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On October 23 2012 02:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:42 bokeevboke wrote:On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote:
Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points? the real problem is the game itself. I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick. I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better. If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you. As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested.
I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics.
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
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On October 23 2012 02:52 Nimic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote:
I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
Are you serious? I am a massive football (soccer y'all) supporter, yet I very, very rarely play. It can go years between every time. I have also never done winter sports, but I follow the Winter Olympics, same with Summer Olympics. I am not an MMA fighter, yet I follow the UFC. The list goes on.
You can't apply that logic to video games. Its very easy to understand whats happening on football pitch or two man beating shit out of eachother. I've never played HoN, and I cant understand a shit when I am watching it.
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On October 23 2012 02:52 Nimic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote:
I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
Are you serious? I am a massive football (soccer y'all) supporter, yet I very, very rarely play. It can go years between every time. I have also never done winter sports, but I follow the Winter Olympics, same with Summer Olympics. I am not an MMA fighter, yet I follow the UFC. The list goes on.
Well, I'm not saying it's a binary thing. I'm saying that I believe that people generally come to watch a sport because they have played it, but I take your point.
In any case, you didn't have to go seek out Football - it was a part of life from an early age (you did play it as a kid right?). Winter sports were also a standard part of many countries' ways of life, long before they ever became a sport; and who didn't do athletics at school?
If you have to go looking for a sport that has complex non-evident rules that you were not exposed to as a natural part of growing up, then I think you are not likely to go looking for SC2 as your viewing choice. It seems like the figures bear that out.
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On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote:
I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
What?
I think most sports are watched by a majority of "non-players".
You really think most people out there drive Formula 1 race cars? You think most people have played Tennis? Nope.
And even those that have played, it's usually a thing in their past that they maybe did in their childhood or highschool years casually.
Very few people are actually athletes and understand a game from the players perspective.
A *lot* of people watch SC2 that have never played or only played very casually.
To me, SC2 is a much more approachable game from a spectators point of view than LoL or DOTA. It's two armies trying to beat eachother... you don't have to notice all the cute micro and techniques to understand it ( though, that makes it better).
The same thing that makes LoL so appealing to casuals, the tons of items and heroes to play with, makes it a nightmare to watch. I understand MOBA (and play DOTA quite a bit), but I still have a very hard time understanding LoL at all when I attempt to watch.
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On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:03 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2012 01:42 bokeevboke wrote:On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote:
Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points? the real problem is the game itself. I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick. I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better. If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you. As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested. I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics. I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2? SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
Except for people like Destiny, it is DEFINITELY a job. These threads are getting moronic at best. The game is not dying, HotS will not be a failure. Blizzard game expansions have always improved upon the original (minus WoW Cata, not sure about that one), and the people who have bought a Blizzard game are more likely to buy an expansion upon a previously existing Blizzard game. The company's name alone still has buying power.
As for LoL vs SC2, I play and watch both. With a lot of my time. Granted not as much as I used to with me having to search for graduate school but when I can I'll throw a couple games down on the SC2 ladder or maybe play the campaign a bit and I play LoL with friends. As for "player mechanics are always important in rts" I would argue player mechanics are actually important in all games that have an esport attached. Yes Starcraft might seem like its more "mechanically demanding" but I can say for a fact that playing certain roles in LoL are also mechanically demanding.
Enough of the doomsday shit, just enjoy your game and support the games you like watching and playing. SC isn't going anywhere as the previous decade and a half has shown.
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On October 23 2012 03:01 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:52 Nimic wrote:On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote:
I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
Are you serious? I am a massive football (soccer y'all) supporter, yet I very, very rarely play. It can go years between every time. I have also never done winter sports, but I follow the Winter Olympics, same with Summer Olympics. I am not an MMA fighter, yet I follow the UFC. The list goes on. You can't apply that logic to video games. Its very easy to understand whats happening on football pitch or two man beating shit out of eachother. I've never played HoN, and I cant understand a shit when I am watching it.
it's not at all difficult to understand whats going on in sc2 from a spectator point of view
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On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft.
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On October 20 2012 04:37 rift wrote:
I'd like the community to be smaller and more mature. Fewer tournaments would be nice as well.
