look at World of Warcraft, the game should focus on improving the viewer experience first.
You can repeat it all you want, but since I pointed out the exact mechanism by which more players can lead to more viewers (advertisements or video streams on the splash screen), and since this has worked to add hugely to LoL stream numbers, I'd say you're flat-out wrong. Sorry.
But the LoL stream numbers are precisely that players playing the game. Most players are NOT stable customers they are transitional customers who come to a game when it is hyped and then disappear in three months. How can people be arguing that this is happening to sc2 right now while simultaneously being ignorant to the same process in other games?
I edited my comment after posting because I don't disagree with your feelings about improving the viewer experience. My point is that it all helps and probably has the best effect if it's all done together.
Destiny is right, just look on the twitch.tv home page LoL always has three times more viewers then SC2. Those players make more from streaming and tournaments by viewers alone.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
Most new games now a days have a surge of casual players at the moment of release and slowly dies down. SC2 is no exception. The only game that I knew of that had a steady increase in players was Dota 1.
I think sc2 itself is just not appealing to casual players. 1v1 ladder is stressful. LoL on the other hand really appeals to casual players. Its a team game so people don't feel as bad when they lose.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
The problem with your argument is that sports (e- or otherwise) don't get popular in a vacuum. Sports become spectator sports when they're commonly played by amateurs. Yes, once they achieve a certain media scale, they can take off in a way that's far out of proportion to their amateur player base, but for smaller sports, people watch them mainly when they play them, or have at least tried to play them in the past.
Jai-alai and polo are both very exciting sports to watch, but few people do because they're both not very common for amateurs and they haven't reached the scale necessary to take on a life of their own. That will only happen when there's enough money in broadcasting a sport to inspire major media companies to fight over the contracts to show the games.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
I would say team games suck because random teams can be matched up with arranged. The problem with team games is the stagnant map pool that has barely change since season 1 and almost all the maps the team equivalent of stepes of war
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote: .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
This would be our fundamental difference in opinion then.
I do agree with you though that a significant number of a sport's viewers should come from people who don't play the sport at all. This, however, doesn't mean that you don't need a lot of casual players as well.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
The problem with your argument is that sports (e- or otherwise) don't get popular in a vacuum. Sports become spectator sports when they're commonly played by amateurs. Yes, once they achieve a certain media scale, they can take off in a way that's far out of proportion to their amateur player base, but for smaller sports, people watch them mainly when they play them, or have at least tried to play them in the past.
Jai-alai and polo are both very exciting sports to watch, but few people do because they're both not very common for amateurs and they haven't reached the scale necessary to take on a life of their own. That will only happen when there's enough money in broadcasting a sport to inspire major media companies to fight over the contracts to show the games.
Perhaps but that is more of an argument that ALL e-sport will inevitably be impossible because of how games work and because of how limited games lifespans are. No amount of artificial life support will keep LoL OR sc2 floating with a massive amateur playerbase for long enough. You might very well be right, but if you are right you are just proving that there will never ever be an e-sports scene, that will always only be short bubbles.
On October 20 2012 09:18 VanGarde wrote: Perhaps but that is more of an argument that ALL e-sport will inevitably be impossible because of how games work and because of how limited games lifespans are. No amount of artificial life support will keep LoL OR sc2 floating with a massive amateur playerbase for long enough. You might very well be right, but if you are right you are just proving that there will never ever be an e-sports scene, that will always only be short bubbles.
If you're saying that it's the fate of e-sports to continually move from game to game, I agree. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, though, it just means that the people positioned to do the best with it will be those who are willing to adapt to frequent change. It will also limit long-term audience numbers to the extent that most of the audience likes watching this type of game but not that one.
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
WoW had other major problems. First and foremost is that it was never designed to be a sport. I would argue that the fact that WoW had an e-sport at all was due to the fact that there was a lot of players.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote: .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
This would be our fundamental difference in opinion then.
I do agree with you though that a significant number of a sport's viewers should come from people who don't play the sport at all. This, however, doesn't mean that you don't need a lot of casual players as well.
I don't disagree with that either, I just think that this massive overreaction seems to be based on overvaluing the influence of having more casual players.
Sc2 is doing just fine, it might have plateaued but that was obvious from the start that eventually that would happen. LoL is seeing a surge but that is because LoL atm is at the same place where sc2 was a year ago, it is in a growing phase and thus getting a lot of momentum, investing and positive attention.
I think it is surreal that people first though that sc2 would grow indefinitely and now when it plateaus they think the game is dying, yet at the same time they think that now LoL will grow indefinitely. There is some fantastic partitioning of mental faculties going on there.
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
WoW had other major problems. First and foremost is that it was never designed to be a sport. I would argue that the fact that WoW had an e-sport at all was due to the fact that there was a lot of players.
Those numbers are bit hard to gauge to be honest. I can only assume that a montly active user is anyone who is logged in on any given month. Unless it is even active accounts. But I am one of those 32 million "active" players then. Despite the fact that I at best play one-two games over the course of a month. Then I might not play for 5 months.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
The problem with your argument is that sports (e- or otherwise) don't get popular in a vacuum. Sports become spectator sports when they're commonly played by amateurs. Yes, once they achieve a certain media scale, they can take off in a way that's far out of proportion to their amateur player base, but for smaller sports, people watch them mainly when they play them, or have at least tried to play them in the past.
Jai-alai and polo are both very exciting sports to watch, but few people do because they're both not very common for amateurs and they haven't reached the scale necessary to take on a life of their own. That will only happen when there's enough money in broadcasting a sport to inspire major media companies to fight over the contracts to show the games.
Perhaps but that is more of an argument that ALL e-sport will inevitably be impossible because of how games work and because of how limited games lifespans are. No amount of artificial life support will keep LoL OR sc2 floating with a massive amateur playerbase for long enough. You might very well be right, but if you are right you are just proving that there will never ever be an e-sports scene, that will always only be short bubbles.
BW sustained itself in Korea for 10 years. LoL is bigger than BW ever was.
probably alot less ppl actually plays LoL than the 32m advertise. I have 4 accounts on LoL that I log in at least once a month, i'm sure many are in the same boat.
being a free game and all, doesn't take much to make an account
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
The problem with your argument is that sports (e- or otherwise) don't get popular in a vacuum. Sports become spectator sports when they're commonly played by amateurs. Yes, once they achieve a certain media scale, they can take off in a way that's far out of proportion to their amateur player base, but for smaller sports, people watch them mainly when they play them, or have at least tried to play them in the past.
Jai-alai and polo are both very exciting sports to watch, but few people do because they're both not very common for amateurs and they haven't reached the scale necessary to take on a life of their own. That will only happen when there's enough money in broadcasting a sport to inspire major media companies to fight over the contracts to show the games.
Perhaps but that is more of an argument that ALL e-sport will inevitably be impossible because of how games work and because of how limited games lifespans are. No amount of artificial life support will keep LoL OR sc2 floating with a massive amateur playerbase for long enough. You might very well be right, but if you are right you are just proving that there will never ever be an e-sports scene, that will always only be short bubbles.
BW sustained itself in Korea for 10 years. LoL is bigger than BW ever was.
Yes, but I am saying that if you look at bw sales you could probably see a plateau and a decline there too. In retrospect we know that the game did not die because of that. But if you took the mentality that is going on here right now and applied it in the days when bnet basically became empty and you had to play on iccup etc to see other players people would had declared the death of bw too.
Also I have no problem with LoL being huge in Korea because I am not under the misconception that one of LoL or sc2 has to die for the other to live.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2.
AND poured in money for tournaments to happen...
why so ignorant.
SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread.
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2.
AND poured in money for tournaments to happen...
why so ignorant.
SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread.
History lessons now.
Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope.
Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments.
Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2."
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
WoW had other major problems. First and foremost is that it was never designed to be a sport. I would argue that the fact that WoW had an e-sport at all was due to the fact that there was a lot of players.
Those numbers are bit hard to gauge to be honest. I can only assume that a montly active user is anyone who is logged in on any given month. Unless it is even active accounts. But I am one of those 32 million "active" players then. Despite the fact that I at best play one-two games over the course of a month. Then I might not play for 5 months.
Destiny is right, as someone who doesn't play sc2 often at all anymore, and was really uninterested on seeing the HotS beta(actually considering not buying the game), everything he said pretty much lines up to why i stopped playing... I can especially relate to the feeling of logging on to bnet2.0 and it feeling like a graveyard.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2.
AND poured in money for tournaments to happen...
why so ignorant.
SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread.
History lessons now.
Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope.
Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments.
Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2."
Don't make arguments w/o any research.
Blizzard told the press the tournaments were illegal because they were. They sued MBC because they broke copyright law. Blizzard was in the right.
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
WoW had other major problems. First and foremost is that it was never designed to be a sport. I would argue that the fact that WoW had an e-sport at all was due to the fact that there was a lot of players.
Those numbers are bit hard to gauge to be honest. I can only assume that a montly active user is anyone who is logged in on any given month. Unless it is even active accounts. But I am one of those 32 million "active" players then. Despite the fact that I at best play one-two games over the course of a month. Then I might not play for 5 months.
3 million average concurrent users. That's far above even the peak of WoW (~ 2 mill based on what I can tell).
So 3 million then instead of 32. So as I was saying, the numbers are hard to gauge, that sounds way more reasonable. But then again, I don't understand why people are so god damn terrified over this. Good for LoL that it is doing so well, it is a good game. We need more of those.
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2.
AND poured in money for tournaments to happen...
why so ignorant.
SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread.
History lessons now.
Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope.
Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments.
Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2."
Don't make arguments w/o any research.
They WERE holding illegal tournaments. Kespa could have just paid the god damn money but as I said this is a topic for another thread. The point is that in the west, players switched to sc2 without any need for evil blizzard to corrupt them. Day9 started changing his daily to sc2 content pretty early on. No one forced all of that to happen it is natural, I realize people who did not want to see that happen are still emotional about it but bw would had killed sc2 if people had not switched to it. The market rules.
On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote: [quote] But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2.
AND poured in money for tournaments to happen...
why so ignorant.
SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread.
History lessons now.
Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope.
Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments.
Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2."
Don't make arguments w/o any research.
Blizzard told the press the tournaments were illegal because they were. They sued MBC because they broke copyright law. Blizzard was in the right.
If Blizzard were in the right, the wouldn't have abandoned their lawsuit with MBC.
The judge pretty much asked Blizzard about their definition of copyright infringement.
And then after some time Blizzard completely backed out because Kespa's argument was that the game is suppose to be a tool to entertain the world. While Blizzard only wanted monopoly to scene. This is why SC2 is in this such of a hellhole in the first place. Everyone relied on Blizzard. But they failed the expectation, nothing could have been done anymore.
If you want to call a game a 'sport', actually follow that model.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2.
AND poured in money for tournaments to happen...
why so ignorant.
SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread.
History lessons now.
Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope.
Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments.
Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2."
Don't make arguments w/o any research.
Blizzard told the press the tournaments were illegal because they were. They sued MBC because they broke copyright law. Blizzard was in the right.
If Blizzard were in the right, the wouldn't have abandoned their lawsuit with MBC.
The judge pretty much asked Blizzard about their definition of copyright infringement.
And then after some time Blizzard completely backed out because Kespa's argument was that the game is suppose to be a tool to entertain the world. While Blizzard only wanted monopoly to scene. This is why SC2 is in this such of a hellhole in the first place. Everyone relied on Blizzard. But they failed the expectation, nothing could have been done anymore.
If you want to call a game a 'sport', actually follow that model.
There are many threads around where we can all repeat "broodwar is like football, you don't pay copyright for the ball" "no broodwar works the way a professional league works where blizzard is the nhl or nfl and teams are licenced franchises" over and over again and get no where. It has nothing to do with this thread. It does not matter who was right between kespa and blizzard, it doesn't matter if they wanted to kill bw or not. The vast majority of players, casters and fans switched to sc2. They did not have to but they did, life sucks get over it.
On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote: [quote] But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2.
AND poured in money for tournaments to happen...
why so ignorant.
SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread.
History lessons now.
Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope.
Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments.
Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2."
Don't make arguments w/o any research.
They WERE holding illegal tournaments. Kespa could have just paid the god damn money but as I said this is a topic for another thread. The point is that in the west, players switched to sc2 without any need for evil blizzard to corrupt them. Day9 started changing his daily to sc2 content pretty early on. No one forced all of that to happen it is natural, I realize people who did not want to see that happen are still emotional about it but bw would had killed sc2 if people had not switched to it. The market rules.
You do realize that even at BW's worth at recent years, it still managed to beat out SC2's viewership count by a relatively huge margin. In the JinAir OSL, BW had over 1.6 viewers from China.
Pre-hybrid bs, the stadium were filled to the absolute max with people standing by while GOM TV can barely fill up 50 people seats.
In one match of SKT vs KT, the national demography had listed 25% of the all teens from age 13 to 18 have watched it on TV.
On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote: [quote] .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.
I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.
But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.
wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it
but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2.
AND poured in money for tournaments to happen...
why so ignorant.
SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread.
History lessons now.
Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope.
Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments.
Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2."
Don't make arguments w/o any research.
Blizzard told the press the tournaments were illegal because they were. They sued MBC because they broke copyright law. Blizzard was in the right.
If Blizzard were in the right, the wouldn't have abandoned their lawsuit with MBC.
The judge pretty much asked Blizzard about their definition of copyright infringement.
And then after some time Blizzard completely backed out because Kespa's argument was that the game is suppose to be a tool to entertain the world. While Blizzard only wanted monopoly to scene. This is why SC2 is in this such of a hellhole in the first place. Everyone relied on Blizzard. But they failed the expectation, nothing could have been done anymore.
If you want to call a game a 'sport', actually follow that model.
There are many threads around where we can all repeat "broodwar is like football, you don't pay copyright for the ball" "no broodwar works the way a professional league works where blizzard is the nhl or nfl and teams are licenced franchises" over and over again and get no where. It has nothing to do with this thread. It does not matter who was right between kespa and blizzard, it doesn't matter if they wanted to kill bw or not. The vast majority of players, casters and fans switched to sc2. They did not have to but they did, life sucks get over it.
Oh man, you really do need to learn some fundamental facts before ever posting on the industry.
The majority of the players stayed, ever read The Elephant in the Room?
And oh yeah Hybrid leagues had empty chairs with SC2 on the line.
Comparing LoL and SC2 (not sure how it works with dota2), both games work with a matchmaking system that gives you opponents that are around your skill level. If they are doing a good work, you should always be playing opponents picked for you, with harder opponents when you get better at the game. With this in mind, I don't think you can say that these games have a hudge barrier of entry or that you must practice alot to be able to play and enjoy the game. Matchmaking makes it that if you are just a simple casual gamer, you will play other people like you, therefore you will be able to enjoy the game even if you're not good. BW had none of this, if you wanted to play the "real game" (not UMS and other) you had to lose hundreds of games just to win one. It was brutal. 1v1 melee was brutal. That's why it was said to be a game for the hardcore population, to be able to even win once you need to get raped hundreds of time, and that takes alot of ressources that a more casual base is not willing to put into a single game. Had BW have some matchmaking, it would have been completly different, no matter how much you suck, you will play against people as bad as you. No more barrier of entry, welcome for casual gamers. What I'm saying is those "games for hardcore gamers" ideas are BS, matchmaking welcomes every casual to the game, and it's a great thing. So what we have is simply casual gamers strafing from one casual game (sc2) to another one (for my example LoL, but it can be any other). Why? that's where the speculation starts, maybe sc2 burns you out after a while, maybe it's simply not as fun playing it as other games. The ridiculous aproach blizzard took while making the game is to blame imo, it looks like they went with the mindset of "this is going to be the best game because bw was so hudge, it doesn't matter what we do" and actually made the game how THEY wanted to do it, how to maximize profits (2 expansions, no cross region play) and simply ignoring other things that made bw online play great (as said before, no chat channels, super empthy ect..) They need show some humility and give the game and the comunity the tools it needs to prosper, LAN, owned chat channels, name changes, region crossover ect
And here comes all of the angry bw fans. Good, then I can leave because this thread is about to derail into another whinefest that is more about venting at sc2 than it is about the op and how to improve it as an e-sport.
On October 20 2012 09:55 VanGarde wrote: And here comes all of the angry bw fans. Good, then I can leave because this thread is about to derail into another whinefest that is more about venting at sc2 than it is about the op and how to improve it as an e-sport.
Good, you admit your loss. Stop trying to run away from the argument and stay on it. That will be a lesson to you who have absolutely not a single clue about the history of the industry.
On October 20 2012 09:32 iky43210 wrote: probably alot less ppl actually plays LoL than the 32m advertise. I have 4 accounts on LoL that I log in at least once a month, i'm sure many are in the same boat.
being a free game and all, doesn't take much to make an account
They have 70+ million registered accounts, 30million active seems plausible (less then 50%). Not that it really matters cause still that is shitload of people who took the time to make a account, played or at least know about the game and are all potential viewers of events.
If a game really wants to become big as a e-sport it needs to be free to play, just like all the major sports in the world are basically either free or cheap to try and play. You dont have to be Einstein to figure that out.
On October 20 2012 09:55 VanGarde wrote: And here comes all of the angry bw fans. Good, then I can leave because this thread is about to derail into another whinefest that is more about venting at sc2 than it is about the op and how to improve it as an e-sport.
Good, you admit your loss. Stop trying to run away from the argument and stay on it. That will be a lesson to you who have absolutely not a single clue about the history of the industry.
No, but this thread is not about the omg blizzard killed sc2 conspiracy. There are many of those, and I have had this argument to death already in those. I see no reason to help you troll another thread into a completely different topic. If you want to take that as my defeat go right on ahead whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Fortunately my life does not revolve around your opinion of me.
On October 20 2012 09:55 VanGarde wrote: And here comes all of the angry bw fans. Good, then I can leave because this thread is about to derail into another whinefest that is more about venting at sc2 than it is about the op and how to improve it as an e-sport.
Good, you admit your loss. Stop trying to run away from the argument and stay on it. That will be a lesson to you who have absolutely not a single clue about the history of the industry.
No, but this thread is not about the omg blizzard killed sc2 conspiracy. There are many of those, and I have had this argument to death already in those. I see no reason to help you troll another thread into a completely different topic. If you want to take that as my defeat go right on ahead whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Fortunately my life does not revolve around your opinion of me.
Then why the fuck are you still replying to me? Follow your original message that you will leave the thread and do it well.
On October 20 2012 09:55 VanGarde wrote: And here comes all of the angry bw fans. Good, then I can leave because this thread is about to derail into another whinefest that is more about venting at sc2 than it is about the op and how to improve it as an e-sport.
Good, you admit your loss. Stop trying to run away from the argument and stay on it. That will be a lesson to you who have absolutely not a single clue about the history of the industry.
No, but this thread is not about the omg blizzard killed sc2 conspiracy. There are many of those, and I have had this argument to death already in those. I see no reason to help you troll another thread into a completely different topic. If you want to take that as my defeat go right on ahead whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Fortunately my life does not revolve around your opinion of me.
Then why the fuck are you still replying to me? Follow your original message that you will leave the thread and do it well.
I just wanted to clarify that you have my permission to feel really good about yourself and assume that I admit defeat to your superior arguing skills if you want to. Have a good day.
On October 20 2012 09:55 VanGarde wrote: And here comes all of the angry bw fans. Good, then I can leave because this thread is about to derail into another whinefest that is more about venting at sc2 than it is about the op and how to improve it as an e-sport.
Good, you admit your loss. Stop trying to run away from the argument and stay on it. That will be a lesson to you who have absolutely not a single clue about the history of the industry.
No, but this thread is not about the omg blizzard killed sc2 conspiracy. There are many of those, and I have had this argument to death already in those. I see no reason to help you troll another thread into a completely different topic. If you want to take that as my defeat go right on ahead whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Fortunately my life does not revolve around your opinion of me.
Then why the fuck are you still replying to me? Follow your original message that you will leave the thread and do it well.
I just wanted to clarify that you have my permission to feel really good about yourself and assume that I admit defeat to your superior arguing skills if you want to. Have a good day.
Its not using purely superior arguing skills. Its about knowing the right sequence of events that have lead to modern day electronic sport industry.
One thing that I have to say is that Destiny is a persuasive guy. He definitely has good public speaking skills and the way he words his arguments, leaded with satire at some parts, it's just damn good at convincing people.
On October 20 2012 09:55 VanGarde wrote: And here comes all of the angry bw fans. Good, then I can leave because this thread is about to derail into another whinefest that is more about venting at sc2 than it is about the op and how to improve it as an e-sport.
Good, you admit your loss. Stop trying to run away from the argument and stay on it. That will be a lesson to you who have absolutely not a single clue about the history of the industry.
No, but this thread is not about the omg blizzard killed sc2 conspiracy. There are many of those, and I have had this argument to death already in those. I see no reason to help you troll another thread into a completely different topic. If you want to take that as my defeat go right on ahead whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Fortunately my life does not revolve around your opinion of me.
Then why the fuck are you still replying to me? Follow your original message that you will leave the thread and do it well.
I just wanted to clarify that you have my permission to feel really good about yourself and assume that I admit defeat to your superior arguing skills if you want to. Have a good day.
Its not using purely superior arguing skills. Its about knowing the right sequence of events that have lead to modern day electronic sport industry.
Are you going to post something that is constructive, or are you just going to post random facts and conspiracy theories that have very little barring on the actual subject? Honestly you two need to take it to PM system. It's there for a reason.
On October 20 2012 09:55 VanGarde wrote: And here comes all of the angry bw fans. Good, then I can leave because this thread is about to derail into another whinefest that is more about venting at sc2 than it is about the op and how to improve it as an e-sport.
Good, you admit your loss. Stop trying to run away from the argument and stay on it. That will be a lesson to you who have absolutely not a single clue about the history of the industry.
No, but this thread is not about the omg blizzard killed sc2 conspiracy. There are many of those, and I have had this argument to death already in those. I see no reason to help you troll another thread into a completely different topic. If you want to take that as my defeat go right on ahead whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Fortunately my life does not revolve around your opinion of me.
Then why the fuck are you still replying to me? Follow your original message that you will leave the thread and do it well.
I just wanted to clarify that you have my permission to feel really good about yourself and assume that I admit defeat to your superior arguing skills if you want to. Have a good day.
Its not using purely superior arguing skills. Its about knowing the right sequence of events that have lead to modern day electronic sport industry.
Are you going to post something that is constructive, or are you just going to post random facts and conspiracy theories that have very little barring on the actual subject? Honestly you two need to take it to PM system. It's there for a reason.
On October 20 2012 09:32 iky43210 wrote: probably alot less ppl actually plays LoL than the 32m advertise. I have 4 accounts on LoL that I log in at least once a month, i'm sure many are in the same boat.
being a free game and all, doesn't take much to make an account
They have 70+ million registered accounts, 30million active seems plausible (less then 50%). Not that it really matters cause still that is shitload of people who took the time to make a account, played or at least know about the game and are all potential viewers of events.
If a game really wants to become big as a e-sport it needs to be free to play, just like all the major sports in the world are basically either free or cheap to try and play. You dont have to be Einstein to figure that out.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW).
I can't stand Destiny. Way to ramble on and point out the blatantly obvious and then point fingers without offering any solutions or ideas whatsoever. Does he really think he is smart for pointing out that casuals are the largest slice of the player base and that they're necessary for the game's stability? The Dr. Phil of Starcraft 2.
Let me say I don't even know who this Destiny guy is. But about SC2 dying, here are my 2 cents. The below are my own sentiments: When SC2 came out, most of the people I knew had it. But their interest died after a while and they aren't getting back into it. Neither could I get new people into playing SC2, because it was an 'old' game, and they didn't want to pay a huge sum of money for it. (Compared to free games like LoL). Yeah, I could find random people to play with on the Internet, but it gets boring without friends (and most ppl who lose to you will just leave the game, or u find BMers). Only a few cybercafes would stock SC2 as a game. Some have their own SC2 profiles which you can log on, others don't even provide that. I wouldn't log in to my Bnet account in a cybercafe due to security issues, and why would I even go to a cybercafe to play when I can do so at home? No one's playing SC2 in a cybercafe as a result so I couldn't even chat with random people face to face. Please tell me you have been to a cybercafe to play things like DOTA or CounterStrike. Over LAN, (DOTA, CS) you can enter the room and go "Oh, so there are X people playing this map in this cafe, and Y people playing that map. I think I shall go join group Y~~~ ^^". But SC2? Nothing, just click Find Match, or even a party is something you can do at home, eliminating the social aspect. (Not sure about LoL, I don't play that) But SC2 have an advantage over LoL, there are at least 2 more waves of publicity it can make. I hope that by the 3rd expansion, they would have F2P, and have a credit scheme for things like campaigns, etc.
The fact that the pro scene depends on casual players is unambiguously true. The number of 1v1 ladder players is simply not enough to support tournaments with decent prize money.
Blizz really screwed the pooch by making bnet 2.0 so anti-social and killing UMS games with the poorly designed Arcade (and before). They appear to be trying to correct this with HotS and we can all hope the game will draw more casual players. BW and War3 were also brutal for casual play, but UMS/custom games were lots and lots of fun for people who didn't want the challenge of 1v1 play (like me and my kids).
That said, SC2 still broadcasts really, really well. But if you want an audience, you can't cast to just the hardcore 1v1 players. You need to cast for the casuals, the LoL players, the dota2 players. If the SC2 pro scene is only about 1v1 players, it's going to be a small scene. We want the LoL & Dota2 players to be part of our scene, too (in addition to the casual SC2 players).
On October 20 2012 10:26 AnomalySC2 wrote: I can't stand Destiny. Way to ramble on and point out the blatantly obvious and then point fingers without offering any solutions or ideas whatsoever. Does he really think he is smart for pointing out that casuals are the largest slice of the player base and that they're necessary for the game's stability? The Dr. Phil of Starcraft 2.
You're blinded by hate to the point where it's embarrassing. He, and many others, believe that it lays solely on Blizzard to make improvements to the game to draw more people to it. You think that there is anything that he can suggest that wasn't already suggested to Blizzard? There are so many suggestions and things that worked in the previous games that would make Starcraft2 a more enjoyable game, but Blizzard refuses to implement them for some reason that no one outside Blizzard can even comprehend.
I get that you hate Destiny... But, you should at least admire this campaign that is ACTUALLY making Blizzard change the game for the better that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Do you have a suggestion that can bring more viewers, or just random hate for someone on the internet?
On October 20 2012 10:26 AnomalySC2 wrote: I can't stand Destiny. Way to ramble on and point out the blatantly obvious and then point fingers without offering any solutions or ideas whatsoever. Does he really think he is smart for pointing out that casuals are the largest slice of the player base and that they're necessary for the game's stability? The Dr. Phil of Starcraft 2.
You're blinded by hate to the point where it's embarrassing. He, and many others, believe that it lays solely on Blizzard to make improvements to the game to draw more people to it. You think that there is anything that he can suggest that wasn't already suggested to Blizzard? There are so many suggestions and things that worked in the previous games that would make Starcraft2 a more enjoyable game, but Blizzard refuses to implement them for some reason that no one outside Blizzard can even comprehend.
I get that you hate Destiny... But, you should at least admire this campaign that is ACTUALLY making Blizzard change the game for the better that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Do you have a suggestion that can bring more viewers, or just random hate for someone on the internet?
His "campaign" huh. Pretty much sums it up actually, thanks.
On October 20 2012 09:32 iky43210 wrote: probably alot less ppl actually plays LoL than the 32m advertise. I have 4 accounts on LoL that I log in at least once a month, i'm sure many are in the same boat.
being a free game and all, doesn't take much to make an account
They have 70+ million registered accounts, 30million active seems plausible (less then 50%). Not that it really matters cause still that is shitload of people who took the time to make a account, played or at least know about the game and are all potential viewers of events.
If a game really wants to become big as a e-sport it needs to be free to play, just like all the major sports in the world are basically either free or cheap to try and play. You dont have to be Einstein to figure that out.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW).
Dunno, might be. i just found those numbers on Gamespot so i thought those should be pretty accurate then, just like i heard on several podcast before (like i think on TGS podcast) that they had over 30million active players.
On October 20 2012 10:26 AnomalySC2 wrote: I can't stand Destiny. Way to ramble on and point out the blatantly obvious and then point fingers without offering any solutions or ideas whatsoever. Does he really think he is smart for pointing out that casuals are the largest slice of the player base and that they're necessary for the game's stability? The Dr. Phil of Starcraft 2.
You're blinded by hate to the point where it's embarrassing. He, and many others, believe that it lays solely on Blizzard to make improvements to the game to draw more people to it. You think that there is anything that he can suggest that wasn't already suggested to Blizzard? There are so many suggestions and things that worked in the previous games that would make Starcraft2 a more enjoyable game, but Blizzard refuses to implement them for some reason that no one outside Blizzard can even comprehend.
I get that you hate Destiny... But, you should at least admire this campaign that is ACTUALLY making Blizzard change the game for the better that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Do you have a suggestion that can bring more viewers, or just random hate for someone on the internet?
Entirely different generation of gamers have different opinions about where the responsibility to promote a game lies. Did valve do anything to promote CS 1.6 or patch it or provide support to the scene? Did people can fly for Painkiller? Did id software for Quake? Did Blizzard for BW? The cases in all of these successful scenes was that the community evolved the meta game around existing mechanics and developed maps / rules over a long period of time. The only valid argument that is placed against Blizzard in terms of a company's responsibility is LAN support since some might consider it a necessary part of the product, and there is a valid reason against that.
This generation of gamer's flock to F2P due to its ease of access, if that's where "esports" and the money is going so be it. Won't be the first time that a drastic shift in the industry occurred. I just hope something good comes out of it.
On October 20 2012 10:26 AnomalySC2 wrote: I can't stand Destiny. Way to ramble on and point out the blatantly obvious and then point fingers without offering any solutions or ideas whatsoever. Does he really think he is smart for pointing out that casuals are the largest slice of the player base and that they're necessary for the game's stability? The Dr. Phil of Starcraft 2.
You're blinded by hate to the point where it's embarrassing. He, and many others, believe that it lays solely on Blizzard to make improvements to the game to draw more people to it. You think that there is anything that he can suggest that wasn't already suggested to Blizzard? There are so many suggestions and things that worked in the previous games that would make Starcraft2 a more enjoyable game, but Blizzard refuses to implement them for some reason that no one outside Blizzard can even comprehend.
I get that you hate Destiny... But, you should at least admire this campaign that is ACTUALLY making Blizzard change the game for the better that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Do you have a suggestion that can bring more viewers, or just random hate for someone on the internet?
His "campaign" huh. Pretty much sums it up actually, thanks.
Reread it champ. I said "This campaign"... A campaign to make the game better for everyone. Thanks, but you need to go back to school and learn some reading comprehension. Destiny isn't the only one here trying to make the game great but he is helping. It's a shame that people like you jump to conclusions and bring in past hate.
On October 20 2012 10:26 AnomalySC2 wrote: I can't stand Destiny. Way to ramble on and point out the blatantly obvious and then point fingers without offering any solutions or ideas whatsoever. Does he really think he is smart for pointing out that casuals are the largest slice of the player base and that they're necessary for the game's stability? The Dr. Phil of Starcraft 2.
You're blinded by hate to the point where it's embarrassing. He, and many others, believe that it lays solely on Blizzard to make improvements to the game to draw more people to it. You think that there is anything that he can suggest that wasn't already suggested to Blizzard? There are so many suggestions and things that worked in the previous games that would make Starcraft2 a more enjoyable game, but Blizzard refuses to implement them for some reason that no one outside Blizzard can even comprehend.
I get that you hate Destiny... But, you should at least admire this campaign that is ACTUALLY making Blizzard change the game for the better that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Do you have a suggestion that can bring more viewers, or just random hate for someone on the internet?
His "campaign" huh. Pretty much sums it up actually, thanks.
Reread it champ. I said "This campaign"... A campaign to make the game better for everyone. Thanks, but you need to go back to school and learn some reading comprehension. Destiny isn't the only one here trying to make the game great but he is helping. It's a shame that people like you jump to conclusions and bring in past hate.
Oh ok lets pretend that this thread isn't about him at all, he isn't at the center of attention of all of this at all. And who is jumping to conclusions, I have no past hate for him, this is the first time I've ever paid any attention to him whatsoever. Also hate is a rather strong word to begin with.
On October 20 2012 10:33 ineversmile wrote: Destiny switched over to LoL because he wasn't good enough to cut it at SC2. So I don't really know why anybody cares about his opinion.
Nothing more valid than the good old ad hominem argument.
