|
On October 20 2012 11:50 Mackus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 11:33 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 11:29 vertigo1 wrote:
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW).
i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams. i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch. No SC2 is fun to play, shit to watch.... Posturing around a 200/200 army VIA SupCom style is pretty fun to watch. But unlike SupCom, the army clumps which gives you no fucking ideas ideas about the intricacies in the battles. Because 45 minute matches with 30 minutes downtime between each match is extremely entertaining right? That was the LoL World Championships for you. If you think SC2 is boring to watch I recommend you get involved watching the Korean scene, I don't watch the foreigners they're boring to watch except from Stephano and Lucifron On viewer numbers the LoL finals peaked 990k meanwhile WCS Asia was live and only peaked 10k.
Well Idk man, at least LoL is action packed with stuff happening all over the place. SC2 is just two balls getting gradually bigger and bigger until the inevitable clash into GG.
|
|
|
Once again steven is completely spot on, seriously if blizz just had him in charge of everything the state of the game would be so unreal
|
On October 20 2012 11:52 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 11:50 Mackus wrote:On October 20 2012 11:33 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 11:29 vertigo1 wrote:
eh official figures are roughly 11 million for LOL. But that still makes it the market leader (as it beats WOW).
i made an acct and played about 3 days and uninstalled it
if they have 11 million why do their stream numbers normally only double sc2? whats the biggest concurrent number for a tournament they had?
this concerns me as well. having said that the world finals had something between 600k and a million viewers if you include the chinese and korean streams. i guess personal streams have less viewers because LoL is shit to watch, fun to play sc2 is shit to play, fun to watch. No SC2 is fun to play, shit to watch.... Posturing around a 200/200 army VIA SupCom style is pretty fun to watch. But unlike SupCom, the army clumps which gives you no fucking ideas ideas about the intricacies in the battles. Because 45 minute matches with 30 minutes downtime between each match is extremely entertaining right? That was the LoL World Championships for you. If you think SC2 is boring to watch I recommend you get involved watching the Korean scene, I don't watch the foreigners they're boring to watch except from Stephano and Lucifron On viewer numbers the LoL finals peaked 990k meanwhile WCS Asia was live and only peaked 10k. Well Idk man, at least LoL is action packed with stuff happening all over the place. SC2 is just two balls getting gradually bigger and bigger until the inevitable clash into GG.
That is not true in the slightest, have you watched high level LoL? There might be a lot happening in LoL at lower levels because players making mistakes causes a lot of back and fourth. But at the top level players don't make mistakes because the laning phase is just so easy. Instead of death balls it is just two sides of heroes posturing against each other trying to out creep the other and unless anyone makes a huge mistake, no one is going to die for a long time. Not to mention the fact that since there are three lanes and a jungle you will only be seeing one fifth of what is going on at any given time.
|
On October 20 2012 11:50 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 11:46 pmp10 wrote:
Just more fear-mongering from Destiny.
I don't get it how can this community be so insecure that a success of any other e-sport game must automatically mean the end of this one.
For over a decade various games coexisted in competitive scene but now it seems Destiny declared that there can be only one. I don't get how you can be so naive, ignorant, and spiteful... Did you even read the post originally put forth? Did you watch that video in the OP of this thread? Do you have a learning disability, or are you just pretending you understand English? Destiny's point was NOT that LoL is going to kill SC2...he's saying that if Blizzard doesn't take lessons from what LoL has done right, SC2 is going to get left behind and die a slow death while other games continue to grow. WHOA, sorry. Did I just make you look stupid?
Sadly I've seen all that drivel that Destiny had to say on the subject and the point stands.
The idea the SC2 can be a good casual experience is utter nonsense only beaten in ignorance by the notion that you should ape solutions made for completely different audience and formula.
The only point with any sort of validity is that pros and casters have become detached from typical viewer in their wants and needs (more name changes will save SC2) but then not even Destiny would take into consideration that health-bars may be detracting to casuals in viewing experience and now he throws the first stone.
|
So all these sponsors suddenly don't have enough money to sponsor across multiple games / platforms / teams anymore? I don't understand his reasoning, If it was as "spot on" as people like to say then why are there still sponsors hanging around sc2? They should of all abandoned ship a long time ago considering LoL has been trumping everything in stream numbers for quite a while now.