That's fine, but then don't be surprised to see MVP, Flash, or whoever player you think is great and the best of the world switch to lol or dota 2, because it pays a lot more.
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On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:03 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2012 01:42 bokeevboke wrote:On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote:
Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points? the real problem is the game itself. I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick. I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better. If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you. As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested. I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics. I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2? SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS.
People on TL are obsessed with mechanically demanding games because being able to control your units are part of good gameplay and separates those who care from those who don’t. The only way to remove mechanically demands from the game is to make things more automated, which has its own problems. Personally, I don’t want to lose to players who don’t put in the time to get good at the game.
If you want a game based on decision making, play Ruse Ubisoft. The game allows for no micro and only requires to you manage a minimal economy. Most game degrades down into a slug fest where armies smash off each other until one side gets slightly outflanked and the game ends. It is all about out thinking your opponent, but can get a bit stale. Superior Commander 2 also has limited mechanical demands and allows a lot of fun stuff. There are games out there that are not mechanically demanding.
If you don’t want to get good mechanics and learn how to get better at a game, refine out a build to a razors edge or learn when a timing will hit right before you opponent gets the influx of units or upgrade they need; don’t play SC2. There are other games out there for you, but SC2 is not one of them.
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On October 23 2012 03:12 muzzy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS. Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft.
A mechanically demanding game will never make it into masses. Hence no viewers and no esports.
Some people around here are right, its the community who are killing sc2. I'm done with this discussion.
On October 23 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:On October 23 2012 02:03 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2012 01:42 bokeevboke wrote:On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote:
Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points? the real problem is the game itself. I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick. I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better. If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you. As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested. I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics. I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2? SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS. People on TL are obsessed with mechanically demanding games because being able to control your units are part of good gameplay and separates those who care from those who don’t. The only way to remove mechanically demands from the game is to make things more automated, which has its own problems. Personally, I don’t want to lose to players who don’t put in the time to get good at the game. If you want a game based on decision making, play Ruse Ubisoft. The game allows for no micro and only requires to you manage a minimal economy. Most game degrades down into a slug fest where armies smash off each other until one side gets slightly outflanked and the game ends. It is all about out thinking your opponent, but can get a bit stale. Superior Commander 2 also has limited mechanical demands and allows a lot of fun stuff. There are games out there that are not mechanically demanding. If you don’t want to get good mechanics and learn how to get better at a game, refine out a build to a razors edge or learn when a timing will hit right before you opponent gets the influx of units or upgrade they need; don’t play SC2. There are other games out there for you, but SC2 is not one of them.
I think you refuse to undertand that I don't want mecanics to be removed completely . Reread my posts pls. I want decisions to be as much important as mecanics at least. or even more. I don't want SC2 to be like Civilization.
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On October 23 2012 03:12 muzzy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS. Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft.
Personally, this is what makes me feel compelled to say SC is more of an eSport than most other games. Games like SC, Counterstrike, and Quake where the difference between Pro and the average Jo is intense physical conditioning, are the ones I'm pretty proud to say to my friends "yeah, this is legit eSports". Clearly I'm wrong on the matter, since LoL seems to be the only game standing tall, but it doesn't feel right to consider something a real eSport just because all the money is there. (it feels more like a game show rather than a spectator sport). =/
Theres my rant, have at it!
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On October 23 2012 03:26 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 03:12 muzzy wrote:On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS. Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft. A mechanically demanding game will never make it into masses. Hence no viewers and no esports. Some people around here are right, its the community who are killing sc2. I'm done with this discussion.
Then so be it! I'd rather have a game that I enjoy, that has integrity, than a game that appeals to the masses. Why should I change the game I know and love so that it appeals to others?
Some people are way too enthralled with this idea that SC2 needs to have the biggest pro scene. Maybe we should find our niche and stick with it.
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Starcraft 2 is NOT dying!
I am getting tired of these now numerous posts about how blizzard has failed or how much the game sucks now!
First of all, yes the game needs a lot of work still, and the custom game system could be improved a lot. And yes we need more casuals to play of course! its all win win in that category i know i know! And yes SC2 could become a great e-sport like one we have never seen, i agree on all the damn points except that SC2 is doomed.
First of all, how big was the BW scene again? HUGE - o wait that was ONLY in Korea! How much has the SC community exploded after WoL? - a whole lot!