People seem to miss the point in the differences in prize pools. It seems irrelevant to me how much each player gets, as the size of the prize pool itself reflects the amount of investment into the game, not the individual winnings of players.
On October 20 2012 09:32 iky43210 wrote: probably alot less ppl actually plays LoL than the 32m advertise. I have 4 accounts on LoL that I log in at least once a month, i'm sure many are in the same boat.
being a free game and all, doesn't take much to make an account
They have 70+ million registered accounts, 30million active seems plausible (less then 50%). Not that it really matters cause still that is shitload of people who took the time to make a account, played or at least know about the game and are all potential viewers of events.
If a game really wants to become big as a e-sport it needs to be free to play, just like all the major sports in the world are basically either free or cheap to try and play. You dont have to be Einstein to figure that out.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW).
Dunno, might be. i just found those numbers on Gamespot so i thought those should be pretty accurate then, just like i heard on several podcast before (like i think on TGS podcast) that they had over 30million active players.
Riot has a history of using the most attractive number, even if it's not the most accurate. If you count people like me, who log on once or twice a month to play dom with friends who have been up our ass to do so, then yeah, it might be close to 30 mil. But I am by no means an active lol player, spectator, or community contributor. I wouldn't have ever touched the game if it wasn't free.
Not that I'm trying to take anything away from them, that game is kicking ass right now, but 30 million active players seems like high ballin' even for something as gargantuan as lol. I'd be interested to know how many people log on daily, what the number of online players is during peak hours on a Saturday, etc. That gives a better snapshot than some vague number that has a margin of error with the same amount of zeros involved.
On October 20 2012 09:32 iky43210 wrote: probably alot less ppl actually plays LoL than the 32m advertise. I have 4 accounts on LoL that I log in at least once a month, i'm sure many are in the same boat.
being a free game and all, doesn't take much to make an account
They have 70+ million registered accounts, 30million active seems plausible (less then 50%). Not that it really matters cause still that is shitload of people who took the time to make a account, played or at least know about the game and are all potential viewers of events.
If a game really wants to become big as a e-sport it needs to be free to play, just like all the major sports in the world are basically either free or cheap to try and play. You dont have to be Einstein to figure that out.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW).
Dunno, might be. i just found those numbers on Gamespot so i thought those should be pretty accurate then, just like i heard on several podcast before (like i think on TGS podcast) that they had over 30million active players.
Riot has a history of using the most attractive number, even if it's not the most accurate. If you count people like me, who log on once or twice a month to play dom with friends who have been up our ass to do so, then yeah, it might be close to 30 mil. But I am by no means an active lol player, spectator, or community contributor. I wouldn't have ever touched the game if it wasn't free.
Not that I'm trying to take anything away from them, that game is kicking ass right now, but 30 million active players seems like high ballin' even for something as gargantuan as lol. I'd be interested to know how many people log on daily, what the number of online players is during peak hours on a Saturday, etc. That gives a better snapshot than some vague number that has a margin of error with the same amount of zeros involved.
I already posted the latest numbers but here they are again:
On October 20 2012 09:32 iky43210 wrote: probably alot less ppl actually plays LoL than the 32m advertise. I have 4 accounts on LoL that I log in at least once a month, i'm sure many are in the same boat.
being a free game and all, doesn't take much to make an account
They have 70+ million registered accounts, 30million active seems plausible (less then 50%). Not that it really matters cause still that is shitload of people who took the time to make a account, played or at least know about the game and are all potential viewers of events.
If a game really wants to become big as a e-sport it needs to be free to play, just like all the major sports in the world are basically either free or cheap to try and play. You dont have to be Einstein to figure that out.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW).
i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
On October 20 2012 10:33 ineversmile wrote: Destiny switched over to LoL because he wasn't good enough to cut it at SC2. So I don't really know why anybody cares about his opinion.
Nothing more valid than the good old ad hominem argument.
People seem to miss the point in the differences in prize pools. It seems irrelevant to me how much each player gets, as the size of the prize pool itself reflects the amount of investment into the game, not the individual winnings of players.
I don't think it's legitimate to compare prize pools between two different business models, and for the sake of argument let's compare these two existing business models between Blizzard and Riot with old business models of FPS games from late 90s to early 2000s.
The model that FPS games operated under was that since the game is inherently balanced based on the fact that as long as the map was made to have symmetrical travel time between key points and line of sight and that weapons did not remove micro ability from the other players in unpredictable or unpreventable manners, the game didn't require any further patching since everyone is given the same tools. As long as the game had a stable network set up and accessible mapping tools, the company did not need to expend any further investment into balancing the game. The investment - returns largely depended on potential players playing a game in a net-cafe / pirating it -> viewing professional games and exposure to promotional products -> purchasing the actual product for access to proper clans and servers as well as purchasing advertised products. And indeed, many people never purchased the old FPS esports games such as quake or CS 1.6 or pain killer because there was never any direct incentive to, the events were ran at a break even or net loss position made up by the sponsors due to an incentive to advertise in a relatively new market where market exposure of your product was extremely important.
The model that first gen strategy games operated under was that companies (almost solely blizzard in this scenario) needed to provide continuous patching and support to the player base as the expectation of the game's balance (note: irrelevant to whether the game has an esports following). As long as the games were balanced to a state where the audience and meta-game surrounding it deems appropriate, the company could drop their support of further updating the game. The only incentive to do so being company image and customer satisfaction, there is almost no monetary gain that can be derived from growing the esports scene for the company itself, as viewers of the professional games are almost guaranteed to have owned the product / pirated the product. I.e. The majority of those who've are tuning in to see the game being played professionally gained the exposure not via news about the professional esport, but by playing the game in the first place. During this phase the esports made profits or losses by the direct sales of merchandising and advertising based on a quantifiable and justifiable appeal to sponsors, namely on a stable TV channel (see OGN / MBCGame / other TV channels in China / S.Korea) which was comparable to advertising on other networks.
The model that current gen F2P games operate under is that the company's image and the state of the game is directly translatable to profits of the game, hence an additional incentive to actively update it, which is in stark contrast with SC2's business model which is all sales are final. Attracting new audiences for the professional scene is directly proportional to how many potential players will join the player base because there isn't any barrier for the player to do so. This model directly out competes a non F2P model (SC2) because there is almost zero indication that by improving the balance of SC2 you do anything to increase the sales of the existing product, you main retain existing customers who have experienced the product and demand improvements, but enjoying a viewing of professional SC2 is directly linked to having played SC2 or understanding it which has a barrier being the price of the game; where as anyone who wants to do the same for a F2P game doesn't have to. The model is hence comparable to the old model operated with FPS games, yet now there is no reason to worry about piracy not translating into the purchase of your product.
Hence expecting Blizzard to carry out the same standards to a business model where support for the competitive scene is directly proportional to potential sales is ridiculous. We can argue that Blizzard has not done enough to support their game (namely LAN support), and I would agree, but only as a consumer of their game SC2. Blizzard simply can't be expected to provide the same level of support altruistically when it's an inherent difference in the business model.
On October 20 2012 10:26 AnomalySC2 wrote: I can't stand Destiny. Way to ramble on and point out the blatantly obvious and then point fingers without offering any solutions or ideas whatsoever. Does he really think he is smart for pointing out that casuals are the largest slice of the player base and that they're necessary for the game's stability? The Dr. Phil of Starcraft 2.
You're blinded by hate to the point where it's embarrassing. He, and many others, believe that it lays solely on Blizzard to make improvements to the game to draw more people to it. You think that there is anything that he can suggest that wasn't already suggested to Blizzard? There are so many suggestions and things that worked in the previous games that would make Starcraft2 a more enjoyable game, but Blizzard refuses to implement them for some reason that no one outside Blizzard can even comprehend.
I get that you hate Destiny... But, you should at least admire this campaign that is ACTUALLY making Blizzard change the game for the better that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Do you have a suggestion that can bring more viewers, or just random hate for someone on the internet?
His "campaign" huh. Pretty much sums it up actually, thanks.
Reread it champ. I said "This campaign"... A campaign to make the game better for everyone. Thanks, but you need to go back to school and learn some reading comprehension. Destiny isn't the only one here trying to make the game great but he is helping. It's a shame that people like you jump to conclusions and bring in past hate.
Oh ok lets pretend that this thread isn't about him at all, he isn't at the center of attention of all of this at all. And who is jumping to conclusions, I have no past hate for him, this is the first time I've ever paid any attention to him whatsoever. Also hate is a rather strong word to begin with.
haha you actually thought the thread was about destiny
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW). i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams.
i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW). i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams.
i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch.
No SC2 is fun to play, shit to watch....
Posturing around a 200/200 army VIA SupCom style is pretty fun to watch. But unlike SupCom, the army clumps which gives you no fucking ideas ideas about the intricacies in the battles.
Meh LoL is the game of the times...easy for people to just jump in and play, don't have to put too much thought into it at low levels. If BW came out today it would fail too because it would be too hard. Actually sc2's had more success than I expected considering the state of the gaming scene nowadays. Personally once we get to sc2's seemingly inevitable demise I won't be watching esports anymore. I could never get into any moba's theyre just boring as hell to watch. But obviously theres an audience for it so more power to them. Too bad we can't have co-existence in esports like in actual sports. Its just one fad after another.
The most surreal thing is that people are making LoL out to be a successful game because riot is doing everything that Blizzard isn't when in fact from the point of view of the issues we have with sc2, LoL is a HORRIBLE rolemodel. In most regards it is even worse. Whatever LoL's success is from it is NOT from doing things better than Blizzard. Lets review:
Chat channels and the game feeling empty: Well from a chat channels point of view LoL is exactly like sc2. You can have chat channels but they are not apparently obvious and you only get into them if you actually go and find them in much the same way as you do in sc2. There is nothing objectively better with LoL chat system but there are multiple things that are worse. First of all you can't just tab up a chat frame while you are in game like you can in sc2. If you are in game your are reduced to command line message sending which requires you to know the syntax in order to send a message to someone. Unless you already know how to do it you won't figure it out. There is another thing that would have had sc2 players up in arms. Get this, you can obviously put people on ignore just like you can in sc2 but in LoL the players on the enemy team are AUTOMATICALLY set to ignore as default unless you explicitly turn this off yourself. Imagine playing sc2 and you have to go into bnet options and check a box to not make the game autoblock all your opponents.
Custom games: The LoL custom game system just consists of one single browser list containing all currently hosted games, it is really obnoxious to find what you are searching for, there is also no autostart function so if the person who hosted happens to be afk, which is often the case you will wait 10 minutes for a lobby to fill up only to have to leave once everything is full but the game isn't starting. There is also no join as party function you have to coordinate with your buddies to find and join the right game in the list. You can invite someone from your friends list into the game you are in but you can't suggest players so you still need to have everyone that is playing in friends.
LAN support Yes LoL is getting this apparently but the important thing is that it hasn't had LAN support for all of its life time so all of the success it has had has been with the clear assumption that there will be no LAN support. In fact if anything the game is way more unstable than sc2 servers are even though it has gotten better in recent times.
Cross server support On the one hand you can now pay to switch server, I am not sure if you can do this between all servers or not but you can between some. On the downside this came about because Riot split the eu server in two just like that to relieve server balance. This meant that over night all EU players were told, oh btw we are splitting you all up and everyone in this country will be on this server. This effectively killed half of my social interaction in LoL because now I have all my briton friends on one side, and all of my scandinavian friends on one side. You can create an account on any server ofcourse the usefulness of this is reduced by the fact that you need to play so many games to level up and get all of the abilities that you want for competitive play. It is as if you would have to grind games for a month to unlock emp or storm. That only beings to approach the amount of time you need to put in to buy all of the runes and unlock all of the champions that you need to just get your second account relatively playable.
Balance New champions are added on a montly basis more or less and the new champions are almost invariably either terribly UP or horribly OP. They might get hot fixed relatively quickly but there is a lot of volatility in the game balance, way more so than in Starcraft 2.
I am not listing all of these things to bash on LoL, I do play the game myself. But people need to realize that whatever LoL is doing right, it is not all of the things that sc2 fans want from Blizzard. Most of those things are radically worse in LoL and it is not like the community have demanded things from riot for ages that never come to pass. The point of this reply was to illustrate that you are falling too much for the grass always being greener. LoL has many players because it has a low skill floor and because it is easy to get into. The long term replayability is dependent on the constant addition of new champions because god knows the maps doesn't change. It has essentially been played on the same map for all of it's life span. It is not a popular game because it is the apex of game design and interactivity, it is World of Warcraft PvP in Moba form.
Just more fear-mongering from Destiny. I don't get it how can this community be so insecure that a success of any other e-sport game must automatically mean the end of this one. For over a decade various games coexisted in competitive scene but now it seems Destiny declared that there can be only one.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW). i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams.
i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch.
No SC2 is fun to play, shit to watch....
Posturing around a 200/200 army VIA SupCom style is pretty fun to watch. But unlike SupCom, the army clumps which gives you no fucking ideas ideas about the intricacies in the battles.
I would rather watch SC2 than watch LoL. I would rather claw my eyes out than have to watch pro LoL.
If you think competitive SC2 is shit to watch, you haven't seen competitive LoL.
On October 20 2012 11:46 pmp10 wrote: Just more fear-mongering from Destiny. I don't get it how can this community be so insecure that a success of any other e-sport game must automatically mean the end of this one. For over a decade various games coexisted in competitive scene but now it seems Destiny declared that there can be only one.
I don't get how you can be so naive, ignorant, and spiteful...
Did you even read the post originally put forth? Did you watch that video in the OP of this thread? Do you have a learning disability, or are you just pretending you understand English?
Destiny's point was NOT that LoL is going to kill SC2...he's saying that if Blizzard doesn't take lessons from what LoL has done right, SC2 is going to get left behind and die a slow death while other games continue to grow.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW). i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams.
i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch.
No SC2 is fun to play, shit to watch....
Posturing around a 200/200 army VIA SupCom style is pretty fun to watch. But unlike SupCom, the army clumps which gives you no fucking ideas ideas about the intricacies in the battles.
I would rather watch SC2 than watch LoL. I would rather claw my eyes out than have to watch pro LoL.
If you think competitive SC2 is shit to watch, you haven't seen competitive LoL.
Nah, rather stick to watching BW or Street Fighter because those two are the most spectator friendly games I have ever seen.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW). i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams.
i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch.
No SC2 is fun to play, shit to watch....
Posturing around a 200/200 army VIA SupCom style is pretty fun to watch. But unlike SupCom, the army clumps which gives you no fucking ideas ideas about the intricacies in the battles.
I would rather watch SC2 than watch LoL. I would rather claw my eyes out than have to watch pro LoL.
If you think competitive SC2 is shit to watch, you haven't seen competitive LoL.
But some people like watching 60min games in which no kill happens for 40mins
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW). i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams.
i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch.
No SC2 is fun to play, shit to watch....
Posturing around a 200/200 army VIA SupCom style is pretty fun to watch. But unlike SupCom, the army clumps which gives you no fucking ideas ideas about the intricacies in the battles.
Because 45 minute matches with 30 minutes downtime between each match is extremely entertaining right? That was the LoL World Championships for you. If you think SC2 is boring to watch I recommend you get involved watching the Korean scene, I don't watch the foreigners they're boring to watch except from Stephano and Lucifron
On viewer numbers the LoL finals peaked 990k meanwhile WCS Asia was live and only peaked 10k.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW). i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams.
i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch.
No SC2 is fun to play, shit to watch....
Posturing around a 200/200 army VIA SupCom style is pretty fun to watch. But unlike SupCom, the army clumps which gives you no fucking ideas ideas about the intricacies in the battles.
I would rather watch SC2 than watch LoL. I would rather claw my eyes out than have to watch pro LoL.
If you think competitive SC2 is shit to watch, you haven't seen competitive LoL.
I think they're both perfectly capable of being "shit to watch" in their current state. The only difference is that SC2 has potential (because of its genre).
Some argue that LoL is good because a lot of people watch but can you imagine the RIOTS (!!!) we'd see if Justin Bieber's shows were free? Fangirls would kill each other. What I'm trying to say and maybe it's overly rude but LoL's accessibility to simpletons makes it watchable to them. Meanwhile nobody cares about games of chess.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW). i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams.
i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch.
No SC2 is fun to play, shit to watch....
Posturing around a 200/200 army VIA SupCom style is pretty fun to watch. But unlike SupCom, the army clumps which gives you no fucking ideas ideas about the intricacies in the battles.
Because 45 minute matches with 30 minutes downtime between each match is extremely entertaining right? That was the LoL World Championships for you. If you think SC2 is boring to watch I recommend you get involved watching the Korean scene, I don't watch the foreigners they're boring to watch except from Stephano and Lucifron
On viewer numbers the LoL finals peaked 990k meanwhile WCS Asia was live and only peaked 10k.
Well Idk man, at least LoL is action packed with stuff happening all over the place. SC2 is just two balls getting gradually bigger and bigger until the inevitable clash into GG.
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW). i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams.
i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch.
No SC2 is fun to play, shit to watch....
Posturing around a 200/200 army VIA SupCom style is pretty fun to watch. But unlike SupCom, the army clumps which gives you no fucking ideas ideas about the intricacies in the battles.
Because 45 minute matches with 30 minutes downtime between each match is extremely entertaining right? That was the LoL World Championships for you. If you think SC2 is boring to watch I recommend you get involved watching the Korean scene, I don't watch the foreigners they're boring to watch except from Stephano and Lucifron
On viewer numbers the LoL finals peaked 990k meanwhile WCS Asia was live and only peaked 10k.
Well Idk man, at least LoL is action packed with stuff happening all over the place. SC2 is just two balls getting gradually bigger and bigger until the inevitable clash into GG.
That is not true in the slightest, have you watched high level LoL? There might be a lot happening in LoL at lower levels because players making mistakes causes a lot of back and fourth. But at the top level players don't make mistakes because the laning phase is just so easy. Instead of death balls it is just two sides of heroes posturing against each other trying to out creep the other and unless anyone makes a huge mistake, no one is going to die for a long time. Not to mention the fact that since there are three lanes and a jungle you will only be seeing one fifth of what is going on at any given time.
On October 20 2012 11:46 pmp10 wrote: Just more fear-mongering from Destiny. I don't get it how can this community be so insecure that a success of any other e-sport game must automatically mean the end of this one. For over a decade various games coexisted in competitive scene but now it seems Destiny declared that there can be only one.
I don't get how you can be so naive, ignorant, and spiteful...
Did you even read the post originally put forth? Did you watch that video in the OP of this thread? Do you have a learning disability, or are you just pretending you understand English?
Destiny's point was NOT that LoL is going to kill SC2...he's saying that if Blizzard doesn't take lessons from what LoL has done right, SC2 is going to get left behind and die a slow death while other games continue to grow.
WHOA, sorry. Did I just make you look stupid?
Sadly I've seen all that drivel that Destiny had to say on the subject and the point stands. The idea the SC2 can be a good casual experience is utter nonsense only beaten in ignorance by the notion that you should ape solutions made for completely different audience and formula. The only point with any sort of validity is that pros and casters have become detached from typical viewer in their wants and needs (more name changes will save SC2) but then not even Destiny would take into consideration that health-bars may be detracting to casuals in viewing experience and now he throws the first stone.
So all these sponsors suddenly don't have enough money to sponsor across multiple games / platforms / teams anymore? I don't understand his reasoning, If it was as "spot on" as people like to say then why are there still sponsors hanging around sc2? They should of all abandoned ship a long time ago considering LoL has been trumping everything in stream numbers for quite a while now.
I don't understand this notion that , "If its not the biggest , its gonna die" which seems to be what it boils down to. Nothing has shown that to be the case. Unless someone wants to point me towards a company that has outright said "hey all that money we were putting in to Dota / sc2 / ect ect, we're stopping that so we can put it in LoL exculsively", I could of very well missed an announcement like that, I won't claim to know everything, so if that has happened please enlighten me.
This isn't highlander, as much as some drama queens would like to claim otherwise. There is enough room for a lot of scenes to grow.
Destiny is obviously biased on his opinion in the LoL vs SC2 debate. For one he says something to the extent of why would someone want to make 100k in an SC2 tournament when they could win million dollar tournaments in LoL. There has only been one LoL tournament that awarded a million dollars to first at the end of the season(like Dota 2), and you have to remember it's split between at least 5 people on your team, possibly more. I would even lean to SC2 having more tournaments than LoL currently. LoL also clearly has a younger demographic than SC2, whereas Destiny claims that theyr'e one in the same. Also trying to claim 95% of SC2 people don't give a fuck about it's professional status or meta game feels like another exaggeration. The only thing he's accurate on is numbers = sponsorship/salaries/prize pool, and I don't think anyone ever claimed or thought SC2 would be competitive in numbers with LoL, he's just stating the obvious on this. It's a free to play game made so a 10 year old can be ranked in the top 5% vs a game you have to purchase that people can play for years and not master. Not to mention we all know Blizzard is likely to never push their games for the competitive scene, in fact they impede some tournaments by requiring them to sign a contract with Blizzard when the prize pool is over 5k. Where as Riot has been throwing money at the scene, i.e. buying the expedition slot at Dreamhack to get their foot in the door last year, and doing whatever they can to force themselves into esports. So I don't see how any of this is news, I'm pretty sure anyone not new to the scene knew where SC2 stands.
Based on this discussion, and my past love for WC3 Dota, I just tried out LoL to see how "fun" it really is... was not impressed at all, never playing again. Will try out Dota 2 to see if it's any better...
On October 20 2012 11:46 pmp10 wrote: Just more fear-mongering from Destiny. I don't get it how can this community be so insecure that a success of any other e-sport game must automatically mean the end of this one. For over a decade various games coexisted in competitive scene but now it seems Destiny declared that there can be only one.
I don't get how you can be so naive, ignorant, and spiteful...
Did you even read the post originally put forth? Did you watch that video in the OP of this thread? Do you have a learning disability, or are you just pretending you understand English?
Destiny's point was NOT that LoL is going to kill SC2...he's saying that if Blizzard doesn't take lessons from what LoL has done right, SC2 is going to get left behind and die a slow death while other games continue to grow.
WHOA, sorry. Did I just make you look stupid?
Sadly I've seen all that drivel that Destiny had to say on the subject and the point stands. The idea the SC2 can be a good casual experience is utter nonsense only beaten in ignorance by the notion that you should ape solutions made for completely different audience and formula. The only point with any sort of validity is that pros and casters have become detached from typical viewer in their wants and needs (more name changes will save SC2) but then not even Destiny would take into consideration that health-bars may be detracting to casuals in viewing experience and now he throws the first stone.
There's no good reasoning backing your statements. I've played like six 1v1 ladder games in SC2 in the last ten months. I have a friend who logs like twenty hours a week in the game just from playing Gem TD while at work.
Why is LoL's audience different from SC2's? Why can't things that work for Riot be things Blizzard can think about? You see...you hate Destiny, you misunderstood it, and now that you've been shown to be wrong, I think you're just making shit up to try to wriggle out of the pickle you're in.
What Destiny said, whatever you may think of him, makes sense. It's reasonable. What you say is full of holes and is filled with assumptions that are impossible to immediately accept.
The point I think you're trying to make (your last two posts don't say much of anything except that Destiny is wrong) is that SC2 doesn't need to change, that we're fine as we are, and that LoL's success both will have no affect on us and that we can learn nothing from it. Is that correct? If not, then I'm sorry, I can only work from what you've written down, I can't extract information directly from your mind.
If you feel that way, then you're wrong. I don't know what else to tell you. SC2 isn't great, HotS looks like shit. The scene is not stable and definitely needs help, and we can ALWAYS learn from the successes of others, ESPECIALLY a game like LoL, which has two key similarities: 1. IT'S A FUCKING COMPUTER GAME, and 2. IT'S BEING PROMOTED AS AN ESPORT.
Different formulas? Different audiences? What the fuck kind of a point are you even trying to make? I'm going to assume you never played BW, because I'd be shocked if you did. See...before the awful shithole that bnet 2.0 is came to be, and before the mediocrity manifested that is SC2 was released, we had this cool game called BW, and this online multiplayer client called Bnet. When you looked at the games being hosted and played on Bnet, which you could get to with one click of the mouse, something like 20% of the games played were actual 1v1 melee games. That's probably being generous. It was likely closer to 10%, if that. Everything else was team games, UMS, and FMPs. It was largely casual players playing all those games. That kept the community alive, it kept people online, and it kept the game fun. Even on iCCup, we'd host UMS maps to unwind after ladder games or intense practice sessions.
We don't need to force people who don't like to ladder into laddering. We don't need to somehow magically revitalize the ladder. People who want to play 1v1 seriously will do it on their own. Those who don't won't, and they shouldn't be coerced into doing it.
Despite that, we need to keep people interested in the game, and it needs to stay relevant. What better way than to keep the game as a UMS hub, just as BW was? Blizzard put in very robust tools for mapmakers to make all kinds of shit, from RPGs to FPSs all in-game. Shit, we even have Bejeweled in SC2. The game doesn't need to be kept alive solely through people actually playing ladder.
I follow the pro scene very closely, and I've been following it for years. I was way past seriously playing BW when SC2 came out, and I'm pretty much over playing that one too. Despite that, I still follow the scene. I guess you could call me a "casual", at this point. While the scene is fortunate in that I will never stop being a viewer because of how long I've been attached to this community, other casuals may not be in such a spot.
All Destiny is saying is to keep SC2 relevant for as many people as possible. He's not saying to compromise the competitive 1v1 aspect of SC2, he's saying to make the UMS, casual side side more robust. If you disagree with that, then you're just being spiteful, and you're shitting on Destiny, not his argument (which, btw, is a logical fallacy).
On October 20 2012 12:58 PH wrote: [...] Different formulas? Different audiences? What the fuck kind of a point are you even trying to make? [...] Despite that, we need to keep people interested in the game, and it needs to stay relevant. What better way than to keep the game as a UMS hub, just as BW was? Blizzard put in very robust tools for mapmakers to make all kinds of shit, from RPGs to FPSs all in-game. Shit, we even have Bejeweled in SC2. The game doesn't need to be kept alive solely through people actually playing ladder. [...] All Destiny is saying is to keep SC2 relevant for as many people as possible. He's not saying to compromise the competitive 1v1 aspect of SC2, he's saying to make the UMS, casual side side more robust. [...]
In bullet points then: - SC2 has a hardcore audience (this community for instance) with nostalgia and expectations (mostly derived from BW) that make it impossible to compromise with needs of casual audience - expectations of gamers have changed since BW and it's impossible to keep that audience attention with minor changes to SC2 or BW formula (UMS ect.) - LOL and DOTA belong to different genre and cannot be beaten in the level of ease of access or casual appeal - trying to make SC2 appeal to a casual audience will be at best unsuccessful or at worst will drive away hardcore supporters
On October 20 2012 12:15 Leth0 wrote: So all these sponsors suddenly don't have enough money to sponsor across multiple games / platforms / teams anymore? I don't understand his reasoning, If it was as "spot on" as people like to say then why are there still sponsors hanging around sc2? They should of all abandoned ship a long time ago considering LoL has been trumping everything in stream numbers for quite a while now.
I don't understand this notion that , "If its not the biggest , its gonna die" which seems to be what it boils down to. Nothing has shown that to be the case. Unless someone wants to point me towards a company that has outright said "hey all that money we were putting in to Dota / sc2 / ect ect, we're stopping that so we can put it in LoL exculsively", I could of very well missed an announcement like that, I won't claim to know everything, so if that has happened please enlighten me.
This isn't highlander, as much as some drama queens would like to claim otherwise. There is enough room for a lot of scenes to grow.
The major problem as I see it is Korea. I think everyone knows that SC2 isn't catching on but I read that the situation is quite dire. If big sponsors start backing LoL in Korea, I don't see many Starcraft 2 progamers staying with the game and not switching to LoL. Korea as a culture is very trend oriented.
On October 20 2012 12:15 Leth0 wrote: So all these sponsors suddenly don't have enough money to sponsor across multiple games / platforms / teams anymore? I don't understand his reasoning, If it was as "spot on" as people like to say then why are there still sponsors hanging around sc2? They should of all abandoned ship a long time ago considering LoL has been trumping everything in stream numbers for quite a while now.
I don't understand this notion that , "If its not the biggest , its gonna die" which seems to be what it boils down to. Nothing has shown that to be the case. Unless someone wants to point me towards a company that has outright said "hey all that money we were putting in to Dota / sc2 / ect ect, we're stopping that so we can put it in LoL exculsively", I could of very well missed an announcement like that, I won't claim to know everything, so if that has happened please enlighten me.
This isn't highlander, as much as some drama queens would like to claim otherwise. There is enough room for a lot of scenes to grow.
The major problem as I see it is Korea. I think everyone knows that SC2 isn't catching on but I read that the situation is quite dire. If big sponsors start backing LoL in Korea, I don't see many Starcraft 2 progamers staying with the game and not switching to LoL. Korea as a culture is very trend oriented.
CJ, Kespa team along with KT Rolster already have their own LoL division teams. So yes, big sponsors already have LoL's back.
And LoL's Chinese presence is strong too. Tencent, the third most used internet domain behind Google and Amazon have the publish right for LoL in China. There, the scene is even bigger than Korea.
Destiny is absolutely right. The problem with the game is that it's just not very casual and losing is very degrading. It's all about who's better and winning than having fun. What's worse is that to have fun you either need to be good at the mechanics of the game or you need to play someone who isn't as good as you or just as good as you. There is always a loser in the game. You can't have a technical winner because they enjoyed the time they spent ultimately losing. In a game where you lose to Marauder proxies and Zealot Proxies that you really can't stop unless you know for a fact they are there and are happening, how can you really expect any sort of fun?
The Arcade is the real only casual gaming location in SC2 because the actual game is so hyper competitive. If want to have fun with this game and I'm trying to, but when the game is imaged by professional play and balanced based off of professionals rather than aesthetics/casual gaming then you're only inviting professionals who play the game for 15 hours a day as their profession. So SC2 really isn't much of a game to be honest, it's more like a job and casuals are the people being held back in High School because their APM isn't above 100.
On October 20 2012 12:15 Leth0 wrote: So all these sponsors suddenly don't have enough money to sponsor across multiple games / platforms / teams anymore? I don't understand his reasoning, If it was as "spot on" as people like to say then why are there still sponsors hanging around sc2? They should of all abandoned ship a long time ago considering LoL has been trumping everything in stream numbers for quite a while now.
I don't understand this notion that , "If its not the biggest , its gonna die" which seems to be what it boils down to. Nothing has shown that to be the case. Unless someone wants to point me towards a company that has outright said "hey all that money we were putting in to Dota / sc2 / ect ect, we're stopping that so we can put it in LoL exculsively", I could of very well missed an announcement like that, I won't claim to know everything, so if that has happened please enlighten me.
This isn't highlander, as much as some drama queens would like to claim otherwise. There is enough room for a lot of scenes to grow.
The major problem as I see it is Korea. I think everyone knows that SC2 isn't catching on but I read that the situation is quite dire. If big sponsors start backing LoL in Korea, I don't see many Starcraft 2 progamers staying with the game and not switching to LoL. Korea as a culture is very trend oriented.
CJ, Kespa team along with KT Rolster already have their own LoL division teams. So yes, big sponsors already have LoL's back.
And LoL's Chinese presence is strong too. Tencent, the third most used internet domain behind Google and Amazon have the publish right for LoL in China. There, the scene is even bigger than Korea.
LG-IM, MVP, and StarTale also have teams. More and more people are switching over.
sc2 is not popular in SingApore anyway. I am just playing cause I enjoy the challenge. But will probably switch to mmorpg. DOTA types of game are just too boring to me. The skill cap as an individual is pretty low for LOL, but team play makes things more interesting. I guess that is why it appeal to so many people. You cant go against the change of tides. Just play what you like. the funds in gaming are almost always imaginary. Kids don't earn much, there are no balance of funds. Advertisement will never earn you enough.
On October 21 2012 08:08 Zaurus wrote: sc2 is not popular in SingApore anyway. I am just playing cause I enjoy the challenge. But will probably switch to mmorpg. DOTA types of game are just too boring.
So you would rather grind....that's kind of not exciting imo. Unless the one you want try have crazy PvP action.
On October 21 2012 08:08 Zaurus wrote: sc2 is not popular in SingApore anyway. I am just playing cause I enjoy the challenge. But will probably switch to mmorpg. DOTA types of game are just too boring.
So you would rather grind....that's kind of not exciting imo. Unless the one you want try have crazy PvP action.
Mmorpg is not just about grinding. Is about socializing while teaming up and joking about stuffs.
