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On October 08 2013 09:59 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 09:52 Xiphos wrote:On October 08 2013 09:44 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 08 2013 09:36 Xiphos wrote:On October 08 2013 09:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 08 2013 09:20 Xiphos wrote:On October 08 2013 08:53 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 08 2013 08:37 Xiphos wrote:
^Honestly, after Artosis, Tasteless, and Day[9] immediately ditched BW to seek more fame and receive more money from SC2 is the moment I don't give any crap about them anymore regardless of they may say.
Peoples needs to realize that majority of the people are selfish and greedy. They would do anything for cash or to spread their names and quit being naive. I've learned it the hard way with BW to SC2 transition. Fuck this whole "passion" persona when more money is involved. where do you get off accusing of them switching for fame and money? sc2 was a new game. almost everyone who played sc:bw switched to sc2 because of the fact that it was a new game that everyone was waiting for. Except for Kespa players. And don't give me bullshit because of Kespa restriction. Look at MVP, ZergBong, and Iron. They switched right after SC2's release. i fail to see the relevance. none of that shows that tastosis and day9 went to sc2 for fame and money rather than them just switching to the newest hit from blizzard. its not terribly surprising that players under contract with kespa and making salaries stayed with the game that paid their salaries. It may surprise you but Tastosis and Day9 constantly bashes SC2 and praise BW but they put their poker face on and plowed ahead in games. Tasteless just don't give any crap. I prefer Apollo much better than him. Day9 said "I just miss how fun BW is..." on baseball vs Frisbee analogy video of SC2 vs BW but yet never really try to grow the scene. Think logically, why would they want to be a place where they rather not to be in the first place? Well money is definitely a good source of motivation and....well....fame as non-Koreans plays more SC2 than BW! you have an interesting sense of "proof." they moved on and, apparently, so should you. I take that as a concession. i imagine you would.
That just about solidifies it.
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On October 08 2013 09:59 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 09:53 Plansix wrote:On October 08 2013 09:46 Zaqwe wrote:On October 08 2013 09:39 Plansix wrote:On October 08 2013 09:36 Zaqwe wrote:On October 08 2013 09:34 Plansix wrote:On October 08 2013 09:31 Zaqwe wrote:On October 08 2013 09:28 Plansix wrote:On October 08 2013 09:21 Zaqwe wrote:On October 08 2013 09:15 Plansix wrote:
Please, the old boys club put in their time and made themselves what they are. Tastless, for example, has shown no SC2 knowledge whatsoever. He didn't seem to play at all even shortly after launch. He did not do any research on players, or have any knowledge relevant to casting. He doesn't really seem to do anything, other than collect paycheques and solicit "donations" for his friends. On October 08 2013 09:15 Plansix wrote:
And the movie is coming out at Blizzcon from all reports. The lack of updates sucked, but lets not go nuts here and just pitchfork everyone because you don't like that they are successful. All reports? One tweet from their manager, not explicitly saying so but actually being vague? Is there anything else? Please, are you kidding me. Your just on the hate train now. The bias reeks off you. I can get being upset about the Kickstarter, everyone hasn't gotten what they wanted. But claiming that Artosis and Tasteless are money grubbing assholes that hate the community is just a pile of horse shit. I always know I am right when people start throwing out strawmen. That means my actual views are so completely accurate and unassailable you have to make things up like claiming I said they "hate the community". Why would they hate the goose that lays the golden egg? You are so desperate to attack me you are fabricating absurdities. I don't really have logical arguments with people who say "Tastetosis are just greedy an in it for the money." As my father always said, "don't argue with drunks or fools". Your just on the hate train, son. Don't matter how many times you use the word "stawman". To paraphrase an old saying: "If you have nothing logical to say, don't say it at all." Your post count is not a currency. It doesn't change the fact that you are set on hating Artosis and Tasteless and any attempt to convince you otherwise will not change your mind. Any effort I make to have a ration discussion will be wasted. You are not here to discuss things, you are here to hate on Artosis and Tasteless. My post count has little to do with it. You are here because you want to hate on them and argue with people who defend them. Nothing will change that. Nothing I have said is factually inaccurate. I gave my opinion and provided a logical basis for how I formed my opinion. You are welcome to disagree, but strawmen and fake "quotations" don't seem to add to the conversation. Although correct, you are using the same argument that every troll and hater makes. 1:Nothing I have said is factually incorrect, even if I cherry pick my facts to suit my argument 2[ Its my opinion and I am entitled to it, even if it angers people 3: I have the right to discuss stuff and you calling me out on being overwhelming negative and ignoring peoples counter points doesn't "add" to the discussion Your opinion is your own and you are entitled to it. Just like I am entitled to my opinion of your arguments and that they are terrible, poorly thought out and use cherry picked facts and quotes. Just like you are entitled to voice your opinion on Tasteless and Artosis, I can voice mine as well. You haven't really said a word in defense of Tasteless and Artosis. You have only attempted to attack me (using strawmen and fake quotes, as my logic seems sound). It's a fallacy to think attacking me personally somehow can invalidate my opinion. An opinion is just that. The examples I gave which helped form my opinion are real and valid. It would be more productive if you gave counter examples, or explained why you think so highly of them.