We have now more big (money) tournaments for SC2 (again outside of Korea) than there ever was for BW
We have more full time foreign pro's than there ever was for BW
We have more posters on TL (actually i would love to see some stats on TL pre WL and now - userbase and ppd and so on)
We have a giant collective prize-pool
Destiny is making money doing it!
Bar-crafts anyone?
Pros on Salaries traveling the world on a monthly friggin basis!
FLASH PLAYING SC2!!!!
I mean look at what we have! Is is perfect? NO, can we make it perfect YES!
Actually i would say we have been pretty saturated with success - its not the same dollars or viewers as LoL/Dota i agree - but it IS a whole lot more than BW!
And you have to remember that what Valve is doing for Dota - Blizzard could do for SC2 ( and i hope they do!) The International might have had a million dollar price pool - but Valve made that happen! LoL might have more viewers but they use a in-client stream!
I mean the whole SC2 scene is literally build by the community (WCS and Blizzcon helps sure) And if things improve from Blizzards side, and i am sure it will, we are going to see SC2 steadily rising to the top among exclusive prestigious e sports! We can and have to do better!
We need to BELIEVE it can be great! We need to WANT it to be great!
And we need to STOP spiraling each other into thinking that SC2 will just die soon.
I agree with Destiny and the tons of other posters, but we NEED to remind each other what we have already achieved!
We need congratulate each other and give positive feedback and constructive criticism to each other and Blizzard!
WE ARE SUPERSTARS!
YOU ALL ROCK! AND I LOVE YOU!
WE DON'T WANT OR NEED DOTA/LOL WE JUST NEED EACH OTHER!
PEACE AND LOVE AND STARCRAFT!
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On October 23 2012 03:06 muzzy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote:
I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
What? I think most sports are watched by a majority of "non-players". You really think most people out there drive Formula 1 race cars? You think most people have played Tennis? Nope. And even those that have played, it's usually a thing in their past that they maybe did in their childhood or highschool years casually. Very few people are actually athletes and understand a game from the players perspective. A *lot* of people watch SC2 that have never played or only played very casually. To me, SC2 is a much more approachable game from a spectators point of view than LoL or DOTA. It's two armies trying to beat eachother... you don't have to notice all the cute micro and techniques to understand it ( though, that makes it better). The same thing that makes LoL so appealing to casuals, the tons of items and heroes to play with, makes it a nightmare to watch. I understand MOBA (and play DOTA quite a bit), but I still have a very hard time understanding LoL at all when I attempt to watch.
Well, I guess I didn't make my point clear:
If you play something, you appreciate and understand it, and it's a natural step to look to see how people who are really good at it perform.
It's not whether you are a player "right now" or even a top performer. Everyone was an athlete at school, most people drive a car or at least understand how cars work. Most people have played a game where they hit a ball with a stick of some kind.
My point is that if you are not exposed to the sport as part of your life (play it; do the same actions yourself etc) then WHY would you go looking for it? WHY would you take all that time to learn the complexities? This isn't "that car is faster than this one", or "that guy ran faster than this guy".
MOST people won't, and the viewer numbers bear that out. Otherwise how do you explain that SC2 doesn't get the same viewers as LoL or Dota2?
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On October 23 2012 03:29 Kresh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 03:06 muzzy wrote:On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote:
I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
What? I think most sports are watched by a majority of "non-players". You really think most people out there drive Formula 1 race cars? You think most people have played Tennis? Nope. And even those that have played, it's usually a thing in their past that they maybe did in their childhood or highschool years casually. Very few people are actually athletes and understand a game from the players perspective. A *lot* of people watch SC2 that have never played or only played very casually. To me, SC2 is a much more approachable game from a spectators point of view than LoL or DOTA. It's two armies trying to beat eachother... you don't have to notice all the cute micro and techniques to understand it ( though, that makes it better). The same thing that makes LoL so appealing to casuals, the tons of items and heroes to play with, makes it a nightmare to watch. I understand MOBA (and play DOTA quite a bit), but I still have a very hard time understanding LoL at all when I attempt to watch. Well, I guess I didn't make my point clear: If you play something, you appreciate and understand it, and it's a natural step to look to see how people who are really good at it perform. It's not whether you are a player "right now" or even a top performer. Everyone was an athlete at school, most people drive a car or at least understand how cars work. Most people have played a game where they hit a ball with a stick of some kind. My point is that if you are not exposed to the sport as part of your life (play it; do the same actions yourself etc) then WHY would you go looking for it? WHY would you take all that time to learn the complexities? This isn't "that car is faster than this one", or "that guy ran faster than this guy". MOST people won't, and the viewer numbers bear that out. Otherwise how do you explain that SC2 doesn't get the same viewers as LoL or Dota2?