On October 21 2012 07:56 Jasiwel wrote: Destiny is absolutely right. The problem with the game is that it's just not very casual and losing is very degrading. It's all about who's better and winning than having fun. What's worse is that to have fun you either need to be good at the mechanics of the game or you need to play someone who isn't as good as you or just as good as you. There is always a loser in the game. You can't have a technical winner because they enjoyed the time they spent ultimately losing. In a game where you lose to Marauder proxies and Zealot Proxies that you really can't stop unless you know for a fact they are there and are happening, how can you really expect any sort of fun?
The Arcade is the real only casual gaming location in SC2 because the actual game is so hyper competitive. If want to have fun with this game and I'm trying to, but when the game is imaged by professional play and balanced based off of professionals rather than aesthetics/casual gaming then you're only inviting professionals who play the game for 15 hours a day as their profession. So SC2 really isn't much of a game to be honest, it's more like a job and casuals are the people being held back in High School because their APM isn't above 100.
I totally agree, but also I wonder, even if Sc2's UI and arcade were fixed so that people could enjoy customs more, would that really make people watch SC2's standard 1v1 multiplayer more? It just seems like two completely different things. I mean for SC Brood war I remember playing 2v2v2v2 BGH, the money maps, evolves and bunker wars when I was a kid, but that didn't translate into me watching brood war matches, I couldn't care less about that because I didn't play it, wasn't good at it, and it was kind of off my radar in general.
The reason people love LoL, most likely, is that the fundamental game itself is really fun. There are no customs (that I'm aware of) with LoL - its just the game that people love, so its a much more natural path that they would also enjoy watching pro-gamers play a game that they love. I can't see the direct link between playing customs in SC2 and watching standard SC2...I mean maybe they'll be willing to try to play standard once in a while because hey its right there, but I remember for Brood War how terrible I was, and decided there's just no reason to try again (even a few years later).
Edit: Anyway that's probably a bit of a tangent, its just another of Destiny's posts was mainly about customs and that's what a lot of people are complaining about. I agree though, SC2 actually needs to be fun to play and not scary
On October 20 2012 12:15 Yusaho wrote: Destiny is obviously biased on his opinion in the LoL vs SC2 debate. For one he says something to the extent of why would someone want to make 100k in an SC2 tournament when they could win million dollar tournaments in LoL. There has only been one LoL tournament that awarded a million dollars to first at the end of the season(like Dota 2), and you have to remember it's split between at least 5 people on your team, possibly more. I would even lean to SC2 having more tournaments than LoL currently. LoL also clearly has a younger demographic than SC2, whereas Destiny claims that theyr'e one in the same. Also trying to claim 95% of SC2 people don't give a fuck about it's professional status or meta game feels like another exaggeration. The only thing he's accurate on is numbers = sponsorship/salaries/prize pool, and I don't think anyone ever claimed or thought SC2 would be competitive in numbers with LoL, he's just stating the obvious on this. It's a free to play game made so a 10 year old can be ranked in the top 5% vs a game you have to purchase that people can play for years and not master. Not to mention we all know Blizzard is likely to never push their games for the competitive scene, in fact they impede some tournaments by requiring them to sign a contract with Blizzard when the prize pool is over 5k. Where as Riot has been throwing money at the scene, i.e. buying the expedition slot at Dreamhack to get their foot in the door last year, and doing whatever they can to force themselves into esports. So I don't see how any of this is news, I'm pretty sure anyone not new to the scene knew where SC2 stands.
Why the hell would he be biased? This makes no sense. Yes these are exaggeration and the not exact figures. The way he presents this makes this quite obvious, but this doesn't change his point, and I you can definitely still be unbiased (which he is) and exaggerate a bit.
On October 20 2012 11:46 pmp10 wrote: Just more fear-mongering from Destiny. I don't get it how can this community be so insecure that a success of any other e-sport game must automatically mean the end of this one. For over a decade various games coexisted in competitive scene but now it seems Destiny declared that there can be only one.
I don't get how you can be so naive, ignorant, and spiteful...
Did you even read the post originally put forth? Did you watch that video in the OP of this thread? Do you have a learning disability, or are you just pretending you understand English?
Destiny's point was NOT that LoL is going to kill SC2...he's saying that if Blizzard doesn't take lessons from what LoL has done right, SC2 is going to get left behind and die a slow death while other games continue to grow.
WHOA, sorry. Did I just make you look stupid?
Sadly I've seen all that drivel that Destiny had to say on the subject and the point stands. The idea the SC2 can be a good casual experience is utter nonsense only beaten in ignorance by the notion that you should ape solutions made for completely different audience and formula. The only point with any sort of validity is that pros and casters have become detached from typical viewer in their wants and needs (more name changes will save SC2) but then not even Destiny would take into consideration that health-bars may be detracting to casuals in viewing experience and now he throws the first stone.
There's no good reasoning backing your statements. I've played like six 1v1 ladder games in SC2 in the last ten months. I have a friend who logs like twenty hours a week in the game just from playing Gem TD while at work.
Why is LoL's audience different from SC2's? Why can't things that work for Riot be things Blizzard can think about? You see...you hate Destiny, you misunderstood it, and now that you've been shown to be wrong, I think you're just making shit up to try to wriggle out of the pickle you're in.
What Destiny said, whatever you may think of him, makes sense. It's reasonable. What you say is full of holes and is filled with assumptions that are impossible to immediately accept.
The point I think you're trying to make (your last two posts don't say much of anything except that Destiny is wrong) is that SC2 doesn't need to change, that we're fine as we are, and that LoL's success both will have no affect on us and that we can learn nothing from it. Is that correct? If not, then I'm sorry, I can only work from what you've written down, I can't extract information directly from your mind.
If you feel that way, then you're wrong. I don't know what else to tell you. SC2 isn't great, HotS looks like shit. The scene is not stable and definitely needs help, and we can ALWAYS learn from the successes of others, ESPECIALLY a game like LoL, which has two key similarities: 1. IT'S A FUCKING COMPUTER GAME, and 2. IT'S BEING PROMOTED AS AN ESPORT.
Different formulas? Different audiences? What the fuck kind of a point are you even trying to make? I'm going to assume you never played BW, because I'd be shocked if you did. See...before the awful shithole that bnet 2.0 is came to be, and before the mediocrity manifested that is SC2 was released, we had this cool game called BW, and this online multiplayer client called Bnet. When you looked at the games being hosted and played on Bnet, which you could get to with one click of the mouse, something like 20% of the games played were actual 1v1 melee games. That's probably being generous. It was likely closer to 10%, if that. Everything else was team games, UMS, and FMPs. It was largely casual players playing all those games. That kept the community alive, it kept people online, and it kept the game fun. Even on iCCup, we'd host UMS maps to unwind after ladder games or intense practice sessions.
We don't need to force people who don't like to ladder into laddering. We don't need to somehow magically revitalize the ladder. People who want to play 1v1 seriously will do it on their own. Those who don't won't, and they shouldn't be coerced into doing it.
Despite that, we need to keep people interested in the game, and it needs to stay relevant. What better way than to keep the game as a UMS hub, just as BW was? Blizzard put in very robust tools for mapmakers to make all kinds of shit, from RPGs to FPSs all in-game. Shit, we even have Bejeweled in SC2. The game doesn't need to be kept alive solely through people actually playing ladder.
I follow the pro scene very closely, and I've been following it for years. I was way past seriously playing BW when SC2 came out, and I'm pretty much over playing that one too. Despite that, I still follow the scene. I guess you could call me a "casual", at this point. While the scene is fortunate in that I will never stop being a viewer because of how long I've been attached to this community, other casuals may not be in such a spot.
All Destiny is saying is to keep SC2 relevant for as many people as possible. He's not saying to compromise the competitive 1v1 aspect of SC2, he's saying to make the UMS, casual side side more robust. If you disagree with that, then you're just being spiteful, and you're shitting on Destiny, not his argument (which, btw, is a logical fallacy).
I agree with what you said. They should give SC2 LAN. There are going to be tons of illegal host, but it keeps the scene alive. DOTA SC2 might even be in existent. The new battle net really screw things up.
On October 21 2012 08:08 Zaurus wrote: sc2 is not popular in SingApore anyway. I am just playing cause I enjoy the challenge. But will probably switch to mmorpg. DOTA types of game are just too boring.
So you would rather grind....that's kind of not exciting imo. Unless the one you want try have crazy PvP action.
Mmorpg is not just about grinding. Is about socializing while teaming up and joking about stuffs.
You can potentially accomplish the same with Dota2.
1. Socializing with friends like "Oh hey Frank, guess what happened in my ecology class today?"
2. Teaming Up, self explanatory.
Joking about stuff, see number 1.
Btw, I know for a fact that the Chinese have made SC2, LAN-able with some sort of hack. Its just a matter of getting permission from Blizzard to use them because we all know how BW turned out with it.
On October 21 2012 08:08 Zaurus wrote: sc2 is not popular in SingApore anyway. I am just playing cause I enjoy the challenge. But will probably switch to mmorpg. DOTA types of game are just too boring.
So you would rather grind....that's kind of not exciting imo. Unless the one you want try have crazy PvP action.
Mmorpg is not just about grinding. Is about socializing while teaming up and joking about stuffs.
You can potentially accomplish the same with Dota2.
1. Socializing with friends like "Oh hey Frank, guess what happened in my ecology class today?"
2. Teaming Up, self explanatory.
Joking about stuff, see number 1.
You are seriously getting too defensive. You can socialize in any game, is where your friends are..... I will like to play games where my real life friends are already in, I am too lazy to pick up another game and to try and form a committee on my own.
On October 21 2012 08:08 Zaurus wrote: sc2 is not popular in SingApore anyway. I am just playing cause I enjoy the challenge. But will probably switch to mmorpg. DOTA types of game are just too boring.
So you would rather grind....that's kind of not exciting imo. Unless the one you want try have crazy PvP action.
Mmorpg is not just about grinding. Is about socializing while teaming up and joking about stuffs.
You can potentially accomplish the same with Dota2.
1. Socializing with friends like "Oh hey Frank, guess what happened in my ecology class today?"
2. Teaming Up, self explanatory.
Joking about stuff, see number 1.
U are seriously getting too defensively. You can socialize in any game, is where your friends are.....
I'm actually trying to help you in some way because prior to that, your thinking process seemed that you think it would be impossible to do all of those things listed in MOBA games or something.
But hey I guess if being chilvarirous means defensive, then so be it.
On October 20 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: I don't think we really need a pro scene. The game won't die (there is no comparable RTS out there), so there will be enough opponents on bnet and there will be streams and high level play even with only 'amateurs' playing. RTS are nerdish games comparable to (partially) chess, i don't think they have real mass-potential. They'll have a stable slowly growing audience and player base, but will not be mainstream ever. soccer > chess . A big plus is that RTS tend to keep long term interest (if blizzard does not decide to simplify Starcraft further). This will make the fan base much more stable which is important long term. I think LOL will peak and fade away. A good, complex RTS will stay. So it is probably not a good idea to make sc2 more simple long term, as you'll get bored once the optimal builds+compositions are figured out. It was a major plus of BW micro-heavy design, that even after 5 years of play, new players and playstyles rose relying on specializing in microing specific units .
On October 20 2012 06:37 IPA wrote: Man I can't wait for the dismal "sky is falling" drama to die off. Giving it a couple weeks because TL loves to think the apocalypse has arrived.
I played WC3 for almost 10 years. Even at the end, there was a small but hardcore group of players. That's all I, personally, need. And I know SC2 will be much larger than that for an extended period of time. I realize my desires don't necessarily coincide with community ambition. I want a hardcore competitive game that challenges me, and I want to be able to play it against 1k-10k people (at least). SC2 provides that, and more.
If casuals want to play a game like LoL - let them. I'll be sniggering and queueing up another ladder game with the hardcore faithful.
Hmm I don't think people like you guys are adding anything but a distraction to this thread. Your underlying bias is that the the pro-scene is irrelevant. Good for you, but Destiny wasn't talking to you and noone who actually cares about the pro-scene cares for this type of opinion.
If you want to know why some of us in the SC2 community care about the pro-scene the reasons range from: -A desire to to broaden the appeal (or simply gain respect) for our hobby to people who aren't interested in it. -A dream of living a life of working hard and getting famous while playing a videogame -The hope of attracting more and more people to the game which would help improve the evolution of the metagame even more than a smaller talent pool would allow. -Having the option to enjoy the game passively when you don't want to invest your time being actively engaged in it.
On October 20 2012 11:44 VanGarde wrote: The most surreal thing is that people are making LoL out to be a successful game because riot is doing everything that Blizzard isn't when in fact from the point of view of the issues we have with sc2, LoL is a HORRIBLE rolemodel. In most regards it is even worse. Whatever LoL's success is from it is NOT from doing things better than Blizzard. Lets review:
Chat channels and the game feeling empty: Well from a chat channels point of view LoL is exactly like sc2. You can have chat channels but they are not apparently obvious and you only get into them if you actually go and find them in much the same way as you do in sc2. There is nothing objectively better with LoL chat system but there are multiple things that are worse. First of all you can't just tab up a chat frame while you are in game like you can in sc2. If you are in game your are reduced to command line message sending which requires you to know the syntax in order to send a message to someone. Unless you already know how to do it you won't figure it out. There is another thing that would have had sc2 players up in arms. Get this, you can obviously put people on ignore just like you can in sc2 but in LoL the players on the enemy team are AUTOMATICALLY set to ignore as default unless you explicitly turn this off yourself. Imagine playing sc2 and you have to go into bnet options and check a box to not make the game autoblock all your opponents.
Custom games: The LoL custom game system just consists of one single browser list containing all currently hosted games, it is really obnoxious to find what you are searching for, there is also no autostart function so if the person who hosted happens to be afk, which is often the case you will wait 10 minutes for a lobby to fill up only to have to leave once everything is full but the game isn't starting. There is also no join as party function you have to coordinate with your buddies to find and join the right game in the list. You can invite someone from your friends list into the game you are in but you can't suggest players so you still need to have everyone that is playing in friends.
LAN support Yes LoL is getting this apparently but the important thing is that it hasn't had LAN support for all of its life time so all of the success it has had has been with the clear assumption that there will be no LAN support. In fact if anything the game is way more unstable than sc2 servers are even though it has gotten better in recent times.
Cross server support On the one hand you can now pay to switch server, I am not sure if you can do this between all servers or not but you can between some. On the downside this came about because Riot split the eu server in two just like that to relieve server balance. This meant that over night all EU players were told, oh btw we are splitting you all up and everyone in this country will be on this server. This effectively killed half of my social interaction in LoL because now I have all my briton friends on one side, and all of my scandinavian friends on one side. You can create an account on any server ofcourse the usefulness of this is reduced by the fact that you need to play so many games to level up and get all of the abilities that you want for competitive play. It is as if you would have to grind games for a month to unlock emp or storm. That only beings to approach the amount of time you need to put in to buy all of the runes and unlock all of the champions that you need to just get your second account relatively playable.
Balance New champions are added on a montly basis more or less and the new champions are almost invariably either terribly UP or horribly OP. They might get hot fixed relatively quickly but there is a lot of volatility in the game balance, way more so than in Starcraft 2.
I am not listing all of these things to bash on LoL, I do play the game myself. But people need to realize that whatever LoL is doing right, it is not all of the things that sc2 fans want from Blizzard. Most of those things are radically worse in LoL and it is not like the community have demanded things from riot for ages that never come to pass. The point of this reply was to illustrate that you are falling too much for the grass always being greener. LoL has many players because it has a low skill floor and because it is easy to get into. The long term replayability is dependent on the constant addition of new champions because god knows the maps doesn't change. It has essentially been played on the same map for all of it's life span. It is not a popular game because it is the apex of game design and interactivity, it is World of Warcraft PvP in Moba form.
Than you this is a very insightful post because I have and I assume others are taking for granted what LoL has done right. Maybe the underlying problems with Starcrafts growth is just the nature of the game itself.
The casual scene is a bunch of stupid under 22 year olds who dont know anything. Any gaming scene is completely toxic because of this mere fact. To hinge your business model on these kids is moronic. People don't play things more because the matchmaking system blows. The internet idiot theory applies here. If there was something that forces the well mannered players to play with each other that would be great.
Part of why I quit sc and league or any other gaming in general because of the immaturity. Its just not worth my time. I'd rather work a second job than play with these kids. Its just not fun. Nothing holds them accountable for their bad behavior. Absolutely nothing.
Solve that first before you complain about the casuals. The casuals are turned off by the environment.
On October 20 2012 05:25 namori wrote: Wow people shunning artosis' passion and siding with someone like destiny who just want more casual players to watch his stream
artosis passion is absolute worthless in that discussion.
On October 20 2012 05:25 namori wrote: Wow people shunning artosis' passion and siding with someone like destiny who just want more casual players to watch his stream
Wow youre being dramatic and prejudicial. Use your head. Youre just blindly infatuated with Artosis because of his stature in the community and blindly hating Destiny because of unrelated past incidences. Try actually listening to what he has to say and you'll probably agree with him.
I like Artosis' passion, thats what makes the pro scene so great. People who care about the game can strive to reach new heights without much motivation other than their love for the game. Thats why there's such a separation between the pros and us casuals and thats what makes the major tournaments so impressive. However, Destiny is absolutely right in that going on and on about the "beauty" of this game does nothing to stop the dwindling of the fan base. Catering balance decisions towards the pro community is great for the legitimacy of the game, but ignoring the casual fan base in the process is just shooting yourself in the foot.
He's always pointing out viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers which is the only thing he wants because he lives off of them. Artosis is caring about the game itself.
I honestly don't care about viewer numbers, I want a great competitive game to watch and play
without viewers the game will die and artosis has to become a lol commentator or go back to normal life.
On October 21 2012 09:01 Phanekim wrote: The casual scene is a bunch of stupid under 22 year olds who dont know anything. Any gaming scene is completely toxic because of this mere fact. To hinge your business model on these kids is moronic. People don't play things more because the matchmaking system blows. The internet idiot theory applies here. If there was something that forces the well mannered players to play with each other that would be great.
What makes 22 the magical number here?
And by this first paragraph here are you sure its OTHERS that are making the scene toxic? Take a look in the mirror fella...
..Destiny is completely right in what he was saying, it's a fairly simple concept to understand..it's just a shame Blizzard can't seem to catch on...getting outdone on every end except their endless money pig...world of warcraft...which they seem to have the most genius marketing team for.
Why play tennis when you can make more from Football, why do sponsors sponsor Tennis when Football is bigger? Destiny argument is completely flaw. LoL will always be bigger because it's just easier for people control 1 unit instead were in Starcraft you need to micro units, handle economy it's just easier and more relaxing playing LoL. End of story.
On October 21 2012 09:07 Trumpstyle wrote: Why play tennis when you can make more from Football, why do sponsors sponsor Tennis when Football is bigger? Destiny argument is completely flaw. LoL will always be bigger because it's just easier for people control 1 unit instead were in Starcraft you need to micro units, handle economy it's just easier and more relaxing playing LoL. End of story.
Because professional gaming is still have negative stigma attached to it.
On October 20 2012 11:44 VanGarde wrote: The most surreal thing is that people are making LoL out to be a successful game because riot is doing everything that Blizzard isn't when in fact from the point of view of the issues we have with sc2, LoL is a HORRIBLE rolemodel. In most regards it is even worse. Whatever LoL's success is from it is NOT from doing things better than Blizzard. Lets review: + Show Spoiler +
Chat channels and the game feeling empty: Well from a chat channels point of view LoL is exactly like sc2. You can have chat channels but they are not apparently obvious and you only get into them if you actually go and find them in much the same way as you do in sc2. There is nothing objectively better with LoL chat system but there are multiple things that are worse. First of all you can't just tab up a chat frame while you are in game like you can in sc2. If you are in game your are reduced to command line message sending which requires you to know the syntax in order to send a message to someone. Unless you already know how to do it you won't figure it out. There is another thing that would have had sc2 players up in arms. Get this, you can obviously put people on ignore just like you can in sc2 but in LoL the players on the enemy team are AUTOMATICALLY set to ignore as default unless you explicitly turn this off yourself. Imagine playing sc2 and you have to go into bnet options and check a box to not make the game autoblock all your opponents.
Custom games: The LoL custom game system just consists of one single browser list containing all currently hosted games, it is really obnoxious to find what you are searching for, there is also no autostart function so if the person who hosted happens to be afk, which is often the case you will wait 10 minutes for a lobby to fill up only to have to leave once everything is full but the game isn't starting. There is also no join as party function you have to coordinate with your buddies to find and join the right game in the list. You can invite someone from your friends list into the game you are in but you can't suggest players so you still need to have everyone that is playing in friends.
LAN support Yes LoL is getting this apparently but the important thing is that it hasn't had LAN support for all of its life time so all of the success it has had has been with the clear assumption that there will be no LAN support. In fact if anything the game is way more unstable than sc2 servers are even though it has gotten better in recent times.
Cross server support On the one hand you can now pay to switch server, I am not sure if you can do this between all servers or not but you can between some. On the downside this came about because Riot split the eu server in two just like that to relieve server balance. This meant that over night all EU players were told, oh btw we are splitting you all up and everyone in this country will be on this server. This effectively killed half of my social interaction in LoL because now I have all my briton friends on one side, and all of my scandinavian friends on one side. You can create an account on any server ofcourse the usefulness of this is reduced by the fact that you need to play so many games to level up and get all of the abilities that you want for competitive play. It is as if you would have to grind games for a month to unlock emp or storm. That only beings to approach the amount of time you need to put in to buy all of the runes and unlock all of the champions that you need to just get your second account relatively playable.
Balance New champions are added on a montly basis more or less and the new champions are almost invariably either terribly UP or horribly OP. They might get hot fixed relatively quickly but there is a lot of volatility in the game balance, way more so than in Starcraft 2.
I am not listing all of these things to bash on LoL, I do play the game myself. But people need to realize that whatever LoL is doing right, it is not all of the things that sc2 fans want from Blizzard. Most of those things are radically worse in LoL and it is not like the community have demanded things from riot for ages that never come to pass. The point of this reply was to illustrate that you are falling too much for the grass always being greener. LoL has many players because it has a low skill floor and because it is easy to get into. The long term replayability is dependent on the constant addition of new champions because god knows the maps doesn't change. It has essentially been played on the same map for all of it's life span. It is not a popular game because it is the apex of game design and interactivity, it is World of Warcraft PvP in Moba form.
LAN is something of a distraction, unless the game is free to play it's understandably not a viable option for blizzard. Netcode improvements, game resume etc can get around much of this and Blizard controlled LAN servers could solve the problems for events... Blizzard should be working their arses off to get these things in place.
The comparission issue isn't that all the flaws in present in SC2 are fixed by the MOBA's, it's that they don't need a nicer UMS/Chat interface etc for the casual scene because the main game is a casual game. It's a team game with a low skill cap. It's safe, it's cosy and it wasn't your fault. The other side of that is the skill cap is a negative for pro scenes (LoL especially), why would pros all switch to a game if any moderately good team has an equal chance of winning any game? It will saturate and those bigger prize pools and sponsorships won't go so far anyway. I don't think the grass is particularly green over there in the long term.
To summarise people like LoL because its free, its easy and its fun to lark about with friends. That feeds the pro scene. The SC2 ladders not really going to be any of these things (definitely shouldn't be easy!) but battlenet and the arcade can and should be that fun place to hang out with friends trying silly games. And it could and should also be the portal to pro and competition streams that the TL side bar is for many of us.
It's because LoL is way easier to get into and have fun. It's free and losers can have fun too via playing with friends against noobs. The casual scene consist of bunch of underage players who are potential buyers of future for sponsors. They are easy to trick into than a grown gamer who knows what they want that's why they are more appealing to the sponsors and that LoL casual scene will only grow because the game is free. You can just try the game even just to see if you like it or not. Sc2 will "never" have that kind of casual scene because it's not free. And it will not be free unless all the expansions are out and blizzard made their profit. They are just trying to find a proper business model to make it f2p but the head guys probably just won't give up on selling the game until expansions are done which will probably be too late for sc2 by then.
The main reason was always the game being free or not and how it is easier to get into or not. The rest is all fixable stuff with time and has no real urgent value. And yes LoL casuals are mostly kids who would not be able to afford the game at all if it was buy 2 play.
On October 21 2012 07:56 Jasiwel wrote: Destiny is absolutely right. The problem with the game is that it's just not very casual and losing is very degrading. It's all about who's better and winning than having fun. What's worse is that to have fun you either need to be good at the mechanics of the game or you need to play someone who isn't as good as you or just as good as you. There is always a loser in the game. You can't have a technical winner because they enjoyed the time they spent ultimately losing. In a game where you lose to Marauder proxies and Zealot Proxies that you really can't stop unless you know for a fact they are there and are happening, how can you really expect any sort of fun?
The Arcade is the real only casual gaming location in SC2 because the actual game is so hyper competitive. If want to have fun with this game and I'm trying to, but when the game is imaged by professional play and balanced based off of professionals rather than aesthetics/casual gaming then you're only inviting professionals who play the game for 15 hours a day as their profession. So SC2 really isn't much of a game to be honest, it's more like a job and casuals are the people being held back in High School because their APM isn't above 100.
I totally agree, but also I wonder, even if Sc2's UI and arcade were fixed so that people could enjoy customs more, would that really make people watch SC2's standard 1v1 multiplayer more? It just seems like two completely different things. I mean for SC Brood war I remember playing 2v2v2v2 BGH, the money maps, evolves and bunker wars when I was a kid, but that didn't translate into me watching brood war matches, I couldn't care less about that because I didn't play it, wasn't good at it, and it was kind of off my radar in general.
The reason people love LoL, most likely, is that the fundamental game itself is really fun. There are no customs (that I'm aware of) with LoL - its just the game that people love, so its a much more natural path that they would also enjoy watching pro-gamers play a game that they love. I can't see the direct link between playing customs in SC2 and watching standard SC2...I mean maybe they'll be willing to try to play standard once in a while because hey its right there, but I remember for Brood War how terrible I was, and decided there's just no reason to try again (even a few years later).
Edit: Anyway that's probably a bit of a tangent, its just another of Destiny's posts was mainly about customs and that's what a lot of people are complaining about. I agree though, SC2 actually needs to be fun to play and not scary
I'm honestly not sure and I don't think anyone can be until those fixes happen for HotS, if they happen in an enjoyable state. The problem with this game is simply that it is incredibly easy to be punished badly for not playing professionally in the mechanics of the game. If you mess up the timing in the beginning of that first Warp Gate, that Cybernetics Core, or even that probe gap between the pylon spawn of that 10/10 supply, the game becomes a struggle to stay alive, let alone win. It won't matter if there is an unranked playlist or an arcade dedicated to 1v1 because losing at this game after a certain point is extremely degrading to one's confidence in playing, not to mention that improving at the game takes so much time to accomplish. Then after that you're sitting there realizing that if you treat SC2 like a game you'll never be able to enjoy it like one. You realize that you've put all of these hours into something that caused you so much anguish and frustration, but really it means nothing because you hardly enjoyed it (even though the reward for winning feels so great) and unless you plan on making tournament wins for cash then you're kind of sacrificing all of that time for naught.
I think WhiteRa put it true in every way when he said that we are not computers, that we are humans, and that you HAVE to keep dedication, watch replays, and keep practicing to actually STAY (let alone improve) in this game. Doing those is a challenge for a casual and that's why people who play this game are trying to be good for some ultra-competitive purpose or because they're good at it or something. It's really hard on casuals like myself because I want to sit back and experiment without feeling exhausted after 5 games of mental beating. There is also the fact that some builds are basically unstoppable unless you have luckily scouted it (like seriously, how do you stop a DT Drop with Warp Prism as Protoss in your base at the 10 minute mark without losing a lot of assets that put you completely behind?) and know exactly what to do to beat it. The game no longer is a game with a bunch of units that can each fight the other in some way or form. It's just a giant rock-paper-scissors match with there being eighty hands.
I do have to say that SC2 can still be extremely fun to watch. MvP versus Squirtle doing the GSL in the summer was basically the best series I have ever seen. It was exciting, suspenseful, and highlighted so many aspects of how players are in so many of the games. Squirtle was behind, MvP got too smug with himself, the series escalated, and it really ended with a flash of controversy players face daily.
As far as LAN not being a feature is concerned as a result of it being "too hard" or "not feasible," that's a complete load of nonsense. LAN has been a feature in nearly every game with multiplayer, even Halo: Combat Evolved had it at a time when the Xbox was completely in question software-wise AND that the game itself barely had it off of a last-second thought, since games as early (or earlier) as Doom/Marathon. This whole conundrum speaks to me as Activision being so big that it doesn't really give a crud about the StarCraft franchise because we all know LAN would significantly improve the game for tournament purposes. There isn't even a dedicated LAN system for the GSL, so frankly it should be obvious that Activision really does not care to fund such a project in the first place.
On October 21 2012 09:07 Trumpstyle wrote: Why play tennis when you can make more from Football, why do sponsors sponsor Tennis when Football is bigger? Destiny argument is completely flaw. LoL will always be bigger because it's just easier for people control 1 unit instead were in Starcraft you need to micro units, handle economy it's just easier and more relaxing playing LoL. End of story.
People play games to have fun. And if a game is easy and relaxing, people will be having fun.
Destiny is right. The casual scene needs a lot of help in SC2. The Arcade needs to be completely re-done, the editor needs to be made easier to use so more people make Custom Games (I'd go back to map making if the editor was similar to WC3) and this will fuel the scene.
And Blizzard needs to have a solid DOTA clone custom game for SC2.
I believe SC2 is a strong game and isn't in any immediate danger of dying.
1) Best and most known RTS 2) 2 years old and still has a solid player base and pro scene 3) upcoming expansion 4) while prizes may be less and the most talented gamers may move elsewhere there will still be people interested in playing at their highest level and competing
There are definitely things that can IMPROVE the experience and overall health of the pro scene. 1) Blizzard should be marketing the shit out of this. I know plenty of competitive gamers who dont play this game( 1 of them was a hardcore age of empires 2 and diablo 2 player who is just ridiculous)
2) Tournaments are sometimes hard to engage with. I cant spend 3 hours a day watching starcraft. I Think a more easily digestible tournament format would help me and many other watch and love competitive play. ***
3) We all agree that the current UI is awful for custom games. We want lobbies. a place where we can meet new people/players/friends. SC2 feels empty, I personally ladder 95% of the time I am online. GLHF and GG is the extent of my communication with other SC2 players.
****Tournaments - the tournament I watch most is NASL for a few reasons. I can watch every week at the same time and catch the same players AWESOME! and Constant games, there isn't downtime between matches because of the way the production is done.
Trying to watch MLG is almost torture. I cant devote an entire weekend, and half the time when i go to the stream on championship Sunday its just a shot of the crowd. I know they are limited by the players needing breaks and casters/on air talent needing breaks but seriously you need to pre-record some stuff to fill in these blanks. Hell play some games from earlier in the tournament or have some casters prepare some tutorials/sportscenter type clips ( and no I'm not interested in the Dr. Pepper makeovers 15 times)
GSL is too early in the morning, and I'm not going to pay when there is plenty of free content.
I know there are more bigger tournaments but I made a point at least
Then there are thousands of smaller tournaments that are over saturating the market. (as a spectator) Its hard for me to pick out what is good to watch and harder yet to find good casters and talented pros.
I actually like the Idea of sportcenter type clips. It would be nice to have a weekly show that is focused around showing clips and talking about the tournaments that week. I occasionally watch SOTG but that rarely seems to be about SC2 play and more about balances/drama/antics. I know this would be a large undertaking and would require many many hours spent watching creating and editing, but i would watch the crap out of it. Especially if it had reruns. Create it on Sunday and air it a few times a day until thursday.
If there is a show out there like this please let me know!
anyways I've rambled on way too long.
TL:DR SC2 will be around for a while
There are things Blizzard needs to do and the community needs to do to make SC2 pro scene STRONGER
Blizzards doesn t even want a lot of players to play starcraft all the time. They want the people to buy the game, thats it, the less player playing after they bought the game, the better for blizzard, because its just producing costs for the server and support. Of course they want the game to be popular, but nowadays there are almost no people buying this game, so they don t need a lot of puplicity. And Hots is somewhat a selfselling product anyway, because most people playing sc2 will buy it anyway. Its not worth to invest a lot of money in publicity just to increase the selling for some percentage.
But for RIOT this is completely different, the more players are playing activly the more of them will buy skins characters and so on. So they will do everything to keep the players active. And imagine if someone totally owns with a char in a tornament, how many people are goin to buy this char after? Thats direct profit for RIOT.
For blizz nothing changes if there is a lot of esports goin on, the people that bought starcraft will watch tornaments, but almost no one will watch tornaments and buy starcraft because of it.
