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On October 21 2012 09:22 uzushould wrote:
As well you should think about how much does blizzard earn with sc2 and how much does RIOT earn.....bliz once sold sc for about 2 million times. It costs like 60 $ for the customer from this 60 there are about 10 % tax, 30 for the shop selling it, and about 5 $ transport costs, material costs and so on, leaves 15 for blizzard (probably less).
that makes 30 millions. Now discount all the costs for the server the production the support the public work sponsorships ....
they maybe made like 5 millions with it....thats it, they are not earning anything since then. They now can not invest millions into esports, it would just not be profitable.
You have no idea how the retail price is distributed. 30 for the shop? They wish. Profit margins on things like games are really low for retailers. $5 transport costs? Perhaps if you ship each box individually from Blizzard HQ. But once you bundle things in larger shipments, the transport costs per unit drop dramatically.
The profit margin for Blizzard is much higher than you think it is.
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On October 21 2012 09:18 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 09:07 Trumpstyle wrote:
Why play tennis when you can make more from Football, why do sponsors sponsor Tennis when Football is bigger?
Destiny argument is completely flaw. LoL will always be bigger because it's just easier for people control 1 unit instead were in Starcraft you need to micro units, handle economy it's just easier and more relaxing playing LoL. End of story. People play games to have fun. And if a game is easy and relaxing, people will be having fun. Destiny is right. The casual scene needs a lot of help in SC2. The Arcade needs to be completely re-done, the editor needs to be made easier to use so more people make Custom Games (I'd go back to map making if the editor was similar to WC3) and this will fuel the scene. And Blizzard needs to have a solid DOTA clone custom game for SC2.
I agree with you, except custom games and arcade won't help the casual scene. SC2 is just a very, very hard game and LoL is not nearly as hard to play casually. Like others have said previously, I do not see how people playing custom maps casually translates into them watching pros play 1v1. Also, even custom games are hard. No matter what, he who is faster/micros better wins.
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On October 21 2012 09:35 Gentso wrote:
Does League have tournaments running every minute of every day? I haven't been hyped for any SC2 tournament for a long time because the same content is available pretty much all the time. Besides, SC2 is as popular as a complex game is going to get. People love league because it's so simple and laid out for you. I'm willing to bet most league players wouldn't play more than one game of SC2 without getting frustrated and quitting. Personally, I think it sets a bad precedent for developers because I don't want people seeing League's success and emulating it by making overly simplistic feel good games.
A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both.
A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth.
On October 21 2012 09:47 Lazy8s wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 09:18 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 21 2012 09:07 Trumpstyle wrote:
Why play tennis when you can make more from Football, why do sponsors sponsor Tennis when Football is bigger?
Destiny argument is completely flaw. LoL will always be bigger because it's just easier for people control 1 unit instead were in Starcraft you need to micro units, handle economy it's just easier and more relaxing playing LoL. End of story. People play games to have fun. And if a game is easy and relaxing, people will be having fun. Destiny is right. The casual scene needs a lot of help in SC2. The Arcade needs to be completely re-done, the editor needs to be made easier to use so more people make Custom Games (I'd go back to map making if the editor was similar to WC3) and this will fuel the scene. And Blizzard needs to have a solid DOTA clone custom game for SC2. I agree with you, except custom games and arcade won't help the casual scene. SC2 is just a very, very hard game and LoL is not nearly as hard to play casually. Like others have said previously, I do not see how people playing custom maps casually translates into them watching pros play 1v1. Also, even custom games are hard. No matter what, he who is faster/micros better wins.
You might be surprised by how many league of legend players who only play low level normals and co-op vs AI watch progames. People like having idols, admiring people. Also, perhaps after a casual spends a month playing fun custom games, he becomes interested in playing the game for real? Really ... Just why do people think casuals don't matter. Do you think all the 500k+ viewers of League of Legends are aspiring progamers? Get real.
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I've got to admit Destiny has made very valid points. But, let me look back into my own personal experiences that could be relevant.
I played a TON of WC3 in the many many custom games having no idea whatsoever that there was even a professional circuit for 1v1. I sunk hours and hours into that game without having a clue.