I don't understand this notion that , "If its not the biggest , its gonna die" which seems to be what it boils down to. Nothing has shown that to be the case. Unless someone wants to point me towards a company that has outright said "hey all that money we were putting in to Dota / sc2 / ect ect, we're stopping that so we can put it in LoL exculsively", I could of very well missed an announcement like that, I won't claim to know everything, so if that has happened please enlighten me.
This isn't highlander, as much as some drama queens would like to claim otherwise. There is enough room for a lot of scenes to grow.
|
Destiny is obviously biased on his opinion in the LoL vs SC2 debate.
For one he says something to the extent of why would someone want to make 100k in an SC2 tournament when they could win million dollar tournaments in LoL. There has only been one LoL tournament that awarded a million dollars to first at the end of the season(like Dota 2), and you have to remember it's split between at least 5 people on your team, possibly more. I would even lean to SC2 having more tournaments than LoL currently. LoL also clearly has a younger demographic than SC2, whereas Destiny claims that theyr'e one in the same. Also trying to claim 95% of SC2 people don't give a fuck about it's professional status or meta game feels like another exaggeration.
The only thing he's accurate on is numbers = sponsorship/salaries/prize pool, and I don't think anyone ever claimed or thought SC2 would be competitive in numbers with LoL, he's just stating the obvious on this. It's a free to play game made so a 10 year old can be ranked in the top 5% vs a game you have to purchase that people can play for years and not master. Not to mention we all know Blizzard is likely to never push their games for the competitive scene, in fact they impede some tournaments by requiring them to sign a contract with Blizzard when the prize pool is over 5k. Where as Riot has been throwing money at the scene, i.e. buying the expedition slot at Dreamhack to get their foot in the door last year, and doing whatever they can to force themselves into esports. So I don't see how any of this is news, I'm pretty sure anyone not new to the scene knew where SC2 stands.
|
Based on this discussion, and my past love for WC3 Dota, I just tried out LoL to see how "fun" it really is... was not impressed at all, never playing again. Will try out Dota 2 to see if it's any better...
|
On October 20 2012 12:06 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 11:50 PH wrote:On October 20 2012 11:46 pmp10 wrote:
Just more fear-mongering from Destiny.
I don't get it how can this community be so insecure that a success of any other e-sport game must automatically mean the end of this one.
For over a decade various games coexisted in competitive scene but now it seems Destiny declared that there can be only one. I don't get how you can be so naive, ignorant, and spiteful... Did you even read the post originally put forth? Did you watch that video in the OP of this thread? Do you have a learning disability, or are you just pretending you understand English? Destiny's point was NOT that LoL is going to kill SC2...he's saying that if Blizzard doesn't take lessons from what LoL has done right, SC2 is going to get left behind and die a slow death while other games continue to grow. WHOA, sorry. Did I just make you look stupid? Sadly I've seen all that drivel that Destiny had to say on the subject and the point stands. The idea the SC2 can be a good casual experience is utter nonsense only beaten in ignorance by the notion that you should ape solutions made for completely different audience and formula. The only point with any sort of validity is that pros and casters have become detached from typical viewer in their wants and needs (more name changes will save SC2) but then not even Destiny would take into consideration that health-bars may be detracting to casuals in viewing experience and now he throws the first stone.
There's no good reasoning backing your statements. I've played like six 1v1 ladder games in SC2 in the last ten months. I have a friend who logs like twenty hours a week in the game just from playing Gem TD while at work.
Why is LoL's audience different from SC2's? Why can't things that work for Riot be things Blizzard can think about? You see...you hate Destiny, you misunderstood it, and now that you've been shown to be wrong, I think you're just making shit up to try to wriggle out of the pickle you're in.
What Destiny said, whatever you may think of him, makes sense. It's reasonable. What you say is full of holes and is filled with assumptions that are impossible to immediately accept.