As well you should think about how much does blizzard earn with sc2 and how much does RIOT earn.....bliz once sold sc for about 2 million times. It costs like 60 $ for the customer from this 60 there are about 10 % tax, 30 for the shop selling it, and about 5 $ transport costs, material costs and so on, leaves 15 for blizzard (probably less).
that makes 30 millions. Now discount all the costs for the server the production the support the public work sponsorships ....
they maybe made like 5 millions with it....thats it, they are not earning anything since then. They now can not invest millions into esports, it would just not be profitable.
On October 20 2012 11:46 pmp10 wrote: Just more fear-mongering from Destiny. I don't get it how can this community be so insecure that a success of any other e-sport game must automatically mean the end of this one. For over a decade various games coexisted in competitive scene but now it seems Destiny declared that there can be only one.
I don't get how you can be so naive, ignorant, and spiteful...
Did you even read the post originally put forth? Did you watch that video in the OP of this thread? Do you have a learning disability, or are you just pretending you understand English?
Destiny's point was NOT that LoL is going to kill SC2...he's saying that if Blizzard doesn't take lessons from what LoL has done right, SC2 is going to get left behind and die a slow death while other games continue to grow.
WHOA, sorry. Did I just make you look stupid?
Sadly I've seen all that drivel that Destiny had to say on the subject and the point stands. The idea the SC2 can be a good casual experience is utter nonsense only beaten in ignorance by the notion that you should ape solutions made for completely different audience and formula. The only point with any sort of validity is that pros and casters have become detached from typical viewer in their wants and needs (more name changes will save SC2) but then not even Destiny would take into consideration that health-bars may be detracting to casuals in viewing experience and now he throws the first stone.
There's no good reasoning backing your statements. I've played like six 1v1 ladder games in SC2 in the last ten months. I have a friend who logs like twenty hours a week in the game just from playing Gem TD while at work.
Why is LoL's audience different from SC2's? Why can't things that work for Riot be things Blizzard can think about? You see...you hate Destiny, you misunderstood it, and now that you've been shown to be wrong, I think you're just making shit up to try to wriggle out of the pickle you're in.
What Destiny said, whatever you may think of him, makes sense. It's reasonable. What you say is full of holes and is filled with assumptions that are impossible to immediately accept.
The point I think you're trying to make (your last two posts don't say much of anything except that Destiny is wrong) is that SC2 doesn't need to change, that we're fine as we are, and that LoL's success both will have no affect on us and that we can learn nothing from it. Is that correct? If not, then I'm sorry, I can only work from what you've written down, I can't extract information directly from your mind.
If you feel that way, then you're wrong. I don't know what else to tell you. SC2 isn't great, HotS looks like shit. The scene is not stable and definitely needs help, and we can ALWAYS learn from the successes of others, ESPECIALLY a game like LoL, which has two key similarities: 1. IT'S A FUCKING COMPUTER GAME, and 2. IT'S BEING PROMOTED AS AN ESPORT.
Different formulas? Different audiences? What the fuck kind of a point are you even trying to make? I'm going to assume you never played BW, because I'd be shocked if you did. See...before the awful shithole that bnet 2.0 is came to be, and before the mediocrity manifested that is SC2 was released, we had this cool game called BW, and this online multiplayer client called Bnet. When you looked at the games being hosted and played on Bnet, which you could get to with one click of the mouse, something like 20% of the games played were actual 1v1 melee games. That's probably being generous. It was likely closer to 10%, if that. Everything else was team games, UMS, and FMPs. It was largely casual players playing all those games. That kept the community alive, it kept people online, and it kept the game fun. Even on iCCup, we'd host UMS maps to unwind after ladder games or intense practice sessions.
We don't need to force people who don't like to ladder into laddering. We don't need to somehow magically revitalize the ladder. People who want to play 1v1 seriously will do it on their own. Those who don't won't, and they shouldn't be coerced into doing it.
Despite that, we need to keep people interested in the game, and it needs to stay relevant. What better way than to keep the game as a UMS hub, just as BW was? Blizzard put in very robust tools for mapmakers to make all kinds of shit, from RPGs to FPSs all in-game. Shit, we even have Bejeweled in SC2. The game doesn't need to be kept alive solely through people actually playing ladder.
I follow the pro scene very closely, and I've been following it for years. I was way past seriously playing BW when SC2 came out, and I'm pretty much over playing that one too. Despite that, I still follow the scene. I guess you could call me a "casual", at this point. While the scene is fortunate in that I will never stop being a viewer because of how long I've been attached to this community, other casuals may not be in such a spot.
All Destiny is saying is to keep SC2 relevant for as many people as possible. He's not saying to compromise the competitive 1v1 aspect of SC2, he's saying to make the UMS, casual side side more robust. If you disagree with that, then you're just being spiteful, and you're shitting on Destiny, not his argument (which, btw, is a logical fallacy).
I agree with what you said. They should give SC2 LAN. There are going to be tons of illegal host, but it keeps the scene alive. DOTA SC2 might even be in existent. The new battle net really screw things up.
This topic seems quite redundant to me and it lets Destiny shine in some very shady light. His insistence on profitability in SCII in combination with his partly switch to LoL makes him an extremely biased figure. I would even go as far as imply that he has an interest to actually hurt the SCII pro scene as he cannont expect any more money out of it but promotes LoL as it is going to be his new "employer". To be honest Destiny is as far from winning a 100k SCII tournament as he can possibly get. So what does he actually care?
As a response to his statements I can only quote the posting I wrote in the last thread.
Quite an interesting topic although it seems to be discussed from a completely distorted point of view: namely a capitalistic viewpoint. Who says that there has to be a huge SC2 Scene with lots of paying sponsors and tournaments with prize money in the millions? StarCraft players should not mainly be driven by greed or financial interest but by an inherent will to improve in a discipline without hoping for any reward whatsoever -simply because they enjoy it - and tournament viewers should mainly consist out of people rejoicing in the competition and admiring the competitors skillwise. Instead of pushing and forcing SC2 in the shape of a profitable format why don't the people who like the game for being a competitive discipline simply play it to increase their skill or watch tournaments of skilled players and everybody who is in for the money just leaves? StarCraft is never going to be a social gathering or a streamlined cashcow. It is a highly demanding and low rewarding skill requiring 1v1 discipline. If sponsors run away because of bad RoI it's a good thing in my opinion as those people who see StarCraft as a way to earn money leave and those who play for the sake of competition stay.
Who says there have to be paid full-time SC2 players? In my opinion SC2 is far bettter off with people playing it as a hobby and tournaments being hosted for the sake of competition by fans and amateur community figures. Streaming has never been easier and somebody who hosts a tournament in his free time won't have any problem finding competitors for his tournament and people willing to view it. Going back to the roots and having a small hardcore community of die-hard fans willing to invest time in their hobby without expecting any reward whatsoever is the way to have a stable and sustainable community.
In my opinion SC2 has never profited of people expecting a reward for their interest. People like Destiny, MaximusBlack or Lindsay Sporrer who do not even seem to enjoy the game but take it as some kind of job are "destroying SC2". If Destiny does not enjoy SC2 the way it is why does he still play it and participates in the scene? He was one of the first streaming for money and expecting to make a living out of StarCraft without actually being an outstanding contestant who has ever shown his superiority in a tournament. Instead he has churned the community up numerous times with mischief completely unrelated to SC2.
If the "death of SC2" means an exodus of gold diggers and capitalists I will gladly lay SC2 to rest.
Does League have tournaments running every minute of every day? I haven't been hyped for any SC2 tournament for a long time because the same content is available pretty much all the time. Besides, SC2 is as popular as a complex game is going to get. People love league because it's so simple and laid out for you. I'm willing to bet most league players wouldn't play more than one game of SC2 without getting frustrated and quitting. Personally, I think it sets a bad precedent for developers because I don't want people seeing League's success and emulating it by making overly simplistic feel good games.
As well you should think about how much does blizzard earn with sc2 and how much does RIOT earn.....bliz once sold sc for about 2 million times. It costs like 60 $ for the customer from this 60 there are about 10 % tax, 30 for the shop selling it, and about 5 $ transport costs, material costs and so on, leaves 15 for blizzard (probably less).
that makes 30 millions. Now discount all the costs for the server the production the support the public work sponsorships ....
they maybe made like 5 millions with it....thats it, they are not earning anything since then. They now can not invest millions into esports, it would just not be profitable.
You have no idea how the retail price is distributed. 30 for the shop? They wish. Profit margins on things like games are really low for retailers. $5 transport costs? Perhaps if you ship each box individually from Blizzard HQ. But once you bundle things in larger shipments, the transport costs per unit drop dramatically.
The profit margin for Blizzard is much higher than you think it is.
On October 21 2012 09:07 Trumpstyle wrote: Why play tennis when you can make more from Football, why do sponsors sponsor Tennis when Football is bigger? Destiny argument is completely flaw. LoL will always be bigger because it's just easier for people control 1 unit instead were in Starcraft you need to micro units, handle economy it's just easier and more relaxing playing LoL. End of story.
People play games to have fun. And if a game is easy and relaxing, people will be having fun.
Destiny is right. The casual scene needs a lot of help in SC2. The Arcade needs to be completely re-done, the editor needs to be made easier to use so more people make Custom Games (I'd go back to map making if the editor was similar to WC3) and this will fuel the scene.
And Blizzard needs to have a solid DOTA clone custom game for SC2.
I agree with you, except custom games and arcade won't help the casual scene. SC2 is just a very, very hard game and LoL is not nearly as hard to play casually. Like others have said previously, I do not see how people playing custom maps casually translates into them watching pros play 1v1. Also, even custom games are hard. No matter what, he who is faster/micros better wins.
On October 21 2012 09:35 Gentso wrote: Does League have tournaments running every minute of every day? I haven't been hyped for any SC2 tournament for a long time because the same content is available pretty much all the time. Besides, SC2 is as popular as a complex game is going to get. People love league because it's so simple and laid out for you. I'm willing to bet most league players wouldn't play more than one game of SC2 without getting frustrated and quitting. Personally, I think it sets a bad precedent for developers because I don't want people seeing League's success and emulating it by making overly simplistic feel good games.
A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both.
A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth.
On October 21 2012 09:07 Trumpstyle wrote: Why play tennis when you can make more from Football, why do sponsors sponsor Tennis when Football is bigger? Destiny argument is completely flaw. LoL will always be bigger because it's just easier for people control 1 unit instead were in Starcraft you need to micro units, handle economy it's just easier and more relaxing playing LoL. End of story.
People play games to have fun. And if a game is easy and relaxing, people will be having fun.
Destiny is right. The casual scene needs a lot of help in SC2. The Arcade needs to be completely re-done, the editor needs to be made easier to use so more people make Custom Games (I'd go back to map making if the editor was similar to WC3) and this will fuel the scene.
And Blizzard needs to have a solid DOTA clone custom game for SC2.
I agree with you, except custom games and arcade won't help the casual scene. SC2 is just a very, very hard game and LoL is not nearly as hard to play casually. Like others have said previously, I do not see how people playing custom maps casually translates into them watching pros play 1v1. Also, even custom games are hard. No matter what, he who is faster/micros better wins.
You might be surprised by how many league of legend players who only play low level normals and co-op vs AI watch progames. People like having idols, admiring people. Also, perhaps after a casual spends a month playing fun custom games, he becomes interested in playing the game for real? Really ... Just why do people think casuals don't matter. Do you think all the 500k+ viewers of League of Legends are aspiring progamers? Get real.
I've got to admit Destiny has made very valid points. But, let me look back into my own personal experiences that could be relevant.
I played a TON of WC3 in the many many custom games having no idea whatsoever that there was even a professional circuit for 1v1. I sunk hours and hours into that game without having a clue.
When I got into SC2 it was during the beta, when I was watching HD and Husky doing the HDH Invitational, which then lead me to discover BW pro scene. That all inspired me to play ranked 1v1 matches and to this day I've yet to play a custom game for SC2.
But honestly I don't really think the game is all that setup for thousands of random people to get into watching 1v1 on a pro scene. At least not in the West. Look at BW it was absolutely MASSIVE, but only in Korea. With a small but hardcore following in the West.
It could honestly just be that we've met saturation for the RTS style games. Clearly we're missing the mark in Korea with what 25% of Koreans playing LoL. It might not be that we're dying, but that we've reached our stable population of viewers?
On October 21 2012 09:51 Shikyo wrote: You might be surprised by how many league of legend players who only play low level normals and co-op vs AI watch progames. People like having idols, admiring people. Also, perhaps after a casual spends a month playing fun custom games, he becomes interested in playing the game for real? Really ... Just why do people think casuals don't matter. Do you think all the 500k+ viewers of League of Legends are aspiring progamers? Get real.
Maybe not but I for one am not too interested in getting the bottom half of the League community onto Starcraft 2 anyway. There is a lot of depth to any game, LoL too but comparing it to Starcraft is like comparing tic tac toe to chess. Starcraft is much harder and has way more depth. People need to accept that Starcraft will not attract the majority of gamers, just like Broodwar did not attract the majority of gamers. We can do more to make it easier for new people to get into the game but when it comes down to it, it is a game that is tough to play and to improve at and a lot of people don't want that or are able to do that. I personally am fine with sc2 being a more elitist game that does not pander to everyone. As long as it is big enough to sustain an e-sports scene that e-sports scene does not have to be the biggest or the dominating one. While ums might increase the player pool, the only way to really increase the player pool to compete with simpleton games like LoL is to dumb down the game severely and doing that would make it stop being the game that all of the rest of us want to play.
Seems kinda unfair to compare a 60$ game to a free to play one and then assume they will have the same viewerbasis. There are so many people playing LoL because there is no entrybarrier.
Wow Destiny is so spot on in that video. I agree with everything he said.
Some arguments I've heard against his point is that Brood War wasn't really casual friendly and it did fine with it's focus on the competitive side of the game.
What this argument fails to understand is that it only really did fine in terms of longevity in Korea. Outside of Korea MOST people stopped playing it except for readers like us who go to sites like Team Liquid.
Another area where that argument fails is that it doesn't take into account the fact that the gaming world has changed a lot since then. Remember back in the day when Doom had a tournament for a Ferrari? These days there is no way in hell that can happen, as the majority of gamers aren't looking for a game that is that hardcore. In the age of people playing games on Facebook and mobile phones/tablets, that type of game just can't attract the same amount of attention compared to something like League of Legends.
His analogy of VHS vs Beta was insightful. Right now SC2 is the Beta tape. League of Legends is VHS. Beta is far more technically advanced than VHS. SC2 is incredibly "beautiful" at the extreme competitive end of the game and metagame as Artosis puts it.
But that won't matter at all if something less beautiful, less technically advanced, but much more popular comes along.
And today games like LOL and DOTA2 are already here. Blizzard needs to realize this. It's not the same playing field as the Brood War days any more.
I don't get the problem. So following the general development of the gaming scene everyone wants angry birds to be their esport of choice in the near future and well so be it - can't really change that anyways. I haven't stumbled over one idea on how the fuck Blizzard is supposed to come even remotely close to copying the general success of LoL and don't give me a couple ui changes and custom maps. It's just the right moment to accept that the times have changed and move on.
On October 21 2012 10:19 tubs wrote: Wow Destiny is so spot on in that video. I agree with everything he said.
Some arguments I've heard against his point is that Brood War wasn't really casual friendly and it did fine with it's focus on the competitive side of the game.
What this argument fails to understand is that it only really did fine in terms of longevity in Korea. Outside of Korea MOST people stopped playing it except for readers like us who go to sites like Team Liquid.
Another area where that argument fails is that it doesn't take into account the fact that the gaming world has changed a lot since then. Remember back in the day when Doom had a tournament for a Ferrari? These days there is no way in hell that can happen, as the majority of gamers aren't looking for a game that is that hardcore. In the age of people playing games on Facebook and mobile phones/tablets, that type of game just can't attract the same amount of attention compared to something like League of Legends.
His analogy of VHS vs Beta was insightful. Right now SC2 is the Beta tape. League of Legends is VHS. Beta is far more technically advanced than VHS. SC2 is incredibly "beautiful" at the extreme competitive end of the game and metagame as Artosis puts it.
But that won't matter at all if something less beautiful, less technically advanced, but much more popular comes along.
And today games like LOL and DOTA2 are already here. Blizzard needs to realize this. It's not the same playing field as the Brood War days any more.
Another thing to note that BW is pretty much more or less the same product model as LoL/DotA2 as it is essentially Free-to-Play.
A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both.
A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth.
Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game.
I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2.
1) they die to insanely strong and effective early all-ins 2) or they spend 15 minutes macroing only to lose their army in 6 seconds in a ball vs. ball engagement
On October 21 2012 10:56 jdsowa wrote: Think of what happens when casuals play SC2:
1) they die to insanely strong and effective early all-ins 2) or they spend 15 minutes macroing only to lose their army in 6 seconds in a ball vs. ball engagement
Why would they come back and play this game?
Pretty much. I absolutely love this game. Since I picked up SC2 no game has lasted more than a month, I always go back to SC2. But lets' face it, this game is hard as hell to play. I had some friends into it but after them repeatedly getting crushed in bronze league by 6pools and stupid stuff they just gave up, and I can't blame them. It is hard for SC2 to ever compare to LoL; I'm not really sure it can even be fixed.
On October 21 2012 09:07 Trumpstyle wrote: Why play tennis when you can make more from Football, why do sponsors sponsor Tennis when Football is bigger? Destiny argument is completely flaw. LoL will always be bigger because it's just easier for people control 1 unit instead were in Starcraft you need to micro units, handle economy it's just easier and more relaxing playing LoL. End of story.
People play games to have fun. And if a game is easy and relaxing, people will be having fun.
Destiny is right. The casual scene needs a lot of help in SC2. The Arcade needs to be completely re-done, the editor needs to be made easier to use so more people make Custom Games (I'd go back to map making if the editor was similar to WC3) and this will fuel the scene.
And Blizzard needs to have a solid DOTA clone custom game for SC2.
I agree with you, except custom games and arcade won't help the casual scene. SC2 is just a very, very hard game and LoL is not nearly as hard to play casually. Like others have said previously, I do not see how people playing custom maps casually translates into them watching pros play 1v1. Also, even custom games are hard. No matter what, he who is faster/micros better wins.
You might be surprised by how many league of legend players who only play low level normals and co-op vs AI watch progames. People like having idols, admiring people. Also, perhaps after a casual spends a month playing fun custom games, he becomes interested in playing the game for real? Really ... Just why do people think casuals don't matter. Do you think all the 500k+ viewers of League of Legends are aspiring progamers? Get real. [/QUOTE]
I didn't say they wanted to be pro gamers, I was arguing that you need casual players that can identify with what is streaming. People that play vs AI or just low lvl games with buddies in LoL feel like they are playing like the pros. In SC2 I do not know anyone that wants to just get on and play 1v1 against the AI.
A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both.
A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth.
Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game.
I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2.
Man this come off as so ignorant, you label league a simplistic game lacking any depth like 100 other people on TL here and don't even go into any detail because it's painfully obvious the most time you spent with the game was less than 30 minutes. Are you some expert who can make judgements or generalizations without providing any support as you have just done?
Gamers can't handle your game? That's you excuse for why SC2 can't attract players like LoL? Heh, I don't think this requires any refutation just reading the statement is enough to dismiss it immediately. I think the horrible trend you are noticing is that hardcore gamers have become a minority to casuals as games have become more popular with the mainstream; gamers themselves have not changed, it's not "they can't handle it", it's the majority of gamers are looking for something different than SC2 gasp. It's not realistic to think that someone coming into PC gaming for the first time is ready to devote all his time to SC2 to get to a level where he can even play the game. SC2 has done a terrible job creating an environment for casuals to enjoy, not "people can't handle the game" it's blizzard job to fix that.
A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both.
A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth.
Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game.
I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2.
Man this come off as so ignorant, you label league a simplistic game lacking any depth like 100 other people on TL here and don't even go into any detail because it's painfully obvious the most time you spent with the game was less than 30 minutes. Are you some expert who can make judgements or generalizations without providing any support as you have just done?
Gamers can't handle your game? That's you excuse for why SC2 can't attract players like LoL? Heh, I don't think this requires any refutation just reading the statement is enough to dismiss it immediately.
I will defend both of you here. First, LoL has a lot of depth at high-level play, so DonKey you are right there. That said, SC2 has a massive amount of depth/multi-tasking to play even in bronze league; I think that is what Gentso was (rightfully) saying. It is very hard for a casual player to stick with SC2 because the level of multitasking and sheer APM required is just phenomenal.
I started off playing customs and single player in BW for years before eventually getting into 1v1. Casuals are the lifeblood of the scene and really need to be encouraged. Starting off RTS'ing in ranked 1v1 is not that appealing.
The Korean scene basically developed from grass-roots casual play (Hunters ffa's, FMP's and other non-ranked team games) so that there was a huge amount of support for the progamers once they emerged. SC2 and Blizzard seem to be trying to engineer the same phenomenon but are going the complete wrong way about it.
A lot of you who never played BW don't seem to understand that literally 90% of the people playing it only touched maps like BGH (a 2v2v2v2 map) and UMS games.
There were literally entire communities devoted to some ums games like helms deep/bounds/diplo/snipers/etc/etc. Hell, I knew several people that exclusively played 3v3 Zero Clutter no rush map max the entire day. And keep in mind I didn't even play in BW's young days when even more people were on.
If Blizzard had some sense they would start working to fix this because anyone with a brain can see that sc2 will die at the rate things are going. It's just not a game that people want to come back to. They'll quit once and comeback a little while later and immediately realize why they quit and leave for good.
On October 21 2012 11:42 Seiferz wrote: A lot of you who never played BW don't seem to understand that literally 90% of the people playing it only touched maps like BGH (a 2v2v2v2 map) and UMS games.
There were literally entire communities devoted to some ums games like helms deep/bounds/diplo/snipers/etc/etc. Hell, I knew several people that exclusively played 3v3 Zero Clutter no rush map max the entire day. And keep in mind I didn't even play in BW's young days when even more people were on.
If Blizzard had some sense they would start working to fix this because anyone with a brain can see that sc2 will die at the rate things are going. It's just not a game that people want to come back to. They'll quit once and comeback a little while later and immediately realize why they quit and leave for good.
Diplo!!! That was my game for years!! Ah the nostalgia
I really think the notion that a significant number of people go from custom/ums to 1v1 in sc2 needs to be challenged. We have how many years of starcraft+warcraft3+starcraft 2 now? The reason I question the notion is that I have never seen anything but the opposite of it in my own interactions with players. There are competitive players and non competitive players. I think while there are exceptions, the norm is NOT that people move between these categories. Non competitive players are the guys who play only coop vs ai or ums because they don't want to play against other people, they are afraid of losing etc. Now I grant that sc2 during beta did a fantastic job of luring people who were not competitive over to the competitive side. This was done I would say singlehandedly by Day9 and hd/husky. They appealed to the non competitive players while marketing 1v1 competitive play to them and it attracted a lot of people over. However in reality how often do people really transition from custom and ums to 1v1? Nearly none of my friends have ever played 1v1 in rts games going all the way back to broodwar. They are just afraid of losing and they don't want that feeling so they play sc2 for ums. I can bet my life savings on that these guys will never ever play 1v1, there is a like a mental barrier there that makes it a completely different game. LoL is a much much easier game so most non competitive players can still enjoy it casually. You can't really make 1v1 sc2 easy to get into though without ruining the game itself. The good news is that all of these guys who play ums do watch competitive sc2. But they did not get into that through their interest in ums and customs, they got into that through people marketing sc2 as an e-sport too them. The game might attract a few more e-sport viewers by expanding the "casual" market but in reality the payback on investment will be 50 times greater if you invest that effort into e-sports productions, content and marketing instead.
1,000,000 dollars for the team that won. That's 200,000 dollars for each person on the team that won... MC, MVP, and NesTea made less then that in their entire Starcraft2 career, combined (From prize money; not including salaries). There are people who get 20,000 to 30,000 viewers daily. That's more then ALL the Starcraft2 streamers featured on TL during peak hours. Only time when Starcraft2 beats the individual LoL streams is when there is a tournament.
Also, there is this which makes playing League of Legends that much more appealing.
In season three, which is our next season, and it will follow our World Championships in October, the champion of the series, which is in a professional league, is going to have salaries. The salaries are there to cover the basic cost of living for players, and they’re going to be augmented by stipends that cover things like travel and housing, which is all meant to compliment the sponsor revenue players can make and the cash prizes for the tournament. All of that combined makes being a professional “League of Legends” player a viable career opportunity. This helps the game reach its full potential, because we want to avoid our pro players coming under financial stress and having to hold down part-time jobs. We want to make it so being a pro player is a completely viable career opportunity.
They should add casual mode to SC2. Just a fun map with faster mineral mining, maybe slower speed or changed speed. They should also patch some of the stupid things that just lead to frustration, like 3 pylon block.
1,000,000 dollars for the team that won. That's 200,000 dollars for each person on the team that won... MC, MVP, and NesTea made less then that in their entire Starcraft2 career, combined (From prize money; not including salaries). There are people who get 20,000 to 30,000 viewers daily. That's more then ALL the Starcraft2 streamers featured on TL during peak hours. Only time when Starcraft2 beats the individual LoL streams is when there is a tournament.
Also, there is this which makes playing League of Legends that much more appealing.
In season three, which is our next season, and it will follow our World Championships in October, the champion of the series, which is in a professional league, is going to have salaries. The salaries are there to cover the basic cost of living for players, and they’re going to be augmented by stipends that cover things like travel and housing, which is all meant to compliment the sponsor revenue players can make and the cash prizes for the tournament. All of that combined makes being a professional “League of Legends” player a viable career opportunity. This helps the game reach its full potential, because we want to avoid our pro players coming under financial stress and having to hold down part-time jobs. We want to make it so being a pro player is a completely viable career opportunity.
NBA players and European Football players earn massively higher salaries than NHL players, both of the previous two sports also enjoy way higher viewer ratings, yet oddly enough people still play hockey. The world is funny sometimes.
I hope that LoL keeps growing. I am convinced that LoL growing is beneficial to Starcraft 2. Anything that grows e-sports will be good for all popular e-sports games. Starcraft 2 pretty much built the current e-sports industry. Don't get me wrong there were e-sports in the west before sc2 but there was not a lucrative market. The market exploded with sc2 and the foundations were laid. Because of those foundations LoL was then able to get to where it is now. If Sc2 had not expanded the market and proved that e-sports could enjoy stable viewer numbers then LoL would not be growing now. Likewise the growth of LoL can be just as beneficial to Starcraft 2. Why is everyone so god damn afraid?
People enjoy rts, and people enjoy moba's and people enjoy fps games. Just like some people enjoy hockey and some basketball. This notion that 100% of all good players will always play whichever game is currently playing the highest price money is just ridiculous.
Destiny is spot on here. I like SC2 much more than LoL (I play both) but LoL is more casual friendly, and that's why my friends stop playing SC2 and start playing LoL. Blizzard needs to do a better job getting casuals involved.
On October 21 2012 13:53 Savagewood wrote: Destiny is spot on here. I like SC2 much more than LoL (I play both) but LoL is more casual friendly, and that's why my friends stop playing SC2 and start playing LoL. Blizzard needs to do a better job getting casuals involved.
Starcraft 2 is just not a casual kind of game, it can't be without losing the vast majority of the others who play it. Don't give me ums because that is not the same. 1v1 sc2 can't be as casual as LoL nor should it ever be.
1,000,000 dollars for the team that won. That's 200,000 dollars for each person on the team that won... MC, MVP, and NesTea made less then that in their entire Starcraft2 career, combined (From prize money; not including salaries). There are people who get 20,000 to 30,000 viewers daily. That's more then ALL the Starcraft2 streamers featured on TL during peak hours. Only time when Starcraft2 beats the individual LoL streams is when there is a tournament.
Also, there is this which makes playing League of Legends that much more appealing.
In season three, which is our next season, and it will follow our World Championships in October, the champion of the series, which is in a professional league, is going to have salaries. The salaries are there to cover the basic cost of living for players, and they’re going to be augmented by stipends that cover things like travel and housing, which is all meant to compliment the sponsor revenue players can make and the cash prizes for the tournament. All of that combined makes being a professional “League of Legends” player a viable career opportunity. This helps the game reach its full potential, because we want to avoid our pro players coming under financial stress and having to hold down part-time jobs. We want to make it so being a pro player is a completely viable career opportunity.
NBA players and European Football players earn massively higher salaries than NHL players, both of the previous two sports also enjoy way higher viewer ratings, yet oddly enough people still play hockey. The world is funny sometimes.
I hope that LoL keeps growing. I am convinced that LoL growing is beneficial to Starcraft 2. Anything that grows e-sports will be good for all popular e-sports games. Starcraft 2 pretty much built the current e-sports industry. Don't get me wrong there were e-sports in the west before sc2 but there was not a lucrative market. The market exploded with sc2 and the foundations were laid. Because of those foundations LoL was then able to get to where it is now. If Sc2 had not expanded the market and proved that e-sports could enjoy stable viewer numbers then LoL would not be growing now. Likewise the growth of LoL can be just as beneficial to Starcraft 2. Why is everyone so god damn afraid?
You know what is even stranger? The viewer count for Starcraft2 tournaments have been declining but league of legends has been increasing. That's weird right?
Can't believe you are comparing sports to a video game. With sports you just need friends and a ball, and they can be played at all ages and enjoyed by EVERYONE! While video games require expensive computers, expensive internet connections, and expensive games which most can't afford or even care about in the first place. Also, you can't play hockey year round, and you can't even play it at all in most areas around the world. Please stop trying to use analogies.
1,000,000 dollars for the team that won. That's 200,000 dollars for each person on the team that won... MC, MVP, and NesTea made less then that in their entire Starcraft2 career, combined (From prize money; not including salaries). There are people who get 20,000 to 30,000 viewers daily. That's more then ALL the Starcraft2 streamers featured on TL during peak hours. Only time when Starcraft2 beats the individual LoL streams is when there is a tournament.
Also, there is this which makes playing League of Legends that much more appealing.
In season three, which is our next season, and it will follow our World Championships in October, the champion of the series, which is in a professional league, is going to have salaries. The salaries are there to cover the basic cost of living for players, and they’re going to be augmented by stipends that cover things like travel and housing, which is all meant to compliment the sponsor revenue players can make and the cash prizes for the tournament. All of that combined makes being a professional “League of Legends” player a viable career opportunity. This helps the game reach its full potential, because we want to avoid our pro players coming under financial stress and having to hold down part-time jobs. We want to make it so being a pro player is a completely viable career opportunity.
NBA players and European Football players earn massively higher salaries than NHL players, both of the previous two sports also enjoy way higher viewer ratings, yet oddly enough people still play hockey. The world is funny sometimes.
I hope that LoL keeps growing. I am convinced that LoL growing is beneficial to Starcraft 2. Anything that grows e-sports will be good for all popular e-sports games. Starcraft 2 pretty much built the current e-sports industry. Don't get me wrong there were e-sports in the west before sc2 but there was not a lucrative market. The market exploded with sc2 and the foundations were laid. Because of those foundations LoL was then able to get to where it is now. If Sc2 had not expanded the market and proved that e-sports could enjoy stable viewer numbers then LoL would not be growing now. Likewise the growth of LoL can be just as beneficial to Starcraft 2. Why is everyone so god damn afraid?
You know what is even stranger? The viewer count for Starcraft2 tournaments have been declining but league of legends has been increasing. That's weird right?
Can't believe you are comparing sports to a video game. With sports you just need friends and a ball, and they can be played at all ages and enjoyed by EVERYONE! While video games require expensive computers, expensive internet connections, and expensive games which most can't afford or even care about in the first place. Also, you can't play hockey year round, and you can't even play it at all in most areas around the world. Please stop trying to use analogies.
The analogies are perfectly fitting, don't be intentionally dense by pointing out that sc2 is not hockey because you don't use a stick. That is the point of an analogy to draw similarities between things that can be related in some way but are not the same. The analogy is true because of the world operated the way you seem to think it does, all but the biggest sports would decline because the sponsors would choose NBA over NHL due to it's higher viewer count. I say that not all kids when they pick a sport do it based on how much money they can earn as a top tier professional, kids will play what they enjoy in fact most kids who are into sports play several sports and then eventually go for one of them. I am fairly certain that the same is true for games.
Interesting though that you are soo caught up in this that you can acknowledge that sc2 numbers have declined but you are incapable of conceiving that LoL numbers could do the same. LoL is going through the same kind of expansion right now that Sc2 did two years ago, but somehow everyone believes that LoL clearly cannot possible be subject to the same kinds of trends. I guess the art of rational and objective thinking is just mostly lost on this generation. The growth of LoL is very clearly infinite.
