On October 22 2012 17:29 dpurple wrote: I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn.
DOTA2 is the same deal but it might be worth learning so im gonna give it a try since I have my key now (though I wish there was less of everything). But theres alot of studying to do before the game will start being any fun at all.
Well you don't need to study anything, you learn as you play. You fail and you learn from your mistakes. I have 500+ hours on DoTA 2 and the game is still fresh and exciting, because every game is different. Period. Even if both teams pick the same heroes, the circumstances can change so much from game to game, even things like who got first blood, or who got the first Roshan and managed to turn into advantage...and I'm not even getting into specific item builds for heroes.
You also die to random stuff in SC2, some obnoxious proxy gate or some other ridiculous all-ins can catch you off guard. If you aren't going to suck it up and continue to play (and try to get better), then why on Earth are you playing competitive games in the first place?
On October 22 2012 19:24 nam nam wrote: I don't get why people look up to LoL as the pinacle of esports atm. It's a free to play game that you can play with friends where the company that makes the game pushed huge amount of money into esports. It's the biggest bubble we have in esports atm. It's not that sc2 can't grow but people should realize that we are at a point where you can't really have a much bigger sustainable scene without something major happening. People seem to forget the past esports bubbles we've had and the games in question is quite laughable when you look back at them. As long as blizzard doesn't screw up Hots completely SC2 will be around well after Destiny's prophecies even if it may not live up to the absurd dreams of sc2 "going mainstream."
I'd be quite happy if sc2 always stayed with its own little scene, given that its RTS and can't compete with MOBA games. But frankly, I don't like some stuff about sc2 now. Community is great (which is why I'm still here) but game sucks. I deleted sc2 nine months ago, and its not because I'm boycotting. The game is boring. I would've left it on my computer, but I needed some disk space. There were other games like skyrim, LoL, heroes 3, bw which are still great to play from time to time. Bad I have hardly any desire to play sc2. And lately I find myself not enjoying tournaments, simply boring. Thats why I complain. Not because SC2 is not a big ESPORTS name.
On October 22 2012 17:29 dpurple wrote: I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn.
DOTA2 is the same deal but it might be worth learning so im gonna give it a try since I have my key now (though I wish there was less of everything). But theres alot of studying to do before the game will start being any fun at all.
Disregarding the gameplay
You can play it with friends, which makes it a ton more fun to play then any single player game. Its a team game, which means that the burden is either not on you or lessened when you lose. In Starcraft if you lose its all you(ladder anxiety/fear exists a lot more in Starcraft then Lol/Dota). The very nature of the game makes it more appealing to play and more socially interactive then Starcraft. In Lol/Dota you have to communicate with your team. In Starcraft often if not always a player will only typ 2 lines to his opponents, gl hf and gg. That is not social interaction at all, in Dota/LoL you are forced to play together. Not to mention that in Dota/LoL there is time to do so in between deaths, in between moving your hero from A to B, it is a LOT less stressfull to play. In SC2 you constantly need to be performing actions. Casuals play the game to relax, not to be stressed out even more. SC2 is an extremly stressfull game compared to Mobas. In a lot of cases it doesn't even matter how the game is going, as long as you can interact with your friends via the ingame chat or voice communication you can make it fun.
Hotbid, me, flamewheel and Mr Hoon were watching the Starladder season 3 finals together, however the following scenario can easily take place when we are playing the game itself.
There is no way you can have this in Starcraft 2 because its simply a 1v1 game.
On the gameplay
There are 3 races for Starcraft, yet there are over a 100 champions and heroes for the other games, and each of them can be build differently with items. In fact not only do you have 100 champions and heroes, you also have an incredible amount of combination of heroes/champions. Playing different lanes, playing different team setups in terms of heroes, it offers so much diversity. While Starcraft has more units per race each game is actually quite similair for the casual player PoV. You use the same units every game and relativly the same unit compositions. While this is not really a problem for those who like it, casuals want diversity, Starcraft has little of that. Starcraft2 SHOULD have that in the Custom Game section, which as of this moment is pretty much dead or was never alive.
You make a good point on the amount of champions/heroes you have to learn, however this is also somewhat the same in Starcraft. Remember that at a basic level in both games people are really bad, like really really bad. For one to be decent in Starcraft it requires constant training of macro mechanics, strategies and on the fly decision making, both games require a lot of knowledge yet in Starcraft the burden of it is all on you. Although the Moba community is notorious for flaming you can ASK the people in your game for tips if you are new. Remember that at a basic level in both Moba's people are fucking atrocious, but that is fine because so are you.