The point I think you're trying to make (your last two posts don't say much of anything except that Destiny is wrong) is that SC2 doesn't need to change, that we're fine as we are, and that LoL's success both will have no affect on us and that we can learn nothing from it. Is that correct? If not, then I'm sorry, I can only work from what you've written down, I can't extract information directly from your mind.
If you feel that way, then you're wrong. I don't know what else to tell you. SC2 isn't great, HotS looks like shit. The scene is not stable and definitely needs help, and we can ALWAYS learn from the successes of others, ESPECIALLY a game like LoL, which has two key similarities: 1. IT'S A FUCKING COMPUTER GAME, and 2. IT'S BEING PROMOTED AS AN ESPORT.
Different formulas? Different audiences? What the fuck kind of a point are you even trying to make? I'm going to assume you never played BW, because I'd be shocked if you did. See...before the awful shithole that bnet 2.0 is came to be, and before the mediocrity manifested that is SC2 was released, we had this cool game called BW, and this online multiplayer client called Bnet. When you looked at the games being hosted and played on Bnet, which you could get to with one click of the mouse, something like 20% of the games played were actual 1v1 melee games. That's probably being generous. It was likely closer to 10%, if that. Everything else was team games, UMS, and FMPs. It was largely casual players playing all those games. That kept the community alive, it kept people online, and it kept the game fun. Even on iCCup, we'd host UMS maps to unwind after ladder games or intense practice sessions.
We don't need to force people who don't like to ladder into laddering. We don't need to somehow magically revitalize the ladder. People who want to play 1v1 seriously will do it on their own. Those who don't won't, and they shouldn't be coerced into doing it.
Despite that, we need to keep people interested in the game, and it needs to stay relevant. What better way than to keep the game as a UMS hub, just as BW was? Blizzard put in very robust tools for mapmakers to make all kinds of shit, from RPGs to FPSs all in-game. Shit, we even have Bejeweled in SC2. The game doesn't need to be kept alive solely through people actually playing ladder.
I follow the pro scene very closely, and I've been following it for years. I was way past seriously playing BW when SC2 came out, and I'm pretty much over playing that one too. Despite that, I still follow the scene. I guess you could call me a "casual", at this point. While the scene is fortunate in that I will never stop being a viewer because of how long I've been attached to this community, other casuals may not be in such a spot.
All Destiny is saying is to keep SC2 relevant for as many people as possible. He's not saying to compromise the competitive 1v1 aspect of SC2, he's saying to make the UMS, casual side side more robust. If you disagree with that, then you're just being spiteful, and you're shitting on Destiny, not his argument (which, btw, is a logical fallacy).
|
Destiny is so right, Him and Grubby have their shit together, and want to save the game.
|
On October 20 2012 12:58 PH wrote:
[...]
Different formulas? Different audiences? What the fuck kind of a point are you even trying to make?
[...]
Despite that, we need to keep people interested in the game, and it needs to stay relevant. What better way than to keep the game as a UMS hub, just as BW was? Blizzard put in very robust tools for mapmakers to make all kinds of shit, from RPGs to FPSs all in-game. Shit, we even have Bejeweled in SC2. The game doesn't need to be kept alive solely through people actually playing ladder.
[...]
All Destiny is saying is to keep SC2 relevant for as many people as possible. He's not saying to compromise the competitive 1v1 aspect of SC2, he's saying to make the UMS, casual side side more robust.
[...]
In bullet points then:
- SC2 has a hardcore audience (this community for instance) with nostalgia and expectations (mostly derived from BW) that make it impossible to compromise with needs of casual audience
- expectations of gamers have changed since BW and it's impossible to keep that audience attention with minor changes to SC2 or BW formula (UMS ect.)
- LOL and DOTA belong to different genre and cannot be beaten in the level of ease of access or casual appeal
- trying to make SC2 appeal to a casual audience will be at best unsuccessful or at worst will drive away hardcore supporters
|
On October 20 2012 12:15 Leth0 wrote:
So all these sponsors suddenly don't have enough money to sponsor across multiple games / platforms / teams anymore? I don't understand his reasoning, If it was as "spot on" as people like to say then why are there still sponsors hanging around sc2? They should of all abandoned ship a long time ago considering LoL has been trumping everything in stream numbers for quite a while now.