But yeah you are right, in a year there will be no sc2 tournaments, all of the pro's and all players will be playing LoL instead because you can earn a few hundred k more if you are the best player in the world. I guess the world was black and white after all who could have figured.
Realize that it is important where viewers come from btw. There is a huge difference between LoL having 1 million viewers that used to view sc2 but switched to watching LoL. And LoL having 1 million new e-sports viewers that did not previously watch sc2. I think it is safe to say that most likely most of their viewers are new e-sports fans. They might have shared viewers with sc2 where you have people who watch sc2 and now also watch LoL. But there is not a problem unless viewers are actually switching games.
If LoL gets 800k new e-sports fans to the scene that is great, we should welcome those because those 800k are now also potential sc2 viewers in the future.
The principle reason for VHS winning was the tapes record an entire movie in 1 sitting with no one near the TV set to change tapes. The longest recording time for a "Betamax" was only 60 minutes. To record a movie somone would always have to be nearby to change the tapes.
and then during play back on the "Sony Betamax" you'd have to switch tapes right in the middle of the movie. The way teh VHS and Betamax worked back in the 70s that was like a 30 second process of manual labour... you could not remotely change tapes.. you had to get off your chair and change these giant tapes.
but anyway...
On October 21 2012 13:58 Urasim wrote: . With sports you just need friends and a ball, and they can be played at all ages and enjoyed by EVERYONE! While video games require expensive computers, expensive internet connections, and expensive games which most can't afford or even care about in the first place. Also, you can't play hockey year round, and you can't even play it at all in most areas around the world. Please stop trying to use analogies.
Hockey is more expensive to play than Starcraft2.
the most profitable pro hockey team on the planet is hosted in a city where a far higher percentage of kids have a computer with a crappy 2 year old video card that can play Starcraft2. but they can't afford to play hockey.
try again.
NFL Football is 1 of the most popular and high paying sports and yet parents steer their kids away from it because of all the head injuries.
Stating no one will play SC2 because it does not have some giant huge fan base is silly. Games like Intellivision Utopia, EA M.U.L.E. and EA NHL '94 Hockey have had a hard core competitive scene with a cult like following for DECADES with ZERO support from the publisher.
i'll say that again for emphasis: DECADES
any time you're up for a game of Utopia i'll go over the pros and cons of a the Fishing Boat/Fort opening when your opponent goes early PT Boat.
The point is that Starcraft2 will not die unless Blizzard kills it, but the competitive scene can and will die if the viewer base dies. Viewer base die > sponsors leave(can't make money without the viewers!) > can't send people to events > no tournament prize pools > no one is interested > the next game Blizzard makes isn't popular because the last one died > Starcraft dies as a RTS because Blizzard makes it a MMO to make money.
On October 21 2012 14:46 Urasim wrote: Derailing like a champ, VanGarde.
The point is that Starcraft2 will not die unless Blizzard kills it, but the competitive scene can and will die if the viewer base dies. Viewer base die > sponsors leave(can't make money without the viewers!) > can't send people to events > no tournament prize pools > no one is interested > the next game Blizzard makes isn't popular because the last one died > Starcraft dies as a RTS because Blizzard makes it a MMO to make money.
Oh am I derailing the thread about competitive Starcraft where people are discussing differences between LoL and sc2 viewership by bringing up LoL and sc2 viewership?
My exact point is that this entire notion that the viewer base is dying is completely grabbed out of think air. Starcraft 2 is doing just fine, e-sports as a whole has never been this huge and now LoL is broadening the scene even more. These are great times. The only thing that is bad for Starcraft is all off this retarded negative publicity brought on by these threads of headless chickens running around saying the sky is falling. If anything that is deterring to new casual players. TL is where people who are new to the game are often referred to for information, just how many new casual players are you attracting when they come here to find the general forum spammed with posts of people declaring the imminent death of the game? I wouldn't be surprised if those people turn around and go install LoL instead then.
People see hundreds of thousands of LoL viewers as the apocalypse. I see it as hundreds of thousands of new e-sports fans, most of whom probably were not watching sc2 in the first place but now they might turn on MLG to watch LoL and end up getting attracted to Starcraft 2 as well. Publicity for one game is publicity for the other as long as these games appear at the same contests.
Um, the topic is about LoL and Starcraft2, not football and hockey compared to starcraft2 and LoL... You are derailing. Riot is doing things correctly and Blizzard is not. I am not a LoL fanboy as I actually dislike the game, but that doesn't mean I am blind to the fact that they are doing a better job. Again, the game will not die, but the competitive scene can. Why you're so against changing the game for the better is beyond my understanding.
On October 21 2012 15:07 Urasim wrote: Um, the topic is about LoL and Starcraft2, not football and hockey compared to starcraft2 and LoL... You are derailing.
hey Champ, for clarity...here is the thread title
Destiny: The Pro Scene Depends on the Casual Scene
and in illustrating his point Destiny talks about things ranging from the 1975 "VCR War" all the way to the events occurring in 2012... leaving things WIDE OPEN for analogies. and Destiny's first analogy was incorrect. leaving things even more wide open.
therefore, this thread could go in all kinds of directions.
your hyper sensitivity to "derailing" is derailing this topic :D
Its a lot more than just casual friendliness. Although a big factor in SC2's failure is BNet 2.0.
LoL is a better game than SC2, its more fun to play, and the game is always fresh, because heroes are getting added all the time and strategies are always changing.
I actually do think part of SC2's problem is how boring PvZ is. If you are going to invite a friend to spectate a match and its PvZ, hardly likely he's going to return to watch SC2. Actually every matchup besides TvZ and TvT is abysmal. LoL and Dota2 are improvements on the original game, but look at SC2, even a bronze level BW game is more fun to watch/play than SC2.
In a parallel universe everything is equal but SC2's competitive scene revolves around team games, and people would laugh at the possibility of 1v1 being anything but boring.
A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both.
A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth.
Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game.
I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2.
That's a strange quote <.<
But yes I'm not saying that League is like that, I'm just saying that you don't need to develop for exclusively something. SC2 doesn't exclusively need to be hardcore, for example. I know LoL has a lot of flaws as well, but honestly most people here really underestimate its depth without any real knowledge of how it actually works.
Again I'll bring up SSBM, it's a very casual game that can be played super hardcore as well, that's how a game should be these days. You don't only need to do either casual or hardcore, you can do both
I would describe my self as an casual player how likes to challenge my self. i love the strategic depth of the game and also the physical components of the game. I am gold so in the eyes of most ppl here pretty casual.
why i think sc2 has a problem:
- ladder system is failing to understand psychological behavior of human beings
your win/loss ratio is kept near 50 percent so you try your little heart out to win but at the end of the day you lost near the same amount of games you have won.
it don't matter that your MMR is raising you don't feel it. this is frustrating.
- reward system sucks
i log on to the ladder play 10 game loose 7 going down in ranks and have nothing achieved.
sure if you are competitive u will find flaws in your game play... more gg more skill ... but Joe schmoe lost his rank nothing more. this is frustrating again.
- arcade mode not known enough
most of my friends which own sc2 didn't even know about arcade. they played the campaign got stomped in placement matches and stopped playing.
- b-net feels lonely.
nothing more to say.
Besides that i don't think the game should be more easy. and i don't think we should compare BW to much with SC 2. it was a complete different time. there was no Facebook there was no WoW there wasn't any Moba out there. Gamer are different nowadays. it's a new generation.
i think sc2 is not big enough to support a pro-scene. But this does not mean it will die. High level amateur play and smallish online cups can be similar entertaining, so there is simply no market for multi million dollar tourneys - because no one wants to pay the bill. You can create a nearby similar viewer experience with some 100 $ and a twitch account. Being the best competetive RTS game out there, SC2 will not die anytime soon. It would be a huge mistake to simplify/ease it further as current viewerbase is there exactly because they enjoy RTS not MOBA's.
Anyway blizzard should relax restrictions on mapmaking and mods, add LAN. Actually tolerating pirate copies could be an alternative to F2Play and make the game more popular again. The restrictions of BNET are a huge factor regarding dwindling popularity in PC-bangs. They should focus to enforce valid copies beeing used in tourneys and streams, but relax copy protection in private/closed environments. Maybe make WOL free as hots is out.
Many software companies don't get the fact, that pirate copies often times work like kind of advertising leading to more income long term.
As well you should think about how much does blizzard earn with sc2 and how much does RIOT earn.....bliz once sold sc for about 2 million times. It costs like 60 $ for the customer from this 60 there are about 10 % tax, 30 for the shop selling it, and about 5 $ transport costs, material costs and so on, leaves 15 for blizzard (probably less).
that makes 30 millions. Now discount all the costs for the server the production the support the public work sponsorships ....
they maybe made like 5 millions with it....thats it, they are not earning anything since then. They now can not invest millions into esports, it would just not be profitable.
You have no idea how the retail price is distributed. 30 for the shop? They wish. Profit margins on things like games are really low for retailers. $5 transport costs? Perhaps if you ship each box individually from Blizzard HQ. But once you bundle things in larger shipments, the transport costs per unit drop dramatically.
The profit margin for Blizzard is much higher than you think it is.
i worked in a freight forwarding agency when i was young so i know pretty good how much transport costs. And sending goods from blizz to europe for example then partions to bigger warehouses, who send it to the compans consolidation warehouse and then send small packes with like 50 - 200 games to the stores, then add the costs for the duty (or if no duty the process and documents required) thats quite expensive altogether, then add the packing costs, the material costs for the game itself and if a company manages to keep this costs at 5 $ they did a fucking great job.
As well its not that the store gets 30 for the selling, but its not like the store where you buy it, buys directly from blizzard, the bought it from a distributor, and this distributor bought it from a bigger distributor....and everyone of them wants to earn some dollars....i just didn t wanted to go that deep into it explaining everything....but i think 30 $ for the hole selling is reasonable.
but thats not even what my post was all about, it was about how blizzard is not interested in sc2 having a lot of active players while RIOT is.
I definitly think that the lack luster Arcade is a large part of SC2 losing its active player base. In WC3 most of my friends moved to DOTA. So when I logged in, they were still on, just not laddering, but playing DOTA or footy wars!!!! In SC2 they stopped playing SC2 all together. So when I log in, my friends list is basically empty.
On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote: How I know SC2 is in trouble.
O_o wtf?
@thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2.
And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium.
That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options...
On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote: How I know SC2 is in trouble.
O_o wtf?
@thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2.
And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium.
That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options...
I see that MLG mvp ppv at like sub 1000 viewers, it's pathetic.
On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote: How I know SC2 is in trouble.
O_o wtf?
@thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2.
And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium.
That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options...
I see that MLG mvp ppv at like sub 1000 viewers, it's pathetic.
It's still 10k that goes directly to MLG. It's probably more than 50k free viewers would generate...
On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote: How I know SC2 is in trouble.
O_o wtf?
@thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2.
And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium.
That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options...
I see that MLG mvp ppv at like sub 1000 viewers, it's pathetic.
It's still 10k that goes directly to MLG. It's probably more than 50k free viewers would generate...
But still it shows that people aren't that willing. There were alot more the first ppv.
On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote: How I know SC2 is in trouble.
O_o wtf?
@thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2.
And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium.
That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options...
I counter your anecdotal evidence about you (and perhaps even your friends too) being hardcore Starcraft 2 watchers with my anecdotal evidence about knowing nobody who gives a shot about SC2 and hasn't done for 6 months. On the other hand, I have 'casual' friends who watched LoL championships and did so without anybody telling them where to go look or ANYTHING. They watched because RIOT told their players that it was going on and where to find it.
Also, you don't seem to understand how sponsorships work. You watch TV, right? And you have an idea how many millions are being spent on making each and every one of those braindead, half-minute commercials, right? And that companies have to pay millions more to even get the thing on TV? Why would they do that? Because of numbers, because of exposition. Basically, if what you are saying is truth, and that LoL has more viewer rotation than SC2, that is a larger pool of not as dedicated fans, that is even better than if LoL just had 650'000 hardcore viewers. That means MUCH, MUCH more exposition for the sponsors, that means MUCH more incentive to throw money at the game.
RIOT is minting it because the game is accessible, fun to play and supports the largest progaming scene in the world. The only thing in eSports that LoL's tournament scen edoesn't just flat out dwarf is the Korean Brood War Scene of around 2004. Anything else that we have ever seen, except PERHAPS DotA in China is just inisignificantly small. Hardcore viewers mean nothing if they are the only thing. They are the skeleton of the proscene, the players are the brain but the casual viewers are everything else. Without casual viewers the scene will always be fatally small.
Look at Quake. At a particular LAN, the organizers couldn't even get the monitors sponsored, so the fans brought them themselves. They lugged highdefinition monitors cross-country so they could watch Quake, because the sponsors didn't care. I dare say that beat anything the SC2 has to offer in terms of hardcore viewership. Still, who the fuck cares about Quake? And that is my point, and it has been my point ever since LoL gained the slightest amount of popularity, that casual players are important, because without them there is no scene.
Look at Bloodline Champions. Do you even remember that game? It was designed to take the Dota and LoL teamfights and make a super competitive game that could foster a tournament scene. 2GD played a part in making that game, if I recall correctly. It is an awesome competitive game, it really is, everything is a skill shot, everything is hard, all classes are mobile.
And nobody gave a fuck. It even had a tournament scene, and exposure at CyberArena tournaments in the CIS countries. Still, nobody gave a fuck.
On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote: How I know SC2 is in trouble.
Good, as a caster he's been clueless and stuttering nonsense for the past year or so, it will give someone actually working hard a chance to make money
On October 21 2012 23:02 teapot wrote: Why isn't the casual audience there?
Because idiot Blizz listened to BW elitists who did not like anything about WC3.
HEY back off!
WC3 was a great game that required massive APM on individual unit micro.
The best of its kind.
I don't know if you understood my point.
WC3 had better team games, better FFA games, better custom games, better chat system. Everything required to build a community was in WC3.
But Blizzard wanted to focus on the 1v1 pro scene that the TL BW elitists are infatuated with, and all that fell by the way side. This is their idea of starcraft utopia, there just isn't anyone in it - everyone is instead playing a game descended from wc3 custom map.
On October 21 2012 23:02 teapot wrote: Why isn't the casual audience there?
Because idiot Blizz listened to BW elitists who did not like anything about WC3.
HEY back off!
WC3 was a great game that required massive APM on individual unit micro.
The best of its kind.
I don't know if you understood my point.
WC3 had better team games, better FFA games, better custom games, better chat system. Everything required to build a community was in WC3.
But Blizzard wanted to focus on the 1v1 pro scene that the TL BW elitists are infatuated with, and all that fell by the way side. This is their idea of starcraft utopia, there just isn't anyone in it - everyone is instead playing a game descended from wc3 custom map.
lol what
Haven't you seen people talking about how they preferred old Bnet, BGH games, and even how you used to play 1s, etc to the current SC2 model of isolated 1v1s? You know, like the person who made the statement this thread is based on?
On October 21 2012 23:02 teapot wrote: Why isn't the casual audience there?
Because idiot Blizz listened to BW elitists who did not like anything about WC3.
HEY back off!
WC3 was a great game that required massive APM on individual unit micro.
The best of its kind.
I don't know if you understood my point.
WC3 had better team games, better FFA games, better custom games, better chat system. Everything required to build a community was in WC3.
But Blizzard wanted to focus on the 1v1 pro scene that the TL BW elitists are infatuated with, and all that fell by the way side. This is their idea of starcraft utopia, there just isn't anyone in it - everyone is instead playing a game descended from wc3 custom map.
lol what
Haven't you seen people talking about how they preferred old Bnet, BGH games, and even how you used to play 1s, etc to the current SC2 model of isolated 1v1s? You know, like the person who made the statement this thread is based on?
Eeyep, not sure what's he saying with 1 vs 1 pro scene, haven't Blizzard toned down the mechanics difficulty enough?
On October 21 2012 16:17 Gonzo103 wrote: I would describe my self as an casual player how likes to challenge my self. i love the strategic depth of the game and also the physical components of the game. I am gold so in the eyes of most ppl here pretty casual.
why i think sc2 has a problem:
- ladder system is failing to understand psychological behavior of human beings
your win/loss ratio is kept near 50 percent so you try your little heart out to win but at the end of the day you lost near the same amount of games you have won.
it don't matter that your MMR is raising you don't feel it. this is frustrating.
It would be even more frustrating if you win more when you above the 50% skill level or less when you below.
If you are a beginner and almost always are going to lose a game, you will stop playing very soon. If you are in diamond and you win most of your games, it gets boring either.
With getting a higher MMR, the games get more interesting. That is why you play for. You still can grind total win numbers if you just win 3 out of 10 games. And you know that another day you will win 7 out of 10 games.
On October 21 2012 21:35 Xahhk wrote: How I know SC2 is in trouble.
O_o wtf?
@thread title - I call BS. Pro scene is not depending on casual players, it's depending on hardcore watchers. That means watchers, who actually are willing to pay for stuff. The LoL community, even though it has more free watchers, still has less people willing to pay for stuff than SC2.
And it will probably stay that way - because being casual player doesn't mean you are interested in actually paying for watching pros. Like me - I am casual LoL player, I play LoL much more than SC2 (I don't actually play SC2 anymore), I have watched some LoL tournaments (Azubu the champions, World Championship etc) but I would never ever pay for LoL tournaments. Not 20$, not 5$, not anything. On the other hand, I have GSL subscription, all MLG PPV and OSL premium.
That's why I think, that sponsors will keep their interest in SC2, not in LoL - SC2 fans has proven they are willing and able to pay. LoL fans has not. That's why even though there is less SC2 fans, they are imo more interesting to sponsors than LoL fans. For now. It may change later, if the 'casual' LoL fans will actually be interested in paying for some PPV or Premium/HQ options...
People willing to pay for SC2 stuff isn't the issue. Pay per view isn't going to fuel this business, large viewership numbers are.
A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both.
A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth.
Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game.
I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2.
Man this come off as so ignorant, you label league a simplistic game lacking any depth like 100 other people on TL here and don't even go into any detail because it's painfully obvious the most time you spent with the game was less than 30 minutes. Are you some expert who can make judgements or generalizations without providing any support as you have just done?
Gamers can't handle your game? That's you excuse for why SC2 can't attract players like LoL? Heh, I don't think this requires any refutation just reading the statement is enough to dismiss it immediately. I think the horrible trend you are noticing is that hardcore gamers have become a minority to casuals as games have become more popular with the mainstream; gamers themselves have not changed, it's not "they can't handle it", it's the majority of gamers are looking for something different than SC2 gasp. It's not realistic to think that someone coming into PC gaming for the first time is ready to devote all his time to SC2 to get to a level where he can even play the game. SC2 has done a terrible job creating an environment for casuals to enjoy, not "people can't handle the game" it's blizzard job to fix that.
I've detailed my opinion on the topic a million times, and plus I don't want to derail the discussion too much. First off, let me get two things straight. I've played quite a bit of League because my friends did. I started to play ranked, played about 15 games, and had a 70% win rate.Pretty confident I would've hit top elo, because I've done that in every game I play. Secondly, I'm not making excuses for SC2. I haven't played it for about a year.
Your second paragraph is just completely wrong. Hardcore gamers have always been a minority, but in the past games were different. Obviously the gaming community is constantly growing, but it all boils down to what the casual gamers are playing. The truth is that the generation of gamers that grew up playing older games can handle a bit of depth without getting frustrated because we grew up with those games. Nowadays gamers are spoiled to the point that if they complain loud enough they can actually nerf games to make them easier. A casual gamer in the past would play a few games of unreal tournament, a few hours of half life, age of empires, etc. A casual gamer today will log a few games of call of duty or league of legends. That would be ok with me if not for the fact that these same people also complain when games are too hard for them (WoW/Diablo nerfs, SC2 balance whine, etc), and the best developers giving in to this generation's dollar.This is why Valve has ascended to be my favorite game developer, because they and Gabe N were here from the beginning and they don't have corporate pressure. I hope to god Half Life 3 doesn't get dumbed down like Crysis 2 for example.
SC2 can never retain a big casual audience and Blizzard can't do anything about it without dumbing the game down considerably. This generation's casual will never play games like SC2, and I've witnessed it for myself. My friends are gamers of this generation and I tried introducing them to the games I've played, and they didn't play more than 3 games of SC2 without quitting, more than a few minutes on inferno without quitting, more than a few minutes of Battlefield without quitting, and more then a few games of DOTA2 before going back to League. My friends have actually said to me that they wish they could play DOTA2 and the level they play League, because they recognize that it's a better competitive game.That's why I'm saying SC2 is about is big as a game like this is going to get.
I agree with Destiny on this. From personal experience, if it weren't for casual 3v3 zero clutters, 4v4 BGH or micro maps, and custom maps, I would have quit BW by 2001 or 2002 and never returned. The fact that there were still endless amounts of those casual games being hosted/played on bnet, plus all the new interesting maps being made year in and year out made me keeping playing the game on and off until pro scene finally captivated me in 2007 and made me give 1v1 a try. Same thing with Dota. I was playing 3v3 with my friends long before I knew about competitive scene.
On October 21 2012 23:53 Djagulingu wrote: The funny part is that Mr.Hoon said pretty much the same thing when SC2 first got released. People only now realize this fact.
Nooooo.
Many of us have been saying since the stupid release. You guys only remember Mr. Hoon and Destiny because you treat them as figures in the community whenever else knew how stupid it was to find a UMS game let alone the B.Net 2.0.
It's like I said before there are two angles:
1. You can call them the outspoken minority.
2. They say what a lot of other people are thinking but usually it's crude/rude so the majority would edit themselves before they even say anything.
It's one of the other.
This isn't rocket science. It really isn't and it took posts from Grubby and Destiny to make every flock on these damn forums, which really isn't that productive because at the end of the day the ball is in Blizzard's court and you really have to get them to take notice of the situation.
I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars would be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2. And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map, or rather map created with their tools on their platform. It is them who had to see all the potential.
On October 20 2012 04:44 Thylacine wrote: He is 100% right but I don't think Artosis will bother trying to believe and understand what he actually says. Imho, Artosis is blinded by the ''beauty of Sc2'' and all that stuff.
How? Because it's the same thing. There are major problems, problems that must be fixed, and we, the people must unite and fix it... We must do everything in our power to make Blizzard wake the fuck up, theoretically we need to construct a 10 ton church bell and ring it so hard that Blizzard's headquarters shake and tremble.
One day...
This is how we know SC2 is dead.. it has been compared to Nickelback.
I kid, I kid. But seriously, Destiny is entirely right. LoL is much nicer to the casual side of gamers. You can jump right into LoL at a casual level, and not have to practice 15 hours a day to be mildly decent at the game. That's personally why I think LoL gets such higher viewer numbers for tournaments. Players can watch, and learn things from the pro games, that they can imitate much easier than imitating a build order they saw on GSL or something. Casuals mold the image of the pro scene, that's entirely correct.
Its basically like this for me - game not fun for me to play anymore so I stopped following tournaments. I looked at HotS and I don't see any point in buying it, same boring shit.
I play both League of Legends and Starcraft II and I feel that the main reason that I play League of Legends more is that it's unranked and doesn't matter if I lose. Sure with the introduction of an unranked ladder there will be more people going into taking 1v1 more seriously (as they can build confidence), but I think that Destiny is 100% on the ball here with what really matters. League of Legends feels like there's less on the line, and when you lose it doesn't feel like you're solely responsible. I find myself playing more team games in Starcraft for this reason, but there's only so much you can do until you get bored - and that's where the custom games should come in.
On October 22 2012 00:19 NightOfTheDead wrote: I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars will be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2. And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map. It is them who had to see all the potential.
Fun fact: DotA in Warcraft3 was based on Aeon of Strife in Starcraft: Brood War. We wouldn't have DotA without Starcraft: Brood War.
On October 22 2012 00:19 NightOfTheDead wrote: I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars will be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2. And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map. It is them who had to see all the potential.
Fun fact: DotA in Warcraft3 was based on Aeon of Strife in Starcraft: Brood War. We wouldn't have DotA without Starcraft: Brood War.
Probably, but we had Aeon on Wc3 also. Though the way it was evolving, became Dota in its' current form and when it became THAT much popular was on WC3 platform.
On October 22 2012 00:19 NightOfTheDead wrote: I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars will be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2. And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map. It is them who had to see all the potential.
Fun fact: DotA in Warcraft3 was based on Aeon of Strife in Starcraft: Brood War. We wouldn't have DotA without Starcraft: Brood War.
Probably, but we had Aeon on Wc3 also. Though the way it was evolving, became Dota in its' current form and when it became THAT much popular was on WC3 platform.
In a sense, BW killed SC2. Never thought that I would say that.
On October 22 2012 00:19 NightOfTheDead wrote: I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars would be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2. And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map, or rather map created with their tools on their platform. It is them who had to see all the potential.
All we won't from Blizzard is an identical Battle net to the WC3 with maybe a few extra features, but no changes to the features that are already in.
If I had to expand on WC3s Battle net. I would give tournament organizers the ability to run Ladder stages for their tournaments (Custom ladders (Only for specific people tho because it takes bandwidth soo maybe paying for it))
And having a forum right on Battle net being able to make custom profiles to display whatever you want with custom pictures etc etc (People could report it for copyright or if it was offensive to avoid problems)
Twitch TV SC2 streams embedded into Battle net and thats about it.
On October 22 2012 00:19 NightOfTheDead wrote: I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars will be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2. And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map. It is them who had to see all the potential.
Fun fact: DotA in Warcraft3 was based on Aeon of Strife in Starcraft: Brood War. We wouldn't have DotA without Starcraft: Brood War.
Probably, but we had Aeon on Wc3 also. Though the way it was evolving, became Dota in its' current form and when it became THAT much popular was on WC3 platform.
In a sense, BW killed SC2. Never thought that I would say that.
i don't always agree with destiny, but i thought what he said was a word by word immaculate description of sc2 scene compared to other games, and the issue we will face as the scene progresses
On October 22 2012 00:19 NightOfTheDead wrote: I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars will be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2. And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map. It is them who had to see all the potential.
Fun fact: DotA in Warcraft3 was based on Aeon of Strife in Starcraft: Brood War. We wouldn't have DotA without Starcraft: Brood War.
Probably, but we had Aeon on Wc3 also. Though the way it was evolving, became Dota in its' current form and when it became THAT much popular was on WC3 platform.
In a sense, BW killed SC2. Never thought that I would say that.
Wait what?
His thinking: BW created AoS > DotA map in WC3 inspired by AoS > DotA spawns the Moba genre > Moba genre killing starcraft2. Of course the Moba genre isn't actually killing starcraft2, but that is what he is trying to get at, and I am guessing he isn't being 100% serious.
I might be still living in my own dream world, but to me it seems unfair to compare viewership at this stage. Its great we have awesome games running at the same time and is something that we should all appreciate rather than use the success of one particular game to destroy the rest of the scene.
There is a lot crossover in viewership however there's a SC2 Tournament to watch pretty much 24/7, Dota and LoL Tournaments are not as frequent because of that events like invitational build up hype and bring in on the viewership, Starladder finals this weekend probably going to have more viewers than Dreamhack even though its nowhere close to the $1mil prize pool.
The general viewership will spread again once LoL and Dota (still not released) events become more regular and hopefuly be enough reasons for sponsors to carry on with all three of the games (btw I hate LoL)
Sorry Destiny but if our scene had similar amount of tournaments to what they have had so far, self proclaimed pros like you would never ever win anything
On October 22 2012 00:19 NightOfTheDead wrote: I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars will be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2. And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map. It is them who had to see all the potential.
Fun fact: DotA in Warcraft3 was based on Aeon of Strife in Starcraft: Brood War. We wouldn't have DotA without Starcraft: Brood War.
Probably, but we had Aeon on Wc3 also. Though the way it was evolving, became Dota in its' current form and when it became THAT much popular was on WC3 platform.
In a sense, BW killed SC2. Never thought that I would say that.
Wait what?
His thinking: BW created AoS > DotA map in WC3 inspired by AoS > DotA spawns the Moba genre > Moba genre killing starcraft2. Of course the Moba genre isn't actually killing starcraft2, but that is what he is trying to get at, and I am guessing he isn't being 100% serious.
Well, it is pretty accurate actually. Moba is influencing the success of SC2. And probably in a negative way the way sponsors may go. Although it remains to be seen in the future, with our hope it is being the other way around.
On October 22 2012 00:19 NightOfTheDead wrote: I dont get how everyone just talks about BW and SC2, and totally ignore WC3. WC3 is the reason Dota, LoL and others came to life in their current form. That's how big WC3 legacy (not BW) or rather WC3 custom game legacy is. Destiny is right, SC2 custom game legacy is non-existant. Unless if smth like Blizz Allstars will be ground-breaking. But there are serious doubts considering Bnet 'features' during 2 years of starcraft 2. And question is, how could blizz totally miss such thing as Dota. It was their god fkin custom map. It is them who had to see all the potential.
Fun fact: DotA in Warcraft3 was based on Aeon of Strife in Starcraft: Brood War. We wouldn't have DotA without Starcraft: Brood War.
Probably, but we had Aeon on Wc3 also. Though the way it was evolving, became Dota in its' current form and when it became THAT much popular was on WC3 platform.
In a sense, BW killed SC2. Never thought that I would say that.
Wait what?
His thinking: BW created AoS > DotA map in WC3 inspired by AoS > DotA spawns the Moba genre > Moba genre killing starcraft2. Of course the Moba genre isn't actually killing starcraft2, but that is what he is trying to get at, and I am guessing he isn't being 100% serious.
Well, it is pretty accurate actually. Moba is influencing the success of SC2. And probably in a negative way the way sponsors may go. Although it remains to be seen in the future, with our hope it is being the other way around.
Starcraft2 will only die when Blizzard kills it. Even if there are only ten people logging into the game it wouldn't be dead. Same goes for any game.
and now blizzard is going to take this the wrong way and release a patch 6 months from now that helps noobify all micro mechanics. i don't understand why they refuse to make the lobby more social or remove the shitty macro mechanics that are repetitive and boring. THOSE are what breaks the casual scene.
On October 22 2012 00:25 Chuggles wrote: I play both League of Legends and Starcraft II and I feel that the main reason that I play League of Legends more is that it's unranked and doesn't matter if I lose. Sure with the introduction of an unranked ladder there will be more people going into taking 1v1 more seriously (as they can build confidence), but I think that Destiny is 100% on the ball here with what really matters. League of Legends feels like there's less on the line, and when you lose it doesn't feel like you're solely responsible. I find myself playing more team games in Starcraft for this reason, but there's only so much you can do until you get bored - and that's where the custom games should come in.
Fun fact: It doesn't matter if you lose a game of ranked Starcraft 1v1 either.
On October 22 2012 00:25 Chuggles wrote: I play both League of Legends and Starcraft II and I feel that the main reason that I play League of Legends more is that it's unranked and doesn't matter if I lose. Sure with the introduction of an unranked ladder there will be more people going into taking 1v1 more seriously (as they can build confidence), but I think that Destiny is 100% on the ball here with what really matters. League of Legends feels like there's less on the line, and when you lose it doesn't feel like you're solely responsible. I find myself playing more team games in Starcraft for this reason, but there's only so much you can do until you get bored - and that's where the custom games should come in.
Fun fact: It doesn't matter if you lose a game of ranked Starcraft 1v1 either.
Its irrelevant how important *you* think it is, the point is that many, many people obviously do feel ladder anxiety, and its probably because their rank and league matter to them if Chuggles is a good indicator. Sarcastic commentary that ignores reality isn't really helping anything.
I believe Destiny is totally right on this one. Blizzard started off bad with creating battle.net 2.0, removing lan support and missing out on a dota clone and the huge mod scene of warcraft 3. Now with the free to play games getting bigger and bigger, time is running out. You don't get the viewership back with HOTS if it costs any money, no matter if it is 60$ or 30$. Or if the game is basically WoL with new harassment units which it shapes up to be.
The fact that LoL is the number e-sport only supports my thoughts of people having horrible taste in games these days, not their fault I suppose younger ones were not around when quality games were being released all the time. Not that LoL is a bad game, not hating at all, just its been blown way out of proportion. I do not mind if sc2 (game is far from dead btw emo's) does keep this level of interest, maybe some gaming devs will be more inclined to start releasing some other rts titles. It should not dominate the whole genre like it is, its not that good of a game.
About the vid - Destiny is just worried about his falling viewer rates on his stream and stating the obvious mostly.
A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both.
A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth.
Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game.
I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2.
