EPTHowever in reality how often do people really transition from custom and ums to 1v1? Nearly none of my friends have ever played 1v1 in rts games going all the way back to broodwar. They are just afraid of losing and they don't want that feeling so they play sc2 for ums. I can bet my life savings on that these guys will never ever play 1v1, there is a like a mental barrier there that makes it a completely different game. LoL is a much much easier game so most non competitive players can still enjoy it casually. You can't really make 1v1 sc2 easy to get into though without ruining the game itself. The good news is that all of these guys who play ums do watch competitive sc2. But they did not get into that through their interest in ums and customs, they got into that through people marketing sc2 as an e-sport too them. The game might attract a few more e-sport viewers by expanding the "casual" market but in reality the payback on investment will be 50 times greater if you invest that effort into e-sports productions, content and marketing instead.
Destiny: The Pro Scene Depends on the Casual Scene - Page 13
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
However in reality how often do people really transition from custom and ums to 1v1? Nearly none of my friends have ever played 1v1 in rts games going all the way back to broodwar. They are just afraid of losing and they don't want that feeling so they play sc2 for ums. I can bet my life savings on that these guys will never ever play 1v1, there is a like a mental barrier there that makes it a completely different game. LoL is a much much easier game so most non competitive players can still enjoy it casually. You can't really make 1v1 sc2 easy to get into though without ruining the game itself. The good news is that all of these guys who play ums do watch competitive sc2. But they did not get into that through their interest in ums and customs, they got into that through people marketing sc2 as an e-sport too them. The game might attract a few more e-sport viewers by expanding the "casual" market but in reality the payback on investment will be 50 times greater if you invest that effort into e-sports productions, content and marketing instead. | ||
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Urasim
United States83 Posts
On October 21 2012 12:28 Trufflez wrote: Can I remind people that the LoL prizes are divided among five players? http://leaguepedia.com/wiki/Season_2_World_Championship 1,000,000 dollars for the team that won. That's 200,000 dollars for each person on the team that won... MC, MVP, and NesTea made less then that in their entire Starcraft2 career, combined (From prize money; not including salaries). There are people who get 20,000 to 30,000 viewers daily. That's more then ALL the Starcraft2 streamers featured on TL during peak hours. Only time when Starcraft2 beats the individual LoL streams is when there is a tournament. Also, there is this which makes playing League of Legends that much more appealing. In season three, which is our next season, and it will follow our World Championships in October, the champion of the series, which is in a professional league, is going to have salaries. The salaries are there to cover the basic cost of living for players, and they’re going to be augmented by stipends that cover things like travel and housing, which is all meant to compliment the sponsor revenue players can make and the cash prizes for the tournament. All of that combined makes being a professional “League of Legends” player a viable career opportunity. This helps the game reach its full potential, because we want to avoid our pro players coming under financial stress and having to hold down part-time jobs. We want to make it so being a pro player is a completely viable career opportunity. http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/tech/post/_/id/1541/league-of-legends-esports-growing | ||
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Cranium
United States48 Posts
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On October 21 2012 13:23 Urasim wrote: http://leaguepedia.com/wiki/Season_2_World_Championship 1,000,000 dollars for the team that won. That's 200,000 dollars for each person on the team that won... MC, MVP, and NesTea made less then that in their entire Starcraft2 career, combined (From prize money; not including salaries). There are people who get 20,000 to 30,000 viewers daily. That's more then ALL the Starcraft2 streamers featured on TL during peak hours. Only time when Starcraft2 beats the individual LoL streams is when there is a tournament. Also, there is this which makes playing League of Legends that much more appealing. http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/tech/post/_/id/1541/league-of-legends-esports-growing NBA players and European Football players earn massively higher salaries than NHL players, both of the previous two sports also enjoy way higher viewer ratings, yet oddly enough people still