I get your point, that people can relate to something similar to what they've played. But, I can say the same thing about videogames. If you've played videogames growing up, you're going to be able to easier relate to watching eSports.
Also, just want to point out that DOTA2 does *not* get more viewers than SC2. That's a misconception that is continually spread around. It has more peak viewers for its one big tourney. On a day to day basis and counting all the major events SC2 has every year, it far outpaces DOTA2. Is that likely to be the case when DOTA2 is actually released? I don't really know.
But, as to LoL- Yes, more people watch it... and yes, that almost certainly is because more people play it. I get that, but I don't think there is anything we can do to change that. LoL is simply more appealing to most people as a casual game to play.
We can do things to improve SC2 and make it more accessible to people, but we can't change everything about the game and hope to beat LoL.
Two and a Half Men gets a lot more viewers than Boardwalk Empire or Game of Thrones... but the latter fill their own niche and would not have the viewers they do if they tried to appeal to a broader base. Not the best analogy, but I'm just trying to state that SC2 can have a place even without being the biggest game on the block.
Lets be known for being the most elite, prestigious game with the highest skill level. Lets be the game that serious gamers go to when they graduate from MOBA. We might not have the biggest prize pools, but we can still exist and thrive.
The success of LoL does not mean the death of SC2.
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On October 23 2012 03:26 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 03:12 muzzy wrote:On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS. Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft. A mechanically demanding game will never make it into masses. Hence no viewers and no esports. Some people around here are right, its the community who are killing sc2. I'm done with this discussion. Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:On October 23 2012 02:03 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2012 01:42 bokeevboke wrote:On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote:
Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points? the real problem is the game itself. I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick. I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better. If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you. As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested. I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics. I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2? SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS. People on TL are obsessed with mechanically demanding games because being able to control your units are part of good gameplay and separates those who care from those who don’t. The only way to remove mechanically demands from the game is to make things more automated, which has its own problems. Personally, I don’t want to lose to players who don’t put in the time to get good at the game. If you want a game based on decision making, play Ruse Ubisoft. The game allows for no micro and only requires to you manage a minimal economy. Most game degrades down into a slug fest where armies smash off each other until one side gets slightly outflanked and the game ends. It is all about out thinking your opponent, but can get a bit stale. Superior Commander 2 also has limited mechanical demands and allows a lot of fun stuff. There are games out there that are not mechanically demanding. If you don’t want to get good mechanics and learn how to get better at a game, refine out a build to a razors edge or learn when a timing will hit right before you opponent gets the influx of units or upgrade they need; don’t play SC2. There are other games out there for you, but SC2 is not one of them. I think you refuse to undertand that I don't want mecanics to be removed completely . Reread my posts pls. I want decisions to be as much important as mecanics at least. or even more. I don't want SC2 to be like Civilization.
I did read your post, it was not that long. I responded with games that RTS games where decision making is 80% of the game and mechanics are 20%. I don’t think they are very competitive or enjoyable to watch, but they are out there in the world and available. I like playing them against friends, but that is about it. There are few, if any games, like SC2.
If you don’t like practicing your macro or getting better at dropping sweet force fields, there are other games for you. If you want to beat people who have put more time and effort into getting good at SC2 because you made a “better decision”, there are going to be a ton of people who think you should have to back it up with mechanics.
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On October 23 2012 03:37 muzzy wrote:
The success of LoL does not mean the death of SC2.
I totally agree.
I'm coming from the viewpoint that unless more casuals are in the game, there will be both fewer viewers, and fewer people for the pro's to be developed from.
It's the kids who play the game (at first casually), find out they're really good, see the opportunity (or their parents maybe who see it) and then strive to be good at it - they make the pro scene.
Fewer casuals = fewer viewers (I believe) = smaller pool of talent = fewer, lower-quality pro's.