When I got into SC2 it was during the beta, when I was watching HD and Husky doing the HDH Invitational, which then lead me to discover BW pro scene. That all inspired me to play ranked 1v1 matches and to this day I've yet to play a custom game for SC2.
But honestly I don't really think the game is all that setup for thousands of random people to get into watching 1v1 on a pro scene. At least not in the West. Look at BW it was absolutely MASSIVE, but only in Korea. With a small but hardcore following in the West.
It could honestly just be that we've met saturation for the RTS style games. Clearly we're missing the mark in Korea with what 25% of Koreans playing LoL. It might not be that we're dying, but that we've reached our stable population of viewers?
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On October 21 2012 09:51 Shikyo wrote:
You might be surprised by how many league of legend players who only play low level normals and co-op vs AI watch progames. People like having idols, admiring people. Also, perhaps after a casual spends a month playing fun custom games, he becomes interested in playing the game for real? Really ... Just why do people think casuals don't matter. Do you think all the 500k+ viewers of League of Legends are aspiring progamers? Get real.
Maybe not but I for one am not too interested in getting the bottom half of the League community onto Starcraft 2 anyway. There is a lot of depth to any game, LoL too but comparing it to Starcraft is like comparing tic tac toe to chess. Starcraft is much harder and has way more depth. People need to accept that Starcraft will not attract the majority of gamers, just like Broodwar did not attract the majority of gamers. We can do more to make it easier for new people to get into the game but when it comes down to it, it is a game that is tough to play and to improve at and a lot of people don't want that or are able to do that. I personally am fine with sc2 being a more elitist game that does not pander to everyone. As long as it is big enough to sustain an e-sports scene that e-sports scene does not have to be the biggest or the dominating one.
While ums might increase the player pool, the only way to really increase the player pool to compete with simpleton games like LoL is to dumb down the game severely and doing that would make it stop being the game that all of the rest of us want to play.
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Seems kinda unfair to compare a 60$ game to a free to play one and then assume they will have the same viewerbasis. There are so many people playing LoL because there is no entrybarrier.
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Wow Destiny is so spot on in that video. I agree with everything he said.
Some arguments I've heard against his point is that Brood War wasn't really casual friendly and it did fine with it's focus on the competitive side of the game.
What this argument fails to understand is that it only really did fine in terms of longevity in Korea. Outside of Korea MOST people stopped playing it except for readers like us who go to sites like Team Liquid.
Another area where that argument fails is that it doesn't take into account the fact that the gaming world has changed a lot since then. Remember back in the day when Doom had a tournament for a Ferrari? These days there is no way in hell that can happen, as the majority of gamers aren't looking for a game that is that hardcore. In the age of people playing games on Facebook and mobile phones/tablets, that type of game just can't attract the same amount of attention compared to something like League of Legends.
His analogy of VHS vs Beta was insightful. Right now SC2 is the Beta tape. League of Legends is VHS. Beta is far more technically advanced than VHS. SC2 is incredibly "beautiful" at the extreme competitive end of the game and metagame as Artosis puts it.
But that won't matter at all if something less beautiful, less technically advanced, but much more popular comes along.
And today games like LOL and DOTA2 are already here. Blizzard needs to realize this. It's not the same playing field as the Brood War days any more.
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I don't get the problem. So following the general development of the gaming scene everyone wants angry birds to be their esport of choice in the near future and well so be it - can't really change that anyways. I haven't stumbled over one idea on how the fuck Blizzard is supposed to come even remotely close to copying the general success of LoL and don't give me a couple ui changes and custom maps. It's just the right moment to accept that the times have changed and move on.
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On October 21 2012 10:19 tubs wrote:
Wow Destiny is so spot on in that video. I agree with everything he said.
Some arguments I've heard against his point is that Brood War wasn't really casual friendly and it did fine with it's focus on the competitive side of the game.
What this argument fails to understand is that it only really did fine in terms of longevity in Korea. Outside of Korea MOST people stopped playing it except for readers like us who go to sites like Team Liquid.