play hockey. The world is funny sometimes. I hope that LoL keeps growing. I am convinced that LoL growing is beneficial to Starcraft 2. Anything that grows e-sports will be good for all popular e-sports games. Starcraft 2 pretty much built the current e-sports industry. Don't get me wrong there were e-sports in the west before sc2 but there was not a lucrative market. The market exploded with sc2 and the foundations were laid. Because of those foundations LoL was then able to get to where it is now. If Sc2 had not expanded the market and proved that e-sports could enjoy stable viewer numbers then LoL would not be growing now. Likewise the growth of LoL can be just as beneficial to Starcraft 2. Why is everyone so god damn afraid? People enjoy rts, and people enjoy moba's and people enjoy fps games. Just like some people enjoy hockey and some basketball. This notion that 100% of all good players will always play whichever game is currently playing the highest price money is just ridiculous. | ||
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Savagewood
United States84 Posts
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On October 21 2012 13:53 Savagewood wrote: Destiny is spot on here. I like SC2 much more than LoL (I play both) but LoL is more casual friendly, and that's why my friends stop playing SC2 and start playing LoL. Blizzard needs to do a better job getting casuals involved. Starcraft 2 is just not a casual kind of game, it can't be without losing the vast majority of the others who play it. Don't give me ums because that is not the same. 1v1 sc2 can't be as casual as LoL nor should it ever be. | ||
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Urasim
United States83 Posts
On October 21 2012 13:47 VanGarde wrote: NBA players and European Football players earn massively higher salaries than NHL players, both of the previous two sports also enjoy way higher viewer ratings, yet oddly enough people still play hockey. The world is funny sometimes. I hope that LoL keeps growing. I am convinced that LoL growing is beneficial to Starcraft 2. Anything that grows e-sports will be good for all popular e-sports games. Starcraft 2 pretty much built the current e-sports industry. Don't get me wrong there were e-sports in the west before sc2 but there was not a lucrative market. The market exploded with sc2 and the foundations were laid. Because of those foundations LoL was then able to get to where it is now. If Sc2 had not expanded the market and proved that e-sports could enjoy stable viewer numbers then LoL would not be growing now. Likewise the growth of LoL can be just as beneficial to Starcraft 2. Why is everyone so god damn afraid? You know what is even stranger? The viewer count for Starcraft2 tournaments have been declining but league of legends has been increasing. That's weird right? Can't believe you are comparing sports to a video game. With sports you just need friends and a ball, and they can be played at all ages and enjoyed by EVERYONE! While video games require expensive computers, expensive internet connections, and expensive games which most can't afford or even care about in the first place. Also, you can't play hockey year round, and you can't even play it at all in most areas around the world. Please stop trying to use analogies. | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On October 21 2012 13:58 Urasim wrote: You know what is even stranger? The viewer count for Starcraft2 tournaments have been declining but league of legends has been increasing. That's weird right? Can't believe you are comparing sports to a video game. With sports you just need friends and a ball, and they can be played at all ages and enjoyed by EVERYONE! While video games require expensive computers, expensive internet connections, and expensive games which most can't afford or even care about in the first place. Also, you can't play hockey year round, and you can't even play it at all in most areas around the world. Please stop trying to use analogies. The analogies are perfectly fitting, don't be intentionally dense by pointing out that sc2 is not hockey because you don't use a stick. That is the point of an analogy to draw similarities between things that can be related in some way but are not the same. The analogy is true because of the world operated the way you seem to think it does, all but the biggest sports would decline because the sponsors would choose NBA over NHL due to it's higher viewer count. I say that not all kids when they pick a sport do it based on how much money they can earn as a top tier professional, kids will play what they enjoy in fact most kids who are into sports play several sports and then eventually go for one of them. I am fairly certain that the same is true for games. Interesting though that you are soo caught up in this that you can acknowledge that sc2 numbers have declined but you are incapable of conceiving that LoL numbers could do the same. LoL is going through the same kind of