Lastly the learning part in LoL/Dota is a learning experience, once you encounter that hero once you will know roughly what the opponent does, remember that they only have 4 skills. In LoL when you get killed you will see what killed you and Riot gives you general tips on how to deal with this. LoL(Dota has it up to a certain degree) also has champions/heroes classified in certain catagories, in LoL this is AP mid, AD, Support, Jungle and Bruiser(or AP top), a lot of these have somewhat similair skills or atleast are supposed to be played somewhat the same way, this makes it a lot easier for people to understand even newer heroes/champions. People are casuals but they are not retards, when that Sand King stuns underneath you you will know next time that he has it and that you have to take it into account.
Blizzard is probably going to monetize sc2 with the help of blizdota. Blizz dota looks to be free to play and run on the sc2 engine. Meaning people would have to be online on Battle to play. Customisation similar to what dota 2 have can be implmented. Sc2 games might give u items u can use in the dota game. It seems that blizzard is alredy trying to target teh. More casual crowd with therer Moba game. Average of 20 minut matches with more focus on team engagement. We are better of comparing dota2,lol and blizzallstar then putting a rts in a moba category. Its different kind of entertainment. Biggest 1vs1 game right now is sc2 and there really isn't any contenders for that right now. That being said the social aspect needs ton be worked on. What we need is chat functions in the luncher for sc2. Maybe 10 years ago people where in game using the chat functions but things have changed. People dont communicate in dota 2 in game they communicate off game on the steam engine. Since most games connect u to steam onine u always end up finding people.
I dont understand how LoL can be fun for the casual player. Too many heroes, countless abilities to learn and items. From my own casual play of LoL ~100 games, the people I played with (me included) had no idea what they were up agains (what the enemy could do). How is that any fun at all? The game is really boring if you just randomly die to stuff you didnt know about. And it is so much to learn. That dont seem casual at all. After my 100 games I decided that LoL wasnt worth it to learn.
DOTA2 is the same deal but it might be worth learning so im gonna give it a try since I have my key now (though I wish there was less of everything). But theres alot of studying to do before the game will start being any fun at all.
Disregarding the gameplay
You can play it with friends, which makes it a ton more fun to play then any single player game. Its a team game, which means that the burden is either not on you or lessened when you lose. In Starcraft if you lose its all you(ladder anxiety/fear exists a lot more in Starcraft then Lol/Dota). The very nature of the game makes it more appealing to play and more socially interactive then Starcraft. In Lol/Dota you have to communicate with your team. In Starcraft often if not always a player will only typ 2 lines to his opponents, gl hf and gg. That is not social interaction at all, in Dota/LoL you are forced to play together. Not to mention that in Dota/LoL there is time to do so in between deaths, in between moving your hero from A to B, it is a LOT less stressfull to play. In SC2 you constantly need to be performing actions. Casuals play the game to relax, not to be stressed out even more. SC2 is an extremly stressfull game compared to Mobas. In a lot of cases it doesn't even matter how the game is going, as long as you can interact with your friends via the ingame chat or voice communication you can make it fun.
Hotbid, me, flamewheel and Mr Hoon were watching the Starladder season 3 finals together, however the following scenario can easily take place when we are playing the game itself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ft7CnEzEBo
There is no way you can have this in Starcraft 2 because its simply a 1v1 game.
On the gameplay
There are 3 races for Starcraft, yet there are over a 100 champions and heroes for the other games, and each of them can be build differently with items. In fact not only do you have 100 champions and heroes, you also have an incredible amount of combination of heroes/champions. Playing different lanes, playing different team setups in terms of heroes, it offers so much diversity. While Starcraft has more units per race each game is actually quite similair for the casual player PoV. You use the same units every game and relativly the same unit compositions. While this is not really a problem for those who like it, casuals want diversity, Starcraft has little of that. Starcraft2 SHOULD have that in the Custom Game section, which as of this moment is pretty much dead or was never alive.
You make a good point on the amount of champions/heroes you have to learn, however this is also somewhat the same in Starcraft. Remember that at a basic level in both games people are really bad, like really really bad. For one to be decent in Starcraft it requires constant training of macro mechanics, strategies and on the fly decision making, both games require a lot of knowledge yet in Starcraft the burden of it is all on you. Although the Moba community is notorious for flaming you can ASK the people in your game for tips if you are new. Remember that at a basic level in both Moba's people are fucking atrocious, but that is fine because so are you.