I don't understand this notion that , "If its not the biggest , its gonna die" which seems to be what it boils down to. Nothing has shown that to be the case. Unless someone wants to point me towards a company that has outright said "hey all that money we were putting in to Dota / sc2 / ect ect, we're stopping that so we can put it in LoL exculsively", I could of very well missed an announcement like that, I won't claim to know everything, so if that has happened please enlighten me.
This isn't highlander, as much as some drama queens would like to claim otherwise. There is enough room for a lot of scenes to grow.
The major problem as I see it is Korea. I think everyone knows that SC2 isn't catching on but I read that the situation is quite dire. If big sponsors start backing LoL in Korea, I don't see many Starcraft 2 progamers staying with the game and not switching to LoL. Korea as a culture is very trend oriented.
|
On October 21 2012 07:23 singularity14 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 12:15 Leth0 wrote:
So all these sponsors suddenly don't have enough money to sponsor across multiple games / platforms / teams anymore? I don't understand his reasoning, If it was as "spot on" as people like to say then why are there still sponsors hanging around sc2? They should of all abandoned ship a long time ago considering LoL has been trumping everything in stream numbers for quite a while now.
I don't understand this notion that , "If its not the biggest , its gonna die" which seems to be what it boils down to. Nothing has shown that to be the case. Unless someone wants to point me towards a company that has outright said "hey all that money we were putting in to Dota / sc2 / ect ect, we're stopping that so we can put it in LoL exculsively", I could of very well missed an announcement like that, I won't claim to know everything, so if that has happened please enlighten me.
This isn't highlander, as much as some drama queens would like to claim otherwise. There is enough room for a lot of scenes to grow. The major problem as I see it is Korea. I think everyone knows that SC2 isn't catching on but I read that the situation is quite dire. If big sponsors start backing LoL in Korea, I don't see many Starcraft 2 progamers staying with the game and not switching to LoL. Korea as a culture is very trend oriented.
CJ, Kespa team along with KT Rolster already have their own LoL division teams. So yes, big sponsors already have LoL's back.
And LoL's Chinese presence is strong too. Tencent, the third most used internet domain behind Google and Amazon have the publish right for LoL in China. There, the scene is even bigger than Korea.
|
100% agreed, LoL is going towards the right direction and looks like the best thing for esports atm
|
Destiny is absolutely right. The problem with the game is that it's just not very casual and losing is very degrading. It's all about who's better and winning than having fun. What's worse is that to have fun you either need to be good at the mechanics of the game or you need to play someone who isn't as good as you or just as good as you. There is always a loser in the game. You can't have a technical winner because they enjoyed the time they spent ultimately losing. In a game where you lose to Marauder proxies and Zealot Proxies that you really can't stop unless you know for a fact they are there and are happening, how can you really expect any sort of fun?
The Arcade is the real only casual gaming location in SC2 because the actual game is so hyper competitive. If want to have fun with this game and I'm trying to, but when the game is imaged by professional play and balanced based off of professionals rather than aesthetics/casual gaming then you're only inviting professionals who play the game for 15 hours a day as their profession. So SC2 really isn't much of a game to be honest, it's more like a job and casuals are the people being held back in High School because their APM isn't above 100.
|
On October 21 2012 07:28 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 07:23 singularity14 wrote:On October 20 2012 12:15 Leth0 wrote:
So all these sponsors suddenly don't have enough money to sponsor across multiple games / platforms / teams anymore? I don't understand his reasoning, If it was as "spot on" as people like to say then why are there still sponsors hanging around sc2? They should of all abandoned ship a long time ago considering LoL has been trumping everything in stream numbers for quite a while now.
I don't understand this notion that , "If its not the biggest , its gonna die" which seems to be what it boils down to. Nothing has shown that to be the case. Unless someone wants to point me towards a company that has outright said "hey all that money we were putting in to Dota / sc2 / ect ect, we're stopping that so we can put it in LoL exculsively", I could of very well missed an announcement like that, I won't claim to know everything, so if that has happened please enlighten me.