expansion right now that Sc2 did two years ago, but somehow everyone believes that LoL clearly cannot possible be subject to the same kinds of trends. I guess the art of rational and objective thinking is just mostly lost on this generation. The growth of LoL is very clearly infinite. But yeah you are right, in a year there will be no sc2 tournaments, all of the pro's and all players will be playing LoL instead because you can earn a few hundred k more if you are the best player in the world. I guess the world was black and white after all who could have figured. Realize that it is important where viewers come from btw. There is a huge difference between LoL having 1 million viewers that used to view sc2 but switched to watching LoL. And LoL having 1 million new e-sports viewers that did not previously watch sc2. I think it is safe to say that most likely most of their viewers are new e-sports fans. They might have shared viewers with sc2 where you have people who watch sc2 and now also watch LoL. But there is not a problem unless viewers are actually switching games. If LoL gets 800k new e-sports fans to the scene that is great, we should welcome those because those 800k are now also potential sc2 viewers in the future. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17242 Posts
The principle reason for VHS winning was the tapes record an entire movie in 1 sitting with no one near the TV set to change tapes. The longest recording time for a "Betamax" was only 60 minutes. To record a movie somone would always have to be nearby to change the tapes. and then during play back on the "Sony Betamax" you'd have to switch tapes right in the middle of the movie. The way teh VHS and Betamax worked back in the 70s that was like a 30 second process of manual labour... you could not remotely change tapes.. you had to get off your chair and change these giant tapes. but anyway... On October 21 2012 13:58 Urasim wrote: . With sports you just need friends and a ball, and they can be played at all ages and enjoyed by EVERYONE! While video games require expensive computers, expensive internet connections, and expensive games which most can't afford or even care about in the first place. Also, you can't play hockey year round, and you can't even play it at all in most areas around the world. Please stop trying to use analogies. Hockey is more expensive to play than Starcraft2. the most profitable pro hockey team on the planet is hosted in a city where a far higher percentage of kids have a computer with a crappy 2 year old video card that can play Starcraft2. but they can't afford to play hockey. try again. NFL Football is 1 of the most popular and high paying sports and yet parents steer their kids away from it because of all the head injuries. Stating no one will play SC2 because it does not have some giant huge fan base is silly. Games like Intellivision Utopia, EA M.U.L.E. and EA NHL '94 Hockey have had a hard core competitive scene with a cult like following for DECADES with ZERO support from the publisher. i'll say that again for emphasis: DECADES  any time you're up for a game of Utopia i'll go over the pros and cons of a the Fishing Boat/Fort opening when your opponent goes early PT Boat. | ||
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Urasim
United States83 Posts
The point is that Starcraft2 will not die unless Blizzard kills it, but the competitive scene can and will die if the viewer base dies. Viewer base die > sponsors leave(can't make money without the viewers!) > can't send people to events > no tournament prize pools > no one is interested > the next game Blizzard makes isn't popular because the last one died > Starcraft dies as a RTS because Blizzard makes it a MMO to make money. | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On October 21 2012 14:46 Urasim wrote: Derailing like a champ, VanGarde. The point is that Starcraft2 will not die unless Blizzard kills it, but the competitive scene can and will die if the viewer base dies. Viewer base die > sponsors leave(can't make money without the viewers!) > can't send people to events > no tournament prize pools > no one is interested > the next game Blizzard makes isn't popular because the last one died > Starcraft dies as a RTS because Blizzard makes it a MMO to make money. Oh am I derailing the thread about competitive Starcraft where people are discussing differences between LoL and sc2 viewership by bringing up LoL and sc2 viewership? My exact point is that this entire notion that the viewer base is dying is completely grabbed out of think air. Starcraft 2 is doing just fine, e-sports as a whole has never been this huge and now LoL is broadening the scene even more. These are great times. The only thing that is bad for Starcraft is all off this retarded negative publicity brought on by these threads of headless chickens running around saying the sky is falling. If anything that is deterring to new casual players. TL is where people who are new to the game are often referred to for information, just how many new casual players are you attracting when they come here to find the general forum spammed with posts of people declaring the imminent death of the game? I wouldn't be surprised if those people turn around and go install LoL instead then. People see hundreds of thousands of LoL viewers as the apocalypse. I see it as hundreds of thousands of new e-sports fans, most of whom probably were not watching sc2 in the first place but now they might turn on MLG to watch LoL and end up getting attracted to Starcraft 2 as well. Publicity for one game is publicity for the other as long as these games appear at the same contests. | ||