Lastly the learning part in LoL/Dota is a learning experience, once you encounter that hero once you will know roughly what the opponent does, remember that they only have 4 skills. In LoL when you get killed you will see what killed you and Riot gives you general tips on how to deal with this. LoL(Dota has it up to a certain degree) also has champions/heroes classified in certain catagories, in LoL this is AP mid, AD, Support, Jungle and Bruiser(or AP top), a lot of these have somewhat similair skills or atleast are supposed to be played somewhat the same way, this makes it a lot easier for people to understand even newer heroes/champions. People are casuals but they are not retards, when that Sand King stuns underneath you you will know next time that he has it and that you have to take it into account
.
You make some really good points. DoTA and its clones(LoL, HoN etc.) are much more social games. You communicate with your team, share tactics and strategy, and if nothing there are 9 other people you can chat with in the game no matter what. The diversity is also as you've put it, a big part of what makes the game so fun. There are so many hero/skill combinations possible to combo with, and with that kind of diversity the game makes you feel like anything is possible as long as you play right. You said casuals like diversity, but I don't agree with that statement. I think noone would like dull, bland, one dimensional games where what you need to do to win is pretty limited and there isn't much depth. I don't think why anyone would NOT want diversity.
On October 18 2012 01:27 IdrA wrote: im not sure if its what destiny's aiming for but you can have a difficult, competitive game and still have a good casual experience. competitive players dont need their hand held by the interface, theyre going to go into the game. go to the ladder. play the game. all they need is for the actual 1v1 portion of the game to be difficult enough that it can be a legit competition. casual players are the ones who'll get scared off if things arent easy and fun and intuitive since they can just as easily go play the flavor of the month shooter or adventure game that's tailored to them.
the problem happens when blizzard tries to do this shitty middle ground where they emphasize competitive play but then try to make it easy enough that non competitive players can do it "well"
Completely agree with this
Absolutely agreed
I agree. I said this before but the (traditional) RTS genre is dying. Catering to the casuals won't do anything. They'd just swarm to a different more fun game.
If I had a choice of playing WarCraft III vs Dota, which would I pick? Dota. And the masses agreed.
WC3 is a lot more casual "focused" than SC2 is. 4v4s were actually fun in WC3 because you used heroes and leveled them up (and also it wasn't a death ball into 5 seconds of some side getting destroyed instantly like SC2 is).
WC3 had way more custom game focus than even BW did (of course, most of them ended up being Dota).
WC3 had a lot of stuff Destiny talks about but yet it didn't really catch on and it sort of failed (or at least, WC3 didn't even put a dent into the BW scene).
If WC3 couldn't do it, then SC2 probably can't either.
BW thrived because it had little competition at the time (MMOs weren't mainstream back then, shooters like C.S. were for for only those with really good computers, there was no dota, etc).
RTS genre in general is dying. It needs a revamp. Dota works in sort like a card game similar to magic the gathering - The game changes constantly and new stuff (heroes) is added regularly.
Should that be done for SC2 too? Should players have the option of picking maybe 30 out of 150+ units (per race) which all have different abilities and crazy stuff?
Yes, this will destroy SC2 balance (to an extent) but it works for Dota (eventually only the better units, items, or heroes are used in comp but in pubs, most of the items or heroes are viable).
tl;dr - (Traditional) RTS genre. SC2 needs a massive revamp to make it more popular to the masses. WC3 had nearly everything Destiny talked about yet it's pro scene and eSports-ness didn't catch on that much (it was popular somewhat but barely). (Also most people ended up playing Dota over WC3.)
Even if SC2 was made easier to play even more... people we just go to Dota because it's a more fun game overall.
How the game can be made more casual does not = amount of players it has. It has to be casual and easy to get to "and" competitive (in terms of fun) compared to other games on the market (Dota and LoL are both free to play, with Dota being more *free to play than LoL).
*You don't have to buy heroes or anything in Dota (compared to LoL where you have to buy champs to play with them). Only thing "pay" in Dota is the items (which most drop randomly after games anyway).
tl;dr #2 - SC2 has to compete in casual and fun factor with Dota, no questions asked. There isn't "SC2 and Dota are completely different games", the question is "which game is more fun"?
Some times, people play a game regardless of genre. In that case, you need to compete with them on the fun factor overall rather than stay in your own genre and compete with others in your own genre. So it's SC2 vs Dota, not SC2 vs other (Traditional) RTS games. At this point, SC2 should be it's own game (traditional RTS has basically died). Few people really play traditional RTS games anymore (it's kind of a dead genre, it's not fun anymore compared to FPS, MMOs, or Dota).