Man this come off as so ignorant, you label league a simplistic game lacking any depth like 100 other people on TL here and don't even go into any detail because it's painfully obvious the most time you spent with the game was less than 30 minutes. Are you some expert who can make judgements or generalizations without providing any support as you have just done?
Gamers can't handle your game? That's you excuse for why SC2 can't attract players like LoL? Heh, I don't think this requires any refutation just reading the statement is enough to dismiss it immediately. I think the horrible trend you are noticing is that hardcore gamers have become a minority to casuals as games have become more popular with the mainstream; gamers themselves have not changed, it's not "they can't handle it", it's the majority of gamers are looking for something different than SC2 gasp. It's not realistic to think that someone coming into PC gaming for the first time is ready to devote all his time to SC2 to get to a level where he can even play the game. SC2 has done a terrible job creating an environment for casuals to enjoy, not "people can't handle the game" it's blizzard job to fix that.
I've detailed my opinion on the topic a million times, and plus I don't want to derail the discussion too much. First off, let me get two things straight. I've played quite a bit of League because my friends did. I started to play ranked, played about 15 games, and had a 70% win rate.Pretty confident I would've hit top elo, because I've done that in every game I play. Secondly, I'm not making excuses for SC2. I haven't played it for about a year.
Your second paragraph is just completely wrong. Hardcore gamers have always been a minority, but in the past games were different. Obviously the gaming community is constantly growing, but it all boils down to what the casual gamers are playing. The truth is that the generation of gamers that grew up playing older games can handle a bit of depth without getting frustrated because we grew up with those games. Nowadays gamers are spoiled to the point that if they complain loud enough they can actually nerf games to make them easier. A casual gamer in the past would play a few games of unreal tournament, a few hours of half life, age of empires, etc. A casual gamer today will log a few games of call of duty or league of legends. That would be ok with me if not for the fact that these same people also complain when games are too hard for them (WoW/Diablo nerfs, SC2 balance whine, etc), and the best developers giving in to this generation's dollar.This is why Valve has ascended to be my favorite game developer, because they and Gabe N were here from the beginning and they don't have corporate pressure. I hope to god Half Life 3 doesn't get dumbed down like Crysis 2 for example.
SC2 can never retain a big casual audience and Blizzard can't do anything about it without dumbing the game down considerably. This generation's casual will never play games like SC2, and I've witnessed it for myself. My friends are gamers of this generation and I tried introducing them to the games I've played, and they didn't play more than 3 games of SC2 without quitting, more than a few minutes on inferno without quitting, more than a few minutes of Battlefield without quitting, and more then a few games of DOTA2 before going back to League. My friends have actually said to me that they wish they could play DOTA2 and the level they play League, because they recognize that it's a better competitive game.That's why I'm saying SC2 is about is big as a game like this is going to get.
This is meta shift in these kind of threads. All discussion should start from this. :D
Hope Blizzard sees it. He perfectly summarize why the viewership is down. And also why all of my friends have either switched to LoL or haven't ever played 1v1 SC2 ladder game and only playing 3v3 and 4v4...
Blizzard needs to put their shit together and i think the next patch is a step in the right direction, but a very small step.
I say this while also being a LoL player, anyone who played both Dota 2 and LoL knows that dota 2 is a way superior game in terms of the skill needed, yet LoL is and will dominate it just like it will dominate sc2 in terms of viewers. Why? A large majority of gamers are simpletons who wants the easy entry level and low skill roof game where they can grind out games in zombie mode. Challenging games are not as attractive to a large group of players. This can hardly be news to anyone and it is just something you need to accept. Sc2 will never have LoL's viewers period, and it does not need to have them. sc2 needs enough viewers to function as an e-sport and attract pro players but it does not and can not "win" in terms of viewers, not without making it another dumbed down casual game that my grandma can play at the top level.
On October 22 2012 00:25 Chuggles wrote: I play both League of Legends and Starcraft II and I feel that the main reason that I play League of Legends more is that it's unranked and doesn't matter if I lose. Sure with the introduction of an unranked ladder there will be more people going into taking 1v1 more seriously (as they can build confidence), but I think that Destiny is 100% on the ball here with what really matters. League of Legends feels like there's less on the line, and when you lose it doesn't feel like you're solely responsible. I find myself playing more team games in Starcraft for this reason, but there's only so much you can do until you get bored - and that's where the custom games should come in.
Fun fact: It doesn't matter if you lose a game of ranked Starcraft 1v1 either.
Alot of people get the 'you just got raped' feeling after you lose a one versus one match where there is no overwhelming imbalance and no other person to blame faults on. The man on the other side had his way with you electronically and casual players do not like that.
On October 22 2012 00:25 Chuggles wrote: I play both League of Legends and Starcraft II and I feel that the main reason that I play League of Legends more is that it's unranked and doesn't matter if I lose. Sure with the introduction of an unranked ladder there will be more people going into taking 1v1 more seriously (as they can build confidence), but I think that Destiny is 100% on the ball here with what really matters. League of Legends feels like there's less on the line, and when you lose it doesn't feel like you're solely responsible. I find myself playing more team games in Starcraft for this reason, but there's only so much you can do until you get bored - and that's where the custom games should come in.
Fun fact: It doesn't matter if you lose a game of ranked Starcraft 1v1 either.
Alot of people get the 'you just got raped' feeling after you lose a one versus one match where there is no overwhelming imbalance and no other person to blame faults on. The man on the other side had his way with you electronically and casual players do not like that.
Yeah and you get that playing LoL too when you get absolutely rolled. If anything it is worse in LoL because if you make a mistake there, not only will you lose but with the amazing community you have a 50% chance of getting flamed by your own teammates for the rest of the game.
On October 22 2012 02:56 VanGarde wrote: I say this while also being a LoL player, anyone who played both Dota 2 and LoL knows that dota 2 is a way superior game in terms of the skill needed, yet LoL is and will dominate it just like it will dominate sc2 in terms of viewers. Why? A large majority of gamers are simpletons who wants the easy entry level and low skill roof game where they can grind out games in zombie mode. Challenging games are not as attractive to a large group of players. This can hardly be news to anyone and it is just something you need to accept. Sc2 will never have LoL's viewers period, and it does not need to have them. sc2 needs enough viewers to function as an e-sport and attract pro players but it does not and can not "win" in terms of viewers, not without making it another dumbed down casual game that my grandma can play at the top level.
the first LoL-Player i see, who admits that Dota 2 needs more skill. All the others still try to convince me that LoL is "as hard" as Dota :D.
But hey Argument is totally valid.
And Destiny didnt even Mention that Riot buys their ways into tourneys etc etc.
Posting in support of better custom games interface and a better, more fun, map editor.
The best thing WC3 had was the custom games section and a fun map editor. In combination these two things ran an incredibly creative community of gaming, that spawned THOUSANDS of entertaining games, with well made sleek finished iterations of hundreds of game types. If SC2 wants to have an active casual community (it should), Blizzard should do their everything to recreate this phenomenon.
On October 22 2012 02:56 VanGarde wrote: I say this while also being a LoL player, anyone who played both Dota 2 and LoL knows that dota 2 is a way superior game in terms of the skill needed, yet LoL is and will dominate it just like it will dominate sc2 in terms of viewers. Why? A large majority of gamers are simpletons who wants the easy entry level and low skill roof game where they can grind out games in zombie mode. Challenging games are not as attractive to a large group of players. This can hardly be news to anyone and it is just something you need to accept. Sc2 will never have LoL's viewers period, and it does not need to have them. sc2 needs enough viewers to function as an e-sport and attract pro players but it does not and can not "win" in terms of viewers, not without making it another dumbed down casual game that my grandma can play at the top level.
(not in reply to the quoted)
Blizzard could make the effort of re-creating the features, that made BW watchable entertainment for non-players. As far as I understand, not nearly everyone who watched broodwar during it's ascent were playing the game.
The basic game play of SC2 is not that entertaining to watch.
On October 22 2012 03:17 Kontys wrote: Blizzard could make the effort of re-creating the features, that made BW watchable entertainment for non-players. As far as I understand, not nearly everyone who watched broodwar during it's ascent were playing the game.
The basic game play of SC2 is not that entertaining to watch.
Actually if anything this is what defines sc2 as an e-sport. There are so many people who watch it without playing. 90% of people I know personally who watch sc2 does not play it at all.
On October 20 2012 04:23 zazen42 wrote: People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
seriously just think about it and you will realize your not even making a relevant point in this discussion that is besides the hots part
I really think SC 2 is gonna be ok as long as SC 2 gets like 60,000 viewers it can grow. The problem right now is really blizzard is being so restricting. I am hoping blizzards WCS thing is amazing....But ya.
@WoW-Arena und WoW >10m players wow arena players were and are a very small minority of the entire wow population
@LoL is so easy, i can play it half asleep.. you do notice that the other team is playing the same game? It mind boggles me how someone can even spout something that stupid and not get kicked out of the discussion instantly. It is a pvp game - you get better, your opponents get better (this is called matchmaking). That you can pick the game up and not start at the bottom of the barrel as a (semi-)serious gamer doesn't mean anything.
Or is this supposed to mean that at a pro level all games are around 50-50 because both teams are hitting the skill ceiling?
SC2 is also "easy" to play, just go deep bronze (or somewhere way below your skill level), if you can enjoy a game were you get constantly told that you are playing on a really low level.
Of course LoL is more enjoyable to non-hardcore-competitive players - not because it is easy - because it is a team game, more social interaction, less anxiety and the option, should shit hit the fan, to blame your teammates. The most played game-mode doesn't have a visible ranking and and aside from that it got a lot of new meaningfull content, which you can aquire by playing the game.
PS/edit:
Just something that casuals would be interested in, we will get a gamemode in hots which is very similar to lol-unranked-matchmaking (a good step imho), let players there have the basic units for free and let them acquire some campaign-style units for winning x games/gathering y sc2-points, you could even patch some new stuff from time to time in. Hell you could even go the hero-wc3 path with that.
Yeah, that would create a disconnect to the "real" and competitive sc2 and yeah there would be an inherit imbalace (which you could put the blame on for losing a game) that would make every competitive player jump out of its seat, but it would be fun - and fun, like someone (thank you) mentioned earlier should always be the most important thing for every game developer ever.
After watching this vid I felt like logging on just to see how "graveyard" battle.net 2.0 is, and considering I haven't logged on in 2 months (which already shows destiny's point)... 4 people playing WoW, 1 person playing d3, no people playing sc2... Log onto LoL, 10 friends online, 6 of which are currently playing a game. And considering my SC2 friends list is larger than my LoL friends list (I used that facebook integration Real ID thing a few times in sc2), this is pretty depressing.
On October 22 2012 04:45 Black0ut wrote: After watching this vid I felt like logging on just to see how "graveyard" battle.net 2.0 is, and considering I haven't logged on in 2 months (which already shows destiny's point)... 4 people playing WoW, 1 person playing d3, no people playing sc2... Log onto LoL, 10 friends online, 6 of which are currently playing a game. And considering my SC2 friends list is larger than my LoL friends list (I used that facebook integration Real ID thing a few times in sc2), this is pretty depressing.
Yeah, you've proven it. Sc2 is dead, you are all correct guys the game is over, let's admit it and move on. Can we change this thread now to discuss which game we should all switch to? I say World of Warcraft.
On October 22 2012 04:45 Black0ut wrote: After watching this vid I felt like logging on just to see how "graveyard" battle.net 2.0 is, and considering I haven't logged on in 2 months (which already shows destiny's point)... 4 people playing WoW, 1 person playing d3, no people playing sc2... Log onto LoL, 10 friends online, 6 of which are currently playing a game. And considering my SC2 friends list is larger than my LoL friends list (I used that facebook integration Real ID thing a few times in sc2), this is pretty depressing.
Granted I have a few more LoL friends than Starcraft, however:
LoL- 15, 12 playing a game. Starcraft - 0.
Also after having said this, I'm deciding which game to play now, and It's LoL.
I dunno... I think that game is the biggest piece of trash shit I've ever seen and played. It's like.. other shit games gather around and pray at this LoL game over how completely garbage it is..
and comparing LoL to something as Starcraft 2... Oh wow.
What I really don't see how LoL and SC2 have anything in common at all. (Besides an ancient shared relative). The only problem I see is that some people rate Moba games in the same category as RTS, which is just not the case. The chance might be a bit larger that an SC2 player would switch to LoL than to MW3, but there the similarities end. And if MW3 now was big in e-sports, would you start playing MW3?
I don't buy all the omg-we-are-doomed messages. Before SC2 I played AOE3 online, in its max it had probably fewer people active than SC2 will have in 10 years, and still there was no problem to find opponents. However that more SC2 fans would be willing to pay for for example HD streams is irrelevant, those things can be nice extra income, but can never be the main income of the e-sports scene: that must be advertisements. You can even see them as a kind of prisoners-dilema: if you have a relative popular tournament it might be an advantage to ask money for HD streams, but if everyone does it, it will kill the e-sport.
There are some easy/needed things blizzard could do however. As proposed here before adding the ability on your SC2 homescreen to easily select a tournament and watch it (preferably in-game, but via a link to a webpage would also be fine) would already help alot. What is less easy, but simply needed, is to fix the broken matchups. Today I decided to watch some SC2 games on my TV. And we have DH going on: good idea, right? In the end I switched to the Iron Squid tournament since all the ZvZ and PvZ made me want to slit my wrists. Sure as terran I might be biased, but PvZ is so freaking boring. And ZvZ can be a bit more interesting, but in DH that was also mainly exact mirror strategies, where 15 minutes in the game the difference in tech research was something like 10 seconds. PvP is then also a broken matchup, but at least is can still be quite enjoyable to watch with blink micro (at least in early/mid game).
On October 22 2012 05:47 MasterFischer wrote: Do people seriously play LoL? On teamliquid?
I dunno... I think that game is the biggest piece of trash shit I've ever seen and played. It's like.. other shit games gather around and pray at this LoL game over how completely garbage it is..
and comparing LoL to something as Starcraft 2... Oh wow.
obviously if it would be such a garbage game it wouldn't be that popular
On October 22 2012 04:29 Gajarell wrote: @LoL is so easy, i can play it half asleep.. you do notice that the other team is playing the same game? It mind boggles me how someone can even spout something that stupid and not get kicked out of the discussion instantly. It is a pvp game - you get better, your opponents get better (this is called matchmaking). That you can pick the game up and not start at the bottom of the barrel as a (semi-)serious gamer doesn't mean anything.
A good way how to define the complexity of a game: + Show Spoiler +
Let X be the maximum efficiency a player can utilize IF he is in perfect condition and 100% focused. Let Y be the efficiency a player can utilize if he is in a less perfect condition (tired, drunk, mentally absent, emotional distressed,...). Keep the player condition constant, vary the game. The closer Y gets to X, the easier the game.
Example: condition= "I am drunk and tired" tic tac toe : I can play perfectly and without any mistakes. Y=X. EASY game. Chess: forget it, Y is probably somewhere around 0.05*X. DIFFICULT game.
You don't compare individual players with varying values of X (maximum efficiency aka player skill). You compare different games in regard to a certain player condition and estimate the changes in Y. So telling me that a tired grandmaster can defeat a focused gold league player is totally besides the point, thank you. The point is that a tired GM player performs much worse than a focused GM player and a tired gold player performs much worse than a focused gold player.
I used a lot of terms in my definition which aren't clear at all. Like "efficiency". This definition is basically stolen from a text book about game theory (mathematics, not actual games i am afraid). It lost a lot of its precision due to my translation from math into english. But you should still get the point.
Obviously lol and sc2 are much closer than tic tac toe and chess. Also "measuring Y" is more a gedankenexperiment than anything else. Therefore the above definition is nothing but a suggestion. Still: lol is easier than sc2. Deal with it.
On October 22 2012 05:47 MasterFischer wrote: Do people seriously play LoL? On teamliquid?
I dunno... I think that game is the biggest piece of trash shit I've ever seen and played. It's like.. other shit games gather around and pray at this LoL game over how completely garbage it is..
and comparing LoL to something as Starcraft 2... Oh wow.
May I redirect you to the LoL sub-forum on teamliquid!!!
On October 22 2012 04:29 Gajarell wrote: @LoL is so easy, i can play it half asleep.. you do notice that the other team is playing the same game? It mind boggles me how someone can even spout something that stupid and not get kicked out of the discussion instantly. It is a pvp game - you get better, your opponents get better (this is called matchmaking). That you can pick the game up and not start at the bottom of the barrel as a (semi-)serious gamer doesn't mean anything.
A good way how to define the complexity of a game: + Show Spoiler +
Let X be the maximum efficiency a player can utilize IF he is in perfect condition and 100% focused. Let Y be the efficiency a player can utilize if he is in a less perfect condition (tired, drunk, mentally absent, emotional distressed,...). Keep the player condition constant, vary the game. The closer Y gets to X, the easier the game.
Example: condition= "I am drunk and tired" tic tac toe : I can play perfectly and without any mistakes. Y=X. EASY game. Chess: forget it, Y is probably somewhere around 0.05*X. DIFFICULT game.
You don't compare individual players with varying values of X (maximum efficiency aka player skill). You compare different games in regard to a certain player condition and estimate the changes in Y. So telling me that a tired grandmaster can defeat a focused gold league player is totally besides the point, thank you. The point is that a tired GM player performs much worse than a focused GM player and a tired gold player performs much worse than a focused gold player.
I used a lot of terms in my definition which aren't clear at all. Like "efficiency". This definition is basically stolen from a text book about game theory (mathematics, not actual games i am afraid). It lost a lot of its precision due to my translation from math into english. But you should still get the point.
Obviously lol and sc2 are much closer than tic tac toe and chess. Also "measuring Y" is more a gedankenexperiment than anything else. Therefore the above definition is nothing but a suggestion than anything else. Still: lol is easier than sc2. Deal with it.
That doesn't say much about the complexity, but mainly about the amount of focus required for the game. If we follow this definition something like whack-a-mole would also be considered a complex game.
On October 22 2012 04:29 Gajarell wrote: @LoL is so easy, i can play it half asleep.. you do notice that the other team is playing the same game? It mind boggles me how someone can even spout something that stupid and not get kicked out of the discussion instantly. It is a pvp game - you get better, your opponents get better (this is called matchmaking). That you can pick the game up and not start at the bottom of the barrel as a (semi-)serious gamer doesn't mean anything.
A good way how to define the complexity of a game: + Show Spoiler +
Let X be the maximum efficiency a player can utilize IF he is in perfect condition and 100% focused. Let Y be the efficiency a player can utilize if he is in a less perfect condition (tired, drunk, mentally absent, emotional distressed,...). Keep the player condition constant, vary the game. The closer Y gets to X, the easier the game.
Example: condition= "I am drunk and tired" tic tac toe : I can play perfectly and without any mistakes. Y=X. EASY game. Chess: forget it, Y is probably somewhere around 0.05*X. DIFFICULT game.
You don't compare individual players with varying values of X (maximum efficiency aka player skill). You compare different games in regard to a certain player condition and estimate the changes in Y. So telling me that a tired grandmaster can defeat a focused gold league player is totally besides the point, thank you. The point is that a tired GM player performs much worse than a focused GM player and a tired gold player performs much worse than a focused gold player.
I used a lot of terms in my definition which aren't clear at all. Like "efficiency". This definition is basically stolen from a text book about game theory (mathematics, not actual games i am afraid). It lost a lot of its precision due to my translation from math into english. But you should still get the point.
Obviously lol and sc2 are much closer than tic tac toe and chess. Also "measuring Y" is more a gedankenexperiment than anything else. Therefore the above definition is nothing but a suggestion than anything else. Still: lol is easier than sc2. Deal with it.
That doesn't say much about the complexity, but mainly about the amount of focus required for the game. If we follow this definition something like whack-a-mole would also be considered a complex game.
Well, i don't know, being tired and drunk doesn't make me much worse in whack-a-mole. But of course you can always be "too drunk", i guess . I didn't want to give a super precise definition. But you need to start somehwere. And it is for sure better than saying "YOU CAN'T COMPARE PVP GAMES!!!!".
Why are Starcraft 2 events still PPV? I haven't watched SC2 in awhile since switching most of my time to LoL, but when I want to watch some this MLG v Proleague thing is PPV. t.t Not the best thing for the scene.
It's true, we need more viewers, the problem with the accessibility is that people who want to try it need to pay before playing, and only the multiplayer mode is fun, trial version does not give a good enough preview of how it can be fun, LoL is free so many people will try it, also, the casual scene is really important as he says, even if we have to see 12 years old people on Live events, we just can't loose to LoL !
On October 22 2012 06:21 Headshot wrote: Why are Starcraft 2 events still PPV? I haven't watched SC2 in awhile since switching most of my time to LoL, but when I want to watch some this MLG v Proleague thing is PPV. t.t Not the best thing for the scene.
On October 22 2012 06:21 Headshot wrote: Why are Starcraft 2 events still PPV? I haven't watched SC2 in awhile since switching most of my time to LoL, but when I want to watch some this MLG v Proleague thing is PPV. t.t Not the best thing for the scene.
Because if sc2 is going to be a working e-sport ppv is the most stable source of income. You can't build a sport on sponsorship alone. The biggest obstacle to sc2 e-sports is people who want to watch it but are not willing to pay for themselves. This is a problem for all games, LoL included.
On October 22 2012 05:47 MasterFischer wrote: Do people seriously play LoL? On teamliquid?
I dunno... I think that game is the biggest piece of trash shit I've ever seen and played. It's like.. other shit games gather around and pray at this LoL game over how completely garbage it is..
and comparing LoL to something as Starcraft 2... Oh wow.
i play LoL he plays LoL we play LoL theres a LoL forum on this site..
On October 22 2012 04:29 Gajarell wrote: @LoL is so easy, i can play it half asleep.. you do notice that the other team is playing the same game? It mind boggles me how someone can even spout something that stupid and not get kicked out of the discussion instantly. It is a pvp game - you get better, your opponents get better (this is called matchmaking). That you can pick the game up and not start at the bottom of the barrel as a (semi-)serious gamer doesn't mean anything.
A good way how to define the complexity of a game: + Show Spoiler +
Let X be the maximum efficiency a player can utilize IF he is in perfect condition and 100% focused. Let Y be the efficiency a player can utilize if he is in a less perfect condition (tired, drunk, mentally absent, emotional distressed,...). Keep the player condition constant, vary the game. The closer Y gets to X, the easier the game.
Example: condition= "I am drunk and tired" tic tac toe : I can play perfectly and without any mistakes. Y=X. EASY game. Chess: forget it, Y is probably somewhere around 0.05*X. DIFFICULT game.
You don't compare individual players with varying values of X (maximum efficiency aka player skill). You compare different games in regard to a certain player condition and estimate the changes in Y. So telling me that a tired grandmaster can defeat a focused gold league player is totally besides the point, thank you. The point is that a tired GM player performs much worse than a focused GM player and a tired gold player performs much worse than a focused gold player.
I used a lot of terms in my definition which aren't clear at all. Like "efficiency". This definition is basically stolen from a text book about game theory (mathematics, not actual games i am afraid). It lost a lot of its precision due to my translation from math into english. But you should still get the point.
Obviously lol and sc2 are much closer than tic tac toe and chess. Also "measuring Y" is more a gedankenexperiment than anything else. Therefore the above definition is nothing but a suggestion than anything else. Still: lol is easier than sc2. Deal with it.
That doesn't say much about the complexity, but mainly about the amount of focus required for the game. If we follow this definition something like whack-a-mole would also be considered a complex game.
Well, i don't know, being tired and drunk doesn't make me much worse in whack-a-mole. But of course you can always be "too drunk", i guess . I didn't want to give a super precise definition. But you need to start somehwere. And it is for sure better than saying "YOU CAN'T COMPARE PVP GAMES!!!!".
I think another way to judge the skill ceilling is to look at dominant champions/teams. If the skill ceilling isnt very high the skill level at the top level should be very close, making dominant winners very unlikely.
BW had eras where players domianted over a long period of time. The same is true for games like the Quake Series and Painkiller ? Not sure about that but whenever I saw these games played, I recognized some names.
So for those of you who have good connections, here is an actual piece of constructive advice for what you can do to promote our scene. There are so many high level sc2 pro's that stream. To some extent I think top LoL players might get more inflated stream numbers just because there are fewer really recognized players streaming at the same time. Regardless though there is something you can do and that I have done for some time to show support for players you like if you have a good connection.
When I am watching streams of sc2 I can obviously only really watch one stream, but there are usually 4-5 players that I wouldn't mind watching so to let my support show in viewer numbers I open up the stream I want to watch, but then I also open up all the other streams in separate tabs in my browser and set them all to 240p to have running in the background, mute all of them and then I watch the stream I was going to watch anyway. Obviously not something everyone might be able to do, but maybe you can run 2 streams even with a bad connection.
Atm I am watching Idra stream but I also have IPL, incontrol, suppy, tod and violet running in the background. I might not physically be able to watch all of them but I can make a point by giving them the view count still.
Destiny is correct in principle, but people underestimate how hard it is to make RTS games 'fun for casuals' these days. It's not just a matter of what Blizzard wants. This entire genre has become niche in a lot of ways.
On October 22 2012 08:57 VanGarde wrote: So for those of you who have good connections, here is an actual piece of constructive advice for what you can do to promote our scene. There are so many high level sc2 pro's that stream. To some extent I think top LoL players might get more inflated stream numbers just because there are fewer really recognized players streaming at the same time. Regardless though there is something you can do and that I have done for some time to show support for players you like if you have a good connection.
When I am watching streams of sc2 I can obviously only really watch one stream, but there are usually 4-5 players that I wouldn't mind watching so to let my support show in viewer numbers I open up the stream I want to watch, but then I also open up all the other streams in separate tabs in my browser and set them all to 240p to have running in the background, mute all of them and then I watch the stream I was going to watch anyway. Obviously not something everyone might be able to do, but maybe you can run 2 streams even with a bad connection.
Atm I am watching Idra stream but I also have IPL, incontrol, suppy, tod and violet running in the background. I might not physically be able to watch all of them but I can make a point by giving them the view count still.
I used to watch player streams all the time, but i just stopped recently. I dont know why, maybe its because its just not as smooth as an actual observer. Maybe its the lack of casting. Maybe its because alot of the metagame hasn't changed much and its become boring.
I also used to watch the stream of pretty much every event, but now im watching the GSL code S exclusively (the other korean leagues are getting better though), every other small league just isn't as entertaining. It was okay for the first year, but after watching game after game for hundreds of games, only the highest level of play remains entertaining for me.
I dont think this was any different for BW, only the very, very, very highlest level of play remained entertaining and remained high in viewers.
Destiny is completely right that Blizzard doesn't do a good job of encouraging the casual user base to remain in the game and exposing them to esports though.
On October 22 2012 11:47 MasterCynical wrote: I used to watch player streams all the time, but i just stopped recently. I dont know why, maybe its because its just not as smooth as an actual observer. Maybe its the lack of casting. Maybe its because alot of the metagame hasn't changed much and its become boring.
I also used to watch the stream of pretty much every event, but now im watching the GSL code S exclusively (the other korean leagues are getting better though), every other small league just isn't as entertaining. It was okay for the first year, but after watching game after game for hundreds of games, only the highest level of play remains entertaining for me.
I dont think this was any different for BW, only the very, very, very highlest level of play remained entertaining and remained high in viewers.
Destiny is completely right that Blizzard doesn't do a good job of encouraging the casual user base to remain in the game and exposing them to esports though.
I agree to some extent about player stream, I actually do agree that this is probably in decline not because the game itself is losing favor but just that it takes a lot to keep a constant following of several thousand viewers for a stream. People will converge on the players who commentate their play, who are unique personalities etc. The personal streaming scene is quite volatile and very competitive and I don't think it is a good indicator of the health of the game. Afterall, I have kept an eye on destiny's viewer count for the last week and he is not having more viewers with LoL or more with sc2.
There is a stark contrast between playing LoL, Call of Duty or World of Warcraft and then Starcraft 2 1on1 ladder. The difference is that the first 3 mentioned "protect" the player in many ways and are not really stressful at all. Go on a LoL board and try to find a "game is stressful" post, try doing that on a SC2 forum, you will find one almost daily.
Destiny asks why a player should invest X hours to win Y amount of money when far better can be achieved in other games
But what incentive do casual players have to play daily and practice just to be able to fend of the most basic cheese or allin? Other games such as LoL, CoD and WoW do not ask this of any player, you dont need to unlock every weapon in CoD to do well, WoW is as laid back as a game can get.
The only aspect of these games that approaches the stress level of SC2 ladder is WoW Arena, and surprise surprise, Arena's are easily the most unpopular aspect of the game, some Blizzard statistic showed that less than 10% of the playerbase even plays Arena's.
It is a videogame guys, it is above all suppose to be fun, i should not have to spend hours and hours on it just to become average at it. I understand if you are unemployed or young enough that you have ample of time to devote to anything but many of us have like 2 hours a day for gaming at best, i am not going to waste that time on SC2 when i can play more rewarding games.
"lol ur bad noob" i dont give a shit, nobody cares about these online community circle jerks where every nerd is trying to outdo the other one in some game. Nobody cares about your ranking either, look how little respect even GM players in SC2 to get. Why then even try? Sure the pros get some respect, but i have no desire to be next MVP even if i could (which i cant, but if i could)
So why go through all the stress? Why waste my time? I have no aspirations for a Call of Duty career, i do not envision myself standing on a stage kissing a trophy for CoD "esports", all i wanna do is shoot some dudes. There is plenty of real stress out in the real world, not going to bring that in when i am trying to play a game.
On October 22 2012 14:04 Tyree wrote: There is a stark contrast between playing LoL, Call of Duty or World of Warcraft and then Starcraft 2 1on1 ladder. The difference is that the first 3 mentioned "protect" the player in many ways and are not really stressful at all. Go on a LoL board and try to find a "game is stressful" post, try doing that on a SC2 forum, you will find one almost daily.
Destiny asks why a player should invest X hours to win Y amount of money when far better can be achieved in other games
But what incentive do casual players have to play daily and practice just to be able to fend of the most basic cheese or allin? Other games such as LoL, CoD and WoW do not ask this of any player, you dont need to unlock every weapon in CoD to do well, WoW is as laid back as a game can get.
The only aspect of these games that approaches the stress level of SC2 ladder is WoW Arena, and surprise surprise, Arena's are easily the most unpopular aspect of the game, some Blizzard statistic showed that less than 10% of the playerbase even plays Arena's.
It is a videogame guys, it is above all suppose to be fun, i should not have to spend hours and hours on it just to become average at it. I understand if you are unemployed or young enough that you have ample of time to devote to anything but many of us have like 2 hours a day for gaming at best, i am not going to waste that time on SC2 when i can play more rewarding games.
"lol ur bad noob" i dont give a shit, nobody cares about these online community circle jerks where every nerd is trying to outdo the other one in some game. Nobody cares about your ranking either, look how little respect even GM players in SC2 to get. Why then even try? Sure the pros get some respect, but i have no desire to be next MVP even if i could (which i cant, but if i could)
So why go through all the stress? Why waste my time? I have no aspirations for a Call of Duty career, i do not envision myself standing on a stage kissing a trophy for CoD "esports", all i wanna do is shoot some dudes. There is plenty of real stress out in the real world, not going to bring that in when i am trying to play a game.
That's your own opinion. I have less than 2 hours a day for gaming and I feel it's much more rewarding and fun to play BW or SC2 than to play "noob-friendly" games. I enjoy these games because they are tough, that's what define starcraft. Take that away by trying to imitate LoL and other casual games and you take away the very soul of the game.
Playing a game of football when you're in a club is stressful too, much more than 1v1 ladder. Should anyone who does not aspire to be a pro football player just play in their backyard with the neighbour just because we want to avoid competition stress at all cost ?
I think you can discuss ui, cross server play, skill ceiling and skill floor, competitive play, view ability etc etc all day and in the end all of those things are only marginal influences. LoL is huge in South Korea and China, why? Because it is free to play. That is probably at the end of the day the only real reason why it has taken off so fast in cultures where most gamers still play at internet cafés. Starcraft 2 is designed for the western gaming community, LoL just happens to be more attuned to the Asian community. Can Blizzard get around this? Yeah probably but I am not 100% sure how.
On October 22 2012 15:00 VanGarde wrote: I think you can discuss ui, cross server play, skill ceiling and skill floor, competitive play, view ability etc etc all day and in the end all of those things are only marginal influences. LoL is huge in South Korea and China, why? Because it is free to play. That is probably at the end of the day the only real reason why it has taken off so fast in cultures where most gamers still play at internet cafés. Starcraft 2 is designed for the western gaming community, LoL just happens to be more attuned to the Asian community. Can Blizzard get around this? Yeah probably but I am not 100% sure how.