I think they are great casters and have provided me with quality entertainment for nearly 3 years. Artosis clearly cares about the scene and runs a weekly show about SC2, featuring players from all sections of the world. Tasteless clearly has other hobbies(like trying to beat battletoads), but its working on designing a headset and keyboard with Artosis and TT-esports. They are two professionals who never get mixed up in drama(with the exception of this kickstarter) and they do nothing but good things for the scene. The minor examples you have provided did nothing to change this opinion. I respect them for what they do, how they ignore the haters and just do a good job day after day.
And finally, its not a fallacy point out person's motivations for their arguments. Even if they manage to sprinkle a few facts, it does not make their opinion automatically "valid". Opinions are no "valid" or "invalid", they are just opinions and an expression of personal taste.
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On October 08 2013 10:01 coolcor wrote:Show nested quote +So.. where on earth does the "casters make big money" meme come from, exactly? I think this was one of the first times the community got the idea that casters make big money. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290205¤tpage=9#162Posted by incontrol responding to fxoboss Show nested quote +Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters? There have been other hints but I'm not going to look them all up so I hope I'm not misremembering. Idra once said on a show that he did not like day9 because he pretends to be poor for donations from fans when he is in fact rich. Tasteless said in his real talk with jp that he was successful and living in one of the more expensive parts of the city for wealthy. TB once posted on teamliquid that he was making 2500k for one MLG weekend, but that it wasn't that much because he could make much more from videos he could be posting on youtube instead, Maybe Sundance talking about how tastosis won't be at MLG because they are asking to much. I think that's everything. Of note is that tasteless's EMG manager guy and husky have also appeared on a talk show to say that the casters are getting payed far to little compared to what they could be making in other industries, and should have their salaries raised. (And if the tournaments can't afford to pay them more with the viewercounts they get they are doing their business horribly wrong) And of course I agree that your examples of rotti and Kaelaris are probably getting payed a lot less then these guys are.
Thank you, that was actually informative. 
20k for a Dreamhack weekend sure is a lot of money, but that sounds like the extreme end of caster earnings for me, and I fear that a lot of people think that Artosis is making 20k for everything he casts now. I highly doubt that he's making 20k for GSL casts, for instance. 2.5k for an MLG weekend sounds a lot more realistic to me, and that's where I assumed the "average well known caster" is situated at.
So I suppose one could say that the very top casters (Which would be Artosis and.. well, nobody else, really, since Tasteless pretty much only does GSL) do earn a lot more money than the average player. Which is.. entirely reasonable? I really do not see anything bad with that statement.
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Germany25649 Posts
I am locking this thread because it mutated into a weird Caster/SC2 bashing thing or something.
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Germany25649 Posts
Unlocking. Please try to keep the debate focused on Sons of Starcraft, not on Caster/SC2 bashing.
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On October 08 2013 10:01 coolcor wrote:Show nested quote +So.. where on earth does the "casters make big money" meme come from, exactly? I can clear this up! I think this was one of the first times the community got the idea that casters make big money. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=290205¤tpage=9#162Posted by incontrol responding to fxoboss Show nested quote +Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters? There have been other hints but I'm not going to look them all up so I hope I'm not misremembering. Idra once said on a show that he did not like day9 because he pretends to be poor for donations from fans when he is in fact rich. Tasteless said in his real talk with jp that he was successful and living in one of the more expensive parts of the city for wealthy. TB once posted on teamliquid that he was making 2500 for one MLG weekend, but that it wasn't that much because he could make much more from videos he could be posting on youtube instead, Maybe Sundance talking about how tastosis won't be at MLG because they are asking to much. I think that's everything. Of note is that tasteless's EMG manager guy and husky have also appeared on a talk show to say that the casters are getting payed far to little compared to what they could be making in other industries, and should have their salaries raised. (And if the tournaments can't afford to pay them more with the viewercounts they get they are doing their business horribly wrong) And of course I agree that your examples of rotti and Kaelaris are probably getting payed a lot less then these guys are.