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Urasim
United States83 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17242 Posts
On October 21 2012 15:07 Urasim wrote: Um, the topic is about LoL and Starcraft2, not football and hockey compared to starcraft2 and LoL... You are derailing. hey Champ, for clarity...here is the thread title Destiny: The Pro Scene Depends on the Casual Scene and in illustrating his point Destiny talks about things ranging from the 1975 "VCR War" all the way to the events occurring in 2012... leaving things WIDE OPEN for analogies. and Destiny's first analogy was incorrect. leaving things even more wide open. therefore, this thread could go in all kinds of directions. your hyper sensitivity to "derailing" is derailing this topic :D | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
I'm with Grubby on that. His take and Destiny's seem fairly similar on a number of points. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
LoL is a better game than SC2, its more fun to play, and the game is always fresh, because heroes are getting added all the time and strategies are always changing. I actually do think part of SC2's problem is how boring PvZ is. If you are going to invite a friend to spectate a match and its PvZ, hardly likely he's going to return to watch SC2. Actually every matchup besides TvZ and TvT is abysmal. LoL and Dota2 are improvements on the original game, but look at SC2, even a bronze level BW game is more fun to watch/play than SC2. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On October 21 2012 10:50 Gentso wrote: Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn and hard to master but League is not one of them. It's simplistic and lacking depth in all aspects. The game pretty much forces you to play the same way every time. There isn't much room at all for creativity. It's extremely hard to create these types of easy to learn and hard to master games, because there's a very fine line where people become frustrated and quit if they feel like they're not understanding or good enough at the game. I don't know, it's just this horrible trend I've been noticing lately that people won't play games that aren't easy and laid out for them. That's why I think SC2 can't possibly become much bigger, because gamers these days can't handle it. Not only that, I'll go so far as to say most gamers can't even get to a level to even comprehend broadcasts of SC2. That's a strange quote <.< But yes I'm not saying that League is like that, I'm just saying that you don't need to develop for exclusively something. SC2 doesn't exclusively need to be hardcore, for example. I know LoL has a lot of flaws as well, but honestly most people here really underestimate its depth without any real knowledge of how it actually works. Again I'll bring up SSBM, it's a very casual game that can be played super hardcore as well, that's how a game should be these days. You don't only need to do either casual or hardcore, you can do both | ||
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Gonzo103
Germany220 Posts
why i think sc2 has a problem: - ladder system is failing to understand psychological behavior of human beings your win/loss ratio is kept near 50 percent so you try your little heart out to win but at the end of the day you lost near the same amount of games you have won. it don't matter that your MMR is raising you don't feel it. this is frustrating. - reward system sucks i log on to the ladder play 10 game loose 7 going down in ranks and have nothing achieved. sure if you are competitive u will find flaws in your game play... more gg more skill ... but Joe schmoe lost his rank nothing more. this is frustrating again. - arcade mode not known enough most of my friends which own sc2 didn't even know about arcade. they played the campaign got stomped in placement matches and stopped playing. - b-net feels lonely. nothing more to say. Besides that i don't think the game should be more easy. and i don't think we should compare BW to much with SC 2. it was a complete different time. there was no Facebook there was no WoW there wasn't any Moba out there. Gamer are different nowadays. it's a new generation. | ||
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tonychan
New Zealand6 Posts
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