Yeah. Add Lan. Garena-like private servers will take care of the rest. Popularity will definitely be boosted, whether it's financially worth it is up to Blizzard. Appears they don't think it is anyways.
On October 22 2012 15:00 VanGarde wrote: I think you can discuss ui, cross server play, skill ceiling and skill floor, competitive play, view ability etc etc all day and in the end all of those things are only marginal influences. LoL is huge in South Korea and China, why? Because it is free to play. That is probably at the end of the day the only real reason why it has taken off so fast in cultures where most gamers still play at internet cafés. Starcraft 2 is designed for the western gaming community, LoL just happens to be more attuned to the Asian community. Can Blizzard get around this? Yeah probably but I am not 100% sure how.
Yeah. Add Lan. Garena-like private servers will take care of the rest. Popularity will definitely be boosted, whether it's financially worth it is up to Blizzard. Appears they don't think it is anyways.
No it won't be financially worth it unless they can get the money some other way, LoL is not free to play because riot love their gamers so much it is free to play because they earn more money by selling points for unlocking champions and by selling custom skins. The only way Blizzard could make sc2 free to play would be to find an equal way of earning money through micro transactions.
On October 22 2012 08:57 VanGarde wrote: So for those of you who have good connections, here is an actual piece of constructive advice for what you can do to promote our scene. There are so many high level sc2 pro's that stream. To some extent I think top LoL players might get more inflated stream numbers just because there are fewer really recognized players streaming at the same time. Regardless though there is something you can do and that I have done for some time to show support for players you like if you have a good connection.
When I am watching streams of sc2 I can obviously only really watch one stream, but there are usually 4-5 players that I wouldn't mind watching so to let my support show in viewer numbers I open up the stream I want to watch, but then I also open up all the other streams in separate tabs in my browser and set them all to 240p to have running in the background, mute all of them and then I watch the stream I was going to watch anyway. Obviously not something everyone might be able to do, but maybe you can run 2 streams even with a bad connection.
Atm I am watching Idra stream but I also have IPL, incontrol, suppy, tod and violet running in the background. I might not physically be able to watch all of them but I can make a point by giving them the view count still.
You're an example of that blog about people being a slave "for the sake of esports"
On October 22 2012 08:57 VanGarde wrote: So for those of you who have good connections, here is an actual piece of constructive advice for what you can do to promote our scene. There are so many high level sc2 pro's that stream. To some extent I think top LoL players might get more inflated stream numbers just because there are fewer really recognized players streaming at the same time. Regardless though there is something you can do and that I have done for some time to show support for players you like if you have a good connection.
When I am watching streams of sc2 I can obviously only really watch one stream, but there are usually 4-5 players that I wouldn't mind watching so to let my support show in viewer numbers I open up the stream I want to watch, but then I also open up all the other streams in separate tabs in my browser and set them all to 240p to have running in the background, mute all of them and then I watch the stream I was going to watch anyway. Obviously not something everyone might be able to do, but maybe you can run 2 streams even with a bad connection.
Atm I am watching Idra stream but I also have IPL, incontrol, suppy, tod and violet running in the background. I might not physically be able to watch all of them but I can make a point by giving them the view count still.
You're an example of that blog about people being a slave "for the sake of esports"
I don't know which blog you are talking about. If you are passionate about something you support it. I can't watch both nasl and ipl at the same time but I would watch them both if they were on at different times. It does not cost me anything to have the other stream on muted in the background while watching one. It costs me two clicks of the mouse and that is all the time it costs me. I can't say I feel like a slave, if that is the case I guess everyone that puts anything into something they care about it are slaves to the same thing. I really don't see the problem here.
On October 22 2012 08:57 VanGarde wrote: So for those of you who have good connections, here is an actual piece of constructive advice for what you can do to promote our scene. There are so many high level sc2 pro's that stream. To some extent I think top LoL players might get more inflated stream numbers just because there are fewer really recognized players streaming at the same time. Regardless though there is something you can do and that I have done for some time to show support for players you like if you have a good connection.
When I am watching streams of sc2 I can obviously only really watch one stream, but there are usually 4-5 players that I wouldn't mind watching so to let my support show in viewer numbers I open up the stream I want to watch, but then I also open up all the other streams in separate tabs in my browser and set them all to 240p to have running in the background, mute all of them and then I watch the stream I was going to watch anyway. Obviously not something everyone might be able to do, but maybe you can run 2 streams even with a bad connection.
Atm I am watching Idra stream but I also have IPL, incontrol, suppy, tod and violet running in the background. I might not physically be able to watch all of them but I can make a point by giving them the view count still.
You're an example of that blog about people being a slave "for the sake of esports"
I don't know which blog you are talking about. If you are passionate about something you support it. I can't watch both nasl and ipl at the same time but I would watch them both if they were on at different times. It does not cost me anything to have the other stream on muted in the background while watching one. It costs me two clicks of the mouse and that is all the time it costs me. I can't say I feel like a slave, if that is the case I guess everyone that puts anything into something they care about it are slaves to the same thing. I really don't see the problem here.
On October 22 2012 08:57 VanGarde wrote: So for those of you who have good connections, here is an actual piece of constructive advice for what you can do to promote our scene. There are so many high level sc2 pro's that stream. To some extent I think top LoL players might get more inflated stream numbers just because there are fewer really recognized players streaming at the same time. Regardless though there is something you can do and that I have done for some time to show support for players you like if you have a good connection.
When I am watching streams of sc2 I can obviously only really watch one stream, but there are usually 4-5 players that I wouldn't mind watching so to let my support show in viewer numbers I open up the stream I want to watch, but then I also open up all the other streams in separate tabs in my browser and set them all to 240p to have running in the background, mute all of them and then I watch the stream I was going to watch anyway. Obviously not something everyone might be able to do, but maybe you can run 2 streams even with a bad connection.
Atm I am watching Idra stream but I also have IPL, incontrol, suppy, tod and violet running in the background. I might not physically be able to watch all of them but I can make a point by giving them the view count still.
You're an example of that blog about people being a slave "for the sake of esports"
I don't know which blog you are talking about. If you are passionate about something you support it. I can't watch both nasl and ipl at the same time but I would watch them both if they were on at different times. It does not cost me anything to have the other stream on muted in the background while watching one. It costs me two clicks of the mouse and that is all the time it costs me. I can't say I feel like a slave, if that is the case I guess everyone that puts anything into something they care about it are slaves to the same thing. I really don't see the problem here.
I am an example of someone who is passionate about something I enjoy. Apparently you have a problem with this? I suppose everyone in the world who cares about anything should just stop giving a fuck because they are all slaves to their interests?
The fact that whomever wrote that blog is not interested in e-sports is fine with me, nor have I ever asked anyone who does not share my passion to care. You have every right to not give a fuck, so what is it to you? Are you just offended by people who care about things?
On October 22 2012 08:57 VanGarde wrote: So for those of you who have good connections, here is an actual piece of constructive advice for what you can do to promote our scene. There are so many high level sc2 pro's that stream. To some extent I think top LoL players might get more inflated stream numbers just because there are fewer really recognized players streaming at the same time. Regardless though there is something you can do and that I have done for some time to show support for players you like if you have a good connection.
When I am watching streams of sc2 I can obviously only really watch one stream, but there are usually 4-5 players that I wouldn't mind watching so to let my support show in viewer numbers I open up the stream I want to watch, but then I also open up all the other streams in separate tabs in my browser and set them all to 240p to have running in the background, mute all of them and then I watch the stream I was going to watch anyway. Obviously not something everyone might be able to do, but maybe you can run 2 streams even with a bad connection.
Atm I am watching Idra stream but I also have IPL, incontrol, suppy, tod and violet running in the background. I might not physically be able to watch all of them but I can make a point by giving them the view count still.
You're an example of that blog about people being a slave "for the sake of esports"
I don't know which blog you are talking about. If you are passionate about something you support it. I can't watch both nasl and ipl at the same time but I would watch them both if they were on at different times. It does not cost me anything to have the other stream on muted in the background while watching one. It costs me two clicks of the mouse and that is all the time it costs me. I can't say I feel like a slave, if that is the case I guess everyone that puts anything into something they care about it are slaves to the same thing. I really don't see the problem here.
On October 22 2012 08:57 VanGarde wrote: So for those of you who have good connections, here is an actual piece of constructive advice for what you can do to promote our scene. There are so many high level sc2 pro's that stream. To some extent I think top LoL players might get more inflated stream numbers just because there are fewer really recognized players streaming at the same time. Regardless though there is something you can do and that I have done for some time to show support for players you like if you have a good connection.
When I am watching streams of sc2 I can obviously only really watch one stream, but there are usually 4-5 players that I wouldn't mind watching so to let my support show in viewer numbers I open up the stream I want to watch, but then I also open up all the other streams in separate tabs in my browser and set them all to 240p to have running in the background, mute all of them and then I watch the stream I was going to watch anyway. Obviously not something everyone might be able to do, but maybe you can run 2 streams even with a bad connection.
Atm I am watching Idra stream but I also have IPL, incontrol, suppy, tod and violet running in the background. I might not physically be able to watch all of them but I can make a point by giving them the view count still.
You're an example of that blog about people being a slave "for the sake of esports"
I don't know which blog you are talking about. If you are passionate about something you support it. I can't watch both nasl and ipl at the same time but I would watch them both if they were on at different times. It does not cost me anything to have the other stream on muted in the background while watching one. It costs me two clicks of the mouse and that is all the time it costs me. I can't say I feel like a slave, if that is the case I guess everyone that puts anything into something they care about it are slaves to the same thing. I really don't see the problem here.
I am an example of someone who is passionate about something I enjoy. Apparently you have a problem with this? I suppose everyone in the world who cares about anything should just stop giving a fuck because they are all slaves to their interests?
The fact that whomever wrote that blog is not interested in e-sports is fine with me, nor have I ever asked anyone who does not share my passion to care. You have every right to not give a fuck, so what is it to you? Are you just offended by people who care about things?
You're being so desperate on making viewer counts for sc2, for what? to beat LoL?
or maybe I just don't know what passionate really means. I don't know ┐('～`；)┌
also let me quote this since I don't know if you guys really read the blog
Rather than a group of nerds who like playing Starcraft, we are now slaves beholden to the whims of a small minority of zealots who seek to proselytize SC2 like it's the second coming of chess.
On October 22 2012 08:57 VanGarde wrote: So for those of you who have good connections, here is an actual piece of constructive advice for what you can do to promote our scene. There are so many high level sc2 pro's that stream. To some extent I think top LoL players might get more inflated stream numbers just because there are fewer really recognized players streaming at the same time. Regardless though there is something you can do and that I have done for some time to show support for players you like if you have a good connection.
When I am watching streams of sc2 I can obviously only really watch one stream, but there are usually 4-5 players that I wouldn't mind watching so to let my support show in viewer numbers I open up the stream I want to watch, but then I also open up all the other streams in separate tabs in my browser and set them all to 240p to have running in the background, mute all of them and then I watch the stream I was going to watch anyway. Obviously not something everyone might be able to do, but maybe you can run 2 streams even with a bad connection.
Atm I am watching Idra stream but I also have IPL, incontrol, suppy, tod and violet running in the background. I might not physically be able to watch all of them but I can make a point by giving them the view count still.
You're an example of that blog about people being a slave "for the sake of esports"
I don't know which blog you are talking about. If you are passionate about something you support it. I can't watch both nasl and ipl at the same time but I would watch them both if they were on at different times. It does not cost me anything to have the other stream on muted in the background while watching one. It costs me two clicks of the mouse and that is all the time it costs me. I can't say I feel like a slave, if that is the case I guess everyone that puts anything into something they care about it are slaves to the same thing. I really don't see the problem here.
I am an example of someone who is passionate about something I enjoy. Apparently you have a problem with this? I suppose everyone in the world who cares about anything should just stop giving a fuck because they are all slaves to their interests?
The fact that whomever wrote that blog is not interested in e-sports is fine with me, nor have I ever asked anyone who does not share my passion to care. You have every right to not give a fuck, so what is it to you? Are you just offended by people who care about things?
You're being so desperate on making viewer counts for sc2, for what? to beat LoL?
or maybe I just don't know what passionate really means. I don't know ┐('～`；)┌
Don't be stupid. He wants the competitive scene to succeed and grow, because he likes it. So he supports it.
Gheed doesn't care about the competitive scene, he just likes playing videogames. He doesn't need to support it.
The only problem with Gheed's post is that people like you will misinterpret the message and try to apply it where it shouldn't be.
On October 22 2012 15:00 VanGarde wrote: I think you can discuss ui, cross server play, skill ceiling and skill floor, competitive play, view ability etc etc all day and in the end all of those things are only marginal influences. LoL is huge in South Korea and China, why? Because it is free to play. That is probably at the end of the day the only real reason why it has taken off so fast in cultures where most gamers still play at internet cafés. Starcraft 2 is designed for the western gaming community, LoL just happens to be more attuned to the Asian community. Can Blizzard get around this? Yeah probably but I am not 100% sure how.
Yeah. Add Lan. Garena-like private servers will take care of the rest. Popularity will definitely be boosted, whether it's financially worth it is up to Blizzard. Appears they don't think it is anyways.
No it won't be financially worth it unless they can get the money some other way, LoL is not free to play because riot love their gamers so much it is free to play because they earn more money by selling points for unlocking champions and by selling custom skins. The only way Blizzard could make sc2 free to play would be to find an equal way of earning money through micro transactions.
Okay, so they should work on micro transactions and find ways to make better returns off of esports like RIOT is doing. Blizzard seems to be having the same mind set as the music industry. Didn't we just have a thread on how pirates buy more music? Well if less people played, SC2 won't be as successful in the esports market. SC2 is not going the way of BW at the moment and unless they're procrastinating or basing future success off of faith, they should make some changes to ensure a successful future. At the moment I don't think Blizzard cares enough to make the effort anyways so it's all moot.
By the way, do you see the difference between "If you are interested, heres what I do to support Starcraft. Those interested might try the same" and "You need to do this or you are killing esports!"?
The guys post was very reasonable, didn't make demands of people who don't care as much, and didn't blame any failures on people not caring enough. You are being stupid by conflating it with 'killing esports' posts.
On October 22 2012 08:57 VanGarde wrote: So for those of you who have good connections, here is an actual piece of constructive advice for what you can do to promote our scene. There are so many high level sc2 pro's that stream. To some extent I think top LoL players might get more inflated stream numbers just because there are fewer really recognized players streaming at the same time. Regardless though there is something you can do and that I have done for some time to show support for players you like if you have a good connection.
When I am watching streams of sc2 I can obviously only really watch one stream, but there are usually 4-5 players that I wouldn't mind watching so to let my support show in viewer numbers I open up the stream I want to watch, but then I also open up all the other streams in separate tabs in my browser and set them all to 240p to have running in the background, mute all of them and then I watch the stream I was going to watch anyway. Obviously not something everyone might be able to do, but maybe you can run 2 streams even with a bad connection.
Atm I am watching Idra stream but I also have IPL, incontrol, suppy, tod and violet running in the background. I might not physically be able to watch all of them but I can make a point by giving them the view count still.
You're an example of that blog about people being a slave "for the sake of esports"
I don't know which blog you are talking about. If you are passionate about something you support it. I can't watch both nasl and ipl at the same time but I would watch them both if they were on at different times. It does not cost me anything to have the other stream on muted in the background while watching one. It costs me two clicks of the mouse and that is all the time it costs me. I can't say I feel like a slave, if that is the case I guess everyone that puts anything into something they care about it are slaves to the same thing. I really don't see the problem here.
I am an example of someone who is passionate about something I enjoy. Apparently you have a problem with this? I suppose everyone in the world who cares about anything should just stop giving a fuck because they are all slaves to their interests?
The fact that whomever wrote that blog is not interested in e-sports is fine with me, nor have I ever asked anyone who does not share my passion to care. You have every right to not give a fuck, so what is it to you? Are you just offended by people who care about things?
You're being so desperate on making viewer counts for sc2, for what? to beat LoL?
or maybe I just don't know what passionate really means. I don't know ┐('～`；)┌
What? Stop projecting whatever person you have in your mind. Where did I say that I care about beating LoL? In fact not only am I one of those who think sc2 is just fine, I also think that it is great that LoL is growing, it is expanding the industry and will serve Starcraft 2 in the long run.
But yeah I do find it meaningful to give views to the tournaments I enjoy and the player streams I enjoy. For anything that is not ppv, views is the currency in this industry. If there are 10 players streaming at the same time and 2 tournaments running I can only realistically watch one. But I want to support them all equally because I could watch any one of them. I just have to choose one, so I then choose to support the other streams for no cost to myself. There is no desperation in the slightest. Go away and be angry at the world somewhere else.
Maybe I just like the game itself because honestly I couldn't care less about the "scene" like the game, so I watch vids and streams for the good games and not the pros and the scene
On October 22 2012 15:58 namori wrote: Maybe I just like the game itself because honestly I couldn't care less about the "scene" like the game, so I watch vids and streams for the good games and not the pros and the scene
my bad.
Again, that is fine for you. Did anyone say that you were wrong to do so? Grow up.
On October 22 2012 15:58 namori wrote: Maybe I just like the game itself because honestly I couldn't care less about the "scene" like the game, so I watch vids and streams for the good games and not the pros and the scene
my bad.
Again, that is fine for you. Did anyone say that you were wrong to do so? Grow up.
I said my bad, geez what the hell this community is awful.
On October 22 2012 15:58 namori wrote: Maybe I just like the game itself because honestly I couldn't care less about the "scene" like the game, so I watch vids and streams for the good games and not the pros and the scene
my bad.
Again, that is fine for you. Did anyone say that you were wrong to do so? Grow up.
I said my bad, geez what the hell this community is awful.
Yeah there is lot of things Blizzard should fix, but trying to fight on popularity with LOL/DOTA2 is prety futile in my eyes. Its prety much same as trying to make chess more popular than soccer/hockey. One thing i fear is that blizzard will try to do that, because of all these posts about it.
If esports is not huge enough for both LOL/DOTA2 and SC2 then its just not its time. So yeah blizzard should fix the UI(which they seem to be doing) including arcade THE CASUAL in sc2 and hoping people are invested enought to care and make those CASUAL maps.
One thing people just don't seem unterstand in my opinion is that you can't assume HOTS to magicaly make WOL something different from what it is. In my opinion its suposed to expand from what we alredy have, not to change it compelitely.
no one cares whether LOL is easier than SC2. the point is that SC2 is stale as hell to play. it's linear. tedious. boring. THAT is why people are moving from SC2 to LOL. it has nothing to do with the difficulty.
On October 22 2012 17:00 TheDraken wrote: no one cares whether LOL is easier than SC2. the point is that SC2 is stale as hell to play. it's linear. tedious. boring. THAT is why people are moving from SC2 to LOL. it has nothing to do with the difficulty.
it has almost everything to do with difficulty... why do you think call of duty is so popular? its easy to pick up and play. sc2 is very unforgiving where even the slightest mis micro at any point in the game can cost you. also, in lol dota hon you can always blame your allies for whatever reason, while in sc2 its always your fault when you lose. oh yeah and its fucking free to play.
I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn.
DOTA2 is the same deal but it might be worth learning so im gonna give it a try since I have my key now (though I wish there was less of everything). But theres alot of studying to do before the game will start being any fun at all.
On October 22 2012 17:29 dpurple wrote: I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn.
DOTA2 is the same deal but it might be worth learning so im gonna give it a try since I have my key now (though I wish there was less of everything). But theres alot of studying to do before the game will start being any fun at all.
If you have even as low as 2 friends that you can consistently play with, then games like LoL and Dota becomes infinitely more enticing to play than grinding ladder on starcraft. You don't need to know what every hero does and what every item does and what build/items should each hero go for in the beginning. You just play with bunch of friends and go from there. Yes it will take hundred of games to completely get used to every heroes, but it's not like you can learn all the builds for all 3 races for starcraft in short period of time either.
On October 22 2012 17:29 dpurple wrote: I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn.
DOTA2 is the same deal but it might be worth learning so im gonna give it a try since I have my key now (though I wish there was less of everything). But theres alot of studying to do before the game will start being any fun at all.
You can start doing okay right away if you aren't facing people who have played more than 1000 games. Until you get some builds down, you won't understand why the fuck you just lost or won in SC2 and you can easily come to the conclusion that the game is just 'mass up overpowered units and A-move' (had RTS noob friends claim this).
On October 22 2012 16:18 SacredCoconut wrote: Yeah there is lot of things Blizzard should fix, but trying to fight on popularity with LOL/DOTA2 is prety futile in my eyes. Its prety much same as trying to make chess more popular than soccer/hockey. One thing i fear is that blizzard will try to do that, because of all these posts about it.
If esports is not huge enough for both LOL/DOTA2 and SC2 then its just not its time. So yeah blizzard should fix the UI(which they seem to be doing) including arcade THE CASUAL in sc2 and hoping people are invested enought to care and make those CASUAL maps.
One thing people just don't seem unterstand in my opinion is that you can't assume HOTS to magicaly make WOL something different from what it is. In my opinion its suposed to expand from what we alredy have, not to change it compelitely.
- Reaver for colossus - Lurker for Swarm host - Defiler for Infestor - Sc1 Carrier-Micro-Mechanics back - Speed upgrade for Hydras should need only Lair not Hive - Remove 250mm Cannons of Thors - Remove Reaper from Terran and move it to Protoss in changed look - Spore Crawler need Evolution Chamber again
Good Job Blizzard for done things and announcements:
- New Hots Interface - Warhound removed - Widow Mine - Baneling - Ultra-Charge - Stalker and Blink - Warp in Mechanic of Protoss and Warp Prism - Hallucination of Sentry without Tech - Multiplayer resume from replay - Multiplayer replay viewing - Unranked matchmaking - Clan/group system
On October 22 2012 17:29 dpurple wrote: I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn.
DOTA2 is the same deal but it might be worth learning so im gonna give it a try since I have my key now (though I wish there was less of everything). But theres alot of studying to do before the game will start being any fun at all.
I thought I had ladder anxiety. It turns out that I just burn out on ladder quickly. I think that ladder is actually dang tiring. I'm a masters player, and most of my friends are lower ranked. Some of them probably burn out even faster than me.
I thought that if the information came slow, and I treated this as if I had imbibed cannabis and was just....chewing LoL slowly, I may enjoy it.
I don't know, SC2 is just tiring and draining. It leaves me wanting to drop and go to sleep. After a day of work/school it always tired me out. I could never be at 100%. I love the game, it just requires a lot of downtime to keep it fresh.
To me the sc2 vs lol discussions are almost exactly the same as the bw vs sc2 discussions. If the outcome is the same, sc2 will die. A big difference is of course that blizzard sides with sc2.
On October 22 2012 17:29 dpurple wrote: I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn. .
Maybe its your personal preference. A game can't be boring when 32 m people playing it.
I don't get why people look up to LoL as the pinacle of esports atm. It's a free to play game that you can play with friends where the company that makes the game pushed huge amount of money into esports. It's the biggest bubble we have in esports atm. It's not that sc2 can't grow but people should realize that we are at a point where you can't really have a much bigger sustainable scene without something major happening. People seem to forget the past esports bubbles we've had and the games in question is quite laughable when you look back at them. As long as blizzard doesn't screw up Hots completely SC2 will be around well after Destiny's prophecies even if it may not live up to the absurd dreams of sc2 "going mainstream."
On October 22 2012 17:29 dpurple wrote: I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn.
DOTA2 is the same deal but it might be worth learning so im gonna give it a try since I have my key now (though I wish there was less of everything). But theres alot of studying to do before the game will start being any fun at all.
Well you don't need to study anything, you learn as you play. You fail and you learn from your mistakes. I have 500+ hours on DoTA 2 and the game is still fresh and exciting, because every game is different. Period. Even if both teams pick the same heroes, the circumstances can change so much from game to game, even things like who got first blood, or who got the first Roshan and managed to turn into advantage...and I'm not even getting into specific item builds for heroes.
You also die to random stuff in SC2, some obnoxious proxy gate or some other ridiculous all-ins can catch you off guard. If you aren't going to suck it up and continue to play (and try to get better), then why on Earth are you playing competitive games in the first place?
On October 22 2012 19:24 nam nam wrote: I don't get why people look up to LoL as the pinacle of esports atm. It's a free to play game that you can play with friends where the company that makes the game pushed huge amount of money into esports. It's the biggest bubble we have in esports atm. It's not that sc2 can't grow but people should realize that we are at a point where you can't really have a much bigger sustainable scene without something major happening. People seem to forget the past esports bubbles we've had and the games in question is quite laughable when you look back at them. As long as blizzard doesn't screw up Hots completely SC2 will be around well after Destiny's prophecies even if it may not live up to the absurd dreams of sc2 "going mainstream."
I'd be quite happy if sc2 always stayed with its own little scene, given that its RTS and can't compete with MOBA games. But frankly, I don't like some stuff about sc2 now. Community is great (which is why I'm still here) but game sucks. I deleted sc2 nine months ago, and its not because I'm boycotting. The game is boring. I would've left it on my computer, but I needed some disk space. There were other games like skyrim, LoL, heroes 3, bw which are still great to play from time to time. Bad I have hardly any desire to play sc2. And lately I find myself not enjoying tournaments, simply boring. Thats why I complain. Not because SC2 is not a big ESPORTS name.
On October 22 2012 17:29 dpurple wrote: I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn.
DOTA2 is the same deal but it might be worth learning so im gonna give it a try since I have my key now (though I wish there was less of everything). But theres alot of studying to do before the game will start being any fun at all.
Disregarding the gameplay
You can play it with friends, which makes it a ton more fun to play then any single player game. Its a team game, which means that the burden is either not on you or lessened when you lose. In Starcraft if you lose its all you(ladder anxiety/fear exists a lot more in Starcraft then Lol/Dota). The very nature of the game makes it more appealing to play and more socially interactive then Starcraft. In Lol/Dota you have to communicate with your team. In Starcraft often if not always a player will only typ 2 lines to his opponents, gl hf and gg. That is not social interaction at all, in Dota/LoL you are forced to play together. Not to mention that in Dota/LoL there is time to do so in between deaths, in between moving your hero from A to B, it is a LOT less stressfull to play. In SC2 you constantly need to be performing actions. Casuals play the game to relax, not to be stressed out even more. SC2 is an extremly stressfull game compared to Mobas. In a lot of cases it doesn't even matter how the game is going, as long as you can interact with your friends via the ingame chat or voice communication you can make it fun.
Hotbid, me, flamewheel and Mr Hoon were watching the Starladder season 3 finals together, however the following scenario can easily take place when we are playing the game itself.
There is no way you can have this in Starcraft 2 because its simply a 1v1 game.
On the gameplay
There are 3 races for Starcraft, yet there are over a 100 champions and heroes for the other games, and each of them can be build differently with items. In fact not only do you have 100 champions and heroes, you also have an incredible amount of combination of heroes/champions. Playing different lanes, playing different team setups in terms of heroes, it offers so much diversity. While Starcraft has more units per race each game is actually quite similair for the casual player PoV. You use the same units every game and relativly the same unit compositions. While this is not really a problem for those who like it, casuals want diversity, Starcraft has little of that. Starcraft2 SHOULD have that in the Custom Game section, which as of this moment is pretty much dead or was never alive.
You make a good point on the amount of champions/heroes you have to learn, however this is also somewhat the same in Starcraft. Remember that at a basic level in both games people are really bad, like really really bad. For one to be decent in Starcraft it requires constant training of macro mechanics, strategies and on the fly decision making, both games require a lot of knowledge yet in Starcraft the burden of it is all on you. Although the Moba community is notorious for flaming you can ASK the people in your game for tips if you are new. Remember that at a basic level in both Moba's people are fucking atrocious, but that is fine because so are you.
Lastly the learning part in LoL/Dota is a learning experience, once you encounter that hero once you will know roughly what the opponent does, remember that they only have 4 skills. In LoL when you get killed you will see what killed you and Riot gives you general tips on how to deal with this. LoL(Dota has it up to a certain degree) also has champions/heroes classified in certain catagories, in LoL this is AP mid, AD, Support, Jungle and Bruiser(or AP top), a lot of these have somewhat similair skills or atleast are supposed to be played somewhat the same way, this makes it a lot easier for people to understand even newer heroes/champions. People are casuals but they are not retards, when that Sand King stuns underneath you you will know next time that he has it and that you have to take it into account.
Blizzard is probably going to monetize sc2 with the help of blizdota. Blizz dota looks to be free to play and run on the sc2 engine. Meaning people would have to be online on Battle to play. Customisation similar to what dota 2 have can be implmented. Sc2 games might give u items u can use in the dota game. It seems that blizzard is alredy trying to target teh. More casual crowd with therer Moba game. Average of 20 minut matches with more focus on team engagement. We are better of comparing dota2,lol and blizzallstar then putting a rts in a moba category. Its different kind of entertainment. Biggest 1vs1 game right now is sc2 and there really isn't any contenders for that right now. That being said the social aspect needs ton be worked on. What we need is chat functions in the luncher for sc2. Maybe 10 years ago people where in game using the chat functions but things have changed. People dont communicate in dota 2 in game they communicate off game on the steam engine. Since most games connect u to steam onine u always end up finding people.
I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn.
DOTA2 is the same deal but it might be worth learning so im gonna give it a try since I have my key now (though I wish there was less of everything). But theres alot of studying to do before the game will start being any fun at all.
Disregarding the gameplay
You can play it with friends, which makes it a ton more fun to play then any single player game. Its a team game, which means that the burden is either not on you or lessened when you lose. In Starcraft if you lose its all you(ladder anxiety/fear exists a lot more in Starcraft then Lol/Dota). The very nature of the game makes it more appealing to play and more socially interactive then Starcraft. In Lol/Dota you have to communicate with your team. In Starcraft often if not always a player will only typ 2 lines to his opponents, gl hf and gg. That is not social interaction at all, in Dota/LoL you are forced to play together. Not to mention that in Dota/LoL there is time to do so in between deaths, in between moving your hero from A to B, it is a LOT less stressfull to play. In SC2 you constantly need to be performing actions. Casuals play the game to relax, not to be stressed out even more. SC2 is an extremly stressfull game compared to Mobas. In a lot of cases it doesn't even matter how the game is going, as long as you can interact with your friends via the ingame chat or voice communication you can make it fun.
Hotbid, me, flamewheel and Mr Hoon were watching the Starladder season 3 finals together, however the following scenario can easily take place when we are playing the game itself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ft7CnEzEBo
There is no way you can have this in Starcraft 2 because its simply a 1v1 game.
On the gameplay
There are 3 races for Starcraft, yet there are over a 100 champions and heroes for the other games, and each of them can be build differently with items. In fact not only do you have 100 champions and heroes, you also have an incredible amount of combination of heroes/champions. Playing different lanes, playing different team setups in terms of heroes, it offers so much diversity. While Starcraft has more units per race each game is actually quite similair for the casual player PoV. You use the same units every game and relativly the same unit compositions. While this is not really a problem for those who like it, casuals want diversity, Starcraft has little of that. Starcraft2 SHOULD have that in the Custom Game section, which as of this moment is pretty much dead or was never alive.
You make a good point on the amount of champions/heroes you have to learn, however this is also somewhat the same in Starcraft. Remember that at a basic level in both games people are really bad, like really really bad. For one to be decent in Starcraft it requires constant training of macro mechanics, strategies and on the fly decision making, both games require a lot of knowledge yet in Starcraft the burden of it is all on you. Although the Moba community is notorious for flaming you can ASK the people in your game for tips if you are new. Remember that at a basic level in both Moba's people are fucking atrocious, but that is fine because so are you.
Lastly the learning part in LoL/Dota is a learning experience, once you encounter that hero once you will know roughly what the opponent does, remember that they only have 4 skills. In LoL when you get killed you will see what killed you and Riot gives you general tips on how to deal with this. LoL(Dota has it up to a certain degree) also has champions/heroes classified in certain catagories, in LoL this is AP mid, AD, Support, Jungle and Bruiser(or AP top), a lot of these have somewhat similair skills or atleast are supposed to be played somewhat the same way, this makes it a lot easier for people to understand even newer heroes/champions. People are casuals but they are not retards, when that Sand King stuns underneath you you will know next time that he has it and that you have to take it into account
.
You make some really good points. DoTA and its clones(LoL, HoN etc.) are much more social games. You communicate with your team, share tactics and strategy, and if nothing there are 9 other people you can chat with in the game no matter what. The diversity is also as you've put it, a big part of what makes the game so fun. There are so many hero/skill combinations possible to combo with, and with that kind of diversity the game makes you feel like anything is possible as long as you play right. You said casuals like diversity, but I don't agree with that statement. I think noone would like dull, bland, one dimensional games where what you need to do to win is pretty limited and there isn't much depth. I don't think why anyone would NOT want diversity.