Heh, I remember that Incontrol post. The hilarious thing about it is that the tournament in question didn't pay me at all. I even paid for my own travel and accommodation. I got VoD rights, that was it.
The EMG management is right by the way. I was told the same thing by some of the game publishers I've worked with in the industry, that my original appearance fee was far too little. Some insisted on raising it because they "wouldn't feel right" paying me as little as SC2 events do. There is a reason why broadcast personalities are paid the way they are, because they can command an audience. I don't want this to seem like I'm bragging but compare Acer Teamstory Cup when I cast vs when other English commentators cast it. Look at the numbers. Millenium vs Mousesports last week, 10k concurrents, 13,940 unique live viewers, 10,470 unique VoD viewers. Even with the most popular teams, ATC is getting anywhere between 1/4th and half that with other casters. Popular casters have audiences that can bring value to the event, an absurd amount of value in some cases, that's why they get paid. After all, viewers aren't customers, they are the product, tournaments sell the viewers to the advertisers and that's how they afford to run the event. If a caster can bring in more viewers, he will be paid more for it, assuming he is savvy enough to ask for that.
That's how the industry works and that's how ALL broadcast industries work. If you have the ability to bring in an audience of your own then that's one of the most valuable things you can possibly do.
I've never been paid "what I'm worth (according to industry people)" by a Starcraft 2 event and I imagine very few ever have been.
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On October 09 2013 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I've never been paid "what I'm worth (according to industry people)" by a Starcraft 2 event and I imagine very few ever have been.
Just out of curiosity is this an SC2 thing? Or an eSports thing?
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It's an industry thing and I'm not shocked by those numbers. It's funny that people bring up Tasteless because for those unaware.. how do you think Tasteless got his first gig? It was all about TL donations & support to send Tasteless to do the WCG English cast for Brood War because no one else was going to give the game a fair shake. He saw Wheat needed help and never looked back. Now that's what I call capitalizing on opportunity. Stay long enough in the biz and you'll earn certain benefits.
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On October 09 2013 01:47 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I've never been paid "what I'm worth (according to industry people)" by a Starcraft 2 event and I imagine very few ever have been. Just out of curiosity is this an SC2 thing? Or an eSports thing?
I couldn't tell you honestly, because the only other "eSports" casting I've been doing was for Planetside and for Shootmania which were both essentially promo events. Both paid better than Starcraft has though.
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Tasteless has been casting professionally in Korea for 6 years. I'd fucking hope that he's getting paid pretty decent money, people are talking like they're getting sudden windfalls of money for being popular. That might have been the case for someone like...Husky for example (TB as well, but TB does a lot more work with other shit).
But the casters who are making money are people who have been working in the scene and doing that shit on some level for over half a decade at least, and have been in the scene for the decade. All the power in the world to casters who are making the type of wage you should expect for a 5-year professional broadcaster, and tough fucking luck to the hundreds of non-superstar pros who thought that playing a video game professionally was going to be a consistent and viable career.
Of course Day9 makes good money. Is it maybe a little dishonest that he asks for donations? Up to you, but it's your fucking money to do what you want with it. It would be stupid of you to think that Sean acts like that everywhere. 'Day9' is a professional persona, just like 'Tasteless' is, just like 'Artosis' is. Stephen Colbert isn't really a republican, guys. No, they're not totally fucking different in real life, but they're professionals. You don't have to look very far to see what happens to people who don't understand how to present themselves professionally. Greg Fields lost his job because he was IdrA in too many places other than on camera. InControl has multiple personality disorder and doesn't know if he wants to be professional or not. These people [casters] are finding success in the scene because they know how to market themselves, they've worked hard to get there, and as far as the divide between casters and players, they worked hard at something that was going to pay the fucking bills.
In any other niche (sports, news, whatever), broadcasters that draw the type of audience that people like TB, Tastosis, Apollo, Day9, etc. would be making seven figure wages a year. It's not a fucking travesty that they're able to pull a six-figure professional's wage considering that it's a group of a dozen people that represent the entire god damn scene.