Another area where that argument fails is that it doesn't take into account the fact that the gaming world has changed a lot since then. Remember back in the day when Doom had a tournament for a Ferrari? These days there is no way in hell that can happen, as the majority of gamers aren't looking for a game that is that hardcore. In the age of people playing games on Facebook and mobile phones/tablets, that type of game just can't attract the same amount of attention compared to something like League of Legends.
His analogy of VHS vs Beta was insightful. Right now SC2 is the Beta tape. League of Legends is VHS. Beta is far more technically advanced than VHS. SC2 is incredibly "beautiful" at the extreme competitive end of the game and metagame as Artosis puts it.
But that won't matter at all if something less beautiful, less technically advanced, but much more popular comes along.
And today games like LOL and DOTA2 are already here. Blizzard needs to realize this. It's not the same playing field as the Brood War days any more.
Another thing to note that BW is pretty much more or less the same product model as LoL/DotA2 as it is essentially Free-to-Play.
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On October 21 2012 10:49 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both. A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth.
Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game.
I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2.
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Think of what happens when casuals play SC2:
1) they die to insanely strong and effective early all-ins
2) or they spend 15 minutes macroing only to lose their army in 6 seconds in a ball vs. ball engagement
Why would they come back and play this game?
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On October 21 2012 10:56 jdsowa wrote:
Think of what happens when casuals play SC2:
1) they die to insanely strong and effective early all-ins
2) or they spend 15 minutes macroing only to lose their army in 6 seconds in a ball vs. ball engagement
Why would they come back and play this game?
Pretty much. I absolutely love this game. Since I picked up SC2 no game has lasted more than a month, I always go back to SC2. But lets' face it, this game is hard as hell to play. I had some friends into it but after them repeatedly getting crushed in bronze league by 6pools and stupid stuff they just gave up, and I can't blame them. It is hard for SC2 to ever compare to LoL; I'm not really sure it can even be fixed.
On October 21 2012 09:47 Lazy8s wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 09:18 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 21 2012 09:07 Trumpstyle wrote:
Why play tennis when you can make more from Football, why do sponsors sponsor Tennis when Football is bigger?
Destiny argument is completely flaw. LoL will always be bigger because it's just easier for people control 1 unit instead were in Starcraft you need to micro units, handle economy it's just easier and more relaxing playing LoL. End of story. People play games to have fun. And if a game is easy and relaxing, people will be having fun. Destiny is right. The casual scene needs a lot of help in SC2. The Arcade needs to be completely re-done, the editor needs to be made easier to use so more people make Custom Games (I'd go back to map making if the editor was similar to WC3) and this will fuel the scene. And Blizzard needs to have a solid DOTA clone custom game for SC2. I agree with you, except custom games and arcade won't help the casual scene. SC2 is just a very, very hard game and LoL is not nearly as hard to play casually. Like others have said previously, I do not see how people playing custom maps casually translates into them watching pros play 1v1. Also, even custom games are hard. No matter what, he who is faster/micros better wins.
You might be surprised by how many league of legend players who only play low level normals and co-op vs AI watch progames. People like having idols, admiring people. Also, perhaps after a casual spends a month playing fun custom games, he becomes interested in playing the game for real? Really ... Just why do people think casuals don't matter. Do you think all the 500k+ viewers of League of Legends are aspiring progamers? Get real. [/QUOTE]
I didn't say they wanted to be pro gamers, I was arguing that you need casual players that can identify with what is streaming. People that play vs AI or just low lvl games with buddies in LoL feel like they are playing like the pros. In SC2 I do not know anyone that wants to just get on and play 1v1 against the AI.
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On October 21 2012 10:50 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 10:49 Gentso wrote:A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both. A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth. Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game. I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2.
Man this come off as so ignorant, you label league a simplistic game lacking any depth like 100 other people on TL here and don't even go into any detail because it's painfully obvious the most time you spent with the game was less than 30 minutes. Are you some expert who can make judgements or generalizations without providing any support as you have just done?