On October 18 2012 01:27 IdrA wrote: im not sure if its what destiny's aiming for but you can have a difficult, competitive game and still have a good casual experience. competitive players dont need their hand held by the interface, theyre going to go into the game. go to the ladder. play the game. all they need is for the actual 1v1 portion of the game to be difficult enough that it can be a legit competition. casual players are the ones who'll get scared off if things arent easy and fun and intuitive since they can just as easily go play the flavor of the month shooter or adventure game that's tailored to them.
the problem happens when blizzard tries to do this shitty middle ground where they emphasize competitive play but then try to make it easy enough that non competitive players can do it "well"
Completely agree with this
Absolutely agreed
I agree. I said this before but the (traditional) RTS genre is dying. Catering to the casuals won't do anything. They'd just swarm to a different more fun game.
If I had a choice of playing WarCraft III vs Dota, which would I pick? Dota. And the masses agreed.
WC3 is a lot more casual "focused" than SC2 is. 4v4s were actually fun in WC3 because you used heroes and leveled them up (and also it wasn't a death ball into 5 seconds of some side getting destroyed instantly like SC2 is).
WC3 had way more custom game focus than even BW did (of course, most of them ended up being Dota).
WC3 had a lot of stuff Destiny talks about but yet it didn't really catch on and it sort of failed (or at least, WC3 didn't even put a dent into the BW scene).
If WC3 couldn't do it, then SC2 probably can't either.
BW thrived because it had little competition at the time (MMOs weren't mainstream back then, shooters like C.S. were for for only those with really good computers, there was no dota, etc).
RTS genre in general is dying. It needs a revamp. Dota works in sort like a card game similar to magic the gathering - The game changes constantly and new stuff (heroes) is added regularly.
Should that be done for SC2 too? Should players have the option of picking maybe 30 out of 150+ units (per race) which all have different abilities and crazy stuff?
Yes, this will destroy SC2 balance (to an extent) but it works for Dota (eventually only the better units, items, or heroes are used in comp but in pubs, most of the items or heroes are viable).
tl;dr - (Traditional) RTS genre. SC2 needs a massive revamp to make it more popular to the masses. WC3 had nearly everything Destiny talked about yet it's pro scene and eSports-ness didn't catch on that much (it was popular somewhat but barely). (Also most people ended up playing Dota over WC3.)
Even if SC2 was made easier to play even more... people we just go to Dota because it's a more fun game overall.
How the game can be made more casual does not = amount of players it has. It has to be casual and easy to get to "and" competitive (in terms of fun) compared to other games on the market (Dota and LoL are both free to play, with Dota being more *free to play than LoL).
*You don't have to buy heroes or anything in Dota (compared to LoL where you have to buy champs to play with them). Only thing "pay" in Dota is the items (which most drop randomly after games anyway).
tl;dr #2 - SC2 has to compete in casual and fun factor with Dota, no questions asked. There isn't "SC2 and Dota are completely different games", the question is "which game is more fun"?
Some times, people play a game regardless of genre. In that case, you need to compete with them on the fun factor overall rather than stay in your own genre and compete with others in your own genre. So it's SC2 vs Dota, not SC2 vs other (Traditional) RTS games. At this point, SC2 should be it's own game (traditional RTS has basically died). Few people really play traditional RTS games anymore (it's kind of a dead genre, it's not fun anymore compared to FPS, MMOs, or Dota).
On October 22 2012 17:00 TheDraken wrote: no one cares whether LOL is easier than SC2. the point is that SC2 is stale as hell to play. it's linear. tedious. boring. THAT is why people are moving from SC2 to LOL. it has nothing to do with the difficulty.
it has almost everything to do with difficulty... why do you think call of duty is so popular? its easy to pick up and play. sc2 is very unforgiving where even the slightest mis micro at any point in the game can cost you. also, in lol dota hon you can always blame your allies for whatever reason, while in sc2 its always your fault when you lose. oh yeah and its fucking free to play.
maybe, just maybe you're confusing difficulty/complexity with fun
On October 22 2012 17:00 TheDraken wrote: no one cares whether LOL is easier than SC2. the point is that SC2 is stale as hell to play. it's linear. tedious. boring. THAT is why people are moving from SC2 to LOL. it has nothing to do with the difficulty.
it has almost everything to do with difficulty... why do you think call of duty is so popular? its easy to pick up and play. sc2 is very unforgiving where even the slightest mis micro at any point in the game can cost you. also, in lol dota hon you can always blame your allies for whatever reason, while in sc2 its always your fault when you lose. oh yeah and its fucking free to play.
maybe, just maybe you're confusing difficulty/complexity with fun
Yeah people have a lot of fun playing difficult games like Dark Souls and stuff. It's definitely possible to make a game fun and challenging. SC2 just isn't that game. It could be, but it's on Blizzard to make it so.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
i agree with you but this is what the league system is for. ill accept i cant macro as good as someone in 2 leagues higher than me, but i understand what ive got to do. its really painful to watch a replay see my scouting and doing the right tech up for what i saw, to see someone who didnt even scout but just sent stuff and had more stuff!. At the same time i dont want this game making any easier in that respect as when you get to the top level im sure the mechanics are just there then the real strat comes in. I play guitar very well and i dont think twice now about reconstructing megadeth solos, i know the scales they utilise and over time the timings and style they approach it, surely this macroing technique is just the same so that it becomes muscle memory and just the way you play.
i think what you says matters but again, its your league which forgives you unless ur at top but if ur not playing well you deserve to lose.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
i agree with you but this is what the league system is for. ill accept i cant macro as good as someone in 2 leagues higher than me, but i understand what ive got to do. its really painful to watch a replay see my scouting and doing the right tech up for what i saw, to see someone who didnt even scout but just sent stuff and had more stuff!. At the same time i dont want this game making any easier in that respect as when you get to the top level im sure the mechanics are just there then the real strat comes in. I play guitar very well and i dont think twice now about reconstructing megadeth solos, i know the scales they utilise and over time the timings and style they approach it, surely this macroing technique is just the same so that it becomes muscle memory and just the way you play.
i think what you says matters but again, its your league which forgives you unless ur at top but if ur not playing well you deserve to lose.
with all due respect to your post, casuals (roughly 95% of gamers) don't watch replays, and they don't analyze their mistakes. They click 'FIND MATCH' and play again. After playing 10 games, they might see some pattern why they losing and assuming they are not totally stupid they will try to adapt.
Honestly, there is nothing wrong with dumbing down the game. There are plenty variables in RTS game (its not like ping pong) and lots of room for improvement. Therefore there will be always someone who will be the best. And we will pay all our money to watch him play.
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better.
If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you.
As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested.
no, it doesnt. the casual scene depends on blizzard. the pro scene depends on viewers and sponsors. there could be a complete absence of a casual scene and the pro scene could still be booming
I can't agree with most of you guyz, the fact that sc2 is unique and is the best game that will ever be played is that the skill level is extremely high, one mistake and you can lose the game. So as a spectator it's way more interesting to watch starcraft over any other games.
I get bored watching LOL, watching that champion last hitting for 10 minutes I mean some people watch LOL because that's the game they play but does that pull out some amazing stuff very interresting to watch ? Yes but very few compared to starcraft. You cannot compare like baseball with hockey or soccer with tennis, it's different genre , different kind and none of them should try to change their aspects in order to please a larger public.
Maybe the most interresting part would be add a 4th race to starcraft, just to increase the amount of matchups, builds but that would be pain to balance and less likely possible atm. LOL will create new champs over and over but I think overall thats what will kill the game because if you keep creating champions over and over the more you create the less different or innovative they will be. You can easily notice how new champions always have two similar abilities copied from other champs and soon you get bored of after awhile.
Starcraft is in the right direction, adding blizzard dota will bring casual gamers, also non-ranked ladder will encourage noobs to play more and more stats will help noobs whine about the game even more so rather than thinking they are bad , it will provide them biased stats to rely on their lack of skills and this will keep them playing.
Overall blizzard taking right decisions, they just need to make HOTS a more interresting game and we're good to go for a few years.
On October 23 2012 02:04 FrankWalls wrote: no, it doesnt. the casual scene depends on blizzard. the pro scene depends on viewers and sponsors. there could be a complete absence of a casual scene and the pro scene could still be booming
Heh the majority of audience don't even play competitively in SC2, and its dwindling.
people just love doing cool stuff, and u can't do cool stuff in sc2 when you've played 20 games and reached gold league, because from there on sc2 doesn't encourage you to do cool stuff, but to "play by the rules" so to speak. yes, you could stay in bronze forever, but thats not fun either.
in dota, because it's a team game and you have hundreds of cool heros with crazy abilities, you can do crazy shit all the time and be good at the same time. its more fun trying out new team compositions and crazy strats with your friends than analyzing your replays and grinding build orders, build orders you didn't even come up with, because when you try to come up with someting in sc2, it'll probably fail. you can't come up with things in sc2, most of the time you try to copy the pros, and thats not fun. in dota, you can do crazy new stuff almost every game. the only thing thats fun in sc2 is basically winning, but the process of doing it, i.e. playing the game, is not that much fun imo.
On October 23 2012 02:04 FrankWalls wrote: no, it doesnt. the casual scene depends on blizzard. the pro scene depends on viewers and sponsors. there could be a complete absence of a casual scene and the pro scene could still be booming
Heh the majority of audience don't even play competitively in SC2, and its dwindling.
thats what i mean, the audience doesnt have to play. ideally, the audience would open up to more non-players, and as long as theres an audience, there will be a competitive scene. the two scenes are very very unrelated, and to say one depends on the other is completely untrue
Not sure why anyone who never played SC2 would become a viewer.
I only watch because I used to play. I didn't wake up one day and say "Hey, I need something to follow, let me randomly look up a competitively-played computer game and start watching streams".
That's why I don't watch Dota etc, because I have no real appreciation for what's going on.
I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote: I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
Are you serious? I am a massive football (soccer y'all) supporter, yet I very, very rarely play. It can go years between every time. I have also never done winter sports, but I follow the Winter Olympics, same with Summer Olympics. I am not an MMA fighter, yet I follow the UFC. The list goes on.
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better.
If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you.
As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested.
I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics.
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote: I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
Are you serious? I am a massive football (soccer y'all) supporter, yet I very, very rarely play. It can go years between every time. I have also never done winter sports, but I follow the Winter Olympics, same with Summer Olympics. I am not an MMA fighter, yet I follow the UFC. The list goes on.
You can't apply that logic to video games. Its very easy to understand whats happening on football pitch or two man beating shit out of eachother. I've never played HoN, and I cant understand a shit when I am watching it.
On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote: I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
Are you serious? I am a massive football (soccer y'all) supporter, yet I very, very rarely play. It can go years between every time. I have also never done winter sports, but I follow the Winter Olympics, same with Summer Olympics. I am not an MMA fighter, yet I follow the UFC. The list goes on.
Well, I'm not saying it's a binary thing. I'm saying that I believe that people generally come to watch a sport because they have played it, but I take your point.
In any case, you didn't have to go seek out Football - it was a part of life from an early age (you did play it as a kid right?). Winter sports were also a standard part of many countries' ways of life, long before they ever became a sport; and who didn't do athletics at school?
If you have to go looking for a sport that has complex non-evident rules that you were not exposed to as a natural part of growing up, then I think you are not likely to go looking for SC2 as your viewing choice. It seems like the figures bear that out.
On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote: I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
What?
I think most sports are watched by a majority of "non-players". You really think most people out there drive Formula 1 race cars? You think most people have played Tennis? Nope. And even those that have played, it's usually a thing in their past that they maybe did in their childhood or highschool years casually.
Very few people are actually athletes and understand a game from the players perspective.
A *lot* of people watch SC2 that have never played or only played very casually.
To me, SC2 is a much more approachable game from a spectators point of view than LoL or DOTA. It's two armies trying to beat eachother... you don't have to notice all the cute micro and techniques to understand it ( though, that makes it better). The same thing that makes LoL so appealing to casuals, the tons of items and heroes to play with, makes it a nightmare to watch. I understand MOBA (and play DOTA quite a bit), but I still have a very hard time understanding LoL at all when I attempt to watch.
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better.
If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you.
As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested.
I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics.
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
Except for people like Destiny, it is DEFINITELY a job. These threads are getting moronic at best. The game is not dying, HotS will not be a failure. Blizzard game expansions have always improved upon the original (minus WoW Cata, not sure about that one), and the people who have bought a Blizzard game are more likely to buy an expansion upon a previously existing Blizzard game. The company's name alone still has buying power.
As for LoL vs SC2, I play and watch both. With a lot of my time. Granted not as much as I used to with me having to search for graduate school but when I can I'll throw a couple games down on the SC2 ladder or maybe play the campaign a bit and I play LoL with friends. As for "player mechanics are always important in rts" I would argue player mechanics are actually important in all games that have an esport attached. Yes Starcraft might seem like its more "mechanically demanding" but I can say for a fact that playing certain roles in LoL are also mechanically demanding.
Enough of the doomsday shit, just enjoy your game and support the games you like watching and playing. SC isn't going anywhere as the previous decade and a half has shown.
On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote: I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
Are you serious? I am a massive football (soccer y'all) supporter, yet I very, very rarely play. It can go years between every time. I have also never done winter sports, but I follow the Winter Olympics, same with Summer Olympics. I am not an MMA fighter, yet I follow the UFC. The list goes on.
You can't apply that logic to video games. Its very easy to understand whats happening on football pitch or two man beating shit out of eachother. I've never played HoN, and I cant understand a shit when I am watching it.
it's not at all difficult to understand whats going on in sc2 from a spectator point of view
On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote: I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft.
On October 20 2012 04:37 rift wrote: I'd like the community to be smaller and more mature. Fewer tournaments would be nice as well.
That's fine, but then don't be surprised to see MVP, Flash, or whoever player you think is great and the best of the world switch to lol or dota 2, because it pays a lot more.
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better.
If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you.
As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested.
I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics.
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
People on TL are obsessed with mechanically demanding games because being able to control your units are part of good gameplay and separates those who care from those who don’t. The only way to remove mechanically demands from the game is to make things more automated, which has its own problems. Personally, I don’t want to lose to players who don’t put in the time to get good at the game.
If you want a game based on decision making, play Ruse Ubisoft. The game allows for no micro and only requires to you manage a minimal economy. Most game degrades down into a slug fest where armies smash off each other until one side gets slightly outflanked and the game ends. It is all about out thinking your opponent, but can get a bit stale. Superior Commander 2 also has limited mechanical demands and allows a lot of fun stuff. There are games out there that are not mechanically demanding.
If you don’t want to get good mechanics and learn how to get better at a game, refine out a build to a razors edge or learn when a timing will hit right before you opponent gets the influx of units or upgrade they need; don’t play SC2. There are other games out there for you, but SC2 is not one of them.
On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote: I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft.
A mechanically demanding game will never make it into masses. Hence no viewers and no esports.
Some people around here are right, its the community who are killing sc2. I'm done with this discussion.
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better.
If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you.
As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested.
I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics.
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
People on TL are obsessed with mechanically demanding games because being able to control your units are part of good gameplay and separates those who care from those who don’t. The only way to remove mechanically demands from the game is to make things more automated, which has its own problems. Personally, I don’t want to lose to players who don’t put in the time to get good at the game.
If you want a game based on decision making, play Ruse Ubisoft. The game allows for no micro and only requires to you manage a minimal economy. Most game degrades down into a slug fest where armies smash off each other until one side gets slightly outflanked and the game ends. It is all about out thinking your opponent, but can get a bit stale. Superior Commander 2 also has limited mechanical demands and allows a lot of fun stuff. There are games out there that are not mechanically demanding.
If you don’t want to get good mechanics and learn how to get better at a game, refine out a build to a razors edge or learn when a timing will hit right before you opponent gets the influx of units or upgrade they need; don’t play SC2. There are other games out there for you, but SC2 is not one of them.
I think you refuse to undertand that I don't want mecanics to be removed completely . Reread my posts pls. I want decisions to be as much important as mecanics at least. or even more. I don't want SC2 to be like Civilization.
On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote: I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft.
Personally, this is what makes me feel compelled to say SC is more of an eSport than most other games. Games like SC, Counterstrike, and Quake where the difference between Pro and the average Jo is intense physical conditioning, are the ones I'm pretty proud to say to my friends "yeah, this is legit eSports". Clearly I'm wrong on the matter, since LoL seems to be the only game standing tall, but it doesn't feel right to consider something a real eSport just because all the money is there. (it feels more like a game show rather than a spectator sport). =/
On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote: I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft.
A mechanically demanding game will never make it into masses. Hence no viewers and no esports.
Some people around here are right, its the community who are killing sc2. I'm done with this discussion.
Then so be it! I'd rather have a game that I enjoy, that has integrity, than a game that appeals to the masses. Why should I change the game I know and love so that it appeals to others?
Some people are way too enthralled with this idea that SC2 needs to have the biggest pro scene. Maybe we should find our niche and stick with it.
I am getting tired of these now numerous posts about how blizzard has failed or how much the game sucks now!
First of all, yes the game needs a lot of work still, and the custom game system could be improved a lot. And yes we need more casuals to play of course! its all win win in that category i know i know! And yes SC2 could become a great e-sport like one we have never seen, i agree on all the damn points except that SC2 is doomed.
First of all, how big was the BW scene again? HUGE - o wait that was ONLY in Korea! How much has the SC community exploded after WoL? - a whole lot!
We have now more big (money) tournaments for SC2 (again outside of Korea) than there ever was for BW We have more full time foreign pro's than there ever was for BW We have more posters on TL (actually i would love to see some stats on TL pre WL and now - userbase and ppd and so on) We have a giant collective prize-pool Destiny is making money doing it! Bar-crafts anyone? Pros on Salaries traveling the world on a monthly friggin basis! FLASH PLAYING SC2!!!!
I mean look at what we have! Is is perfect? NO, can we make it perfect YES!
Actually i would say we have been pretty saturated with success - its not the same dollars or viewers as LoL/Dota i agree - but it IS a whole lot more than BW!
And you have to remember that what Valve is doing for Dota - Blizzard could do for SC2 ( and i hope they do!) The International might have had a million dollar price pool - but Valve made that happen! LoL might have more viewers but they use a in-client stream!
I mean the whole SC2 scene is literally build by the community (WCS and Blizzcon helps sure) And if things improve from Blizzards side, and i am sure it will, we are going to see SC2 steadily rising to the top among exclusive prestigious e sports! We can and have to do better!
We need to BELIEVE it can be great! We need to WANT it to be great!
And we need to STOP spiraling each other into thinking that SC2 will just die soon. I agree with Destiny and the tons of other posters, but we NEED to remind each other what we have already achieved!
We need congratulate each other and give positive feedback and constructive criticism to each other and Blizzard!
WE ARE SUPERSTARS! YOU ALL ROCK! AND I LOVE YOU! WE DON'T WANT OR NEED DOTA/LOL WE JUST NEED EACH OTHER! PEACE AND LOVE AND STARCRAFT!
On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote: I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
What?
I think most sports are watched by a majority of "non-players". You really think most people out there drive Formula 1 race cars? You think most people have played Tennis? Nope. And even those that have played, it's usually a thing in their past that they maybe did in their childhood or highschool years casually.
Very few people are actually athletes and understand a game from the players perspective.
A *lot* of people watch SC2 that have never played or only played very casually.
To me, SC2 is a much more approachable game from a spectators point of view than LoL or DOTA. It's two armies trying to beat eachother... you don't have to notice all the cute micro and techniques to understand it ( though, that makes it better). The same thing that makes LoL so appealing to casuals, the tons of items and heroes to play with, makes it a nightmare to watch. I understand MOBA (and play DOTA quite a bit), but I still have a very hard time understanding LoL at all when I attempt to watch.
Well, I guess I didn't make my point clear:
If you play something, you appreciate and understand it, and it's a natural step to look to see how people who are really good at it perform.
It's not whether you are a player "right now" or even a top performer. Everyone was an athlete at school, most people drive a car or at least understand how cars work. Most people have played a game where they hit a ball with a stick of some kind.
My point is that if you are not exposed to the sport as part of your life (play it; do the same actions yourself etc) then WHY would you go looking for it? WHY would you take all that time to learn the complexities? This isn't "that car is faster than this one", or "that guy ran faster than this guy".
MOST people won't, and the viewer numbers bear that out. Otherwise how do you explain that SC2 doesn't get the same viewers as LoL or Dota2?
On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote: I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
What?
I think most sports are watched by a majority of "non-players". You really think most people out there drive Formula 1 race cars? You think most people have played Tennis? Nope. And even those that have played, it's usually a thing in their past that they maybe did in their childhood or highschool years casually.
Very few people are actually athletes and understand a game from the players perspective.
A *lot* of people watch SC2 that have never played or only played very casually.
To me, SC2 is a much more approachable game from a spectators point of view than LoL or DOTA. It's two armies trying to beat eachother... you don't have to notice all the cute micro and techniques to understand it ( though, that makes it better). The same thing that makes LoL so appealing to casuals, the tons of items and heroes to play with, makes it a nightmare to watch. I understand MOBA (and play DOTA quite a bit), but I still have a very hard time understanding LoL at all when I attempt to watch.
Well, I guess I didn't make my point clear:
If you play something, you appreciate and understand it, and it's a natural step to look to see how people who are really good at it perform.
It's not whether you are a player "right now" or even a top performer. Everyone was an athlete at school, most people drive a car or at least understand how cars work. Most people have played a game where they hit a ball with a stick of some kind.
My point is that if you are not exposed to the sport as part of your life (play it; do the same actions yourself etc) then WHY would you go looking for it? WHY would you take all that time to learn the complexities? This isn't "that car is faster than this one", or "that guy ran faster than this guy".
MOST people won't, and the viewer numbers bear that out. Otherwise how do you explain that SC2 doesn't get the same viewers as LoL or Dota2?
I get your point, that people can relate to something similar to what they've played. But, I can say the same thing about videogames. If you've played videogames growing up, you're going to be able to easier relate to watching eSports.
Also, just want to point out that DOTA2 does *not* get more viewers than SC2. That's a misconception that is continually spread around. It has more peak viewers for its one big tourney. On a day to day basis and counting all the major events SC2 has every year, it far outpaces DOTA2. Is that likely to be the case when DOTA2 is actually released? I don't really know.
But, as to LoL- Yes, more people watch it... and yes, that almost certainly is because more people play it. I get that, but I don't think there is anything we can do to change that. LoL is simply more appealing to most people as a casual game to play. We can do things to improve SC2 and make it more accessible to people, but we can't change everything about the game and hope to beat LoL. Two and a Half Men gets a lot more viewers than Boardwalk Empire or Game of Thrones... but the latter fill their own niche and would not have the viewers they do if they tried to appeal to a broader base. Not the best analogy, but I'm just trying to state that SC2 can have a place even without being the biggest game on the block.
Lets be known for being the most elite, prestigious game with the highest skill level. Lets be the game that serious gamers go to when they graduate from MOBA. We might not have the biggest prize pools, but we can still exist and thrive.
The success of LoL does not mean the death of SC2.
On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote: I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft.
A mechanically demanding game will never make it into masses. Hence no viewers and no esports.
Some people around here are right, its the community who are killing sc2. I'm done with this discussion.
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better.
If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you.
As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested.
I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics.
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
People on TL are obsessed with mechanically demanding games because being able to control your units are part of good gameplay and separates those who care from those who don’t. The only way to remove mechanically demands from the game is to make things more automated, which has its own problems. Personally, I don’t want to lose to players who don’t put in the time to get good at the game.
If you want a game based on decision making, play Ruse Ubisoft. The game allows for no micro and only requires to you manage a minimal economy. Most game degrades down into a slug fest where armies smash off each other until one side gets slightly outflanked and the game ends. It is all about out thinking your opponent, but can get a bit stale. Superior Commander 2 also has limited mechanical demands and allows a lot of fun stuff. There are games out there that are not mechanically demanding.
If you don’t want to get good mechanics and learn how to get better at a game, refine out a build to a razors edge or learn when a timing will hit right before you opponent gets the influx of units or upgrade they need; don’t play SC2. There are other games out there for you, but SC2 is not one of them.
I think you refuse to undertand that I don't want mecanics to be removed completely . Reread my posts pls. I want decisions to be as much important as mecanics at least. or even more. I don't want SC2 to be like Civilization.
I did read your post, it was not that long. I responded with games that RTS games where decision making is 80% of the game and mechanics are 20%. I don’t think they are very competitive or enjoyable to watch, but they are out there in the world and available. I like playing them against friends, but that is about it. There are few, if any games, like SC2.
If you don’t like practicing your macro or getting better at dropping sweet force fields, there are other games for you. If you want to beat people who have put more time and effort into getting good at SC2 because you made a “better decision”, there are going to be a ton of people who think you should have to back it up with mechanics.
The success of LoL does not mean the death of SC2.
I totally agree.
I'm coming from the viewpoint that unless more casuals are in the game, there will be both fewer viewers, and fewer people for the pro's to be developed from.
It's the kids who play the game (at first casually), find out they're really good, see the opportunity (or their parents maybe who see it) and then strive to be good at it - they make the pro scene.
Fewer casuals = fewer viewers (I believe) = smaller pool of talent = fewer, lower-quality pro's.
I don't really think anyone would move from a high-paying job in a moba to a game that's harder to master, has fewer viewers and so pays less. SC2 has to generate is OWN pro's from its young casuals.
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
While I disagree with the premise that other suggestions won't attract casuals, I do get where you're coming from.
Ladder gameplay isn't casual friendly. This is true. But making ladder gameplay more fun while keeping the skill ceiling high isn't something that can easily be done.
What Destiny was aiming at with his post was that BW didn't put an emphasis on ladder nearly as much as SC2 does. If Ladder is so unforgiving to casuals, then WHY THE HELL IS THE FIRST THING A CASUAL IS FACED WITH IS LADDER?
Even IdrA started off playing a more forgiving version of BW (BGH) and then slowly worked his way up to harder maps. Heck, he could have started with that DBZ map for all we know and then went into BGH.
On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote: I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft.
A mechanically demanding game will never make it into masses. Hence no viewers and no esports.
Some people around here are right, its the community who are killing sc2. I'm done with this discussion.
On October 23 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:
On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:
On October 23 2012 02:03 Plansix wrote:
On October 23 2012 01:42 bokeevboke wrote:
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better.
If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you.
As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested.
I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics.
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
People on TL are obsessed with mechanically demanding games because being able to control your units are part of good gameplay and separates those who care from those who don’t. The only way to remove mechanically demands from the game is to make things more automated, which has its own problems. Personally, I don’t want to lose to players who don’t put in the time to get good at the game.
If you want a game based on decision making, play Ruse Ubisoft. The game allows for no micro and only requires to you manage a minimal economy. Most game degrades down into a slug fest where armies smash off each other until one side gets slightly outflanked and the game ends. It is all about out thinking your opponent, but can get a bit stale. Superior Commander 2 also has limited mechanical demands and allows a lot of fun stuff. There are games out there that are not mechanically demanding.
If you don’t want to get good mechanics and learn how to get better at a game, refine out a build to a razors edge or learn when a timing will hit right before you opponent gets the influx of units or upgrade they need; don’t play SC2. There are other games out there for you, but SC2 is not one of them.
I think you refuse to undertand that I don't want mecanics to be removed completely . Reread my posts pls. I want decisions to be as much important as mecanics at least. or even more. I don't want SC2 to be like Civilization.
I did read your post, it was not that long. I responded with games that RTS games where decision making is 80% of the game and mechanics are 20%. I don’t think they are very competitive or enjoyable to watch, but they are out there in the world and available. I like playing them against friends, but that is about it. There are few, if any games, like SC2.
If you don’t like practicing your macro or getting better at dropping sweet force fields, there are other games for you. If you want to beat people who have put more time and effort into getting good at SC2 because you made a “better decision”, there are going to be a ton of people who think you should have to back it up with mechanics.
If I'm understanding you correctly, SC2 is about working hard and feeling the sweet taste of victory, and being rewarded for your efforts. I can't help but to ask, do you even consider it as a game? Or is it something to prove yourself? If it is a game for you, please name another game where priority is working hard rather than having fun (except professionals ofc, because we're not talking about them).
Consider this. When I was in gold league/plat/diamond I used to 1/1/1 every TvP. I somewhat practiced this build a lot and had like 80% winrate. It was all about mecanics, there was hardly any decision making. I knew exactly timings and slight deviations in compo depending on what protoss was doing. So I perfected it and had my wins. And I asked myself, wtf I'm doing? am I having fun? NO. Am I wasting my time learning something stupid? YES.
On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote: I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
What?
I think most sports are watched by a majority of "non-players". You really think most people out there drive Formula 1 race cars? You think most people have played Tennis? Nope. And even those that have played, it's usually a thing in their past that they maybe did in their childhood or highschool years casually.
Very few people are actually athletes and understand a game from the players perspective.
A *lot* of people watch SC2 that have never played or only played very casually.
To me, SC2 is a much more approachable game from a spectators point of view than LoL or DOTA. It's two armies trying to beat eachother... you don't have to notice all the cute micro and techniques to understand it ( though, that makes it better). The same thing that makes LoL so appealing to casuals, the tons of items and heroes to play with, makes it a nightmare to watch. I understand MOBA (and play DOTA quite a bit), but I still have a very hard time understanding LoL at all when I attempt to watch.
Well, I guess I didn't make my point clear:
If you play something, you appreciate and understand it, and it's a natural step to look to see how people who are really good at it perform.
It's not whether you are a player "right now" or even a top performer. Everyone was an athlete at school, most people drive a car or at least understand how cars work. Most people have played a game where they hit a ball with a stick of some kind.
My point is that if you are not exposed to the sport as part of your life (play it; do the same actions yourself etc) then WHY would you go looking for it? WHY would you take all that time to learn the complexities? This isn't "that car is faster than this one", or "that guy ran faster than this guy".
MOST people won't, and the viewer numbers bear that out. Otherwise how do you explain that SC2 doesn't get the same viewers as LoL or Dota2?
its cool that you try BUT there are some REAL problems with the GAME that we told them since sc2 came out and they STIL didn't listen
and i think destiny said it brillant about how we ARE depended on the casual scene. and there is not a clear seperation in the game itself for casual and competitve gamers
the game thourgh the ladder system and ui WANTS you to be competitive and stuff. but it ain't working.
On October 20 2012 04:26 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Way better on point than his recent post. He is 100% right. However I'd like to note that the average age of LOL players is probably a lot younger than SC2. So SC2 people probably have more buying power. Anyway this does not make up for the huge difference in viewer base.
I think you're wrong, actually SC2 players if they want to commit need a lot of free time, even to watch SC2, I've seen it on some of my friends who loved SC2, but just gave up and went to LoL because it's more casual, requires less practice if you want to "feel good about your level of play" and way easier to access + it's a team game obviously and after work it's more chill than grinding 8 games on SC2 ladder. I'd be interested in seing some data on this but I dont think that the LoL players average age is that low, lots of casual gamers are in their late 20s or early 30s and are attracted to that kind of game.
On October 20 2012 04:23 zazen42 wrote: People will continue playing Starcraft 2 no matter what the prize money for tournaments or the number of viewers is compared to League of Legends, because the two are completely different games. Hell, even if there were no streams/tournaments/people playing SC2 anymore I still wouldn't switch to LoL because I enjoy games with more strategic depth. If SC2 died I would switch back to Broodwar or just playing chess full time.
Also, I think that HotS will appeal more to casual players with the inclusion of unranked 1v1 quick-match.
Maybe not, I like starcraft more, but I'm basically switching to League because my friends play it, and the pro scene is imo better. Team format is sick, blizzard doesn't promotes, and they suck at balance.
EPT
.
) on lol (im lvl11 cos id sooner play sc2) Starcraft is a great game, Destiny is right with the casual market, more players. FREE always dominates the polls. the bottom line is sc2 is harder, takes longer and you have to pay for it. lol is easy, free and . . .well free!
It was like he was imagining himself having to switch to lol or something... First time ever i got scared like crap because all of the points mentioned in the video are the goddamn truth... I hope sc2 is not gonna end like this..
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gsX8E.png)
. I didn't want to give a super precise definition. But you need to start somehwere. And it is for sure better than saying "YOU CAN'T COMPARE PVP GAMES!!!!".![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UYHyz.jpg)