On October 22 2012 17:00 TheDraken wrote: no one cares whether LOL is easier than SC2. the point is that SC2 is stale as hell to play. it's linear. tedious. boring. THAT is why people are moving from SC2 to LOL. it has nothing to do with the difficulty.
it has almost everything to do with difficulty... why do you think call of duty is so popular? its easy to pick up and play. sc2 is very unforgiving where even the slightest mis micro at any point in the game can cost you. also, in lol dota hon you can always blame your allies for whatever reason, while in sc2 its always your fault when you lose. oh yeah and its fucking free to play.
maybe, just maybe you're confusing difficulty/complexity with fun
On October 22 2012 17:00 TheDraken wrote: no one cares whether LOL is easier than SC2. the point is that SC2 is stale as hell to play. it's linear. tedious. boring. THAT is why people are moving from SC2 to LOL. it has nothing to do with the difficulty.
it has almost everything to do with difficulty... why do you think call of duty is so popular? its easy to pick up and play. sc2 is very unforgiving where even the slightest mis micro at any point in the game can cost you. also, in lol dota hon you can always blame your allies for whatever reason, while in sc2 its always your fault when you lose. oh yeah and its fucking free to play.
maybe, just maybe you're confusing difficulty/complexity with fun
Yeah people have a lot of fun playing difficult games like Dark Souls and stuff. It's definitely possible to make a game fun and challenging. SC2 just isn't that game. It could be, but it's on Blizzard to make it so.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
i agree with you but this is what the league system is for. ill accept i cant macro as good as someone in 2 leagues higher than me, but i understand what ive got to do. its really painful to watch a replay see my scouting and doing the right tech up for what i saw, to see someone who didnt even scout but just sent stuff and had more stuff!. At the same time i dont want this game making any easier in that respect as when you get to the top level im sure the mechanics are just there then the real strat comes in. I play guitar very well and i dont think twice now about reconstructing megadeth solos, i know the scales they utilise and over time the timings and style they approach it, surely this macroing technique is just the same so that it becomes muscle memory and just the way you play.
i think what you says matters but again, its your league which forgives you unless ur at top but if ur not playing well you deserve to lose.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
i agree with you but this is what the league system is for. ill accept i cant macro as good as someone in 2 leagues higher than me, but i understand what ive got to do. its really painful to watch a replay see my scouting and doing the right tech up for what i saw, to see someone who didnt even scout but just sent stuff and had more stuff!. At the same time i dont want this game making any easier in that respect as when you get to the top level im sure the mechanics are just there then the real strat comes in. I play guitar very well and i dont think twice now about reconstructing megadeth solos, i know the scales they utilise and over time the timings and style they approach it, surely this macroing technique is just the same so that it becomes muscle memory and just the way you play.
i think what you says matters but again, its your league which forgives you unless ur at top but if ur not playing well you deserve to lose.
with all due respect to your post, casuals (roughly 95% of gamers) don't watch replays, and they don't analyze their mistakes. They click 'FIND MATCH' and play again. After playing 10 games, they might see some pattern why they losing and assuming they are not totally stupid they will try to adapt.
Honestly, there is nothing wrong with dumbing down the game. There are plenty variables in RTS game (its not like ping pong) and lots of room for improvement. Therefore there will be always someone who will be the best. And we will pay all our money to watch him play.
On October 23 2012 01:19 Novalisk wrote: Let's try to look at this from a different angle.
One of the biggest complaints about laddering is that losing feels really, really bad.
Some ideas:
- Smarter post-game stats. If I'm zerg, I want to know how efficient my queen usage was. If I'm protoss, maybe I want to know how much time my warpgates weren't making units?
- Let me know what I improved after every match, regardless if I won or not. Let me know my efforts aren't in vain.
- Give me a giant "View Replay" button after every match.
- Send me to a helpful per-race chat by default(can be turned off of course). If I just lost a match, having a chat filled with people who understand my pain would be great.
- Shared replay viewing (this is coming though).
- Maybe don't show lost ladder points? Only gained ladder points?
the real problem is the game itself.
I don't understand why people suggest random stuff like better UI, chat lobby, more stats, shared replay etc... It won't attract casuals ffs. GAMEPLAY needs to be changed. Like slowing down the pace, making it more forgiving, players' decisions should be far more important than mecanics. Now its more of 20% depends on how you think and 80% how fast your hands move. It should be other way around. Being able to do something smart and winning is more rewarding than clicking like a mad person, and its also not frustrating when you lose if your opponent did something smart, rather than losing due to single misclick.