EDIT: Also TB pls go on Retsupurae more <3
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I really, REALLY dont care for this caster money thing, I want to know what happened to the documentary, and specially why no one has said a word about it.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On October 09 2013 02:45 -Kaiser- wrote:
Tasteless has been casting professionally in Korea for 6 years. I'd fucking hope that he's getting paid pretty decent money, people are talking like they're getting sudden windfalls of money for being popular. That might have been the case for someone like...Husky for example (TB as well, but TB does a lot more work with other shit).
But the casters who are making money are people who have been working in the scene and doing that shit on some level for over half a decade at least, and have been in the scene for the decade. All the power in the world to casters who are making the type of wage you should expect for a 5-year professional broadcaster, and tough fucking luck to the hundreds of non-superstar pros who thought that playing a video game professionally was going to be a consistent and viable career.
Of course Day9 makes good money. Is it maybe a little dishonest that he asks for donations? Up to you, but it's your fucking money to do what you want with it. It would be stupid of you to think that Sean acts like that everywhere. 'Day9' is a professional persona, just like 'Tasteless' is, just like 'Artosis' is. Stephen Colbert isn't really a republican, guys. No, they're not totally fucking different in real life, but they're professionals. You don't have to look very far to see what happens to people who don't understand how to present themselves professionally. Greg Fields lost his job because he was IdrA in too many places other than on camera. InControl has multiple personality disorder and doesn't know if he wants to be professional or not. These people [casters] are finding success in the scene because they know how to market themselves, they've worked hard to get there, and as far as the divide between casters and players, they worked hard at something that was going to pay the fucking bills.
In any other niche (sports, news, whatever), broadcasters that draw the type of audience that people like TB, Tastosis, Apollo, Day9, etc. would be making seven figure wages a year. It's not a fucking travesty that they're able to pull a six-figure professional's wage considering that it's a group of a dozen people that represent the entire god damn scene.
EDIT: Also TB pls go on Retsupurae more <3
I don't know if I want to be a professional or not? What? LOL
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On October 09 2013 03:22 theBlues wrote:
I really, REALLY dont care for this caster money thing, I want to know what happened to the documentary, and specially why no one has said a word about it.
Hey we got that fluff update a few weeks back.
Oh and as an update to the address/email thing a few pagrs back i goy obto tumba via reddit and he's changed it for me. Yaaaaaaay minor positives!
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On October 09 2013 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 02:45 -Kaiser- wrote:
Tasteless has been casting professionally in Korea for 6 years. I'd fucking hope that he's getting paid pretty decent money, people are talking like they're getting sudden windfalls of money for being popular. That might have been the case for someone like...Husky for example (TB as well, but TB does a lot more work with other shit).
But the casters who are making money are people who have been working in the scene and doing that shit on some level for over half a decade at least, and have been in the scene for the decade. All the power in the world to casters who are making the type of wage you should expect for a 5-year professional broadcaster, and tough fucking luck to the hundreds of non-superstar pros who thought that playing a video game professionally was going to be a consistent and viable career.
Of course Day9 makes good money. Is it maybe a little dishonest that he asks for donations? Up to you, but it's your fucking money to do what you want with it. It would be stupid of you to think that Sean acts like that everywhere. 'Day9' is a professional persona, just like 'Tasteless' is, just like 'Artosis' is. Stephen Colbert isn't really a republican, guys. No, they're not totally fucking different in real life, but they're professionals. You don't have to look very far to see what happens to people who don't understand how to present themselves professionally. Greg Fields lost his job because he was IdrA in too many places other than on camera. InControl has multiple personality disorder and doesn't know if he wants to be professional or not. These people [casters] are finding success in the scene because they know how to market themselves, they've worked hard to get there, and as far as the divide between casters and players, they worked hard at something that was going to pay the fucking bills.
In any other niche (sports, news, whatever), broadcasters that draw the type of audience that people like TB, Tastosis, Apollo, Day9, etc. would be making seven figure wages a year. It's not a fucking travesty that they're able to pull a six-figure professional's wage considering that it's a group of a dozen people that represent the entire god damn scene.
EDIT: Also TB pls go on Retsupurae more <3 I don't know if I want to be a professional or not? What? LOL
Well, there where a lot of times were you weren't as professional as you claimed to be...does that sound better?