I don't really think anyone would move from a high-paying job in a moba to a game that's harder to master, has fewer viewers and so pays less. SC2 has to generate is OWN pro's from its young casuals.
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On October 23 2012 01:42 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote:
Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points? the real problem is the game itself. I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
While I disagree with the premise that other suggestions won't attract casuals, I do get where you're coming from.
Ladder gameplay isn't casual friendly. This is true. But making ladder gameplay more fun while keeping the skill ceiling high isn't something that can easily be done.
What Destiny was aiming at with his post was that BW didn't put an emphasis on ladder nearly as much as SC2 does. If Ladder is so unforgiving to casuals, then WHY THE HELL IS THE FIRST THING A CASUAL IS FACED WITH IS LADDER?
Even IdrA started off playing a more forgiving version of BW (BGH) and then slowly worked his way up to harder maps. Heck, he could have started with that DBZ map for all we know and then went into BGH.
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On October 23 2012 03:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 03:26 bokeevboke wrote:On October 23 2012 03:12 muzzy wrote:On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:
I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2?
SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS. Because that's what StarCraft is all about. It's a mix of fast reflexes and strong mechanics, and strategic thinking. There are lots of games that require very little in the way of mechanics but have a deeper strategic thought process. That's not what we want out of StarCraft. A mechanically demanding game will never make it into masses. Hence no viewers and no esports. Some people around here are right, its the community who are killing sc2. I'm done with this discussion. On October 23 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2012 02:58 bokeevboke wrote:On October 23 2012 02:03 Plansix wrote:On October 23 2012 01:42 bokeevboke wrote:On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote:
Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points? the real problem is the game itself. I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick. I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better. If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you. As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested. I didn't mean to completely remove mechanics, its not possible, player mechanics are always important in rts. What I meant is to increase decisions importance over mecanics. I cant understand why most people in TL obsessed with the idea of mechanically demanding SC2? SC2 is a GAME, its not a job. FFS. People on TL are obsessed with mechanically demanding games because being able to control your units are part of good gameplay and separates those who care from those who don’t. The only way to remove mechanically demands from the game is to make things more automated, which has its own problems. Personally, I don’t want to lose to players who don’t put in the time to get good at the game. If you want a game based on decision making, play Ruse Ubisoft. The game allows for no micro and only requires to you manage a minimal economy. Most game degrades down into a slug fest where armies smash off each other until one side gets slightly outflanked and the game ends. It is all about out thinking your opponent, but can get a bit stale. Superior Commander 2 also has limited mechanical demands and allows a lot of fun stuff. There are games out there that are not mechanically demanding. If you don’t want to get good mechanics and learn how to get better at a game, refine out a build to a razors edge or learn when a timing will hit right before you opponent gets the influx of units or upgrade they need; don’t play SC2. There are other games out there for you, but SC2 is not one of them. I think you refuse to undertand that I don't want mecanics to be removed completely . Reread my posts pls. I want decisions to be as much important as mecanics at least. or even more. I don't want SC2 to be like Civilization. I did read your post, it was not that long. I responded with games that RTS games where decision making is 80% of the game and mechanics are 20%. I don’t think they are very competitive or enjoyable to watch, but they are out there in the world and available. I like playing them against friends, but that is about it. There are few, if any games, like SC2. If you don’t like practicing your macro or getting better at dropping sweet force fields, there are other games for you. If you want to beat people who have put more time and effort into getting good at SC2 because you made a “better decision”, there are going to be a ton of people who think you should have to back it up with mechanics.
If I'm understanding you correctly, SC2 is about working hard and feeling the sweet taste of victory, and being rewarded for your efforts. I can't help but to ask, do you even consider it as a game? Or is it something to prove yourself? If it is a game for you, please name another game where priority is working hard rather than having fun (except professionals ofc, because we're not talking about them).
Consider this. When I was in gold league/plat/diamond I used to 1/1/1 every TvP. I somewhat practiced this build a lot and had like 80% winrate. It was all about mecanics, there was hardly any decision making. I knew exactly timings and slight deviations in compo depending on what protoss was doing. So I perfected it and had my wins. And I asked myself, wtf I'm doing? am I having fun? NO. Am I wasting my time learning something stupid? YES.
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EPT