I have this argument with every single one of my friends, who love board games, but refuse to play SC2. They believe their mental ability to be able to translate into some level of skill in SC2 and don’t like the fact that I can beat them by simply out macroing, let alone out microing them. They don't want to play because they know I will crush them and they don't want to invest the time to get better.
If this is your point of view, SC2 is not the game for you. Although I will agree there are some super frustrating parts of SC2, such easy to perform cheese that is also super powerful and general lack of scouting in the first 7 minutes of the game, the general gameplay is fine. Part of the fun of learning the game is learning how to respond and when to make decisions. Beating some one with superior mechanics is one of the most rewarding parts of SC2. If you want easy games, there are other games out there for you.
As for SC2 and the casual community, the key is to let people lose and have fun. The unranked ladder is something that should have been in WoL and will go a long way. Better social stuff will be fun too, but being able to just play a game when I am tried and not care will be a huge boost to keeping me interested.
no, it doesnt. the casual scene depends on blizzard. the pro scene depends on viewers and sponsors. there could be a complete absence of a casual scene and the pro scene could still be booming
I can't agree with most of you guyz, the fact that sc2 is unique and is the best game that will ever be played is that the skill level is extremely high, one mistake and you can lose the game. So as a spectator it's way more interesting to watch starcraft over any other games.
I get bored watching LOL, watching that champion last hitting for 10 minutes I mean some people watch LOL because that's the game they play but does that pull out some amazing stuff very interresting to watch ? Yes but very few compared to starcraft. You cannot compare like baseball with hockey or soccer with tennis, it's different genre , different kind and none of them should try to change their aspects in order to please a larger public.
Maybe the most interresting part would be add a 4th race to starcraft, just to increase the amount of matchups, builds but that would be pain to balance and less likely possible atm. LOL will create new champs over and over but I think overall thats what will kill the game because if you keep creating champions over and over the more you create the less different or innovative they will be. You can easily notice how new champions always have two similar abilities copied from other champs and soon you get bored of after awhile.
Starcraft is in the right direction, adding blizzard dota will bring casual gamers, also non-ranked ladder will encourage noobs to play more and more stats will help noobs whine about the game even more so rather than thinking they are bad , it will provide them biased stats to rely on their lack of skills and this will keep them playing.
Overall blizzard taking right decisions, they just need to make HOTS a more interresting game and we're good to go for a few years.
On October 23 2012 02:04 FrankWalls wrote: no, it doesnt. the casual scene depends on blizzard. the pro scene depends on viewers and sponsors. there could be a complete absence of a casual scene and the pro scene could still be booming
Heh the majority of audience don't even play competitively in SC2, and its dwindling.
people just love doing cool stuff, and u can't do cool stuff in sc2 when you've played 20 games and reached gold league, because from there on sc2 doesn't encourage you to do cool stuff, but to "play by the rules" so to speak. yes, you could stay in bronze forever, but thats not fun either.
in dota, because it's a team game and you have hundreds of cool heros with crazy abilities, you can do crazy shit all the time and be good at the same time. its more fun trying out new team compositions and crazy strats with your friends than analyzing your replays and grinding build orders, build orders you didn't even come up with, because when you try to come up with someting in sc2, it'll probably fail. you can't come up with things in sc2, most of the time you try to copy the pros, and thats not fun. in dota, you can do crazy new stuff almost every game. the only thing thats fun in sc2 is basically winning, but the process of doing it, i.e. playing the game, is not that much fun imo.
On October 23 2012 02:04 FrankWalls wrote: no, it doesnt. the casual scene depends on blizzard. the pro scene depends on viewers and sponsors. there could be a complete absence of a casual scene and the pro scene could still be booming
Heh the majority of audience don't even play competitively in SC2, and its dwindling.
thats what i mean, the audience doesnt have to play. ideally, the audience would open up to more non-players, and as long as theres an audience, there will be a competitive scene. the two scenes are very very unrelated, and to say one depends on the other is completely untrue
Not sure why anyone who never played SC2 would become a viewer.
I only watch because I used to play. I didn't wake up one day and say "Hey, I need something to follow, let me randomly look up a competitively-played computer game and start watching streams".
That's why I don't watch Dota etc, because I have no real appreciation for what's going on.
I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
On October 23 2012 02:48 Kresh wrote: I would be surprised if you could name any highly-watched sport that isn't played by its audience.
Are you serious? I am a massive football (soccer y'all) supporter, yet I very, very rarely play. It can go years between every time. I have also never done winter sports, but I follow the Winter Olympics, same with Summer Olympics. I am not an MMA fighter, yet I follow the UFC. The list goes on.
EPT