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On October 09 2013 02:28 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 01:47 Wuster wrote:On October 09 2013 01:19 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I've never been paid "what I'm worth (according to industry people)" by a Starcraft 2 event and I imagine very few ever have been. Just out of curiosity is this an SC2 thing? Or an eSports thing? I couldn't tell you honestly, because the only other "eSports" casting I've been doing was for Planetside and for Shootmania which were both essentially promo events. Both paid better than Starcraft has though.
In hopes of getting an answer; As someone who is not involved in the esports scene I have no clue where the money is actually coming from (price money, salaries for players/casters). As far as i see it the only incentive to blow money into the industry is because of advertisement and personally i do not think it is worth it for many companies to sponsor things in esports. (Obviously IT IS actually worth it or no concern would be doing it but i do not understand why advertisement on this platform is worth so much, are other platforms [TV,posters whatever] simply more expensive per ad - impression ?)
Another thing is playerstreams; if Dreamhack is paying 20k for a caster for one weekend; shouldnt lol streamers easily be able to make 6 figures annualy with their 40k+ viewers.
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Everyones jimmies are getting rustled lately...
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This thread. What's going on?
Seriously this is the most off topic thread ever with random peolpe calling out Incontrol, TB etc.. stfu.
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On October 09 2013 03:24 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 02:45 -Kaiser- wrote:
Tasteless has been casting professionally in Korea for 6 years. I'd fucking hope that he's getting paid pretty decent money, people are talking like they're getting sudden windfalls of money for being popular. That might have been the case for someone like...Husky for example (TB as well, but TB does a lot more work with other shit).
But the casters who are making money are people who have been working in the scene and doing that shit on some level for over half a decade at least, and have been in the scene for the decade. All the power in the world to casters who are making the type of wage you should expect for a 5-year professional broadcaster, and tough fucking luck to the hundreds of non-superstar pros who thought that playing a video game professionally was going to be a consistent and viable career.
Of course Day9 makes good money. Is it maybe a little dishonest that he asks for donations? Up to you, but it's your fucking money to do what you want with it. It would be stupid of you to think that Sean acts like that everywhere. 'Day9' is a professional persona, just like 'Tasteless' is, just like 'Artosis' is. Stephen Colbert isn't really a republican, guys. No, they're not totally fucking different in real life, but they're professionals. You don't have to look very far to see what happens to people who don't understand how to present themselves professionally. Greg Fields lost his job because he was IdrA in too many places other than on camera. InControl has multiple personality disorder and doesn't know if he wants to be professional or not. These people [casters] are finding success in the scene because they know how to market themselves, they've worked hard to get there, and as far as the divide between casters and players, they worked hard at something that was going to pay the fucking bills.
In any other niche (sports, news, whatever), broadcasters that draw the type of audience that people like TB, Tastosis, Apollo, Day9, etc. would be making seven figure wages a year. It's not a fucking travesty that they're able to pull a six-figure professional's wage considering that it's a group of a dozen people that represent the entire god damn scene.
EDIT: Also TB pls go on Retsupurae more <3 I don't know if I want to be a professional or not? What? LOL
Yes. You swing between extremes pretty hard. I can watch you casting Dreamhack or whatever in a suit and acting like a stand-up guy, and then go to the forums and you're in a retarded flamewar with someone acting like a jackass. You're famously really terrible at your own personal PR so to speak. You can be a great ambassador for eSports in front of the camera and do a lot of great things behind the scene Monday Wednesday Friday. but Tuesday Thursday you can be completely juvenile on an informal stream or something.
TB sort of has the same issue where he can't help but chime in on anything that mentions, but personality wise he still acts like more or the less the same brit, so there's not really a disconnect between what's "actively presented" and how he acts otherwise (otherwise being shit like forums and chats, etc). You come off as a professional when you're getting paid and a frat boy when you're not.
EDIT:
The reason this is relevant at all is because the problem that's happened with Sons of Starcraft is that a bunch of professional people hyped it up and asked for people to pay for it, but it's been handled unprofessionally since the kickstarter. There's a big gap between how professional our eSports ambassadors are presented, and whether or not they can be trusted to behave and handle things professionally outside of their sponsored appearances.
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Ok folks. This is not the thread for caster bashing or criticism. I am guilty of dragging it down that road before, but we should likely get back on subject.
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I am opening an Ebay Buyer Protection Case at once!
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EPT