This isn't highlander, as much as some drama queens would like to claim otherwise. There is enough room for a lot of scenes to grow. The major problem as I see it is Korea. I think everyone knows that SC2 isn't catching on but I read that the situation is quite dire. If big sponsors start backing LoL in Korea, I don't see many Starcraft 2 progamers staying with the game and not switching to LoL. Korea as a culture is very trend oriented. CJ, Kespa team along with KT Rolster already have their own LoL division teams. So yes, big sponsors already have LoL's back. And LoL's Chinese presence is strong too. Tencent, the third most used internet domain behind Google and Amazon have the publish right for LoL in China. There, the scene is even bigger than Korea.
LG-IM, MVP, and StarTale also have teams. More and more people are switching over.
|
sc2 is not popular in SingApore anyway. I am just playing cause I enjoy the challenge. But will probably switch to mmorpg. DOTA types of game are just too boring to me. The skill cap as an individual is pretty low for LOL, but team play makes things more interesting. I guess that is why it appeal to so many people. You cant go against the change of tides. Just play what you like. the funds in gaming are almost always imaginary. Kids don't earn much, there are no balance of funds. Advertisement will never earn you enough.
|
On October 21 2012 08:08 Zaurus wrote:
sc2 is not popular in SingApore anyway. I am just playing cause I enjoy the challenge. But will probably switch to mmorpg. DOTA types of game are just too boring.
So you would rather grind....that's kind of not exciting imo. Unless the one you want try have crazy PvP action.
|
On October 21 2012 08:10 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 08:08 Zaurus wrote:
sc2 is not popular in SingApore anyway. I am just playing cause I enjoy the challenge. But will probably switch to mmorpg. DOTA types of game are just too boring. So you would rather grind....that's kind of not exciting imo. Unless the one you want try have crazy PvP action.
Mmorpg is not just about grinding. Is about socializing while teaming up and joking about stuffs.
|
On October 21 2012 07:56 Jasiwel wrote:
Destiny is absolutely right. The problem with the game is that it's just not very casual and losing is very degrading. It's all about who's better and winning than having fun. What's worse is that to have fun you either need to be good at the mechanics of the game or you need to play someone who isn't as good as you or just as good as you. There is always a loser in the game. You can't have a technical winner because they enjoyed the time they spent ultimately losing. In a game where you lose to Marauder proxies and Zealot Proxies that you really can't stop unless you know for a fact they are there and are happening, how can you really expect any sort of fun?
The Arcade is the real only casual gaming location in SC2 because the actual game is so hyper competitive. If want to have fun with this game and I'm trying to, but when the game is imaged by professional play and balanced based off of professionals rather than aesthetics/casual gaming then you're only inviting professionals who play the game for 15 hours a day as their profession. So SC2 really isn't much of a game to be honest, it's more like a job and casuals are the people being held back in High School because their APM isn't above 100.
I totally agree, but also I wonder, even if Sc2's UI and arcade were fixed so that people could enjoy customs more, would that really make people watch SC2's standard 1v1 multiplayer more? It just seems like two completely different things. I mean for SC Brood war I remember playing 2v2v2v2 BGH, the money maps, evolves and bunker wars when I was a kid, but that didn't translate into me watching brood war matches, I couldn't care less about that because I didn't play it, wasn't good at it, and it was kind of off my radar in general.
The reason people love LoL, most likely, is that the fundamental game itself is really fun. There are no customs (that I'm aware of) with LoL - its just the game that people love, so its a much more natural path that they would also enjoy watching pro-gamers play a game that they love. I can't see the direct link between playing customs in SC2 and watching standard SC2...I mean maybe they'll be willing to try to play standard once in a while because hey its right there, but I remember for Brood War how terrible I was, and decided there's just no reason to try again (even a few years later).
Edit: Anyway that's probably a bit of a tangent, its just another of Destiny's posts was mainly about customs and that's what a lot of people are complaining about. I agree though, SC2 actually needs to be fun to play and not scary 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