Gamers can't handle your game? That's you excuse for why SC2 can't attract players like LoL? Heh, I don't think this requires any refutation just reading the statement is enough to dismiss it immediately. I think the horrible trend you are noticing is that hardcore gamers have become a minority to casuals as games have become more popular with the mainstream; gamers themselves have not changed, it's not "they can't handle it", it's the majority of gamers are looking for something different than SC2 gasp. It's not realistic to think that someone coming into PC gaming for the first time is ready to devote all his time to SC2 to get to a level where he can even play the game. SC2 has done a terrible job creating an environment for casuals to enjoy, not "people can't handle the game" it's blizzard job to fix that.
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On October 21 2012 11:00 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 10:50 Gentso wrote:On October 21 2012 10:49 Gentso wrote:A game can have a casual and a "hardcore" side. Let's take super smash bros melee. It's a party game you can play with your friends, even my cousins and some of my younger sister's friends have had a ton of fun with it, without ever touching the game before that. It's very easy to pick up and play.
In addition to that, it's got incredible depth to it with things that most casuals would never even be aware of it. Now that might not be the most direct example but you don't need to make a game appear hardcore to be hardcore. You can have a game that's a fun party / family game on the surface but still have an incredibly deep, technical and detailed gameplay hidden within if you are good enough. You don't need to make the whole game casual. You don't need to make the whole game hardcore and impossible to get into. You can do both. A better example might be the custom maps but SSBM in my opinion is the most prime example of a casual party game with incredible depth. Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game. I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2. Man this come off as so ignorant, you label league a simplistic game lacking any depth like 100 other people on TL here and don't even go into any detail because it's painfully obvious the most time you spent with the game was less than 30 minutes. Are you some expert who can make judgements or generalizations without providing any support as you have just done? Gamers can't handle your game? That's you excuse for why SC2 can't attract players like LoL? Heh, I don't think this requires any refutation just reading the statement is enough to dismiss it immediately.
I will defend both of you here. First, LoL has a lot of depth at high-level play, so DonKey you are right there. That said, SC2 has a massive amount of depth/multi-tasking to play even in bronze league; I think that is what Gentso was (rightfully) saying. It is very hard for a casual player to stick with SC2 because the level of multitasking and sheer APM required is just phenomenal.
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I started off playing customs and single player in BW for years before eventually getting into 1v1. Casuals are the lifeblood of the scene and really need to be encouraged. Starting off RTS'ing in ranked 1v1 is not that appealing.
The Korean scene basically developed from grass-roots casual play (Hunters ffa's, FMP's and other non-ranked team games) so that there was a huge amount of support for the progamers once they emerged. SC2 and Blizzard seem to be trying to engineer the same phenomenon but are going the complete wrong way about it.
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A lot of you who never played BW don't seem to understand that literally 90% of the people playing it only touched maps like BGH (a 2v2v2v2 map) and UMS games.
There were literally entire communities devoted to some ums games like helms deep/bounds/diplo/snipers/etc/etc. Hell, I knew several people that exclusively played 3v3 Zero Clutter no rush map max the entire day. And keep in mind I didn't even play in BW's young days when even more people were on.
If Blizzard had some sense they would start working to fix this because anyone with a brain can see that sc2 will die at the rate things are going. It's just not a game that people want to come back to. They'll quit once and comeback a little while later and immediately realize why they quit and leave for good.
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On October 21 2012 11:42 Seiferz wrote:
A lot of you who never played BW don't seem to understand that literally 90% of the people playing it only touched maps like BGH (a 2v2v2v2 map) and UMS games.
There were literally entire communities devoted to some ums games like helms deep/bounds/diplo/snipers/etc/etc. Hell, I knew several people that exclusively played 3v3 Zero Clutter no rush map max the entire day. And keep in mind I didn't even play in BW's young days when even more people were on.
If Blizzard had some sense they would start working to fix this because anyone with a brain can see that sc2 will die at the rate things are going. It's just not a game that people want to come back to. They'll quit once and comeback a little while later and immediately realize why they quit and leave for good.
Diplo!!! That was my game for years!! Ah the nostalgia
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Can I remind people that the LoL prizes are divided among five players?
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EPT
